Devious Devices - Integration 4.3a (2019-09-10)

[Kimy]

9 hours ago, galgat said:

They reuse AA animations in combination with others to create new sets of animations, resulting in an invisible difference that's not shown in FNiS or by counting the amount of animation files.

We do no such thing. We add animations in the same way any other adds them - in the FNIS definition files. Open them and look at what we're doing. There is no "hidden" stuff in there. Period.

9 hours ago, galgat said:

 EDIT >>> which in reality show's that DDI4.1 adds over 2842 animations with this new release. Up from only 1025 in DDI 4.0

I might point out that several people have CONFIRMED DD to show -exactly- its expected footprint in 4.1. We do NOT add 1600 new animations, hidden or otherwise. We've added less than 300. You and some others have reported an issue that's not normal behavior, and I believe you that you have that issue. But I don't know why you are basically indicating some sort of sinister play on our end when a) the mod is confirmed to work perfectly well and as expected for many users and b) neither you nor I nor anyone else has the slightest idea at this time what's causing your problem. So can you PLEASE stop suggesting that we somehow caused that problem on purpose or knowingly, so we can try figuring out what's actually happening?

[galgat]

34 minutes ago, Kimy said:

We do no such thing. We add animations in the same way any other adds them - in the FNIS definition files. Open them and look at what we're doing. There is no "hidden" stuff in there. Period.

I might point out that several people have CONFIRMED DD to show -exactly- its expected footprint in 4.1. We do NOT add 1600 new animations, hidden or otherwise. We've added less than 300. You and some others have reported an issue that's not normal behavior, and I believe you that you have that issue. But I don't know why you are basically indicating some sort of sinister play on our end when a) the mod is confirmed to work perfectly well and as expected for many users and b) neither you nor I nor anyone else has the slightest idea at this time what's causing your problem. So can you PLEASE stop suggesting that we somehow caused that problem on purpose or knowingly, so we can try figuring out what's actually happening?

   It is troubling, losing so many animations from according to my figures 217 added animations in ddi4.1.

 

 1025 animations total in DDI4.0, and I suddenly drop from running 11803 animations to only being able to run 10400.

 

 ( I am actually running DDI4.1 with 10278 animations right now, and no Mods that use it, that was just to get it to run. )

 
  Having to reduce my animation or rather the only real place I can reduce them by removing 1525 animations by dropping zaz 8, and a slew of SLAL Packs just to play the New DDI4.1

 

many Mods are requiring Zaz 8.  if I install it to play those mods, I will pretty much have to drop every SLAL pack I have to run DDI4.1.

 

  That is where I am at.

 

  EDIT >> Why then is there such a big difference in the animations i can use from DDI4.0 to DDI4.1

[Nazzzgul666]

1 hour ago, galgat said:

   You truly miss the point, 11803 animations playable with DDI4.0, 10400 animations playable with DDI4.1.

 

This may be true, but you're missing the point not less: this doesn't necessarily has anything to do with the number of animations added. In fact, for all we know the same might happen without adding a single animation, just by adding scripts or maybe even just attaching existing scripts to animations, furnitures, NPCs or whatever. Nobody knows. The same might happen if you add a dialogue overhaul or anything. Or the other way around: removing pretty much any other mod might increase the number of animations still working.

Fores statement indicates that's the case.

So you're pretty much complaining that the DD-team has a lack of a chrystal ball to forecast the future, something they probably agree on but complaining won't help. 

 

However, in terms of good researchers we all somewhat are imho, it's intresting (if i got that right) that the dev version did not reduce the possible amount of animations but the official release did. Maybe the team could make some educated guesses what changed between latest dev and official version and discuss this with fore or somebody who has a better insight of how Skyrim works, not sure if the author of crash fixes for example is still around. In the end we all would be happy to figure it out, and maybe even get some hack to work around that limit?

 

'edit: Just wanted to add this: even without trying but just reading the changelog, imho you did a great job and deserve a little champagne. I'd not even be jealous if you had a chrystal ball (well, at least only a bit ) to get you the next numbers for the lottery.

[Supertin]

54 minutes ago, galgat said:

   You truly miss the point, 11803 animations playable with DDI4.0, 10400 animations playable with DDI4.1.

 

The FNIS count is off, so we can not manage our animations well, as the FNIS read out is not correctly counting them.

 

    I have not a problem with the addition of animation's.

 

      But i do have a problem with not being able to know where my limit is.  And the New DDI has very much changed that limit ( some how ).  So where will that limit be when you add your next update. will it drop to 9000, 7000, 6000. I need to have something to work with here, so I can try to adjust my load order to comply with what ever changes you all intend to make.

