Deviously Cursed Loot LE 9.0 (2021-03-09)

[Rogwar002]

5 hours ago, GenioMaestro said:

4 - Why??? What are that special things that make IMPOSIBLE the upgrade.

Users.

Simple as that. Users. Because not everyone is a skilled pro / expert / nerd whatever...

That is why modders are suggesting to make a new save.

Clean your save. Add every mod you want, but don´t suggest inexpierenced young adults should do as you do, without having a clue what they do.

Even you had a learning curve, am I right? So did I. Be constructive. Not destructive.

 

regards

Rogwar.

[Psalam]

Quote

11 minutes ago, crazyduck said:

I dont see where my posts are agressive , mean, bad or something like that, i just ask few questions i have about things i really dont understand.

 

sure i can understand if kimy say she will not add some sort of Slider to her MCM so people can set a Mininum bounty before her crime system starts.

But i cant understand why its a hostile act if someone show with a screenshot which value must be changed.

Also i cant understand why for kimy its offensive , bad, mean whatever if someone say he or she dont want her crime system to work from bounty >0 but want it to work from Bounty >1000 or more. If this people change the value using TESedit its not stop other people from not doing it and iut also dont force kimy to support it or to add a slider to MCM.

But it also dont force Kimy to modify the mod so it cant be changed that easy anymore

 

and posting it in this thread i dont see why this is offensive , it woudl be if he had uploaded a modified arrestscript from cursed loot

 

But possible i´m just to stupid to understand that or its cause english is not my native language, if there are any real reasons why its important that the cirme system from cursed loot is always active and not only after reaching a set Bounty value kimy could easily explain why , would stop this entire discussion i think.

 

 

You are likely correct that the fact that English is not your native language is part of the problem with communication here. Regardless, what you have been told is correct, your words seem to be hostile when read in whatever translation you are using.

 

Might I suggest that you don't have to understand it, you merely have to accept it. If you want to PM me about how to use English more effectively I will be happy to help you as best I can - off this thread.

 

I would also politely suggest that if you drop your insistence on an explanation of the crime system this entire discussion would also cease. If Kimy chooses to use her free time between Real Life (RL) and the many mods that she has authored to answer that question I would find it lovely. However, since this is her thread and her mod I would, politely again, suggest that what would be more appropriate is for you to 1) accept things as they are, 2) drop the topic and 3) offer an apology to Kimy with the defense that the problem is likely a language barrier.

[Rogwar002]

49 minutes ago, worik said:

Since I like numbers, I come to my conclusion that, by the numbers, you are doing something right.

Now, MY answer of your question "why" is, that you are doing it because you are doing the right thing in the right way.

 

I am having the feeling that you either didn't see that, or have forgotten it. Please forgive me my non-technical wall of text, but I felt it important to help you with an answer to your question.

Very Very true!

So: Thumbs up for you and for @Kimy❤️

[crazyduck]

1 minute ago, Psalam said:

You are likely correct that the fact that English is not your native language is part of the problem with communication here. Regardless, what you have been told is correct, your words seem to be hostile when read in whatever translation you are using.

 

Might I suggest that you don't have to understand it, you merely have to accept it. If you want to PM me about how to use English more effectively I will be happy to help you as best I can - off this thread.

 

I would also politely suggest that if you drop your insistence on an explanation of the crime system this entire discussion would also cease. If Kimy chooses to use her free time between Real Life (RL) and the many mods that she has authored to answer that question I would find it lovely. However, since this is her thread and her mod I would, politely again, suggest that what would be more appropriate is for you to 1) accept things as they are, 2) drop the topic and 3) offer an apology to Kimy with the defense that the problem is likely a language barrier.

Look i have really no Problem if kimy keep the crime system as it currently is its her decision, for me it would become a problem if she make it imposible to modify the values for it, cause i like her mod but i dont like her crime system enough that i would have it active always. and that she want to make it impossible to change it she said some posts earlier or did i read it wrong?

