Devious Devices - Integration 4.3a (2019-09-10)

[Reesewow]

2 hours ago, LazyBoot said:

All ballgags use the harder system, you'll need something to write with in order to talk wearing one.

I was under the impression that one of the implications of the larger ball gags was that they could take over the "hard" system and the smaller ones could again allow for gag-talk, since they were quite popular as items (especially in older DD mods). 

 

If that isn't the case in the new update, I would like to offer that as a suggestion since "hard" dialogue blocking and requiring the ink/quill/paper for communication makes modders leery to use ball gags in any sort of scene or event where the player could be expected to not have access to these items.

 

@galgat  

 

Simply put - you have too many mods and animations installed for your particular setup if you crash on load/new game.  You need to reduce your animation load if you want to be able to use 4.1, Skyrim simply cannot handle extreme animation loads and we've finally started to hit that point.  This will be an ongoing problem going forward whenever a new large SLAL pack updates or a major mod that uses animations updates - we need to be reasonable in what we include in our load orders.

 

There is nothing modders can do about this, this is the reason FORE did not want to release a version of FNIS with over 10k animation slots.

[CGi]

31 minutes ago, galgat said:

What could cause this, if I go over 10400 and use DDI4.1 it is instant CTD?

if i understood fore correctly, it's the not listed AA animations.

So the amount of animations is actually higher than what you're shown.

[Supertin]

21 minutes ago, Reesewow said:

I was under the impression that one of the implications of the larger ball gags was that they could take over the "hard" system and the smaller ones could again allow for gag-talk, since they were quite popular as items (especially in older DD mods). 

 

If that isn't the case in the new update, I would like to offer that as a suggestion since "hard" dialogue blocking and requiring the ink/quill/paper for communication makes modders leery to use ball gags in any sort of scene or event where the player could be expected to not have access to these items.

We already have plans for the next update to change and adjust how the gag difficulty system works. We're still discussing exact details, but the intention is to atleast add more nuance to it. That includes there being a noticeable difficulty difference between regular and bigger ball gags.

[galgat]

45 minutes ago, CGi said:

if i understood fore correctly, it's the not listed AA animations.

So the amount of animations is actually higher than what you're shown.

   all I know is I just used the same profile, installed DDI4.0 and ran the animation count output from FNIS up to 11803, and the game loads fine.  Same load Order, just more SLAL animations to get it to 11803.

 

How many animations that are somehow hidden in DDI4.1 are there, my last count on the dev version was only 1242. does it add another 1600 that i do not see?  That is strange indeed.

 

   So if I run zaz 8.0 I would pretty much have to drop every SLAL pack I have.

 

but with DDI4.1 I can not get above 10400, actually 10278, as It is hard to hit exactly at 10400, I am pretty much guessing that 10400 is the limit it may be lower. but it shows a 1600 animation loss for Me.

so if the Dev version I had, had 1242, then there must be 1600 more animations that are invisible in the released version as you say?

 

 EDIT >> The Dev version never did this to me, and I tried it just before release.

 

EDIT >> Only update i missed in the dev version was I think kimy's fix for the speedmult problem with the hobble skirt. I downloaded, and tested it very shorty before release.

[Kimy]

7 hours ago, galgat said:

   all I know is I just used the same profile, installed DDI4.0 and ran the animation count output from FNIS up to 11803, and the game loads fine.  Same load Order, just more SLAL animations to get it to 11803.

 

How many animations that are somehow hidden in DDI4.1 are there, my last count on the dev version was only 1242. does it add another 1600 that i do not see?  That is strange indeed.

 

   So if I run zaz 8.0 I would pretty much have to drop every SLAL pack I have.

 

but with DDI4.1 I can not get above 10400, actually 10278, as It is hard to hit exactly at 10400, I am pretty much guessing that 10400 is the limit it may be lower. but it shows a 1600 animation loss for Me.

so if the Dev version I had, had 1242, then there must be 1600 more animations that are invisible in the released version as you say?

 

 EDIT >> The Dev version never did this to me, and I tried it just before release.

The released version is 100% identical to the last dev version.

 

I don't know how FNIS is reporting AA, but there are about ~1000 animations in our 14 AA sets.

