DonQuiWho Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 I'm with the folk who believe that the Frameworks are as they are, and pretty much have to be so. I don't think that's an unreasonable ask by the developers, as they are the bedrock on which everything else works But we definitely need more granularity when installing SLAL packs. That's the key to a lot (but not all) of the current problems we face with max total anim count At the moment SLAL installation is either all or nothing (apart from limited breakdowns like Shashankie's FOMOD for the Funnybiz ones, and the human/Creature/(+/-) furniture splits some other modders provide). So even if you might personally only really want a fraction of any SLAL pack content, and register only a few of its anims in any particular game (probably a different fraction of what others want) you still get the whole pack in the game, loaded up and counted in FNIS MadMansGun's solution is great if you're a techie, but if you're not, like me, you don't want to go delving into that sort of solution So if we are serious about trimming anims to a minimum in our games, we need someone to revise SLAL (I suggested that there a few days ago for this very reason), or construct an equivalent to use the same base data, but which allows us to select, individually, exactly which anims from any pack we each need, and go into our own customised SLAL packs That probably may have to be a solution outside of mod managers etc, but there are a heap of other similar utilities like that which people use every day with no problem
Reesewow Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 18 minutes ago, galgat said: But something is funny here, because i can play with DDI 4.0 and have 11803 animations reading out in FNIS, and the game play's fine, but if I use DDI4.1, I can not load a game if My animations go over 10400. ( actually 10278 ) but when i played the dev version I had 10366. so I am guess in on the 10400 limit. Your answer, at least right now, could probably only be answered by a Bethesda employee in charge of coding the engine, as to where the field limitation is causing these CTDs and what types of data contribute to them. I don't think anyone here is enough of a code monkey to give you a direct answer on this, at least not yet. My complete layman guess would be that the animation number spat out by FNIS is only a part of the crashes, and that other data contributes too (data strings ect). So when you make a big update like DD 4.0 -> DD 4.1, a bunch of other data also pushes your engine past the limits since you are obviously right on the line. So you just getting your FNIS value back to the same as in 4.0 is not enough, and you need to drop it even further to your new "max" of 10400. I may be completely wrong of course, but this isn't black magic.
DonQuiWho Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 24 minutes ago, galgat said: I did I even gave you the 270 animation added when i asked you in the Dev thread if that was what you had added. But something is funny here, because i can play with DDI 4.0 and have 11803 animations reading out in FNIS, and the game play's fine, but if I use DDI4.1, I can not load a game if My animations go over 10400. ( actually 10278 ) but when i played the dev version I had 10366. so I am guess in on the 10400 limit. Did you code something that would have given a false reading. It makes not sense to me. as I said when i first discovered it. "I am at a loss", but the problems does exist. EDIT >> To the best of my Knowledge, and I know I am blond so sure I could miss, but It is what is happening to me. EDIT >> also from others that have PM'ed me I am not the only one. Didn't fore say something further up this thread about a couple of weeks ago, long before the final versions came out, that there was something inconsistent in the way anims were counted anyway? Try looking back about a couple of weeks
Tyrant99 Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 My own observations on Animation count changes between DD 4.0 and 4.1: I actually ran FNIS before installing and after and wrote down count for both. I had 9,137 animations before and 9,354 animations after. Difference = 217. Looking at actual .HKX files, there's 115 additional in DD Folder (653 vs 538), and 102 additional in DD3 folder. 102 + 115 = 217 total new .HKX files. When you get the exact same number twice using fully different methods... 2
Nazzzgul666 Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 31 minutes ago, donkeywho said: I'm with the folk who believe that the Frameworks are as they are, and pretty much have to be so. I don't think that's an unreasonable ask by the developers, as they are the bedrock on which everything else works But we definitely need more granularity when installing SLAL packs. That's the key to a lot (but not all) of the current problems we face with max total anim count The thing is, if AAs are the problem, it won't help to uninstall all of your slal packs - at least as far as i got it /we know it. Since it somehow still seems to help, ot sure... maybe animations with objects count towards AA or something like that? I'm not sure, what i'm sure about is that a) there are several hard limits. And a framework that depends on other mods to do something imho shouldn't occupy half of one of them. I think everybody can agree on that. b) nobody is exactly sure which those hard limits are, or where. At least not all of them. But it's definitly NOT only the number of animations added by SLAL. I'm running more SLAL animations than most people with better hardware than mine without any problems (currently around 15k), both creatures and human animations are at 500 in SL and the only reason it isn't more is because that's the SL limit, i have more installed. Pretty much every pack i could find, not all up-to-date but nevertheless. Plus ZAP 8. The limit for FNIS XXL for common SLAL packages is 20k and for me it's completly pointless to test this limit because i can't add them to sexlab anyways, even if i wanted to. So... i disagree, more granularity for SLAL packs isn't the key. What i don't have for example is PCEA, though, or any poser mods. So to me it sounds reasonable that SLAL packs are not the main problem. And if they aren't, uninstalling them shouldn't be the solution either. Therefore, imho we as a community should do some research which & where those limits are and what both users and modders can do to avoid them. That doesn't mean i expect drastic changes to DD just for testing, but since the jump from 4.0 to 4.1 did make it much worse appearently, imho it's a good place to look at what might be the reason. Even if it's just a bug and doesn't bring us much enlightment about the limits, it's still worth a look i think. And also even if it is a bug in DD, i don't expect an urgent hotfix, but especially with increasing contents a working long term solution anywhere between DD4.2 and DD5.0.would be nice. 17 minutes ago, Tyrant99 said: My own observations on Animation count changes between DD 4.0 and 4.1: I actually ran FNIS before installing and after and wrote down count for both. I had 9,137 animations before and 9,354 animations after. Difference = 217. Looking at actual .HKX files, there's 115 additional in DD Folder (653 vs 538), and 102 additional in DD3 folder. 102 + 115 = 217 total new .HKX files. When you get the exact same number twice using fully different methods... Did you start a new game or upgrade mid game? When you and galgat get different outcomes what FNIS counts, maybe it's a bug in FNIS rather than DD. Maybe FNIS can't handle (certain) upgrades very well, or... i have no clue. Which mod manager?
