Devious Devices - Integration 4.3a (2019-09-10)

[El_Duderino]

8 minutes ago, MrEsturk said:

If it helps here are the animations that break. They will play the proper restrainted animations for a brief moment, then revert to the default player animations the first time DD polls and stay that way to I reload a save:

The only thing I can think of right now (but which I've seen happen in my game) is when you have another mod active that uses FNIS AA sets to set those anims for the player char. In my case it was FNIS SM that, when triggered to refresh after a cell change as per its script, wiped the DD anims.

[Reesewow]

1 minute ago, El_Duderino said:

The only thing I can think of right now (but which I've seen happen in my game) is when you have another mod active that uses FNIS AA sets to set those anims for the player char. In my case it was FNIS SM that, when triggered to refresh after a cell change as per its script, wiped the DD anims.

Sexy Moves definitely gets a bit weird if you update DD while it is running - for me directly after updating to 4.1 my PC and followers were using snippets of random DD walks such as the Breast Bondage and Pony walk animations instead of Sexy Move animations.  I found that resetting the PC sexy walk by toggling "use 360 walks" off and on and using the manual dialogue debug option to reset my follower's walks fixed this issue for me and I haven't had issues since.

 

Not sure if this is related to MrEsturk's issue however.

[galgat]

2 minutes ago, El_Duderino said:

That's quite simple, because there are many items that wouldn't work at all (or would look a lot less convincing) without Alternate Animations. Currently, alternate anims are used for: armbinder (& straitjacket), elbowbinder, yoke, handcuffs (& prisoner chains), breast bondage yoke, pony walk boots, pet suit, hobble dress. That's some of the coolest devices in DD, and without FNIS AA, several of these would be impossible to create.

 

It's as Kimy said, people sadly need to make decisions about which mods they really want to use as DD and others of our favorite kinky mods keep growing. In the case of DD, those decisions extend to beyond Loverslab and folks might have to choose whether they want to use (for example) PCEA or DD in their playthrough if they also have other mods that use FNIS AA.

   If what your saying is true I am looking at 2842 animation by DDI, and 1600 of them are hidden, and what exactly do you mean by alternate animation, that FNIS does not count ? but still count against your animation limit ?

 

   What all have you piled into this.. that is a lion's share of animation, and a crippling blow to a lot of us.  There won't be any real room left over for anything, and the only place you can cull animations will be the Adult animations, which are probably the most prized, and give the most randomness to the story's, and quest's that Adult's play.

 

   Seems like and awfully lot of resource take by a resource. what is left for the modder's is going to be slim pickings.

[MrEsturk]

5 minutes ago, El_Duderino said:

The only thing I can think of right now (but which I've seen happen in my game) is when you have another mod active that uses FNIS AA sets to set those anims for the player char. In my case it was FNIS SM that, when triggered to refresh after a cell change as per its script, wiped the DD anims.

Ok, I've isolated that it is a conflicting mod from a list of suspects (disabling them all fixed the glitch). Now the fun of figuring out which one is causing it. I swear modding Skyrim sometimes feels like being locked in an abusive relationship...

[ttpt]

3 minutes ago, galgat said:

   If what your saying is true I am looking at 2842 animation by DDI, and 1600 of them are hidden, and what exactly do you mean by alternate animation, that FNIS does not count ? but still count against your animation limit ?

 

   What all have you piled into this.. that is a lion's share of animation, and a crippling blow to a lot of us.  There won't be any real room left over for anything, and the only place you can cull animations will be the Adult animations, which are probably the most prized, and give the most randomness to the story's, and quest's that Adult's play.

 

   Seems like and awfully lot of resource take by a resource. what is left for the modder's is going to be slim pickings.

The alternate animations, roughly as I understand them, replaces for example your walk and run animation with, well, an alternate walk animation temporarily, for when you're in an arm bound animation, so it will hold your arms in place instead of playing the normal swing your arms from side to side animation. I believe FNIS sexy walk uses the same idea and I believe served as  a proof of the concept. Like I mentioned in my earlier post, I have the same situation as you in that I can run an overall higher number of animation with 40 than with 41, but AA seem to be the culprit.