 

About ZAP 8 - see my last night's post about that topic.

[galgat]

10 minutes ago, Kimy said:

The released version is 100% identical to the last dev version.

 

I don't know how FNIS is reporting AA, but there are about ~1000 animations in our 14 AA sets.

 

About ZAP 8 - see my last night's post about that topic.

   I only installed zaz 8 to get my animation count as close to 12000 as I could when I went back to the save before loading DDI4.1, and installed DDI4.0. before that it was zaz7

 

which zaz7,  I much prefer to run.  zaz7 only has 895 animations, zaz 8 has 1731, I needed the extra to push the 12000 limit.

 

 

EDIT >>> Only reason I mentioned zaz 8 is that many quality mod's are now calling for it.

 

EDIT >>> I will re download the new release, and try again, it could perhaps be something in that, but I do not see how, everything functioned fine, i tested all the new Item's, and they all worked, and looked good, just i could only have 10278 animations total with DDI 4.1.

[galgat]

  addition, with the dev version I had 10366 animations from FNIS, that is why I guessed 10400 may have been the limit, i checked my note's on that when I was testing the dev version.

 

edit >>I do know that at 10566 it failed to load the save this sense I have been testing DDI4.1.

[Mister X]

I got an idea:

maybe add several different options for keys, made out of different resources, so they have different chances to break.

Then a simple iron key will be much more likely to break than a steel key and a key carved out of a dragon bone hardly will break. This could be tied to the lockpicking chance of the device, a hard to pick item also is more likely to break a key than a device with a more simple lock.

[Matz]

Seems to work great for me, thank's for the update ! I love your mods

[ttpt]

1 hour ago, galgat said:

  addition, with the dev version I had 10366 animations from FNIS, that is why I guessed 10400 may have been the limit, i checked my note's on that when I was testing the dev version.

 

edit >>I do know that at 10566 it failed to load the save this sense I have been testing DDI4.1.

From what I've tested it doesn't seem to be the overall animations limit that's the problem, I can run with over 11000 on DD4 for example but even if I run at 10000 on DD41 it crashes, the problem is specifically the alternate animation limit, which people in the thread have said is about 2000.

 

Frankly I don't know the internals of the mod or why it needs so many alternate animation, but if the mod alone uses over half of the allowed AA limit that's gonna cause a lot of problems for a lot of people.

 

[MrEsturk]

I've been having an odd bug with the armbinders/yokes (it predates 4.1, started about a week ago) were the idle/jog animations will work properly for a moment, then revert to the default animations. All the other animations such as combat/jumping will continue to play the proper restrained animations, even run animation.

 

I don't get what's causing this issue at all. Reloading a save will fix it for a moment, then the animations will break again. I tried starting a new game to see if it was just my savecode, but nope, same issue.

 

If it helps here are the animations that break. They will play the proper restrainted animations for a brief moment, then revert to the default player animations the first time DD polls and stay that way to I reload a save:

 

mt_idle

mt_run####

mt_walk####

 

All other replacement animations will continue to work fine. The glitch occurs on all heavy bondage devices (armbinders/yokes/handcuffs/etc). Reinstalling DD didn't fix it, nor did install 4.1. Driving me nuts.

[El_Duderino]

Just now, ttpt said:

Frankly I don't know the internals of the mod or why it needs so many alternate animation

That's quite simple, because there are many items that wouldn't work at all (or would look a lot less convincing) without Alternate Animations. Currently, alternate anims are used for: armbinder (& straitjacket), elbowbinder, yoke, handcuffs (& prisoner chains), breast bondage yoke, pony walk boots, pet suit, hobble dress. That's some of the coolest devices in DD, and without FNIS AA, several of these would be impossible to create.

 

It's as Kimy said, people sadly need to make decisions about which mods they really want to use as DD and others of our favorite kinky mods keep growing. In the case of DD, those decisions extend to beyond Loverslab and folks might have to choose whether they want to use (for example) PCEA or DD in their playthrough if they also have other mods that use FNIS AA.