 

As is said i like cursed loot as mod sure, if not i would not complain or ask . But i dont like getting sent to kimys prison and doing x days in a row the same stuff each day or getting send to a walk of shame asking XXX NPC for a key and hope somoen has it and not like last walk of shame no one in entire city had a key or offered the needed dialogue option.

[GenioMaestro]

6 minutes ago, Rogwar002 said:

Users.

Simple as that. Users. Because not everyone is a skilled pro / expert / nerd whatever...

That is why modders are suggesting to make a new save.

Clean your save. Add every mod you want, but don´t suggest inexpierenced young adults should do as you do, without having a clue what they do.

Even you had a learning curve, am I right? So did I. Be constructive. Not destructive.

 

regards

Rogwar.

I can understand that and i'm happy with the people that say the true.

I can accept instructions that say: "Is recomended start a new game but you can make a clean save if you want"

But i can NOT accept whitout discusion instructions that say: "You MUST start a new game" whitout give any motive or explanation. 

 

If the instructions and the ideas of the people must be changed that is my constructive point.

As i said, I only want determine if REALLY the mod have a problem or not.

[Psalam]

Quote

1 minute ago, crazyduck said:

Look i have really no Problem if kimy keep the crime system as it currently is its her decision, for me it would become a problem if she make it imposible to modify the values for it, cause i like her mod but i dont like her crime system enough that i would have it active always. and that she want to make it impossible to change it she said some posts earlier or did i read it wrong?

 

As is said i like cursed loot as mod sure, if not i would not complain or ask . But i dont like getting sent to kimys prison and doing x days in a row the same stuff each day or getting send to a walk of shame asking XXX NPC for a key and hope somoen has it and not like last walk of shame no one in entire city had a key or offered the needed dialogue option.

 

I can appreciate your frustration and, maybe, if you can remove some of that frustration from the tone of your posts you will be more apt to get the sort of answer you want. There is an English proverb which I hope translates for you "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." If, once again, you post your concerns as simple statements (avoiding all absolutely unnecessary adjectives) and ask, politely, for help and/or an explanation you might actually achieve that for which you are searching. I still, politely, recommend an apology, but that, of course, is completely up to you.

[Kimy]

1 hour ago, MaikCG said:

This part is hostile to other mods and the vanila game.
I like 95% of this mod, I like what you give to adjust these 95% to the preferences of the player. But I do not like the fact that you ultimately cram another 5% of the content that breaks other mods and the game itself.

Then stop using my mod!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[crazyduck]

8 minutes ago, Psalam said:

I can appreciate your frustration and, maybe, if you can remove some of that frustration from the tone of your posts you will be more apt to get the sort of answer you want. There is an English proverb which I hope translates for you "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." If, once again, you post your concerns as simple statements (avoiding all absolutely unnecessary adjectives) and ask, politely, for help and/or an explanation you might actually achieve that for which you are searching. I still, politely, recommend an apology, but that, of course, is completely up to you.

i think i did that some pages ago and after kimy told me no pop comaptibility unti inte make his mod 100% dd compatible it was ok for me also after she said i can patch it myself but not allowed to share the modified files.

 

For me there are not really many question open for now.

Current Question i have are

 

1 Why its needed and no chance to not have it this way, that her crime system handle every bounty from 1 up to unlimited

2. would it break other parts of the mod if the crime system only kicks in if you reach 1000 or 10.000 bounty or never starts cause you set bounty to a super high value

3 why it would be a problem for her if people modify this value and dont use her crime system for all bountys .

4 why she now thinks she must change it so people cant easily modify this value.

 

So for me this are 4 simple questions and i dont see a problem asking this questions.

If you think this questions are still agressive would be nice if you can translate them into a not so agressive version .

[Psalam]

Quote

8 minutes ago, crazyduck said:

i think i did that some pages ago and after kimy told me no pop comaptibility unti inte make his mod 100% dd compatible it was ok for me also after she said i can patch it myself but not allowed to share the modified files.