 

Like I can see why DD uses it for its stuff since it seems pretty neat for that purpose, but I'm also with you in that it uses seemingly way too many. For now I'm probably gonna stick to 4.0 and see when other mods update and see if they require 41 or not and make decisions based on that.

[Guest]

Tbh its not an ideal situation with the animation limit but its something we have to deal with. personally i would rather have them in there than not and would gladly get rid of sex animations for DDI

[Tyrant99]

Seems Modders will need new versions of FNIS Sexy Moves in order to compile as of 4.1:

 

 

I had a version pre 360 so got the above errors, downloading the 7.1 scripts fixed it.

[Kimy]

13 minutes ago, galgat said:

   If what your saying is true I am looking at 2842 animation by DDI, and 1600 of them are hidden, and what exactly do you mean by alternate animation, that FNIS does not count ? but still count against your animation limit ?

 

   What all have you piled into this.. that is a lion's share of animation, and a crippling blow to a lot of us.  There won't be any real room left over for anything, and the only place you can cull animations will be the Adult animations, which are probably the most prized, and give the most randomness to the story's, and quest's that Adult's play.

 

   Seems like and awfully lot of resource take by a resource. what is left for the modder's is going to be slim pickings.

Can't make cool stuff without using resources, unfortunately. DD is certainly not small in terms of animation footprint, but it's not your average little fluff mod that has next to no impact on gameplay. I said it a few times now, but the DD family of mods provides so much content that it amounts to the next best thing to a total conversion of Skyrim. I am not aware of ANY mod family anywhere here or even on Nexus that does anything remotely like it. It's not reasonable to demand the framework powering such content to use no more resources than the average custom follower. It's not that we're choking the air out of our users. There is still room for hundreds of sex animations, combat and walk replacers and whatnot. But yes, if people expect to be able to install EVERY single SLAL pack -and- PCEA2 -and- ZAP 8 -and- DD -and- 0Sex, no, that won't work. It didn't work before DD 4.1, either. People will need to pick what they really want. I still don't think having a choice is a bad thing. A few years back we'd have killed for having more SL animations than one can reasonably install at the same time. Now we do. That's not a bad thing. That's a good thing.

[galgat]

22 minutes ago, ttpt said:

The alternate animations, roughly as I understand them, replaces for example your walk and run animation with, well, an alternate walk animation temporarily, for when you're in an arm bound animation, so it will hold your arms in place instead of playing the normal swing your arms from side to side animation. I believe FNIS sexy walk uses the same idea and I believe served as  a proof of the concept. Like I mentioned in my earlier post, I have the same situation as you in that I can run an overall higher number of animation with 40 than with 41, but AA seem to be the culprit.

 

Like I can see why DD uses it for its stuff since it seems pretty neat for that purpose, but I'm also with you in that it uses seemingly way too many. For now I'm probably gonna stick to 4.0 and see when other mods update and see if they require 41 or not and make decisions based on that.

  And yet, 4.0 is mainly only missing the pet bondage items and the shibari, and with it I can load 11803 animations with no problem, and it only added 1025 animation, and I never missed anything.  What have you done that made you add so many extra hidden animations.  There just not seem to be enough return for it.

 

   you jump from 1025 to 2842 animations. I don't see the result. If you add two more items next time will the animations double.  It just seems so harsh.

 

  EDIT >>> and you leave us not choice, as you never leave older version's available for anyone to download.

[Nazzzgul666]

On 6/10/2018 at 6:53 PM, Kimy said:

I will be open - we're not quite done adding animations to DD. People ask for more bound sex animations that work with our devices - and we will deliver them.