[El_Duderino]

8 minutes ago, MrEsturk said:

If it helps here are the animations that break. They will play the proper restrainted animations for a brief moment, then revert to the default player animations the first time DD polls and stay that way to I reload a save:

The only thing I can think of right now (but which I've seen happen in my game) is when you have another mod active that uses FNIS AA sets to set those anims for the player char. In my case it was FNIS SM that, when triggered to refresh after a cell change as per its script, wiped the DD anims.

[Reesewow]

1 minute ago, El_Duderino said:

The only thing I can think of right now (but which I've seen happen in my game) is when you have another mod active that uses FNIS AA sets to set those anims for the player char. In my case it was FNIS SM that, when triggered to refresh after a cell change as per its script, wiped the DD anims.

Sexy Moves definitely gets a bit weird if you update DD while it is running - for me directly after updating to 4.1 my PC and followers were using snippets of random DD walks such as the Breast Bondage and Pony walk animations instead of Sexy Move animations.  I found that resetting the PC sexy walk by toggling "use 360 walks" off and on and using the manual dialogue debug option to reset my follower's walks fixed this issue for me and I haven't had issues since.

 

Not sure if this is related to MrEsturk's issue however.

[galgat]

2 minutes ago, El_Duderino said:

That's quite simple, because there are many items that wouldn't work at all (or would look a lot less convincing) without Alternate Animations. Currently, alternate anims are used for: armbinder (& straitjacket), elbowbinder, yoke, handcuffs (& prisoner chains), breast bondage yoke, pony walk boots, pet suit, hobble dress. That's some of the coolest devices in DD, and without FNIS AA, several of these would be impossible to create.

 

It's as Kimy said, people sadly need to make decisions about which mods they really want to use as DD and others of our favorite kinky mods keep growing. In the case of DD, those decisions extend to beyond Loverslab and folks might have to choose whether they want to use (for example) PCEA or DD in their playthrough if they also have other mods that use FNIS AA.

   If what your saying is true I am looking at 2842 animation by DDI, and 1600 of them are hidden, and what exactly do you mean by alternate animation, that FNIS does not count ? but still count against your animation limit ?

 

   What all have you piled into this.. that is a lion's share of animation, and a crippling blow to a lot of us.  There won't be any real room left over for anything, and the only place you can cull animations will be the Adult animations, which are probably the most prized, and give the most randomness to the story's, and quest's that Adult's play.

 

   Seems like and awfully lot of resource take by a resource. what is left for the modder's is going to be slim pickings.

[MrEsturk]

5 minutes ago, El_Duderino said:

The only thing I can think of right now (but which I've seen happen in my game) is when you have another mod active that uses FNIS AA sets to set those anims for the player char. In my case it was FNIS SM that, when triggered to refresh after a cell change as per its script, wiped the DD anims.

Ok, I've isolated that it is a conflicting mod from a list of suspects (disabling them all fixed the glitch). Now the fun of figuring out which one is causing it. I swear modding Skyrim sometimes feels like being locked in an abusive relationship...

[ttpt]

3 minutes ago, galgat said:

   If what your saying is true I am looking at 2842 animation by DDI, and 1600 of them are hidden, and what exactly do you mean by alternate animation, that FNIS does not count ? but still count against your animation limit ?

 

   What all have you piled into this.. that is a lion's share of animation, and a crippling blow to a lot of us.  There won't be any real room left over for anything, and the only place you can cull animations will be the Adult animations, which are probably the most prized, and give the most randomness to the story's, and quest's that Adult's play.

 

   Seems like and awfully lot of resource take by a resource. what is left for the modder's is going to be slim pickings.

The alternate animations, roughly as I understand them, replaces for example your walk and run animation with, well, an alternate walk animation temporarily, for when you're in an arm bound animation, so it will hold your arms in place instead of playing the normal swing your arms from side to side animation. I believe FNIS sexy walk uses the same idea and I believe served as  a proof of the concept. Like I mentioned in my earlier post, I have the same situation as you in that I can run an overall higher number of animation with 40 than with 41, but AA seem to be the culprit.

 

Like I can see why DD uses it for its stuff since it seems pretty neat for that purpose, but I'm also with you in that it uses seemingly way too many. For now I'm probably gonna stick to 4.0 and see when other mods update and see if they require 41 or not and make decisions based on that.

