Deviously Cursed Loot LE 9.0 (2021-03-09)

[Kimy]

As far as the way forward goes: At this time, I have no plans to remove DCL from LL. But I WILL change its license to a much more restrictive one, courtesy of people that don't know how not to abuse freedoms. I also might or might not stop providing source code for DCL and make it available only to people I can trust not to abuse it to create hostile changes to my work. Not 100% decided on the latter. I will ponder it for a bit longer.

I also fully intend to break the hostile patch suggested by MaikCG a few pages back and make sure it will not work with any future version of DCL. The next version will not release before named hostile patch is guaranteed not to work anymore. For any delays caused by that, feel free to blame the person who posted it.

[cooldown1337]

Here's my valuable input:

Spoiler

lol

How can a tesvedit tweak be "hostile"? Are you going to introduce even more unstable script load to the game? I've been sitting on 6.3 for a while now and honestly I have no desire to update as new versions break old saves and I'd rather stick with my characters... Why not just add a toggle to prison functionality like you have for every other function of the mod?

[Laura]

Please, can we stop trying to fight fire with fire.

The right answer to hostility is almost never hostility.

Bashing and insulting eachother isn't going to get us anything good.

Let's just use this thread for suggestions, bug reports and feedback. Before the moderators sends us all to Dagonar Prison for breaking LL rules 1, 2 and 8.

 

Quote

https://www.loverslab.com/guidelines/

 

1.  The biggest and most important thing of this community is that the modders come first. They are the ones who make this community worth coming to, they are the ones enabling you to even play these mods.  Meaning if you don't like the way a mod is going, don't be a jerk about it, they can take the mod in whatever direction they want. Don't like it? Then make your own release and put the work in yourself. Find a bug or issue that needs to be fixed? Don't be a jerk about it and raise your concerns and feedback in a constructive manner.
 

2.  Don't be a jerk. Seriously, does this really need to be said?

 

8.  Bickering, drama queens, or publicly calling out a fellow forum member will not be tolerated. Posts/threads perpetrating any sort of attack or drama will be removed on sight and warnings given to involved parties. This is a forum for helping each other build and mod, leave the drama at the door.

 

Those that have something they want to say, please keep it respectful and constructive.

For those that are just really pissed at someone. Leave it to yourself, fighting will only make it worse.

 

Come on people, we know better than this.

[stas2503]

@Laura 'Lokomootje' Good words...

[crazyduck]

3 hours ago, Kimy said:

As far as the way forward goes: At this time, I have no plans to remove DCL from LL. But I WILL change its license to a much more restrictive one, courtesy of people that don't know how not to abuse freedoms. I also might or might not stop providing source code for DCL and make it available only to people I can trust not to abuse it to create hostile changes to my work. Not 100% decided on the latter. I will ponder it for a bit longer.

I also fully intend to break the hostile patch suggested by MaikCG a few pages back and make sure it will not work with any future version of DCL. The next version will not release before named hostile patch is guaranteed not to work anymore. For any delays caused by that, feel free to blame the person who posted it.

So just to be sure i understand you.

If someone dont alter a cursed loot file and distribute it as patch but tell people how to change something using TESEdit its for you a hostile patch? Really? Your Comment about Inte and full support for dd4 needed makes sense , but this again makes no sense sorry its exactly that what some people say , that you try to force people to decide which mods to use.

 

So tell me, what is your problem wiht that? It cant be that it break Cursed Loot or that it would break future Updates of the Mod, it also cant be that someone try to compete with you using your own Mod. So whats the reason?

Looks for me more like the Reason is someone find a easy way without uploading a patched file somewhere how 2 mods can work together  , seems thats for you the most horrible thing.

 

You said some Posts ago to me if i want to make a Patch for myself thats fine as long as i dont upload it somewhere, no one uploaded a patch and still you call it a hostile patch, so is for you every guide and tutorial how to use TESEdit to Modify something a hostile Patch or only if someone use it to make POP work with Cursed Loot again?

 

 

Sounds for me like you never had planned someone really change it , would explain why you now want to close possible ways to patch it.

 

 

 

 

 

[GenioMaestro]

I have DCL 7.5 and i want upgrade to DCL 8.0 but i not see upgrade instructions in the main page of the mod.

Can i ovewrite the DCL 7.5 with DCL 8.0 and load my savegame for continue play???

 

I see some messages that say i must start a new game but i not know WHY.