 

   I hope I can still run Sex lab when you are done it has 1203 animations in it.

I did not miss any point.  *facepalm*

 

The Fnis count is not off. Fnis is correctly counting animations. Facts. There is no point in discussing facts.

 

As you might have noticed the limit can be wildly different for each person depending on their load order. This doesn't only take into account animations or behaviour files, this takes into account -everything- until the exact reasons are known. They are -not- known yet.

 

Your suggestion of us adding animations that somehow have a heavier impact than other people's/mod's animations is ludicrous. You keep equating the ~200 animations in 4.1 to a loss of 1400+ animations, so each animation we added had about SEVEN TIMES the impact of other animations according to you. Even without any knowledge about animations, behaviour or literally anything, it should be obvious that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

The effect you are seeing doesn't just boil down to animations, there are many other factors that could have lead to you running into a CTD issue after updating to 4.1. You keep pretending as if animations are the only variable in play leading to you encountering a breaking point. They are not.

[galgat]

5 minutes ago, Supertin said:

I did not miss any point.  *facepalm*

 

The Fnis count is not off. Fnis is correctly counting animations. Facts. There is no point in discussing facts.

 

As you might have noticed the limit can be wildly different for each person depending on their load order. This doesn't only take into account animations or behaviour files, this takes into account -everything- until the exact reasons are known. They are -not- known yet.

 

Your suggestion of us adding animations that somehow have a heavier impact than other people's/mod's animations is ludicrous. You keep equating the ~200 animations in 4.1 to a loss of 1400+ animations, so each animation we added had about SEVEN TIMES the impact of other animations according to you. Even without any knowledge about animations, behaviour or literally anything, it should be obvious that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

The effect you are seeing doesn't just boil down to animations, there are many other factors that could have lead to you running into a CTD issue after updating to 4.1. You keep pretending as if animations are the only variable in play leading to you encountering a breaking point. They are not.

   There is no Pretending, I fail to load DDI4.1 if I have more than 10400 animation files. I do load DDI4.0 with 11803 animations files. What part of that is pretending ?

[Kimy]

7 hours ago, galgat said:

  EDIT >> Why then is there such a big difference in the animations i can use from DDI4.0 to DDI4.1

If I would know, I'd tell you. As Fore said, it's complicated. There is no such thing as a hard animation count limit, and nobody except Beth knows what the engine is actually doing. I do NOT KNOW why you "lose" so many animations when other people do not. As long as you can't provide any evidence of an actual issue in DD4.1, I'd assume it's an instance of Skyrim being Skyrim.

 

/re ZAP 8, I said already that I view people's continued ability to install both ZAP 8 and DD in the same load order highly skeptical. Mods shouldn't set dependencies on BOTH, if they want users to still be able to play their work in a year from now on. It's a waste of people's resources to ask them to install both. This has nothing to do with your particular problem, though.

[Nazzzgul666]

11 minutes ago, galgat said:

   There is no Pretending, I fail to load DDI4.1 if I have more than 10400 animation files. I do load DDI4.0 with 11803 animations files. What part of that is pretending ?

The part where you pretend to know the reason. You don't, nobody else does. If you figure it out and are able to explain, everybody will be happy. But i'm pretty sure invisible animations that FNIS can't count are not a possible option.

[galgat]

 

Nazzzgul666

  I can only see the AA as the only solution, it is a better Idea than I have seen added here so far. I know they are suppose to have little or no effect on the animation count, but they are the only thing that makes sense to me as the possible cause.

 

   I do not know, and so far no one else has gave and answer that is truly right. Mine is a good a place to start as any.  I had to reduce my animation by over 1500 to run DDI4.1. Which only adds 217 actual animations. Why then, give me a solid answer, and don't start with that a lot of things can cause X to happen.

 

   I have played Skyrim far long enough to know this, but same profile, same mod's, except for having to reduce animations mods by over 1500 for DDI4.1. and yet  217 animations by my count cost me over 1500 animations to play using DDI4.1.

 

   But with DDI4.0 I can add back the 1500 animations, and play with out problem.

[galgat]

13 minutes ago, Kimy said:

If I would know, I'd tell you. As Fore said, it's complicated. There is no such thing as a hard animation count limit, and nobody except Beth knows what the engine is actually doing. I do NOT KNOW why you "lose" so many animations when other people do not. As long as you can't provide any evidence of an actual issue in DD4.1, I'd assume it's an instance of Skyrim being Skyrim.