DonQuiWho Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 14 minutes ago, Tyrant99 said: My own observations on Animation count changes between DD 4.0 and 4.1: I actually ran FNIS before installing and after and wrote down count for both. I had 9,137 animations before and 9,354 animations after. Difference = 217. Looking at actual .HKX files, there's 115 additional in DD Folder (653 vs 538), and 102 additional in DD3 folder. 102 + 115 = 217 total new .HKX files. When you get the exact same number twice using fully different methods... Yeah, I could, and did, do that too. But the AA counting isn't half funny.... ?
galgat Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 31 minutes ago, donkeywho said: Didn't fore say something further up this thread about a couple of weeks ago, long before the final versions came out, that there was something inconsistent in the way anims were counted anyway? Try looking back about a couple of weeks all that would prove is that there are 1600 animations taken off the limit of 12000. so that would either mean that DDI4.1 added 2842 animations or that DDI4.1 reduced the amount that you can have. As this only happens with 4.1, and not in 4.0 which if you read my post's I pumped full of a lot of animation I don't really need, to get to 11803, and no problems with 4.0, game play is fine. I used the same profile for both way's, and it is a profile that never ever had DDI on it of any kind. I especially made this new profile in anticipation of testing DDI 4.1. All it had in it before I loaded DDI4.1 Was sexlab, and zaz 7. and most all the SLAL packs I normally use. DDI would Log crash before the VM is thawing, which is a good indicator of to many animation or a bad skeleton, and a couple of other things. This caused me to return to a save before any sexlab zaz or DDI had ever been installed, and load the game with no extra animations. All loaded fine, and DDI4.1 loaded. Then I started adding the SLAL pack's until it crashed at around 10400 animations indicated by FNIS. I then installed DDI4.0 at the same save point, adding sexlab,this time zaz 8 for the extra animations, sla, and all DDI 4.0 with the DDX, and DDA. and pushed the animation to as high as I could which was 11803 (about 1400 extra animation that i did not have installed when i tried 4.1). If I had put Zaz 8.0 Plus (which I think now I would have had room for as it has 1777 animation in it. ) I think I would have gotten even closer to the 12000 limit. But I only installed zaz8.0 as it has 1731 animation, up from zaz 7 which has 895. I wanted to reach as High as I could. The game loaded, and played fine with 11803 animations, no problem. But 4.1 stops me at 10400. The game is hard coded at 12000 animations for Humanoid, and 12000 animations for Creature's and 4.0 seems to test out that fact very well as I can load, and play 11803 humanoid animations with 4.0 no problem. But only 10400 with 4.1.