As one of those who are quite happy about that (and successfully asked around at animators who would share resources to edit them ito bound animations :)), i still think it would be a good idea to seperate these as far as possible. While - as far as i got it - seperating AA sets from items is not possible or pointless, bound animations (and other stuff like surrender and "Unconscious"  idles possibly) might as well be packed into a forth package of the DD familiy imho. That way hopefully the choices one has to make would be less limited whith little downsides, as far as i can see. Modders who want them can still make it a hard requirement, but i'd be able to play a big combination of other mods that don't. And while it's a nice idea - the number of DD mods that will use those is most likely much smaller than the number of mods using DDi.

 

[ttpt]

16 minutes ago, galgat said:

  And yet, 4.0 is mainly only missing the pet bondage items and the shibari, and with it I can load 11803 animations with no problem, and it only added 1025 animation, and I never missed anything.  What have you done that made you add so many extra hidden animations.  There just not seem to be enough return for it.

 

   you jump from 1025 to 2842 animations. I don't see the result. If you add two more items next time will the animations double.  It just seems so harsh.

 

  EDIT >>> and you leave us not choice, as you never leave older version's available for anyone to download.

I feel like we should just consider ourselves lucky and if you still haven't deleted 4.0 and wish to keep using it you should just stick to it. New people trying out DD for the first time won't have to make hard choices on new games because it will either work to their tastes or it will be too much and that's that.

 

As far as mods that have DD as a dependency, while I deeply respect deviously enslaved and it's ability to add interaction with stuff for DD, if it updates and makes DD4.1 a hard requirement I would probably give up on it. SD+ doesn't get a lot of updates so that's another one that would probably affect my decision but I won't have to worry about it for a while, it doesn't help that SD+ has both DD an ZAP as requirements, but getting rid of Zap doesn't work out for the mods that I care about like prison overhaul.

 

Just stay with 4.0 if it works for you and maybe by the time other mods with dependency on DD update the animation situation will get a solution, remember the whole string count limit was a big thing at one point but solutions surfaced even for that, and even adding any animation to the game was a big problem before FNIS came along.

[Kimy]

9 minutes ago, galgat said:

  And yet, 4.0 is mainly only missing the pet bondage items and the shibari, and with it I can load 11803 animations with no problem, and it only added 1025 animation, and I never missed anything.  What have you done that made you add so many extra hidden animations.  There just not seem to be enough return for it.

 

   you jump from 1025 to 2842 animations. I don't see the result. If you add two more items next time will the animations double.  It just seems so harsh.

We added some 270 animations in 4.1 compared to 4.0. We certainly didn't double our count.

9 minutes ago, galgat said:

 

  EDIT >>> and you leave us not choice, as you never leave older version's available for anyone to download.

Most popular DD mods update to the newest version sooner or later. It would make very little sense to keep older versions around. You'd be stuck with old and potentially bugged versions of both the framework and content mods forever. A little example, in 4.1 I fixed a really annoying bug that caused NPCs to never reset their animations when devices got removed. Would you REALLY not want to have that fix, for one more SLAL pack you rarely get to see unless you let Skyrim play sex animations for 5 hours a day?

[Supertin]

2 minutes ago, galgat said:

  And yet, 4.0 is mainly only missing the pet bondage items and the shibari, and with it I can load 11803 animations with no problem, and it only added 1025 animation, and I never missed anything.  What have you done that made you add so many extra hidden animations.  There just not seem to be enough return for it.

 

   you jump from 1025 to 2842 animations. I don't see the result. If you add two more items next time will the animations double.  It just seems so harsh.

There are no hidden animations. If your issue was super obvious someone would have replied with a solution already.

The fnis output will list all animations files you have installed, there's nothing 'hidden'. It will show a count for alternate animations files installed seperately to the number of total 'regular' installed animations.

Don't know how you came up with those arbitrary animation numbers btw. DD did not jump from 1025 animations to 2842. lol?

 

If you think there's not enough value in whatever animations we add, well that's just like your opinion man.