 

For me there are not really many question open for now.

Current Question i have are

 

1 Why its needed and no chance to not have it this way, that her crime system handle every bounty from 1 up to unlimited

2. would it break other parts of the mod if the crime system only kicks in if you reach 1000 or 10.000 bounty or never starts cause you set bounty to a super high value

3 why it would be a problem for her if people modify this value and dont use her crime system for all bountys .

4 why she now thinks she must change it so people cant easily modify this value.

 

So for me this are 4 simple questions and i dont see a problem asking this questions.

If you think this questions are still agressive would be nice if you can translate them into a not so agressive version .

 

Now it may be my turn to completely misunderstand but I THINK that Kimy did answer this a page or two back in a response to MaikCG. And no, this sounds much more reasoned than before.

[Zaflis]

26 minutes ago, crazyduck said:

3 why it would be a problem for her if people modify this value and dont use her crime system for all bountys .

It's about 1 of the rules, the culprit of this 10 pages of drama:

Quote

- You can NOT bundle/re-distribute any parts of this mod with your own (e.g. include patched versions of DCL's scripts or ESP in your mod) as future updates might break mine, yours and other mods if you do

I don't want to take any strong stance on any of this and i hope best wishes for Kimy to get over all this, it's been long enough. Intent of this post is neutral, and i do not ask you to change anything, you do what you see best.

 

What i can do is imagine myself as mod developer of something similar in scale as DCL. How would i react if i had no such rule, and then someone did publish a patched mod with my script changed? To be honest, i would be proud of my work and of the community.

1. That my work is so popular that others think of creative ways to change outcomes, or even improve upon it. Hell, it wouldn't matter even if it was worse as i see it.

2. Depending on patch, i might integrate it to the original version or simply use it in my playthroughs sometimes for variety. Variety is always good. Integration would mean that they helped me improve the mod. Free code, yay. Everyone wins.

3. When it comes to things like Patreon, the more popularity the better. A good and creative patch could attract a lot more users for the main mod. In this it helps not only the mod, but the whole LoversLab community to grow and evolve. Drama free.

 

I would simply ignore issue reports made by using said patches, as i see fit. I didn't make them, so not my problem. It's on the patch maker, not me to deal with its problems and mod conflicts caused by it. If my update breaks their patches, so be it. It's fully on them to catch up, i don't need to deal with any potential stuff caused by it. Main mod comes always first and others adapt. If they can't keep up they will be forgotten by everyone. And that's as it should be.

[crazyduck]

14 minutes ago, Zaflis said:

It's about 1 of the rules, the culprit of this 10 pages of drama:

I don't want to take any strong stance on any of this and i hope best wishes for Kimy to get over all this, it's been long enough. Intent of this post is neutral, and i do not ask you to change anything, you do what you see best.

 

What i can do is imagine myself as mod developer of something similar in scale as DCL. How would i react if i had no such rule, and then someone did publish a patched mod with my script changed? To be honest, i would be proud of my work and of the community.

1. That my work is so popular that others think of creative ways to change outcomes, or even improve upon it. Hell, it wouldn't matter even if it was worse as i see it.

2. Depending on patch, i might integrate it to the original version or simply use it in my playthroughs sometimes for variety. Variety is always good. Integration would mean that they helped me improve the mod. Free code, yay. Everyone wins.

3. When it comes to things like Patreon, the more popularity the better. A good and creative patch could attract a lot more users for the main mod. In this it helps not only the mod, but the whole LoversLab community to grow and evolve. Drama free.

 

I would simply ignore issue reports made by using said patches, as i see fit. I didn't make them, so not my problem. It's on the patch maker, not me to deal with its problems and mod conflicts caused by it. If my update breaks their patches, so be it. It's fully on them to catch up, i don't need to deal with any potential stuff caused by it. Main mod comes always first and others adapt. If they can't keep up they will be forgotten by everyone. And that's as it should be.