DonQuiWho Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, Nazzzgul666 said: The thing is, if AAs are the problem, it won't help to uninstall all of your slal packs - But it does. Look at my post below this ? The AA count problem seems to be another thing altogether
Kimy Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 2 minutes ago, Nazzzgul666 said: The thing is, if AAs are the problem, I really fail to see how. The total number of AA in DD is well below the danger zone, even combined with other popular mods having AA. And AA is proven to work. PCEA2 and Sexy Move have been using them for years, and DD 4.0 has been out for a long time, too. 2 minutes ago, Nazzzgul666 said: That doesn't mean i expect drastic changes to DD just for testing, but since the jump from 4.0 to 4.1 did make it much worse appearently, imho it's a good place to look at what might be the reason. Even if it's just a bug and doesn't bring us much enlightment about the limits, it's still worth a look i think. And also even if it is a bug in DD, i don't expect an urgent hotfix, but especially with increasing contents a working long term solution anywhere between DD4.2 and DD5.0.would be nice. If it's a bug, it will be fixed, but right now we have no idea why e.g. Galgat has these issues, while many other people can confirm DD to have exactly the footprint it's expected to have. If it would be a DD issue, I'd have expected to see the problem in ALL installations, not just a select few. 1
Supertin Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 42 minutes ago, Nazzzgul666 said: Another thought might be (and at this point i hope i didn't get it totally wrong, but i'm really not sure) to avoid AAs if possible. I'll explain what i understood so far: There are offsets and AAs. AAs are prefered to items because they somehow ensure better the animation is used as intented, and DD switched from offsets to AA with DD4.0. Did i get that right so far? If yes, i hope i'm not to bold if i suggest to go back to offsets in parts (i.e for some items), not only because of the limits. I've noticed some other stuff i don't like that much. - sneaking: i have the "crawl on fours" animation installed that replaces sneaking. In earlier DD versions, that meant that i was crawling with my hands at my back if wearing an armbinder which i agree that it looks unrealistic but still fun. And realism is neither the reason i added all those mods nor i play Skyrim in the first place. If i wouldn't like the crawling, i wouldn't install it. - running: my animation to run is replaced too when wearing armbinders. It's not that it looks bad, but i like my common running animation a lot better. It took me some years and a lot of tests to find it and i don't see why arms behind my back should cause my legs move 10 times faster than without. It doesn't fit especially in comparison, and if not necessary i'd prefer it not to be overwritten. That is, not more than neccessary of course. For items like hobble dresses and straight jackets with leg binders AA makes totally sense since it's meant to change the default running. DD used alternate animations well before 4.0. DD will never go back to using offsets for wrist restraints. The offset method is outdated, unreliable extremely restricting (and not in a good way, it limits heavily what you can do with it technically) There are way too many issues and wonky workarounds involved with offsets to use them outside of perhaps a few fringe cases. Wrist restraints aren't one of them. 42 minutes ago, Nazzzgul666 said: It's not like armbinders and stuff were totally buggy in v3, so i think this change might not be necessary in every case. I totally admit that i have little to no clue about this stuff and i might be missing one or even hundreds of important reasons, i just mention this in case i don't, hoping it also would fix the animation limit at least partly. Because as far as i can tell from my experience, the limits for AAs are much more important than the animation limit in total for SLAL packs etc. Not only in means of "it crashes" but also in means of "wich mods can i add", i totally agree that i can dismiss one or the other SLAL pack, but when i can't add my prefered running/walking + DD + a mod like SLAV which adds several of it's own animations and maybe a fighting mod, this indeed sounds bad. Again - no clue but as a final thought, don't know the reason why there is DD_list, DD2_list, DDSL_list, but could it be possible that either those lists somehow still "mention" it all and count more towards the limit than necessary (like fore mentioned they count as 3 seperate mods to FNIS)? A look at this or if this seperation in three packs is actually necessary by somebody with a clue might show some potential for improvement. Animation replacers don't count toward any kind of limits btw. You can replace every single vanilla animation in skyrim and it would have zero impact on anything fnis related. There's a misconception in the current discussion anyway, technically the limits are behaviour related and not a limit in terms of actual animation files (.hkx) the game can load. There's nothing to improve in the folder structure, unless fore makes changes to fnis that somehow lead to more efficiency or something. The reason there's 3 folders is because the setup in fnis allows only for xxx# with xxx being 3 letters to name the prefix of the AAsets and # being a number 0-9. So there's only 10 slots possible per folder. And if you require more you have to setup another one. 2
DonQuiWho Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 6 minutes ago, Supertin said: There's a misconception in the current discussion anyway, technically the limits are behaviour related and not a limit in terms of actual animation files (.hkx) the game can load. Is there any way you can explain this simply for us? It might help with a lot of the queries Think of any explanation as being pitched at a level which is comprehensible to a clodhopper like me ?
galgat Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Kimy said: There is nothing in my code that could remotely cause such a problem in FNIS. The only part of DD that interacts with the FNIS generator are the FNIS definition files itself. I didn't change these in a while, so if the development version worked for you before, they still should. As I said I only had 10366 animations installed when i played the Dev version, that is why I guess 10400 is where DDI4.1 limits me. As I when I first tried to run DDI4.1 I had 10566 animation's installed and it crashed. I did take notes when I was testing the Dev version, and that is how I remember this numbers.