 

 

 

-------------------------------

Besides all this talk about animation count is relatively pointless anyway. The biggest area for optimization is and will be for quite some time SLAL packs. Sexlab only has a limited amount of animation slots anyway. Nowadays pretty much anyone fills up the 500 available slots for human animations and probably creatures too. If we assume an average of 5 stages per animation slot you cant use more than 5000 (Or 7500 at most if Sexlab updates the limit to 750 at any point in time) animations through sexlab anyway. The rest of the animations that are filling up your fnis output (and thus are loaded into your game) will be wasted space. All the animations you have in your installed SLAL packs, but not checked in their MCM are wasting  3-7 slots each depending on how many stages they have.

The solution the community should be looking for is a way to clean up or customize their SLAL packs so they only include the animations you want to begin with. While an MCM for that ingame is convenient, it is incredibly wasteful. I'm not blaming the author of SLAL or anything either, it just wasn't much of a concern at the time I suppose.

[Lute]

1 hour ago, MrEsturk said:

Ok, I've isolated that it is a conflicting mod from a list of suspects (disabling them all fixed the glitch). Now the fun of figuring out which one is causing it. I swear modding Skyrim sometimes feels like being locked in an abusive relationship...

If you're running Slaverun Reloaded the implementation of the crawling animation in the MCM menu breaks this as it forces either the default idles or the crawling idles. If you comment out any lines mentioning 'crawl' in SLV_PeriodicCheck.psc and recompile it'll fix it, or you can wait for a bugfix.

 

On an unrelated note, I still need help with my offset bound animation issue; could somebody at least please link me to a 4.0 changelog?

 

 

[galgat]

15 minutes ago, Supertin said:

There are no hidden animations. If your issue was super obvious someone would have replied with a solution already.

The fnis output will list all animations files you have installed, there's nothing 'hidden'. It will show a count for alternate animations files installed seperately to the number of total 'regular' installed animations.

Don't know how you came up with those arbitrary animation numbers btw. DD did not jump from 1025 animations to 2842. lol?

 

If you think there's not enough value in whatever animations we add, well that's just like your opinion man.

 

 

 

-------------------------------

Besides all this talk about animation count is relatively pointless anyway. The biggest area for optimization is and will be for quite some time SLAL packs. Sexlab only has a limited amount of animation slots anyway. Nowadays pretty much anyone fills up the 500 available slots for human animations and probably creatures too. If we assume an average of 5 stages per animation slot you cant use more than 5000 (Or 7500 at most if Sexlab updates the limit to 750 at any point in time) animations through sexlab anyway. The rest of the animations that are filling up your fnis output (and thus are loaded into your game) will be wasted space. All the animations you have in your installed SLAL packs, but not checked in their MCM are wasting  3-7 slots each depending on how many stages they have.

The solution the community should be looking for is a way to clean up or customize their SLAL packs so they only include the animations you want to begin with. While an MCM for that ingame is convenient, it is incredibly wasteful. I'm not blaming the author of SLAL or anything either, it just wasn't much of a concern at the time I suppose.

   read back a few post, and you will see my testing, and what I found by doing it. 

[galgat]

19 minutes ago, Kimy said:

We added some 270 animations in 4.1 compared to 4.0. We certainly didn't double our count.

Most popular DD mods update to the newest version sooner or later. It would make very little sense to keep older versions around. You'd be stuck with old and potentially bugged versions of both the framework and content mods forever. A little example, in 4.1 I fixed a really annoying bug that caused NPCs to never reset their animations when devices got removed. Would you REALLY not want to have that fix, for one more SLAL pack you rarely get to see unless you let Skyrim play sex animations for 5 hours a day?

    Then why am I stopped at about 10400 with DDI4.1, and I can load 11803 no problem with DDI4.0

[galgat]

23 minutes ago, ttpt said:

I feel like we should just consider ourselves lucky and if you still haven't deleted 4.0 and wish to keep using it you should just stick to it. New people trying out DD for the first time won't have to make hard choices on new games because it will either work to their tastes or it will be too much and that's that.