 

/re ZAP 8, I said already that I view people's continued ability to install both ZAP 8 and DD in the same load order highly skeptical. Mods shouldn't set dependencies on BOTH, if they want users to still be able to play their work in a year from now on. This has nothing to do with your particular problem, though.

   I understand all this, and I really appreciate your kind response I know you all think I am being a pain, and i am truly sorry, but I have worked hard to give all the Idea's and information I can, in the hope that you all Might find a solution.

 

   I am over all just trying to help, and looking for help in this matter, and nothing else. I love DDI, I want it to do good. I just right now am having a problem, I can not understand, and was wanting to give you all the Idea's, and information I could.

[Nazzzgul666]

11 minutes ago, galgat said:

Why then, give me a solid answer, and don't start with that a lot of things can cause X to happen.

 

Well, i'm lacking a chrystal ball as well. And the patience to sit down and reverse engineer Skyrim. But that i don't know which of a lot of things that can cause X to happen it is doesn't make it less true. I understand and -more or less  - appretiate your efforts to find a solution, but insisting on invisible uncountable animations is the point where it isn't really helpful anymore.

[Reesewow]

37 minutes ago, galgat said:

   I understand all this, and I really appreciate your kind response I know you all think I am being a pain, and i am truly sorry, but I have worked hard to give all the Idea's and information I can, in the hope that you all Might find a solution.

 

   I am over all just trying to help, and looking for help in this matter, and nothing else. I love DDI, I want it to do good. I just right now am having a problem, I can not understand, and was wanting to give you all the Idea's, and information I could.

The problem is *nobody* understands the problem enough to give you the answer you want.  Nobody here can tell you *why* exactly you are seeing the behavior you are reporting.  The best people like Fore and Nazzzgul can do is try to help you understand some of the *possible* reasons why a computer program like Skyrim would have issues like this at the extremes we are taking it.

 

I do think the information you have provided is useful to the dev team and possibly will give someone an idea on what is going on down the road, but spamming the thread for answers that nobody can give you isn't that helpful unless you have more information to provide.  If you manage to find a way to get more animations to load with 4.1, or find out that another mod in your load order combined with DD 4.1 is making the problem much worse, that info would be most welcome. 

 

I would say that random guesses about what is happening, even well intentioned, are not helpful.  The last thing people trying to help in the troubleshooting forums need is others reading these ideas and taking them as hard facts - meaning we later have to try to explain what is actually happening over and over.

[t.ara]

3 hours ago, Nazzzgul666 said:

Not sure about ZAP 8 +, but ZAP 8 doesn't have a single one according to FNIS. So... as far as i can say, galgat is just wrong, at least with his direction.

 

For animations, well, you probably know more about that than me but to me it seems you're forgetting some. There are all the furnitures like chair, working bench,... plus, "dragon" is not an animation. "Dragon flying" is one, "Dragon biting" is one, "Dragon getting killed" is... more than one since there are several.^^ At least that's how FNIS counts afaik.  My guess would be that the original game has something like 10k animations already, and if the 12k limit is right, they might have just doubled the number they had to make it avaivable for mods. Same for script counts - there is a limit of about 65k and Skyrim plus all DLCs use around 32k. 

And at first glance that doesn't sound totally insane or evil to me - considering the size of Skyrim, all the NPCs, items, locations, quests, dialogues,... i can understand the assumption that doubling that in size should be enough for a second playthrough. Don't forget that you can just uninstall all the mods and install some different, again doubling Skyrim in size and have a new experience.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying i'm totally fine with all the restrictions. What i'm saying is that i can understand it, and if i'd been the developer it might have happened the pretty much same way. 

My guess is that they never considered any big frameworks at all. I.e. mods that add a lot of stuff without doing anything on it's own, needing other mods. And that these frameworks might work nicely together. One or two of them (Sexlab + ZAP for example) - still works fine. Add DD, the amputation framework, PCEA and one or two fighting overhauls... well. Or rather not well anymore. But honestly without beeing a fanboy of Bethesda, it's really hard to blame them for that mistake imho, or even call them evil for not considering that, because at least i can't say for sure that i would have done it better.

If you are able to create mods, that do suit to the overall game-mechanics and who don´t "rape" papyrus, the stuff will work without any problem. You need ingame always animations, if for example your character want to sit-down....sleep, swim, drink while sitting, standing - face animation is merged with idles and so on and so on (btw. furnitures need always animations). FNIS should not count existing vanilla animations! -that would be a real FAIL. Best for FNIS is here (and it does so), to count the new "IDLES" that are coming by mods. The overview of mostly all idle- animations of skyrim I put one site before, about 2K completely. I can´t see any mistake of bethesda. Some mods like to bend skyrim to be a very different game and that´s simply not working without problems.