Supertin Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 14 minutes ago, galgat said: But 4.1 stops me at 10400. The game is hard coded at 12000 animations for Humanoid, and 12000 animations for Creature's and 4.0 seems to test out that fact very well as I can load, and play 11803 humanoid animations with 4.0 no problem. But only 10400 with 4.1. That is not a fact. The game is not hard coded to limit at 12000 animations. The limit is on the behaviour side anyway and it can differ greatly between load orders. Not even fore knows the exact details and reasons at the moment and he is about the only person who I would trust on this matter to make any concrete statements. Please don't spread misinformation, there's enough of it already. In time it might become clearer what the exact reasons are for the different breaking points people get across are, but for now nobody knows. 2
Tyrant99 Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 25 minutes ago, Nazzzgul666 said: Did you start a new game or upgrade mid game? When you and galgat get different outcomes what FNIS counts, maybe it's a bug in FNIS rather than DD. Maybe FNIS can't handle (certain) upgrades very well, or... i have no clue. Which mod manager? There's nothing ambiguous about the fact that there's exactly 217 additional .HKX files. Anybody can go count them comparing DD 4.0 and DD 4.1 and find the exact same thing. - It's nothing more or less than a mathematical fact. Galgat is doing tests based on overall animation loads and game stability. This is more subjective so may or may not produce anything repeatable or mathematically consistent for different systems. The issue Galgat is having is more likely to have to do with certain categories of animations hitting internal limits in Skyrim's Engine and/or interfering with each other (possibly). It would be interesting to know what's causing the issue, but it would also be fairly difficult to track down.
Nazzzgul666 Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 On 6/6/2018 at 11:43 AM, fore said: Ok, I found the problem. NO NEED TO SEND ME ANY DATA for testing. There are indeed many limits for AA, and FNIS is checking for them. Sort of. Unfortunately in this case FNIS is checking the wrong variable. You hit a hard limit, only that FNIS isn't showing a proper message. Like almost always in these cases, there is this 128 elements array limit. And therefore you can only have 128 Sets defined (with "AAset" in the FNIS list files). PCEA2 usually has 30 to 40, SM only 2, XPMSE 16, the DD version I have 14. So these are about 70. And your successful FNIS log already shows 105. So it'S very likely that you have passed the 128 with your removed mods. I hope fore will forgive me for this quote that doesn't require his attention. Narv, forum is messing with me. @Supertin This is the thing i was refering to. Additionally: On 6/6/2018 at 11:39 PM, hylysi said: As there are 3 different FNIS DDi 4.1 beta animation lists, would these not also count towards that limit? 14 AAset in FNIS_DD_List.txt 14 AAset in FNIS_DD2_List.txt 14 AAset in FNIS_DD3_List.txt Also, looking at the FNIS_FNISSexyMove_List.txt, there are 3 AAset listed in the file and not the 2 you mentioned. Are there 3 used or is there a special rule that brings it down to 2? On 6/7/2018 at 3:50 PM, fore said: You're right, with SM it is 3 now when you use the 360 pack. And of course all 3 DD versions count. From FNIS point of view these are3 different mods. So DD has 3 files with AA sets. I'm not sure if these are 14 in total, or actually 14 for each. In any ways FNIS still seems to count those as each, so if it's in total there hopefully is a better way. Like, setting 10 sets in one file, 5 in a second. If it's actually meant as 14 each, well... i guess that's how it is. I regret offsets are considered deprecated, like mentioned i have some reasons i partly liked them better aside from any limits, but if you say so i (have no choice than ;)) believe you. But if DD actually uses 42 out of 128 in total using offsets if possible will hopefully be considered in future updates, it's not too bad yet but...
Supertin Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 6 minutes ago, donkeywho said: Is there any way you can explain this simply for us? It might help with a lot of the queries Think of any explanation as being pitched at a level which is comprehensible to a clodhopper like me ? The simplest explanation is that FNIS adds entries for each animation file you add to your game to the behaviour files. If you have your game load 10000+ animations that's a lot of information to add to the behaviour files. I think most of it is added to the 0_master.hkx. Let's say you imagine this behaviour file as a sheet of paper to write on and the actual animation files as the words you are writing on this paper. Eventually if you write down enough words there will be no more space left to fit any more. The space you are running out of is the limit you are running into if you add too many animations to your game. Although the exact reason why you ran out of space is not clear at the moment. In this exaple that could mean that you don't know what size of your sheet of paper is and that the size of your sheet of paper could be different from others depending on unknown factors. These unknown factors could be that certain animation files will take up more space than others in the behaviours so you run out of space faster, to stick with the example the words your writing might be longer or shorter. There could be a number of unknown factors (hence they're not known). If you want a more technically proficient explanation, you should probably ask fore. There's not many people who know their way around behaviour files, so that's your best bet (perhaps only for now) if you want to have a better understanding. 1