Can i make a clean save, install DCL 8.0 and load my cleaned savegame for continue play???

[Laura]

8 minutes ago, GenioMaestro said:

I have DCL 7.5 and i want upgrade to DCL 8.0 but i not see upgrade instructions in the main page of the mod.

Can i ovewrite the DCL 7.5 with DCL 8.0 and load my savegame for continue play???

 

I see some messages that say i must start a new game but i not know WHY.

Can i make a clean save, install DCL 8.0 and load my cleaned savegame for continue play???

You need to start a new save after updating.

DCUR has a bunch of things that run in the background when you're playing. The problem is that the savegames also stores running scripts in them. So when you update and play a save from a previous version, the save still has the older version of the script in it. It will then kinda try to use both versions, causing things to break.

So you need to use a new save when the mod creator tells you to.

[Nazzzgul666]

Hmm. I didn't upgrade (or even start Skyrim) in a while, but reading some pages back, Maiks "patch" looks like it rather disables Cursed Loots new prison system than providing POP support. Honestly i don't even like POP that much so i don't really care about support, but there are other mods adding prison stuff. 

If i understand Maiks patch right, those won't work either because DCUL will take over anyways or did i get that wrong?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Nazzzgul666 said:

Hmm. I didn't upgrade (or even start Skyrim) in a while, but reading some pages back, Maiks "patch" looks like it rather disables Cursed Loots new prison system than providing POP support. Honestly i don't even like POP that much so i don't really care about support, but there are other mods adding prison stuff. 

If i understand Maiks patch right, those won't work either because DCUL will take over anyways or did i get that wrong?

Yeah, main thing is that DCL comes in before the vanilla arrest event, so right now mods that use that event won't fire.

[MaikCG]

2 minutes ago, Nazzzgul666 said:

Hmm. I didn't upgrade (or even start Skyrim) in a while, but reading some pages back, Maiks "patch" looks like it rather disables Cursed Loots new prison system than providing POP support. Honestly i don't even like POP that much so i don't really care about support, but there are other mods adding prison stuff. 

If i understand Maiks patch right, those won't work either because DCUL will take over anyways or did i get that wrong? 

Will work.
This is not a patch, this is a solution.  DCL arrest is not turned off, only the level of the penalty at which it starts is increased. DCL prison only for the most brutal criminal.

 

[GenioMaestro]

6 minutes ago, Laura 'Lokomootje' said:

So you need to use a new save when the mod creator tells you to.

That is the first problem.... The main page NOT have upgrade instructions. 

 

The second problem is that i not understand WHY i must start a NEW GAME for play a new version of a mod.

I NEVER need start a NEW GAME for upgrade any other mod in more than 4 years playing Skyrim.

I can need a CLEAN SAVE and i undestand it and i know WHY i must make a clean save.

But i repeat: "I not understand WHY i must start a NEW GAME for play a new version of a mod."

 

14 minutes ago, Laura 'Lokomootje' said:

DCUR has a bunch of things that run in the background when you're playing. The problem is that the savegames also stores running scripts in them. So when you update and play a save from a previous version, the save still has the older version of the script in it. It will then kinda try to use both versions, causing things to break.

Theorically, all that scripts and stored data inside the savegame MUST be cleared when make the CLEAN SAVE.

If the mod have constant running scripts that NEVER stop can not be removed from the savegame.

But that is a PROBLEM in the mod and the developer MUST control it and give to the users a way for stop that scripts, stop all the quest and prepare the mod for any upgrade or for any posible uninstallation.

 

I can not understand that a mod developer can FORCE the users to start a NEW GAME for play the mod.

[Nazzzgul666]

33 minutes ago, MaikCG said:

Will work.
This is not a patch, this is a solution.  DCL arrest is not turned off, only the level of the penalty at which it starts is increased. DCL prison only for the most brutal criminal.

 

I meant without your solution. I more or less get the points about POP, i don't get why Kimy would care if i want to play with mod combinations that are more or less incompatible, i guess it would be for "this is a bug, fix it!" screamers. 

My solution to this would rather be to limit the people i listen to than limiting the people who get the source code and add work into something that breaks personal edits and i'm probably not one of these people, considering the amount of brawls i had over DD changes, but imho that would still be the better solution. If not for the whole community, i'd do it for my own sanity. Or write a browser plugin that hides all comments mentioning POP, including load orders, something like that.