 

 

 

[galgat]

1 hour ago, Reesewow said:

The problem is *nobody* understands the problem enough to give you the answer you want.  Nobody here can tell you *why* exactly you are seeing the behavior you are reporting.  The best people like Fore and Nazzzgul can do is try to help you understand some of the *possible* reasons why a computer program like Skyrim would have issues like this at the extremes we are taking it.

 

I do think the information you have provided is useful to the dev team and possibly will give someone an idea on what is going on down the road, but spamming the thread for answers that nobody can give you isn't that helpful unless you have more information to provide.  If you manage to find a way to get more animations to load with 4.1, or find out that another mod in your load order combined with DD 4.1 is making the problem much worse, that info would be most welcome. 

 

I would say that random guesses about what is happening, even well intentioned, are not helpful.  The last thing people trying to help in the troubleshooting forums need is others reading these ideas and taking them as hard facts - meaning we later have to try to explain what is actually happening over and over.

  Fine then if nothing is useful then I guess the thread is a bust, we can only report what we see.

[asdfasdf883]

I need help with bound idle animations. Whenever I change cells the animation breaks and the characters hands go to her sides in the idle rather than her back or in a yoke. 

[Pfiffy]

6 minutes ago, asdfasdf883 said:

I need help with bound idle animations. Whenever I change cells the animation breaks and the characters hands go to her sides in the idle rather than her back or in a yoke. 

using Sexy move?

[asdfasdf883]

2 minutes ago, Pfiffy said:

using Sexy move?

I had the files installed but the ESP is not enabled.

[Reesewow]

1 minute ago, asdfasdf883 said:

I had the files installed but the ESP is not enabled.

Someone mentioned some versions of Slaverun may be breaking animations due to a crawling animation - if you have that installed try uninstalling it and see if you still have issues.

[Pfiffy]

5 hours ago, galgat said:

   You truly miss the point, 11803 animations playable with DDI4.0, 10400 animations playable with DDI4.1.

 

The FNIS count is off, so we can not manage our animations well, as the FNIS read out is not correctly counting them.

 

    I have not a problem with the addition of animation's.

 

      But i do have a problem with not being able to know where my limit is.  And the New DDI has very much changed that limit ( some how ).  So where will that limit be when you add your next update. will it drop to 9000, 7000, 6000. I need to have something to work with here, so I can try to adjust my load order to comply with what ever changes you all intend to make.

 

   I hope I can still run Sex lab when you are done it has 1203 animations in it.

The answer to this question is simple: Noone knows exatly how Animations, Scripts, Models or NPC's added by a mod count into that. The only thing that is for sure right now is: the easiest way to get out of a CTD on load after installing a mod that is known to be ok is to remove anims.  

   

[asdfasdf883]

10 minutes ago, Reesewow said:

Someone mentioned some versions of Slaverun may be breaking animations due to a crawling animation - if you have that installed try uninstalling it and see if you still have issues.

That worked, thanks.

[Pfiffy]

11 minutes ago, asdfasdf883 said:

I had the files installed but the ESP is not enabled.

I had that problem in the SE versions, and i could be solved by simple doing edits in the sexy moves MCM (It simply has to do an internal update). It was a bit strage, to see females without Devices equipped sometimes switching to Bunny hopping, and restrained NPC'S switching to standard idles or movements....

[Kimy]

SexyMove had a bug that broke NPC AA. Fore and I worked it out, it should be fixed eventually.

[WaxenFigure]

The facts that Fore can load a whole lot more animations into his game than so many other people AND that the number of animations people start having trouble with varies tells us several things:

 

• There IS a limited resource and exceeding it is fatal.
•  
• The limit of animations that can be added seems to be variable.
•  
• Loading other mods that do not contain animations seems to lower the number of animations that can be added.
•  
• The limit is therefore not a specific count of animations that can be added.
•  
• The limit then must be a memory resource.
•  
• Animations are not the only objects placed into that memory resource.

 

Our efforts are probably best spent examining the various mods we have that allow us to check memory usage and that alter memory handling, memory sizes etc to see it there is a way we can increase the "limit".