Supertin Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 3 minutes ago, Nazzzgul666 said: I hope fore will forgive me for this quote that doesn't require his attention. Narv, forum is messing with me. @Supertin This is the thing i was refering to. Additionally: So DD has 3 files with AA sets. I'm not sure if these are 14 in total, or actually 14 for each. In any ways FNIS still seems to count those as each, so if it's in total there hopefully is a better way. Like, setting 10 sets in one file, 5 in a second. If it's actually meant as 14 each, well... i guess that's how it is. I regret offsets are considered deprecated, like mentioned i have some reasons i partly liked them better aside from any limits, but if you say so i (have no choice than ;)) believe you. But if DD actually uses 42 out of 128 in total using offsets if possible will hopefully be considered in future updates, it's not too bad yet but... It's 14 for each. Splitting them up differently or shuffling the used slots around makes no difference. So yes that's 42, and it will stay at 42 most likely forever. The 14 AA sets refers to the way fnis categorizes animations into sets and not to how DD has AA different AA 'sets' for the different heavy bondage restraints. We have 30 slots available 10 per folder/"mod", at the moment 18 are actively used so we have 12 left to use. Slots are different from what fnis refers to as sets. We can use these 12 slots to add more AA variants without increasing the amount of sets we use as long as we use only the same sets that we are already using. With the current plans we have those 12 slots are more than likely enough to add everything we want to DD. Potentially the way sets are defined for FNIS AAs could be improved, but I can't really comment on that. It's something that fore would have to change in fnis itself. For example there's a set with only mt_idle in it that could be combined with another set. That being said there could be a good reason for why he grouped the the way he did and/or it might be to troublesome to make these changes retroactively. 1
galgat Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 31 minutes ago, Supertin said: That is not a fact. The game is not hard coded to limit at 12000 animations. The limit is on the behaviour side anyway and it can differ greatly between load orders. Not even fore knows the exact details and reasons at the moment and he is about the only person who I would trust on this matter to make any concrete statements. Please don't spread misinformation, there's enough of it already. In time it might become clearer what the exact reasons are for the different breaking points people get across are, but for now nobody knows. it may not be, but it is what we are commonly taught here, I guess have to make a point though. and I concur. but as I said the DDI version 4.0 test's this theory pretty closely as with it I ran 11803 successfully. but with DDI4.1 I have to reduce my animations by about 1600 to run it. and I am using far less animations as zaz 7 only has 895, and zaz 8 has 1731. and I also added far more SLAL to the 4.0 test, which ran very well at 11803 animations. But the 4.1 refused to load a game with more than 10400 or there about. EDIT >>> what I am trying to find out is what is different, I am not at odds with DDI adding 270 animations, but I am troubled by this problem, and would like to fully understand it. It is costing me way more than 270 animations.
DonQuiWho Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 20 minutes ago, Supertin said: The simplest explanation is that FNIS adds entries for each animation file you add to your game to the behaviour files. If you have your game load 10000+ animations that's a lot of information to add to the behaviour files. I think most of it is added to the 0_master.hkx. Let's say you imagine this behaviour file as a sheet of paper to write on and the actual animation files as the words you are writing on this paper. Eventually if you write down enough words there will be no more space left to fit any more. The space you are running out of is the limit you are running into if you add too many animations to your game. Although the exact reason why you ran out of space is not clear at the moment. In this exaple that could mean that you don't know what size of your sheet of paper is and that the size of your sheet of paper could be different from others depending on unknown factors. These unknown factors could be that certain animation files will take up more space than others in the behaviours so you run out of space faster, to stick with the example the words your writing might be longer or shorter. There could be a number of unknown factors (hence they're not known). If you want a more technically proficient explanation, you should probably ask fore. There's not many people who know their way around behaviour files, so that's your best bet (perhaps only for now) if you want to have a better understanding. That's really helpful, thanks So, to use another picture, it sounds a bit like having a big cylinder, in which are multiple compartments with 'floating' dividers, each of which compartments may vary in volume, and as you feed liquid into any compartment, the others can then either take less if the total cylinder volume is not yet used up, but you can still maybe feed in no more if the compartment being fed is now at any hard full limit set for it, or have to get rid of content elsewhere, or if the whole is now full and can't take in any more without that happening And to add to the joys, nobody knows what the upper (or lower) limits are for any compartment, or even the actual size of the total cylinder But everybody does know that if you manage to inadvertently overpressurise one, or some, or all of the individual compartments, or the whole thing, it blows up
galgat Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 my test only show that DDI4.1 is adding approximately 217 animations. but that figure was determined with the Dev version i have not counted them in the 4.1 release. DDI4 had 1025, and DDI4.1 showed to have 1242 It just does not make sense to me. And I am looking for and answer, not prosecution. It is a help thread after all, and that is what i am seeking.
