Deviously Cursed Loot LE 9.0 (2021-03-09)

[Laura]

49 minutes ago, Inte said:

Let me preface what I have to say with this; technically you are correct and within your ‘rights’ to say that you do not want your intellectual property modified or changed in any way (even if it is for the better). 

 

But what if, 

...@Zadil (the originator of devious devices), felt the same, and didn’t allow @Min to use the DD assets to make them usable for all? Where would the DD community be? 
...@Min (the originator of DDi), before leaving would have said the same thing, “Kimy (or whoever) you are not allowed to make any changes to my DDi and my “vision”?”
...@xaz (the originator of PO and the code in ZAP, among other numerous code contributions for a lot of mods) would have said, “Inte, you cannot continue or touch PO (POP) in any way, it’s my vision, nor can you learn how to code because I will make PO and ZAP a ‘closed source’”.  
...@ZaZ (the originator of ZAP) would have prohibited @t.ara from continuing ZAP?  
...@jbezorg (the originator of SD) would have said, “Skyrimll @DeepBlueFrog, you cannot continue SD because it is my vision.”
...@DeepBlueFrog would have said, “Inte, you are not allowed to patch SD, if you do I will consider that a hostile act.”
...and on, and on.
...and finally Bethesda, would have said that same thing. 

 

They would be within their rights to stop their intellectual property form being modified, no? But, what would this community be composed of then? Tumbleweeds?

 

So, without this 'community' that you seem to disdain so much who would you be? 

 

So get over yourself and if you do not want to mod anymore, someone else will and can take your place. 
No one is irreplaceable. 

I don't know why Kimy didn't make the prison system optional. I would have done it differently.

But Kimy is completely within her right to do what she wants. It doesn't matter what people think, the mod creator always has all the power over their own mod.

 

Both @Inte and @Kimy have a point.

But this feud between you two has gotten personal and nasty. Nothing good will come from it like this.

It's best to let this be for a while, so you can come together when you don't want to strangle eachother anymore.

This has been going on for too long now, please leave this be. Neither of you is going to change their mind and it's only going to get nastier.

[gollum007]

I agree fully.

I have an opinion on the whole patch business, but frankly at this point it's not likely to be helpful

 

Seriously though-

Both sides have a valid point in their own way, and this has got 'pointlessly' (sorry....) nasty, with the true issues being lost somewhere in the noise.

 

One of the joys of Skyrim is being able to mod a game to meet your own preferences.

Restricting this is nothing but a loss for the users and fans of both mods.

[PenBoozerX]

Running into a weird interaction with the enemy-surrender function. Everything else works correctly, except when choosing the option to "kill" the surrendering opponent. Every time I choose that option, the enemy just vanished off the face of the earth! No body or anything. Any idea what's happening there?

It's easy to work around it by just smashing their face instead of initiating dialog though so no big deal, still pretty weird.

[Inte]

2 hours ago, Laura 'Lokomootje' said:

But Kimy is completely within her right to do what she wants. It doesn't matter what people think, the mod creator always has all the power over their own mod.

I never said otherwise. 

What I did say is if all modders would be this obtuse about their mods, the community here will be no more.  

For example, @MaikCG did a very similar thing on DDe support thread, by showing players how to make DDe work with DDi 4 (adding a keyword). But did I consider that as hostile? No. In fact I was so pleased about it, I’ve implemented that very suggestion in the next version of DDe, benefitting both the users of DDe and DDi 4.   

 

If we start monopolizing our own mods, it will spell the end of the modding community as a whole.  

[Naps-On-Dirt]

Has anyone tried to start Devious Cidhna on a new game with DCL 8 installed?  There might be an incompatability introduced, but I'm not sure.  What is happening is that once you return to the Temple of Talos in Markarth the final time, when the guards are waiting and Eltrys is dead, the guard that is supposed to forcegreet you instead just walks out and continues his patrol.  If you try to talk to him he just says something like "You have been warned."  If you attack him or another guard and surrender to get sent to prison anyway,  you get there but Borkul doesn't have the line to start Devious Cidhna ("Can't we come to some arrangement" or something.) 

 

Could someone else check to see if it works on their game?

 

Edit:  If I rush forward as soon as I get into the temple the forcegreet takes place, so maybe this is just some wonky script timing misfiring. I was worried that DCL 8's new prison integration was interfering, but maybe its not.

 

[Psalam]

Quote

11 minutes ago, Inte said:

I never said otherwise. 

What I did say is if all modders would be this obtuse about their mods, the community here will be no more.  

For example, @MaikCG did a very similar thing on DDe support thread, by showing players how to make DDe work with DDi 4 (adding a keyword). But did I consider that as hostile? No. In fact I was so pleased about it, I’ve implemented that very suggestion in the next version of DDe, benefitting both the users of DDe and DDi 4.   