[Nazzzgul666]

2 hours ago, t.ara said:

If you are able to create mods, that do suit to the overall game-mechanics and who don´t "rape" papyrus, the stuff will work without any problem. You need ingame always animations, if for example your character want to sit-down....sleep, swim, drink while sitting, standing - face animation is merged with idles and so on and so on (btw. furnitures need always animations). FNIS should not count existing vanilla animations! -that would be a real FAIL. Best for FNIS is here (and it does so), to count the new "IDLES" that are coming by mods. The overview of mostly all idle- animations of skyrim I put one site before, about 2K completely. I can´t see any mistake of bethesda. Some mods like to bend skyrim to be a very different game and that´s simply not working without problems.

 

 

 

I was still refering to your question about "why limits" - and wanted to show you that the devs at Beth adding them were neither retarded nor evil.  At least not by default, i have my thoughts about their limit for string counts but even that can be explained at least.^^

Just mentioned that if FNIS would count the vanilla animations, it probably would come up with similar or even higher numbers than it's possible to add via mods. Not suggesting it should dig in and do so.

[ttpt]

18 hours ago, ragnam said:

seleceted default both choices
ddi 4.0 
Reading DD V4.0.0  ( 0 furniture, 0 offset, 0 paired, 0 kill, 0 chair, 472 alternate animations) ...
Reading DD2 V4.0.0  ( 0 furniture, 0 offset, 0 paired, 0 kill, 0 chair, 330 alternate animations) ...
Reading DDSL V4.0.0 ...

ddi 4.1
Reading DD V4.0.0  ( 0 furniture, 0 offset, 0 paired, 0 kill, 0 chair, 493 alternate animations) ...
Reading DD2 V4.0.0  ( 0 furniture, 0 offset, 0 paired, 0 kill, 0 chair, 330 alternate animations) ...
Reading DD3 V4.1.0  ( 0 furniture, 0 offset, 0 paired, 0 kill, 0 chair, 102 alternate animations) ...
Reading DDSL V4.0.0 ...

 

increased 122 alternate animations

---
totals
4.0 was
Alternate Animation mods: 6 sets: 75 total groups: 255 added file slots: 2386 alternate files: 1544
 9305 animations for 49 mods successfully included (character)
 1612 animations for 5 mods and 38 creatures successfully included.

4.1 is
Alternate Animation mods: 7 sets: 89 total groups: 353 added file slots: 3163 alternate files: 1667
 9522 animations for 50 mods successfully included (character)
 1612 animations for 5 mods and 38 creatures successfully included.

 

------
I see it as a 700 ish increase to added file slots     alternate animations increased just 123

added 14 new groups
added 100 total groups ? total groups of what does this mean? 
added file slots: 700ish << Q. what are file slots? that was the largest jump
700 is a huge number, 

so if I selected the choices default, it went up 123 alternate animations with 700 animation files or slots they take up in like SL ?
can someone explain what added file slots are?

 

That 777 increase in added file slots is exactly what I get too, would like to know what they are too since that seems like the biggest jump.

 

Also of note, I can add slal packs to my existing 4.0 installation and easily add over 300 animations and my game will load fine, but the added file slots field doesn't go up.

 

Another observation, if I run FNIS with 4.0 installed, then switch from 4.0 to 4.1 in MO and launch my game, it will also load just fine, I'm sure it'll be missing the new animations added by 4.1 since I didn't run FNIS, but it doesn't appear to be an .esp issue either.

 

But the conclusion is that there is something going on with regards to animations, but it's doesn't appear to be a too many animation issue, or too many plugins issue. Could easily be a too many added file slots issue?

]

[DonQuiWho]

2 hours ago, ttpt said:

 

That 777 increase in added file slots is exactly what I get too, would like to know what they are too since that seems like the biggest jump.

 

Also of note, I can add slal packs to my existing 4.0 installation and easily add over 300 animations and my game will load fine, but the added file slots field doesn't go up.

 

Another observation, if I run FNIS with 4.0 installed, then switch from 4.0 to 4.1 in MO and launch my game, it will also load just fine, I'm sure it'll be missing the new animations added by 4.1 since I didn't run FNIS, but it doesn't appear to be an .esp issue either.

 

But the conclusion is that there is something going on with regards to animations, but it's doesn't appear to be a too many animation issue, or too many plugins issue. Could easily be a too many added file slots issue?

]

Forgive my potential irritation and cynicism, but welcome to last week, even allowing for variation in how you actually should read that AA row of text/numbers

 

EDIT:  On reflection, that was probably a bit harsh.  I prefer not to run off and delete stuff after having sinned - that's the coward's option - so please accept my apologies for having been a bit tetchy