Reesewow Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, donkeywho said: That's really helpful, thanks So, to use another picture, it sounds a bit like having a big cylinder, in which are multiple compartments with 'floating' dividers, each of which compartments may vary in volume, and as you feed liquid into any compartment, the others can then either take less if the total cylinder volume is not yet used up, but you can still maybe feed in no more if the compartment being fed is now at any hard full limit set for it, or have to get rid of content elsewhere, or if the whole is now full and can't take in any more without that happening And to add to the joys, nobody knows what the upper (or lower) limits are for any compartment, or even the actual size of the total cylinder But everybody does know that if you manage to inadvertently overpressurise one, or some, or all of the individual compartments, or the whole thing, it blows up Sounds like a reasonable analogy, which to kind of attempt to answer @galgat - I don't think anyone could explain exactly why you are seeing the specific numbers you are without being an expert in Skyrim's engine and behavior files and also having unlimited access to your particular setup. Why you are losing that exact capacity on upgrading to 4.1 probably depends on more factors than just the number of animations added by DD's upgrade, or even their type. For instance, it would be interesting if you ran the same subjective experiment on an AA adding mod like PCEA2 or FNIS Sexy Moves and see if adding those mods has a similar effect on "max" animation counts, but I don't think it would necessarily be a good use of your time. However, unless someone finds a specific "bug" in DD that is causing extra FNIS load issues, I think at this point we just have to understand that numbers don't matter as much understanding a crash = "too much". Remember that talking about anything over 10k is already into FORE's "danger zone" and if he had stuck to his guns and never offered FNIS XXL we wouldn't have the benefit of trying to squash a few hundered extra animations in between load orders. 1
Nazzzgul666 Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 16 minutes ago, Supertin said: It's 14 for each. Splitting them up differently or shuffling the used slots around makes no difference. So yes that's 42, and it will stay at 42 most likely forever. Oh, ok. So while i still think my worries weren't totally unreasonable, it sounds like the longterm solution i considered necessary is already there. I was hoping it might have been some kind of mistake and you'd actually just need 14, that would have been a huge difference to 42. But it sounds like it would cost fore a lot of work to reach a decrease of maybe 1-5... and that doesn't sound like it's worth it even if backwards compatibility and everything could be kept. @galgat Did you consider the whole AA set thing? to me it sounds like you're rather hitting that than any other limit. I'm not sure which 12k limit you're refering to - afaik that was never a Skyrim limit but one of FNIS - which is gone at least if you use the XXl version, and i believe 12k is outdated quite a while now regardless of the version. Been using XXl since years now, though, no idea where the limit is for other versions. For testing you might remove any mod that uses AA sets except DD and see how many SLAL packs you can add then. Like PCEA, FNIS sexy move, probably some Nexus mods like that TK dodge mod or similars.
ttpt Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 ok, I'm not super great at reading the FNIS logs so I'll just post a comparison between the stuff that works and the stuff that doesn't by changing only from DD40 to DD41 and nothing else With DD4.0 this is the important stuff that I get Reading DD V4.0.0 ( 0 furniture, 0 offset, 0 paired, 0 kill, 0 chair, 472 alternate animations) ... Reading DD2 V4.0.0 ( 0 furniture, 0 offset, 0 paired, 0 kill, 0 chair, 330 alternate animations) ... All Anim Lists scanned. Generating Behavior Files... 1 GENDER modifications for Animations\male 173 GENDER modifications for Animations\female Alternate Animation mods: 14 sets: 76 total groups: 298 added file slots: 1801 alternate files: 1260 10945 animations for 45 mods successfully included (character). 3608 animations for 7 mods and 43 creatures successfully included.. With DD4.1 Reading DD V4.0.0 ( 0 furniture, 0 offset, 0 paired, 0 kill, 0 chair, 493 alternate animations) ... Reading DD2 V4.0.0 ( 0 furniture, 0 offset, 0 paired, 0 kill, 0 chair, 330 alternate animations) ... Reading DD3 V4.1.0 ( 0 furniture, 0 offset, 0 paired, 0 kill, 0 chair, 102 alternate animations) ... All Anim Lists scanned. Generating Behavior Files... 1 GENDER modifications for Animations\male 173 GENDER modifications for Animations\female Alternate Animation mods: 15 sets: 90 total groups: 396 added file slots: 2578 alternate files: 1383 11162 animations for 46 mods successfully included (character). 3608 animations for 7 mods and 43 creatures successfully included.. Which makes for a difference of yes 11162-10945=217 animations which seems correct. Alternate files seems to go from 1383-1260=160. One set added with DD3 which I suspect is what makes things go from 76+14=90. Total groups from 298 to 396. And the file slot change which goes from 1801 to 2578 which seems like the biggest spike and probably the culprit, but I don't really know for sure. Just tossing this out here in case it's helpful.