 

If we start monopolizing our own mods, it will spell the end of the modding community as a whole.  

 

There is certainly a risk involved in "monopolizing our own mods." Throughout most of human history that has been the norm. We have a technological advantage and we are not going to share. And, among other things, it was the sharing of knowledge through colleges/universities, societies, journals, etc. that allowed the modern rapid advancement in many scientific fields.

 

However, there is another side to the same coin. In countries where there is no control over your own intellectual property, technological development has consistently been slower (unless your spy network got hold of something useful). People who innovate are given control over their innovation even when it would appear to most observers that sharing that would be in the best interest in society as a whole (can we say new drug patents?). These persist because it is recognized that a large impetus to develop would be gone if we simply "take" what someone else developed.

 

I note that in your response to Kimy you said that she is "within her rights." As I just pointed out, I agree. Would I like to see more and better mods? Yes, I would. Do I believe that anybody just changing someone else's mod without their permission is the way to accomplish that. No, I don't.  There were a number of other ways that MaikCG could have handled this. While I applaud his stated intention to help others "work around" what he perceives as a defect in DCL there are any number of ways (one of which I already mentioned in another post) that he could have handled this.

 

Your representation of what others have done in the past is impressive. It is equally true, perhaps more true, that there are many, many mods that have been abandoned (effectively if not actually) by their authors and are still present here and on Nexus. Those are also part of the heritage that got this community to where it is now. When people with good intentions have brought this topic up here on LL on numerous occasions the moderators have made it clear that you can not use someone else's mod (however much they may not be using it at the time) and make some changes and post it on your own. The word I have heard used for doing that is piracy. This principle should be considered even more sacrosanct when an author is actually maintaining and improving their mod.

 

In Real Life I have been approached any number of times with offers/suggestions of things that could "improve my life." I believe that most of these were well-intentioned, although I am sure that some were not. Regardless, with the exception of the State no one has been able to force me to change the manner in which I lived my life - whether I exercised, took medicine, drank alcohol and so on and so forth - which were meant for my benefit. I believe that this same principle should hold true for a mod's author even if I disagree with the decisions that they make.

[Kimy]

8 hours ago, Inte said:

Let me preface what I have to say with this; technically you are correct and within your ‘rights’ to say that you do not want your intellectual property modified or changed in any way (even if it is for the better). 

 

But what if, 

...@Zadil (the originator of devious devices), felt the same, and didn’t allow @Min to use the DD assets to make them usable for all? Where would the DD community be? 
...@Min (the originator of DDi), before leaving would have said the same thing, “Kimy (or whoever) you are not allowed to make any changes to my DDi and my “vision”?”
...@xaz (the originator of PO and the code in ZAP, among other numerous code contributions for a lot of mods) would have said, “Inte, you cannot continue or touch PO (POP) in any way, it’s my vision, nor can you learn how to code because I will make PO and ZAP a ‘closed source’”.  
...@ZaZ (the originator of ZAP) would have prohibited @t.ara from continuing ZAP?  
...@jbezorg (the originator of SD) would have said, “Skyrimll @DeepBlueFrog, you cannot continue SD because it is my vision.”
...@DeepBlueFrog would have said, “Inte, you are not allowed to patch SD, if you do I will consider that a hostile act.”
...and on, and on.
...and finally Bethesda, would have said that same thing. 

 

They would be within their rights to stop their intellectual property from being modified, no? But, what would this community be composed of then? Tumbleweeds?

 

So, without this 'community' that you seem to disdain so much who would you be? 

 

So get over yourself and if you do not want to mod anymore, someone else will and can take your place. 
No one is irreplaceable. 

First thing... you're off topic. This thread is about DCL, not DD. I will address your point anyway, because it is actually quite important.

 

Second, yes, a lot of people have allowed the maintainer of DD to use their assets. First Min. Later me.

Zadil is a special case, because his stuff is in a separate mod using a separate licence. DDA is considered a part of the DD framework for sure, but neither Min nor myself have ever claimed any sort of ownership on it. Zadils assets are used by DDI/DDX via a dependency.

The rest of the contributors gave DD the right to use their assets, but every artist retains rights their work. If you contribute an asset to DD, what you give us is an unlimited right to use it in any way we see fit (yes, including making changes to the models), but the assets are otherwise still theirs. Which is why I am referring everyone asking to use models or animations to their original creator.

Oh, and here is the important thing - they know and consent to that, because we talk about this to every. single. artist. that every contributed anything to DD. We don't add ANYTHING without consent.

 

I do assume you asked Xaz if you can take over his stuff. I suppose he said yes. If not, what you did would constitute theft, and I don't think you'd do such a thing any more than I would. Again. not a problem. You taking over this stuff is based on consent and respect.