 

As far as mods that have DD as a dependency, while I deeply respect deviously enslaved and it's ability to add interaction with stuff for DD, if it updates and makes DD4.1 a hard requirement I would probably give up on it. SD+ doesn't get a lot of updates so that's another one that would probably affect my decision but I won't have to worry about it for a while, it doesn't help that SD+ has both DD an ZAP as requirements, but getting rid of Zap doesn't work out for the mods that I care about like prison overhaul.

 

Just stay with 4.0 if it works for you and maybe by the time other mods with dependency on DD update the animation situation will get a solution, remember the whole string count limit was a big thing at one point but solutions surfaced even for that, and even adding any animation to the game was a big problem before FNIS came along.

   Absolutely! agree, I am glad I still have 4.0 for a fall back.

[Kimy]

4 minutes ago, galgat said:

    Then why am I stopped at about 10400 with DDI4.1, and I can load 11803 no problem with DDI4.0

Honestly, I have no clue what's going on there, but check the DD archive if you don't believe me, count the HKX files in there and compare to 4.0.

 

It's really just 270 more.

[Reesewow]

24 minutes ago, Supertin said:

The solution the community should be looking for is a way to clean up or customize their SLAL packs so they only include the animations you want to begin with. While an MCM for that ingame is convenient, it is incredibly wasteful. I'm not blaming the author of SLAL or anything either, it just wasn't much of a concern at the time I suppose.

This is a really big point to take seriously IMO - anyone who is enough of a power-modder to be running into these extreme load issues should probably learn how to manually edit SLAL packs to cull them down to reasonable sizes if they absolutely want to keep as many animations as possible at all times.  Users complaining about DD taking up too many animation slots while still running SLAL animations that they never see/aren't even registered in SL and hundreds of ZAP furniture idles of which 90% they will never see in their games seems extremely unhelpful - we all need to be our own personal modders sometimes and do our best to work within the realities of Skyrim's engine.

 

There is nothing magical about SLAL packs that makes them difficult to chop up and remove every animation you don't think you'd likely use in-game so that FNIS doesn't register it.  MadMansGun posted this just the other day as a basic how-to:

 

Quote

1. get a SLAL Pack that comes with it's txt source file.

2. delete animations you don't want from the txt.

3. run the SLAnimGenerate.pyw file (you need python 3).

4. use generatefnisformodders.exe and open the fnis list files for the SLAL Pack.

5. run GenerateFNISforUsers.exe.

6. pray that you did not fuck everything up.

7. re load/register the json files & animations in SLAL.

 

IMO this is *not* something that was ever intended to be handled by SLAL - SLAL's original purpose AFAIK was to provide animations authors and users an easy way to load animations into Sexlab that did not depend on a 3rd party modder's efforts like the Non-Sexlab Animation Pack mod, or even worse a full Sexlab update like prior to NSAP.  It makes no efforts to restrict FNIS load, just Sexlab slot load.

[ttpt]

 

I get a jump from like 1800 or so to 2500 in AA animations between DD4 and DD41, with the limit of 2000 someone mentioned my game obviously crashed on startup.

 

I can see how galgat's number check out, he also specifically mentioned during his test that he added more slal packs and newer versions of zap to inflate his number with a DD40 installation and even with a higher overall number the game works for him, which is consistent with my own tests. The issue still seems to be specifically AA animation but the solution I think for us for now is to just wait on other mods to update for 41 and then decide if we want to keep using them or not.

34 minutes ago, Kimy said:

A little example, in 4.1 I fixed a really annoying bug that caused NPCs to never reset their animations when devices got removed. Would you REALLY not want to have that fix

and like I've experienced that bug, but fixed that using console commands which given the skyrim engine I'm pretty used to doing, so I'm willing to live with that.

 

Maintaining an older version of the mod up on the other hand is pointless since there may be bigger bugs that are yet to be found and won't be fixed on the older ones, or can't be fixed due to gradual changes that may show up, it's like trying to maintain the 3.0 version but I'm sure there's people still running that and if it works for them that's fine.