 

But that other mods that are totally working with DD4, in active development like https://www.loverslab.com/files/file/8215-dragonborn-in-distress/ are ruled out is something i really dislike. Well, not entirely ruled out, in this mod i can switch of it's prison system. But i'd like to at least try it, maybe even like it better and most likely switch from time to time just for the sake of change. I really can't understand why i shouldn't be allowed to make this decision in my own game.

 

19 minutes ago, GenioMaestro said:

I can not understand that a mod developer can FORCE the users to start a NEW GAME for play the mod.

She can't and she doesn't. You're 100% free not to upgrade a mod or stop using it entirely. Using a certain mod is not a human right, you know?

[Zaflis]

11 minutes ago, GenioMaestro said:

That is the first problem.... The main page NOT have upgrade instructions. 

 

The second problem is that i not understand WHY i must start a NEW GAME for play a new version of a mod.

I NEVER need start a NEW GAME for upgrade any other mod in more than 4 years playing Skyrim.

DCUR is not that different from other mods in LoversLab, we only say that requirement for best experience for player. Some also talk about "the golden rule", this is it. You can upgrage old 7.5 with 8.0 and continue playing, but do not make bug reports if something breaks.

[GenioMaestro]

21 minutes ago, Nazzzgul666 said:

She can't and she doesn't. You're 100% free not to upgrade a mod or stop using it entirely.

Of course, I can make all that i want in my game and i'm free to upgrade or not upgrade. Because i'm an individual person and, of course, i'm FREE for use the mod or not use it. None other person can FORCE me to install the mod or to use it or to upgrade it.

 

But i can NOT understand WHY the game or the mod can break if i NOT start a new game.

Can you explain that to me?

[GenioMaestro]

28 minutes ago, Zaflis said:

but do not make bug reports if something breaks.

What bug reports??? What can break???

 

That is the point that I do not understand. Exactly WHAT can be broken if I do not start a NEW GAME.

What is the big difference between starting a new game and doing a clean save??
WHY the clean save is not valid?? What can be broken and why???

Which are EXACTLY the prolems that I can have ???

[Laura]

8 minutes ago, GenioMaestro said:

That is the first problem.... The main page NOT have upgrade instructions. 

Update the mod and then start a new save.

 

8 minutes ago, GenioMaestro said:

The second problem is that i not understand WHY i must start a NEW GAME for play a new version of a mod.

I NEVER need start a NEW GAME for upgrade any other mod in more than 4 years playing Skyrim.

I can need a CLEAN SAVE and i undestand it and i know WHY i must make a clean save.

But i repeat: "I not understand WHY i must start a NEW GAME for play a new version of a mod."

Most mods don't require a new save after updating because they're made differently. DCUR has a large script constantly running in the background.

Mods like mine don't have that and won't require a new save. Expect for when I told people to load a save where certain quests weren't active, because a running scripts was changed.

 

8 minutes ago, GenioMaestro said:

Theorically, all that scripts and stored data inside the savegame MUST be cleared when make the CLEAN SAVE.

If the mod have constant running scripts that NEVER stop can not be removed from the savegame.

But that is a PROBLEM in the mod and the developer MUST control it and give to the users a way for stop that scripts, stop all the quest and prepare the mod for any upgrade or for any posible uninstallation.

There are ways to stop the script, but it's not very reliable because Skyrim is still Skyrim. The best way is to start a new game.

 

8 minutes ago, GenioMaestro said:

I can not understand that a mod developer can FORCE the users to start a NEW GAME for play the mod.

It's not because we're evil, it's because there are technical limitations. Skyrim doesn't like it when mods get updated or loadorders are changed. Savegames in Skyrim are very precise. They don't work like checkpoints like most games. Skyrim saves the player's position/state, NPC positions/state, running scripts, navmeshes and many other things. Things go wrong when it loads things from the save that are no longer there because a mod was changed or moved. That's why you sometimes need to make a new save.

 

You probably don't want to lose progress and I understand that. We want you to keep the save, but technical limitations make that impossible in this case.

When I work on my mod, I often have to load a save from a while ago because it won't work when I load a save where the older scripts are in.

[cooldown1337]

2 minutes ago, GenioMaestro said:

What bug reports??? What can break???

 

That is the point that I do not understand. Exactly WHAT can be broken if I do not start a NEW GAME.

What is the big difference between starting a new game and doing a clean save??
WHY the clean save is not valid?? What can be broken and why???