galgat Posted June 11, 2018 Posted June 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Nazzzgul666 said: Oh, ok. So while i still think my worries weren't totally unreasonable, it sounds like the longterm solution i considered necessary is already there. I was hoping it might have been some kind of mistake and you'd actually just need 14, that would have been a huge difference to 42. But it sounds like it would cost fore a lot of work to reach a decrease of maybe 1-5... and that doesn't sound like it's worth it even if backwards compatibility and everything could be kept. @galgat Did you consider the whole AA set thing? to me it sounds like you're rather hitting that than any other limit. I'm not sure which 12k limit you're refering to - afaik that was never a Skyrim limit but one of FNIS - which is gone at least if you use the XXl version, and i believe 12k is outdated quite a while now regardless of the version. Been using XXl since years now, though, no idea where the limit is for other versions. For testing you might remove any mod that uses AA sets except DD and see how many SLAL packs you can add then. Like PCEA, FNIS sexy move, probably some Nexus mods like that TK dodge mod or similars. I have considered those thing's, but for the difference to be so great between the two version's, it just does not really add up. I used the same profile for each, and I added boo coo's of extra animations to the 4.0 version, and it still loaded. I just do not see that. but it does not add up. 11803 animations with 4.0, and suddenly 4.1 pop's at 10400. That is such a huge difference. and troubling as the only real difference between my test's is that I added a huge amount of extra animations to the 4.0 and it ran fine. They were both the same profile. I mean nearly 1600 animations lost is a lot. if this happens this time, as i said be for what will happen if they add another two or three animations to DDI. will the number double. Something is wrong. I do not know what, but something is not right. I mean 217 animations suddenly cost' almost 1600, that is pretty explosive. EDIT >>> by the way I have never ran PCEA, I do not use any alternate animations at all. except for FNIS sexy Moves. EDIT >>> Here is the load order, but this is the working DDI4.1 which is limited to under or about 10400. EDIT >>> give me a little and I will Bump a FNIS output. EDIT >>> Here is FNIS OutPut FNIS Behavior V7.4.4 XXL 6/11/2018 7:23:04 PM Skyrim 32bit: 1.9.32.0 - c:\steamdir\steam\steamapps\common\Skyrim\ (Steam) Skeleton(hkx) female: XPMS2HDT (115 bones) male: XPMS2HDT (115 bones) Patch: "GENDER Specific Animations" Patch: "SKELETON Arm Fix" Reading AnimationsByLeito V1.0 ... Reading Anubs Human V1.0 ... Reading Billyy_Creature V1.0 ... Reading Billyy_Creature2 V1.0 ... Reading Billyy_CreatureFurniture V1.0 ... Reading Billyy_Human V1.0 ... Reading Billyy_HumanFurniture V1.0 ... Reading DD V4.0.0 ( 0 furniture, 0 offset, 0 paired, 0 kill, 0 chair, 493 alternate animations) ... Reading DD2 V4.0.0 ( 0 furniture, 0 offset, 0 paired, 0 kill, 0 chair, 330 alternate animations) ... Reading DD3 V4.1.0 ( 0 furniture, 0 offset, 0 paired, 0 kill, 0 chair, 102 alternate animations) ... Reading DDSL V4.0.0 ... Reading FNIS V5.1.1 ... Reading FNISBase V7.4.4 ... Reading FNISCreatureVersion V6.1 ... Reading FNISSexyMove V6.1 ( 0 furniture, 0 offset, 0 paired, 0 kill, 0 chair, 18 alternate animations) ... Reading FunnyBizAmp V8.0 ... Reading FunnyBizBeastly V1.0 ... Reading FunnyBizBound V12.0 ... Reading FunnyBizCB V1.0 ... Reading FunnyBizFC V10.0 ... Reading FunnyBizFemDom V1.0 ... Reading FunnyBizFun V12.0 ... Reading FunnyBizGroup V8.0 ... Reading FunnyBizMC V1.0 ... Reading FunnyBizMolag V1.0 ... Reading FunnyBizNecro V10.0 ... Reading FunnyBizRape V11.0 ... Reading FunnyBizUn V12.0 ... Reading K4Anims V1.0 ... Reading MoreNastyCritters V1.0 ... Reading Necro V1.6 ... Reading NibblesAnims V1.0 ... Reading P1FlyingRing V?.? ... Reading ProxyAnims V1.0 ... Reading RohZima V1.0 ... Reading SH_animFurn V1.0 ... Reading SRBCreatures V1.0 ... Reading SexLab V1.62 ... Reading SexLabAroused V?.? ... Reading SexLabCreature V1.61 ... Reading XPMSE V7.2 ( 0 furniture, 0 offset, 0 paired, 0 kill, 0 chair, 164 alternate animations) ... Reading ZaZAnimationPack V7.00 ( 26 furniture, 29 offset, 0 paired, 0 kill, 0 chair, 0 alternate animations) ... Reading znarokspack V1.0 ... All Anim Lists scanned. Generating Behavior Files... 