[Guest]

Tbh its not an ideal situation with the animation limit but its something we have to deal with. personally i would rather have them in there than not and would gladly get rid of sex animations for DDI

[Tyrant99]

Seems Modders will need new versions of FNIS Sexy Moves in order to compile as of 4.1:

 

 

I had a version pre 360 so got the above errors, downloading the 7.1 scripts fixed it.

[Kimy]

13 minutes ago, galgat said:

   If what your saying is true I am looking at 2842 animation by DDI, and 1600 of them are hidden, and what exactly do you mean by alternate animation, that FNIS does not count ? but still count against your animation limit ?

 

   What all have you piled into this.. that is a lion's share of animation, and a crippling blow to a lot of us.  There won't be any real room left over for anything, and the only place you can cull animations will be the Adult animations, which are probably the most prized, and give the most randomness to the story's, and quest's that Adult's play.

 

   Seems like and awfully lot of resource take by a resource. what is left for the modder's is going to be slim pickings.

Can't make cool stuff without using resources, unfortunately. DD is certainly not small in terms of animation footprint, but it's not your average little fluff mod that has next to no impact on gameplay. I said it a few times now, but the DD family of mods provides so much content that it amounts to the next best thing to a total conversion of Skyrim. I am not aware of ANY mod family anywhere here or even on Nexus that does anything remotely like it. It's not reasonable to demand the framework powering such content to use no more resources than the average custom follower. It's not that we're choking the air out of our users. There is still room for hundreds of sex animations, combat and walk replacers and whatnot. But yes, if people expect to be able to install EVERY single SLAL pack -and- PCEA2 -and- ZAP 8 -and- DD -and- 0Sex, no, that won't work. It didn't work before DD 4.1, either. People will need to pick what they really want. I still don't think having a choice is a bad thing. A few years back we'd have killed for having more SL animations than one can reasonably install at the same time. Now we do. That's not a bad thing. That's a good thing.

[galgat]

22 minutes ago, ttpt said:

The alternate animations, roughly as I understand them, replaces for example your walk and run animation with, well, an alternate walk animation temporarily, for when you're in an arm bound animation, so it will hold your arms in place instead of playing the normal swing your arms from side to side animation. I believe FNIS sexy walk uses the same idea and I believe served as  a proof of the concept. Like I mentioned in my earlier post, I have the same situation as you in that I can run an overall higher number of animation with 40 than with 41, but AA seem to be the culprit.

 

Like I can see why DD uses it for its stuff since it seems pretty neat for that purpose, but I'm also with you in that it uses seemingly way too many. For now I'm probably gonna stick to 4.0 and see when other mods update and see if they require 41 or not and make decisions based on that.

  And yet, 4.0 is mainly only missing the pet bondage items and the shibari, and with it I can load 11803 animations with no problem, and it only added 1025 animation, and I never missed anything.  What have you done that made you add so many extra hidden animations.  There just not seem to be enough return for it.

 

   you jump from 1025 to 2842 animations. I don't see the result. If you add two more items next time will the animations double.  It just seems so harsh.

 

  EDIT >>> and you leave us not choice, as you never leave older version's available for anyone to download.

[Nazzzgul666]

On 6/10/2018 at 6:53 PM, Kimy said:

I will be open - we're not quite done adding animations to DD. People ask for more bound sex animations that work with our devices - and we will deliver them.

As one of those who are quite happy about that (and successfully asked around at animators who would share resources to edit them ito bound animations :)), i still think it would be a good idea to seperate these as far as possible. While - as far as i got it - seperating AA sets from items is not possible or pointless, bound animations (and other stuff like surrender and "Unconscious"  idles possibly) might as well be packed into a forth package of the DD familiy imho. That way hopefully the choices one has to make would be less limited whith little downsides, as far as i can see. Modders who want them can still make it a hard requirement, but i'd be able to play a big combination of other mods that don't. And while it's a nice idea - the number of DD mods that will use those is most likely much smaller than the number of mods using DDi.