Which are EXACTLY the prolems that I can have ???

Just make a clean save, run ReSaver on it and give it a try, should work fine. Pretty sure such disclaimers are just a way for mod authors to avoid troubleshooting issues that can be caused by such installations (which I can understand)

[Nazzzgul666]

Because save game cleaners aren't 100% reliable. They may miss things, they may delete more than they should. Both happened to me, only once, but nevertheless. This may be a chance of 1:100 or even 1:100 000 000, it doesn't matter. The point is that it happens and if it happens it's pretty much impossible for a modder to figure it out, therefore it's understandable they don't want to search for a bug in their mod that was actually created by a save game cleaner.

So feel free to try whatever you want, but don't complain if something doesn't work then.

 

For the "What can break?" question: everything that keeps anything in any save. Laura mentioned some examples.

[Laura]

4 minutes ago, GenioMaestro said:

What bug reports??? What can break???

 

That is the point that I do not understand. Exactly WHAT can be broken if I do not start a NEW GAME.

What is the big difference between starting a new game and doing a clean save??
WHY the clean save is not valid?? What can be broken and why???

Which are EXACTLY the prolems that I can have ???

Devices can stop functioning, scenes and quests can fail to start, dialogue can fail to trigger, MCM can stop working and game performance can drop.

You can try to use a savecleaning tool so you can keep your progress, but we can't guarentee that it'll work, so we'll never recommend it.

 

The biggest problem is that it can look like it all went fine after not starting a new game, but things can still go wrong behind the curtain. Those little mistakes can pile up like a snowball and cause big issues later on.

[Tiress]

As long as the game will be able to corrupt save files by itself (without mods), there really is no such a thing as a clean save.

[Treatedshammy]

On 3/23/2019 at 9:31 PM, Zaflis said:

That is the correct one. You also need to build the body in Bodyslide afterwards, and run the FNIS. Now i consider this also "required" for UNP:

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/30050

Without it you may get neck or hand seams, very distracting borders where those models connect. But that's really all there is to UNP, other is just fine tuning like eyes, teeth, different faces or sweaty body textures etc.

 

On 3/23/2019 at 10:30 PM, Treatedshammy said:

I will download that as well then.

 

But I did try the game with the UNP I mentioned and I ran the Bodyslide and FNIS, but there was no change. The torso/hobbledress was still invisible.

 

I am so close to giving up here this is just frustrating when I can't see what the problem is. I have reinstalled every mod, followed every instruction as best I can they have had. And I'm still in the same damn spot. The BodySlide program said to load things from the Skyrim launcher first to find the textures it needs, but that hasn't worked. I just can't see where the problem is.

 

With the linked mod order, the only things not shown on the screen are; on the left SkyUI, and on the right both Life Another Life files (the base and the Devious extention) and annoyingly I can't get a screenshot in game, but some of the textures clearly load (the character clear has boots armbinder and gag on) but then others don't, like what seems to be the hobble dress. I just don't know where I'm going wrong because I'm obviously doing it repeatedly without realising.

[GenioMaestro]

3 minutes ago, Laura 'Lokomootje' said:

Update the mod and then start a new save.

Only and exclusively because you, others players and the developer say it in the forums?

Excuse me but that is not enougth motive.

If the mod REALLY require a NEW game the developer MUST say it in the main page in the upgrade section.

If the mod NOT require a NEW game i not know WHY you, others players and the developer say that.

 

11 minutes ago, Laura 'Lokomootje' said:

1 - DCUR has a large script constantly running in the background...

2 - There are ways to stop the script, but it's not very reliable because Skyrim is still Skyrim. The best way is to start a new game....

3 - because there are technical limitations. Skyrim doesn't like it when mods get updated or loadorders are changed. Savegames in Skyrim are very precise....

4 - make that impossible in this case.

Excuse me but the things that you say not match with the things that i know. And we only have ONE posibility.

Your are wrong or i'm wrong. And i want determine that point. We can continue in PM or in the page of your mod for not overcharge this page. Only go to make some details:

 

1 - Is not a problem, the script and the quest can be stoped.

2 - Is tecnically imposible have a running script that is NOT atached to an active quest.

3 - I not know any limitation. The game can upgrade any mod and process any load order in any moment.

4 - Why??? What are that special things that make IMPOSIBLE the upgrade.