108 GENDER modifications for Animations\male 108 GENDER modifications for Animations\female Alternate Animation mods: 5 sets: 59 total groups: 291 added file slots: 2186 alternate files: 1107 Create Creature Behaviors ... Reading MoreNastyCritters V1.0 ... Reading Billyy_Creature2 V1.0 ... Reading Billyy_Creature V1.0 ... Reading FunnyBizFC V1.0 ... Reading FunnyBizMC V1.0 ... Reading NibblesAnims V1.0 ... Reading SexLabCreature V1.62 ... Reading FunnyBizCB V1.0 ... Reading Billyy_CreatureFurniture V1.0 ... Reading K4Anims V?.? ... Reading Necro V?.? ... Reading SH_animFurn V1.0 ... Reading SRBCreatures V1.0 ... 10295 animations for 43 mods successfully included (character) 3555 animations for 13 mods and 43 creatures successfully included. # This file was automatically generated by Mod Organizer. Skyrim.esm Update.esm Dawnguard.esm HearthFires.esm Dragonborn.esm SGHairPackBase.esm ApachiiHairFemales.esm ApachiiHair.esm Heels Sound.esm hdtHighHeel.esm ZaZAnimationPack.esm SexLab.esm SexLabAroused.esm Schlongs of Skyrim - Core.esm Devious Devices - Assets.esm Devious Devices - Integration.esm Devious Devices - Expansion.esm CreatureFramework.esm SkyUI.esp UIExtensions.esp AddItemMenu.esp Animated Dragon Wings.esp Auto Unequip Ammo.esp AMatterOfTime.esp SlaveTats.esp UnreadBooksGlow.esp PassiveWeaponEnchantmentRecharging.esp Unlimited Training.esp No More Glowing Edges.esp MoreNastyCritters.esp HentaiCreatures.esp AllowPCDialogue.esp SexLabWerewolves.esp CWneutral.esp TalvasScriptSpammerFix.esp RaceMenu.esp RaceMenuPlugin.esp RaceMenuMorphsUUNP.esp 12FemaleBrows.esp Nordic Warmaiden Body Hair.esp XPMSE.esp Schlongs of Skyrim.esp SOS - B3lisario UNP Addon.esp SOS - VectorPlexus Regular Addon.esp SLAnimLoader.esp AnubAnimObj.esp SLALAnimObjBillyy.esp NibblesAnimObjects.esp SLAL_ProxyAnimObjects.esp SLAL_K4Anims.esp SLAL_SHanimAnimObj.esp RohZima_AnimObjects.esp SLALAnimObj.esp FNIS.esp FNISSexyMove.esp Craftable and Placeable Havok-enabled Bedrolls .esp SGHairPackAIO.esp Remodeled Armor - Underwear.esp Remodeled Armor - Vanilla Replacer - Dawnguard.esp Remodeled Armor - Vanilla Replacer - Dragonborn.esp Remodeled Armor - Vanilla Replacer.esp mcgDwarvenDeviousCuirass.esp Zipsuit.esp StoneheartStudio Jewelry.esp SissySuite.esp Tiwa44_Minidresses.esp Tiwa44_Minidresses_Dragonborn.esp TimingIsEverything.esp Luxury Collection.esp amk Border Lace Lingerie.esp Dwarvenbikini.esp P1FlyingRing.esp Luxury Collection Vendor.esp TheEyesOfBeauty.esp GGFriendlyWhore.esp
ragnam Posted June 12, 2018 Posted June 12, 2018 how I have seen FNIS count animations that are left over folders from mods and esps. my mistake I deleted the esps but not the folders to those old mods..... sooo made me think this.... I have an idea, a long time ago there was a mod like funny biz cat house mod like 3 years ago, I followed the manual install of the zip. a few weeks later after testing it I manually deleted the esp. HOWEVER FNIS at the time will still call/count or could see all of those non used animations even though the esp did not call them into game. I had do the same thing with AP scripts....and deleted the the AP esp but never removed the actual animation from my build that somehow FNIS would still scan and or count , bottom line FNIS was still acknowledging unused animations not called into the game. When testing PAHE I had many conflicts in papyrus, after several attempts trying to figure out how FNIS was saying I had AP and FunnyBiz animation conflict with new mods and I have not had those two installed for over a year or the esps. When I manual found the left over mod folders for FB and AP and deleted the animations folders and stuff, Fnis finally stop reading them in the build and my counts/conflicts dropped off and I had no more issues. (week of pulling hair out finding old left over folders and files) THIS brings me to wonder, with all the various selections this 4.1 has, are you installing all the animations and only dropping in the selected esps which are chosen. and from those esp will only call on some of the animations which are install? or do you only install ONLY the animations that are selected with the choice? I was wondering if you drop them all in the build maybe FNIS is reading all the animations while you might only be using some for each esp chosen? that why I wonder if you say the largest choice might have 270 , but did the install have over a 1000+ total animations for all of the possiable selections of choices dropped into the game build? My best guess is that FNIS read file types in the game build area, not what the esps call for or ticked active esps. I might try that next time (maybe this Tuesday evening) I select default choice for both DDi 4.1, I should not find this version installing all the various combinations animations into my game build right?
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