 

Sure ignoring if such a patch would cause Bugs is fine i dont think someone would ask kimy to support the patch XYZ overwriting function Z of her Mod or fix a bug with this Patch.

But you said its one of the rules and thats the point i really dont understand.

If only sharing modifeid curseld loot files is a problem, why it can be a hostile act to share a screenshot to show people how to modify 1 value?

 

And sure if a mod would not be popular people woudl not ask for compatiblity to mod x or want to add this compatiblity with a patch they woudl simply remove the mod from load order and done.

 

And for me , if i download a patch for a Mod its the Job of the PAtch Writer to keep it compatible not the Job of the Modder from the Main Mod.  But if  i look around at Loverslab i find patdhes for many mods, Skooma Whore, Defeat, Sexlab itself and many others and all this patches work , dont drestroy the main mod and also dont compete with the person who make the main mod, without main mod the patch woudl be useless so how it could really compete with it?

 

 

 

[Laura]

5 minutes ago, crazyduck said:

 

Sure ignoring if such a patch would cause Bugs is fine i dont think someone would ask kimy to support the patch XYZ overwriting function Z of her Mod or fix a bug with this Patch.

But you said its one of the rules and thats the point i really dont understand.

i did not find a rule from Kimy not allowing people to share informations (not modified cursed loot filese) about ways to change values in cursed loot. And as far as i can tell there was no cursed loot file shared only a screenshot from TESEdit showing which value must be changed.

 Your Quote also dont say anything about sharing informations or screenshots only that its not allowed to publish modified cursed loot files.

 

And sure if a mod would not be popular people woudl not ask for compatiblity to mod x or want to add this compatiblity with a patch they woudl simply remove the mod from load order and done.

 

And for me , if i download a patch for a Mod its the Job of the PAtch Writer to keep it compatible not the Job of the Modder from the Main Mod.  But if  i look around at Loverslab i find patdhes for many mods, Skooma Whore, Defeat, Sexlab itself and many others and all this patches work , dont drestroy the main mod and also dont compete with the person who make the main mod, without main mod the patch woudl be useless so how it could really compete with it?

It's not a clearly stated rule, but when a mod author tells you to not do something with their mod, we respect that. It could fall under rule 1.

The police won't show up at our door, but we have to respect Kimy's decision. It's her mod, so we play by her rules.

[Kimy]

6 minutes ago, Zaflis said:

What i can do is imagine myself as mod developer of something similar in scale as DCL. How would i react if i had no such rule, and then someone did publish a patched mod with my script changed? To be honest, i would be proud of my work and of the community.

Well, the feeling it did actually create in me was not pride. What I felt was that someone butchered my work without my consent. Like any person developing games I take pride in realizing my vision and see it come to life. Why do you think I would like it when somebody butchers it?

6 minutes ago, Zaflis said:

2. Depending on patch, i might integrate it to the original version or simply use it in my playthroughs sometimes for variety. Variety is always good. Integration would mean that they helped me improve the mod. Free code, yay. Everyone wins.

If I agreed with that patch, I would have provided it in my mod in the first place. I made several other features hook into the one that they killed, so they will no longer work as intended.

6 minutes ago, Zaflis said:

I would simply ignore issue reports made by using said patches, as i see fit.

With a mod as complex as DCL, it's not always so easy to recognize if a problem occurs because of a genuine bug or because somebody butchered parts of the mod without really knowing what the consequences were. Apparently even the creator of the butcher-patch didn't know that it wasn't butchering only the prison, but the entire DCL crime overhaul system.

 

People will absolutely run into issues or at least wonder why certain things aren't working. And then they will create support requests. Probably they will even PM them to me, because they think the found a really bad problem.

 

[crazyduck]

15 minutes ago, Kimy said:

Well, the feeling it did actually create in me was not pride. What I felt was that someone butchered my work without my consent. Like any person developing games I take pride in realizing my vision and see it come to life. Why do you think I would like it when somebody butchers it?

If I agreed with that patch, I would have provided it in my mod in the first place. I made several other features hook into the one that they killed, so they will no longer work as intended.