[Piiska]

33 minutes ago, Supertin said:

 

The solution the community should be looking for is a way to clean up or customize their SLAL packs so they only include the animations you want to begin with.

This would be the ideal thing to do now I suppose. I've thought about doing it for a long while but never had the need and motivation because it's really time consuming when you have a lot of packs.

[Kimy]

I can't explain where these 700 additional AA would come from. As I said, we've added only about 200 new AA to the archive. The other 70 are idles.

[galgat]

19 minutes ago, Kimy said:

Honestly, I have no clue what's going on there, but check the DD archive if you don't believe me, count the HKX files in there and compare to 4.0.

 

It's really just 270 more.

   I did I even gave you the 270 animation added when i asked you in the Dev thread if that was what you had added.

 

     But something is funny here, because i can play with DDI 4.0 and have 11803 animations reading out in FNIS, and the game play's fine, but if I use DDI4.1, I can not load a game if My animations go over 10400. ( actually 10278 ) but when i played the dev version I had 10366. so I am guess in on the 10400 limit.

 

   Did you code something that would have given a false reading.  It makes not sense to me. as I said when i first discovered it. "I am at a loss", but the problems does exist. EDIT >> To the best of my Knowledge, and I know I am blond so sure I could miss, but It is what is happening to me.

 

   EDIT >> also from others that have PM'ed me I am not the only one.

[Nazzzgul666]

Another thought might be (and at this point i hope i didn't get it totally wrong, but i'm really not sure) to avoid AAs if possible. I'll explain what i understood so far:

There are offsets and AAs. AAs are prefered to items because they somehow ensure better the animation is used as intented, and DD switched from offsets to AA with DD4.0. Did i get that right so far?

If yes, i hope i'm not to bold if i suggest to go back to offsets in parts (i.e for some items), not only because of the limits. I've noticed some other stuff i don't like that much.

- sneaking: i have the "crawl on fours" animation installed that replaces sneaking. In earlier DD versions, that meant that i was crawling with my hands at my back if wearing an armbinder which i agree that it looks unrealistic but still fun. And realism is neither the reason i added all those mods nor i play Skyrim in the first place. If i wouldn't like the crawling, i wouldn't install it.

- running: my animation to run is replaced too when wearing armbinders. It's not that it looks bad, but i like my common running animation a lot better. It took me some years and a lot of tests to find it and i don't see why arms behind my back should cause my legs move 10 times faster than without. It doesn't fit especially in comparison, and if not necessary i'd prefer it not to be overwritten. That is, not more than neccessary of course. For items like hobble dresses and straight jackets with leg binders AA makes totally sense since it's meant to change the default running.

 

It's not like armbinders and stuff were totally buggy in v3, so i think this change might not be necessary in every case. I totally admit that i have little to no clue about this stuff and i might be missing one or even hundreds of important reasons, i just mention this in case i don't, hoping it also would fix the animation limit at least partly. Because as far as i can tell from my experience, the limits for AAs are much more important than the animation limit in total for SLAL packs etc. Not only in means of "it crashes" but also in means of "wich mods can i add", i totally agree that i can dismiss one or the other SLAL pack, but when i can't add my prefered running/walking + DD + a mod like SLAV which adds several of it's own animations and maybe a fighting mod, this indeed sounds bad.

 

Again - no clue but as a final thought, don't know the reason why there is DD_list, DD2_list, DDSL_list, but could it be possible that either those lists somehow still "mention" it all and count more towards the limit than necessary (like fore mentioned they count as 3 seperate mods to FNIS)? A look at this or if this seperation in three packs is actually necessary by somebody with a clue might show some potential for improvement.

[Kimy]

There is nothing in my code that could remotely cause such a problem in FNIS. The only part of DD that interacts with the FNIS generator are the FNIS definition files itself. I didn't change these in a while, so if the development version worked for you before, they still should.