 

[ttpt]

16 minutes ago, galgat said:

  And yet, 4.0 is mainly only missing the pet bondage items and the shibari, and with it I can load 11803 animations with no problem, and it only added 1025 animation, and I never missed anything.  What have you done that made you add so many extra hidden animations.  There just not seem to be enough return for it.

 

   you jump from 1025 to 2842 animations. I don't see the result. If you add two more items next time will the animations double.  It just seems so harsh.

 

  EDIT >>> and you leave us not choice, as you never leave older version's available for anyone to download.

I feel like we should just consider ourselves lucky and if you still haven't deleted 4.0 and wish to keep using it you should just stick to it. New people trying out DD for the first time won't have to make hard choices on new games because it will either work to their tastes or it will be too much and that's that.

 

As far as mods that have DD as a dependency, while I deeply respect deviously enslaved and it's ability to add interaction with stuff for DD, if it updates and makes DD4.1 a hard requirement I would probably give up on it. SD+ doesn't get a lot of updates so that's another one that would probably affect my decision but I won't have to worry about it for a while, it doesn't help that SD+ has both DD an ZAP as requirements, but getting rid of Zap doesn't work out for the mods that I care about like prison overhaul.

 

Just stay with 4.0 if it works for you and maybe by the time other mods with dependency on DD update the animation situation will get a solution, remember the whole string count limit was a big thing at one point but solutions surfaced even for that, and even adding any animation to the game was a big problem before FNIS came along.

[Kimy]

9 minutes ago, galgat said:

  And yet, 4.0 is mainly only missing the pet bondage items and the shibari, and with it I can load 11803 animations with no problem, and it only added 1025 animation, and I never missed anything.  What have you done that made you add so many extra hidden animations.  There just not seem to be enough return for it.

 

   you jump from 1025 to 2842 animations. I don't see the result. If you add two more items next time will the animations double.  It just seems so harsh.

We added some 270 animations in 4.1 compared to 4.0. We certainly didn't double our count.

9 minutes ago, galgat said:

 

  EDIT >>> and you leave us not choice, as you never leave older version's available for anyone to download.

Most popular DD mods update to the newest version sooner or later. It would make very little sense to keep older versions around. You'd be stuck with old and potentially bugged versions of both the framework and content mods forever. A little example, in 4.1 I fixed a really annoying bug that caused NPCs to never reset their animations when devices got removed. Would you REALLY not want to have that fix, for one more SLAL pack you rarely get to see unless you let Skyrim play sex animations for 5 hours a day?

[Supertin]

2 minutes ago, galgat said:

  And yet, 4.0 is mainly only missing the pet bondage items and the shibari, and with it I can load 11803 animations with no problem, and it only added 1025 animation, and I never missed anything.  What have you done that made you add so many extra hidden animations.  There just not seem to be enough return for it.

 

   you jump from 1025 to 2842 animations. I don't see the result. If you add two more items next time will the animations double.  It just seems so harsh.

There are no hidden animations. If your issue was super obvious someone would have replied with a solution already.

The fnis output will list all animations files you have installed, there's nothing 'hidden'. It will show a count for alternate animations files installed seperately to the number of total 'regular' installed animations.

Don't know how you came up with those arbitrary animation numbers btw. DD did not jump from 1025 animations to 2842. lol?

 

If you think there's not enough value in whatever animations we add, well that's just like your opinion man.

 

 

 

-------------------------------

Besides all this talk about animation count is relatively pointless anyway. The biggest area for optimization is and will be for quite some time SLAL packs. Sexlab only has a limited amount of animation slots anyway. Nowadays pretty much anyone fills up the 500 available slots for human animations and probably creatures too. If we assume an average of 5 stages per animation slot you cant use more than 5000 (Or 7500 at most if Sexlab updates the limit to 750 at any point in time) animations through sexlab anyway. The rest of the animations that are filling up your fnis output (and thus are loaded into your game) will be wasted space. All the animations you have in your installed SLAL packs, but not checked in their MCM are wasting  3-7 slots each depending on how many stages they have.

The solution the community should be looking for is a way to clean up or customize their SLAL packs so they only include the animations you want to begin with. While an MCM for that ingame is convenient, it is incredibly wasteful. I'm not blaming the author of SLAL or anything either, it just wasn't much of a concern at the time I suppose.