12 minutes ago, Laura 'Lokomootje' said:

When I work on my mod, I often have to load a save from a while ago because it won't work when I load a save where the older scripts are in.

That have a clear and easy explanation and is the motive because is OBLIGATORY make a clean save.

But the tecnical details are a bit bored for explaint it here.

[thedarkone1234]

1 hour ago, MaikCG said:

 

And for dessert.

"If You distribute or otherwise make available New Materials, You automatically grant to Bethesda Softworks the irrevocable, perpetual, royalty free, sublicensable right and license under all applicable copyrights and intellectual property rights laws to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, perform, display, distribute and otherwise exploit and/or dispose of the New Materials (or any part of the New Materials) in any way Bethesda Softworks, or its respective designee(s), sees fit."

All claim on "unlawful" mod changes, I will only listen from the Bethesda agent ?

 

This thing you quoted means Bethesda themselves reserve the right to all mods (probably even in spite of the modder). It does not say that they give everyone else these rights.

So if you are not a Bethsada employee this does not apply to you, and while LL might not have the lawsuit abilities of a game company, you can expect that violating its terms will get you banned from it.

And since it is totally up to Kimy to decide the rules about her mod, and technically nothing keeps her from saying MaikCG specifically has no rights to even suggest code alterations, then all comments about it are meaningless.

 

Can you be sued? Probably not.

Are you violating rules? If Kimy who decides her rules says so - yes.

What are the consequenses of that? I am relatively new to LL but my guess is account suspension or something.

 

P.S: Do you particulary enjoy agitating Kimy? At this point I suspect you are. Though it might be just a very bad Google Translate.

[GenioMaestro]

26 minutes ago, Nazzzgul666 said:

Because save game cleaners aren't 100% reliable. They may miss things, they may delete more than they should. Both happened to me, only once, but nevertheless. This may be a chance of 1:100 or even 1:100 000 000, it doesn't matter. The point is that it happens and if it happens it's pretty much impossible for a modder to figure it out, therefore it's understandable they don't want to search for a bug in their mod that was actually created by a save game cleaner.

Excuse me but i see that position totally incorrect. The posibility of one error in the cleaner program is real.

But, as you say, can happend a very small number of times. That is not a motive for not use it.

Any computer can give a BSOD but that is not a motive for not use the computer.

 

Aditionally, the developer must solve the problems reported from some users. If the mod have a problem that happend only to ONE user and none other user have THAT problem the developer must not search any. Must

be a problem in the installation or the savegame of THAT user.

33 minutes ago, Nazzzgul666 said:

For the "What can break?" question: everything that keeps anything in any save.

That is not an answer. The savegame and the cleaners works perfect the 99.99% of the times.

Is true that SOMETIMES the savegame can go corrupt and is true that SOMETIMES the cleaner can have a problem.

But that is not a motive for not use the savegames or the cleaners.

[Laura]

There is no need to get hostile over this. I'm just trying to explain why.

 

16 minutes ago, GenioMaestro said:

Only and exclusively because you, others players and the developer say it in the forums?

Excuse me but that is not enougth motive.

If the mod REALLY require a NEW game the developer MUST say it in the main page in the upgrade section.

If the mod NOT require a NEW game i not know WHY you, others players and the developer say that.

 

Excuse me but the things that you say not match with the things that i know. And we only have ONE posibility.

Your are wrong or i'm wrong. And i want determine that point. We can continue in PM or in the page of your mod for not overcharge this page. Only go to make some details:

 

1 - Is not a problem, the script and the quest can be stoped.

It can, but that doesn't change how the savegames work.

 

Quote

2 - Is tecnically imposible have a running script that is NOT atached to an active quest.

You're right, but DCUR has a few quests with the Start Game Enabled box checked. Those quests and it's scripts are always active. Most notable is the dcur_clocktick quest. It's script dcur_clocktickscript handles the timer features like Public Indecency, Device Comments, Device Buffs and many other things.

 

Quote

3 - I not know any limitation. The game can upgrade any mod and process any load order in any moment.

That's true in most cases, but not with this mod. That's why we told you.

 

Quote

4 - Why??? What are that special things that make IMPOSIBLE the upgrade.

That have a clear and easy explanation and is the motive because is OBLIGATORY make a clean save.

But the tecnical details are a bit bored for explaint it here.

I told you before. It's because of how the savegames work.

 

And please, when the mod author explains how to use the mod, do what the mod author told you. She said it wih a reason.