With a mod as complex as DCL, it's not always so easy to recognize if a problem occurs because of a genuine bug or because somebody butchered parts of the mod without really knowing what the consequences were. Apparently even the creator of the butcher-patch didn't know that it wasn't butchering only the prison, but the entire DCL crime overhaul system.

 

People will absolutely run into issues or at least wonder why certain things aren't working. And then they will create support requests. Probably they will even PM them to me, because they think the found a really bad problem.

 

Kimy i can understand you like your vision comes to life i really can understand that i startet modding for skyrim but not enough time to really work much on my mod, but i also made mods for other games and yes i also was happy if something worked or a idea works and some complex stuff starts to work as planned.

 

But at same time, i never had a problem if someone told me he dont like this or that and asked me if it could be changed, as long as its not much work for me i possibel change it or tell the people to change it if they want it different.

 

you say setting another bounty value butcher the entire crime overhaul, why? Cause cursed loot now dont play the different outcomes for low bounty crime? If yes also if you and many others like all the outcomes make a config value for them so people can select them would make things easier. I woudl as example have no problem wiht getting a belt , but the walk of shame is nothing i like very much cause its for me to much running around and hoping someone has the key. and your Prison as much as like the design for me its gets boring really fast cause same task everytime at same plan and not one bit of difference every day.

At same time i like most other parts of  your mod like cursed chests, the dollmaker, sasha, chloe and her quest or the solicitation feature.

 

Why not add some sort of simple Toggle for crime values, if someone dont like one of the outcomes it can be disabled rest stay active

 

Its not like People like me want to butcher your mod or ruin your hard work , as i said i like your mod very much since found this page its in my load order but the crime system as i said before , i dont like how it curerntly works.

Thats why i asked earlier if you can tell which features exaclty would not work anymore if this bouty value is changed , after i looked in your arrest script it seems it only disables other outcomes since there will be no low bounty crime anymore, if there are other things hooking into this would be nice if you could possible tell which features .

 

And about support, sure people will ask for support, but i think most people are not that stupid to ask the Mod Author of the main mod for support if something does not work after they add a patch for this mod from another modder.

[tester86]

I remember watching a movie once and thinking, "wow, that ending sucked."  It never once dawned on me to demand that the makers of the movie change the movie into what I thought it should be and I paid to see the movie. It would be even more egregious to demand it being changed to my vision if I didn't pay for it. To make outwardly hostile posts about a mod or the author who spends weeks and weeks of their life creating something that thousands of people enjoy and then puts that work up for FREE is beyond incomprehensible to me. 

 

I've seen people demand a show be taken off the air because they didn't like it.  If you don't like something, don't partake in it. If you don't like the mod, then simply don't install it. If you don't like the song on the radio, change the damned station. Nobody is forcing anyone to use any mod. I checked, there isn't anyone here in my house pointing a gun at my head and demanding I install this mod or that mod or any mod whatsoever. It's a choice. If you don't like it, don't use it. Or if you're feeling adventurous - make your own mod.   A simple Google search should get you pointed in the right direction.  Try "how to create a Skyrim mod from scratch."

 

I speak with my wallet. I'm a patreon supporter of Kimy because I feel she deserves to be paid for her work. I have bought a number of supporter packs for the free game Path of Exile for the same reason. To me it's worth it. 

 

I've written a number of novels and I would never once change MY artistic vision because someone else didn't like how my book didn't end the way they wanted it to. There are 122 pages of mods on this board for Skyrim (at least on my end) and you can't possibly expect any mod author to download and install every last one of them to make sure they're compatible.  There are some mods I enjoy that aren't compatible, guess what, "I" choose which mods to use and when.  I love the mod Get Stripped and with my full load order the scenes in Riften don't work correctly. Should I then make demands of that mod creator to change their work for my own personal use? Not only no but Hell No!  I change my load order and what mods I have installed to play what I want to play. 