 

People have patched DD or DCL in the past, too. I said yes every single time I got asked, the last time just the other day when somebody wanted to publish a patch for DD key crafting. The thing is that they ASKED. Which is the way to go. There is a patch for DCL I didn't get asked about, which is SLIF. Somebody asked me if this patch is violating the DCL licence. I answered this question with "yes", because it simply is. Did I have SLIF taken down because of it, or forced it to remove the DCL patch? Despite I am obviously aware of its existence? No, I did not. Because I looked at what it does and how its maintainer is handling it and deemed it not to be a problem. The difference between ALL these people and what MaikCG did was that their patches weren't meant to make my mod do what I EXPLICITLY said I don't want it to do. They were respectful to me and my work, MaikCG was not. Does this make any sense to you? At all?

 

What would destroy this community is not creators wishing to retain a minimum of control over what happens to their work. That's the most normal thing in the world. What would destroy it is if we stop treating each other respectfully. It's not the community I disdain. How could I? I am a part of it. It's the toxic, entitled and disrespectful parts of it.

[Kimy]

4 hours ago, Naps-On-Dirt said:

Has anyone tried to start Devious Cidhna on a new game with DCL 8 installed?

It should absolutely work. The DCL crime handling code is meant to be fully compatible with Devious Cidhna and will not take over crime in Markarth unless the Cidhna quest is completed.

 

[WhatRules]

Are you always safe from getting raped while sleeping at an inn? I set the slider to 100% just to see if it worked and nothing happens. But it works in dungeons and in the wilds.

[Inte]

1 hour ago, Kimy said:

First thing... you're off topic. This thread is about DCL, not DD. I will address your point anyway, because it is actually quite important.

It applies to both.

 

1 hour ago, Kimy said:

Second, yes, a lot of people have allowed the maintainer of DD to use their assets. First Min. Later me. ...

Yes, that is exactly my point. Other modders have allowed you to use their mods/assets together with yours, you do not; at least not in this case. If all modders would do the same and stop/block others from using their mods together, then all will fall apart. 
In case you’re confused again, you are blocking users/modders from using other prison mods together with yours. You are forcing them to choose between your mod and the other prison mods, when they don’t have to. This creates a divide in the community. Does this make any sense to you? Does it, hello?  

[crazyduck]

17 minutes ago, Inte said:

It applies to both.

 

Yes, that is exactly my point. Other modders have allowed you to use their mods/assets, you do not; at least not in this case. If all modders would do the same and stop/block others from using their mods together, then all will fall apart. 
In case you’re confused again, you are blocking users/modders from using other prison mods together with yours. You are forcing them to choose between your mod and the other prison mods, when they don’t have to. This creates a divide in the community. Does this make any sense to you? Does it, hello?  

I can understand that Kimy make the mod how she want to make it, its her mod, at same time i also understnad she is proud of new features like the crime system and the Prison itself.

But for me after i today tried again the Prison its nothing i like very much, not cause it takes some time until your prison time is over, but i dont like it cause its every day exact same routine no random stuff nothing , sure that problem is wiht all prison mods, also with your mod Inte it was not real random stuff happening but it took not that much time to end the prison time , breaking out was also easier (little bit to easy i think). 

 

I still think that Kimys Crime system can become really great also the Prison can become really great if (my opinion only) it become more random like not everyday same tasks and dialogues, possible one day only mine some ore and back to cell, other day make some food for the guards clean the prison back to cell .  But i still would like to use other mods or only vanilla guard dialogue if i think "no not this time again X days in kimys prison or POP prison or other Prison Mod"

 

But at same time inte, i dont get it i played with your mods sice long time and had no issues with dd4 so why its not compatible?

[Tron91]

@Kimy

 

You said anyone can make their own private patch, which I did, to test my skill at modding to which am fairly new. Now I can switch between your Prison and the Vanilla prison. Made a quick test run of your prison and a question came to my mind. Can you say the interactions/activities in the prison you chose for the PC are your own original idea or a re-rendered version from one of the popular mod we all know and have used?

 

 

 

[Kimy]

42 minutes ago, Inte said:

It applies to both.

 

Yes, that is exactly my point. Other modders have allowed you to use their mods/assets together with yours, you do not; at least not in this case. If all modders would do the same and stop/block others from using their mods together, then all will fall apart. 
In case you’re confused again, you are blocking users/modders from using other prison mods together with yours. You are forcing them to choose between your mod and the other prison mods, when they don’t have to. This creates a divide in the community. Does this make any sense to you? Does it, hello?  

I see that you didn't bother to read what I wrote, or ignore my point again, which you always do whenever it suits you.

 

The keyword was CONSENT.

[Inte]

6 hours ago, Psalam said:

I note that in your response to Kimy you said that she is "within her rights." As I just pointed out, I agree. Would I like to see more and better mods? Yes, I would. Do I believe that anybody just changing someone else's mod without their permission is the way to accomplish that. No, I don't. 

Technically @MaikCG did not change anything in DCL. That was left to the individual player. Just because you show somebody a gun, does not mean that you will be guilty if that somebody buys a gun and shoots some other body, afterwards. If that held true, then there will be no more movies, games, etc.  

 

[Kimy]

20 minutes ago, Tron91 said:

@Kimy

 

You said anyone can make their own private patch, which I did, to test my skill at modding to which am fairly new. Now I can switch between your Prison and the Vanilla prison. Made a quick test run of your prison and a question came to my mind. Can you say the interactions/activities in the prison you chose for the PC are your own original idea or a re-rendered version from one of the popular mod we all know and have used?

You know that there is a button in DCL that lets you use vanilla prisons, yes?

 

About your other question, I am not sure if that's not an attempt to troll me, so I will refrain from answering it, other than by saying that there is not a single line of code in this feature I didn't write myself.

[Kimy]

Just now, Inte said:

Technically @MaikCG did not change anything in DCL. That was left to the individual player. Just because you show somebody a gun, does not mean that you will be guilty if that somebody buys a gun and shoots some other body, afterwards. If that held true, then there will be more movies, games, etc.  

 

I realize that part, and I never accused him to have broken any rules. I objected to the part where people talk about how to butcher my mod against my will in my own thread.

[Tron91]

@Kimy, @Inte

 

It won't do any good to the modding community in here, if everyone tries to impose his/her will and opinion on each other. Collaboration is the main bonding factor in a community like us, which we got in here.

 

Yes, differences in opinion will come, and its good if it goes for a constructive solution, benefit to everyone. But, alas what has gone in this thread for the last few days, is very detrimental for the modding which goes in here. You both have been pulling each others leg and i admit that probably both of you have got your own opinions placed in front of everyone.

 

Now,  can you both reconcile your differences and come for a common solution? Would be good for everyone.

 

Both of you are mature people, rest is up to you!!

[Kimy]

9 minutes ago, Tron91 said:

Now,  can you both reconcile your differences and come for a common solution? Would be good for everyone.

 

Both of you are mature people, rest is up to you!!

I said multiple times that I will add back the POP integration people are asking for the moment Inte OFFICIALLY declares his mods compatible and tested with DD4, because it makes no sense to hand over the character to a mod that's uncertain to work with mine. Whether or not that will ever happen is 100% his choice and his call, because he has a right to call shots for his mods as much as do.

 

Supporting POP via DCL would even solve any other compatibility issue between POP and DCL, because DCL could make sure to hand the player to POP only when POP wouldn't clash with any DD items worn by the player (I do the same with my own prison). But it's STILL his choice.

[WhatRules]

1 hour ago, saltshade said:

Are you always safe from getting raped while sleeping at an inn? I set the slider to 100% just to see if it worked and nothing happens. But it works in dungeons and in the wilds.

You posted three comments after I posted this. Do I need a premium or patron account to get answers around here?

[Inte]

12 minutes ago, Kimy said:

I see that you didn't bother to read what I wrote, or ignore my point again, which you always do whenever it suits you.

 

The keyword was CONSENT.

No, despite of what you think of me, I do respect you as a modder to read your posts in their entirety. I also do not flip what is being said to fit my agenda. 

 

About consent, yes other modders have given you consent to moddify their mods and use them as you wish. However @MaikCG did not MODIFY any part of DCL. Or do we now need your CONSENT to look at any instructions, or if we wish to modify our own game as well? 

 

[Gräfin Zeppelin]

5 minutes ago, saltshade said:

You posted three comments after I posted this. Do I need a premium or patron account to get answers around here?

Throwing insults around makes people eager to answer your questions.

[Tron91]

4 minutes ago, saltshade said:

Do I need some a premium or patron account to get answers around here?

The lower the option, the lower the chance, depends how the weights are handled in the script.

 

Set Dungeon and Wilderness to 0% and City at 100%

[Kimy]

3 minutes ago, Gräfin Zeppelin said:

Throwing insults around makes people eager to answer your questions.

They actually just made sure that I won't.

 

I guess people can see that there is stuff going in this thread that currently takes most of my attention. More than I personally would prefer, but can't be helped...

[Tron91]

@Inte

 

Just make POP Compatible with DDi4 in the POP Homepage.

[MaikCG]

24 minutes ago, Kimy said:

You know that there is a button in DCL that lets you use vanilla prisons, yes?

And the payment of the fine and privilege Thane?