 

Again the choice is on me.  I choose what to play, when to play and I play what I enjoy and I'm thankful that these mods exist. 

 

I want to thank not only Kimy but all the authors of all the mods who do what they do. 

 

Thank you modders.

 

I appreciate you.

 

[Lostdreamer]

I was about to send this by PM because i kinda felt like I should say it, then I realised I should probably post it here and say it in public.

 

To Kimy:

 

Thank you.

Thank you for your hard work on DCL and other mods.  They are one of the biggest reasons I have been able to enjoy playing skyrim for several years now.

 

And I don't like DCL despite it's broad range of extra functionality beyond booby trapped dungeons - but because of this. DCL is a single mod that brings a lot to the party, and does it in a very easy to use and well integrated way.

 

I may not always agree with some of the creative choices, but that isn't the point. I'm not the one putting the hours in to make and write the mod. I am choosing to use the mod as a whole, and am enjoying doing so and hope to continue doing so.

 

Just because I havn't joined in on the recent flame war does not mean I do not appreacheate the effort yourself - and many others - are putting in to make my game more fun to play.

 

Thank you again.

[Kimy]

7 minutes ago, crazyduck said:

Kimy i can understand you like your vision comes to life i really can understand that i startet modding for skyrim but not enough time to really work much on my mod, but i also made mods for other games and yes i also was happy if something worked or a idea works and some complex stuff starts to work as planned.

 

But at same time, i never had a problem if someone told me he dont like this or that and asked me if it could be changed, as long as its not much work for me i possibel change it or tell the people to change it if they want it different.

 

you say setting another bounty value butcher the entire crime overhaul, why? Cause cursed loot now dont play the different outcomes for low bounty crime? If yes also if you and many others like all the outcomes make a config value for them so people can select them. I woudl as example have no problem wiht getting a belt , but the walk of shame is nothing i like very much cause its for me to much running around and hoping someone has the key. and your Prison as much as like the design for me its gets boring really fast cause same task everytime at same plan and not one bit of difference every day.

At same time i like most other parts of  your mod like cursed chests, the dollmaker, sasha, chloe and her quest or the solicitation feature.

 

Why not add some sort of simple Toggle for crime values, if someone dont like one of the outcomes it can be disabled rest stay active

 

Its not like People like me want to butcher your mod or ruin your hard work , as i said i like your mod very much since found this page its in my load order but the crime system as i said before , i dont like how it curerntly works.

Thats why i asked earlier if you can tell which features exaclty would not work anymore if this bouty value is changed , after i looked in your arrest script it seems it only disables other outcomes since there will be no low bounty crime anymore, if there are other things hooking into this would be nice if you could possible tell which features .

 

And about support, sure people will ask for support, but i think most people are not that stupid to ask the Mod Author of the main mod for support if something does not work after they add a patch for this mod from another modder.

 

Well, what you're essentially saying is that I could prevent people from butchering my mod by bowing to their demands. That's really what it boils down to, no? "Do what we want, or we'll butcher your mod!!!"

 

And people really wonder why I am reacting to this the way I do?

[crazyduck]

13 minutes ago, Kimy said:

Well, what you're essentially saying is that I could prevent people from butchering my mod by bowing to their demands. That's really what it boils down to, no? "Do what we want, or we'll butcher your mod!!!"

 

And people really wonder why I am reacting to this the way I do?

Thats not what i meant kimy, really not.

 

Let me try to explain what i meant.

I dont say you must add config values in your MCM , or that you must add compatiblity to mod x or mod y thats only your decision and if you dont want to add compatiblity to mod X or Y its ok too.

 

But modding always meant (for me) that many different people create new content, and it woudl always be impossible that everyone will be happy about a change to a mod.

But at same time, i woudl not see it as butchering if someone woudl make a patch to modify a value, a outcome or something he dont like, cause for me it would show me also if someone dont like option X he likes the rest or he would not want to modify this one thing he dont like or dont want to use.

As i said for me i like most parts from cursed loot , and some stuff can be configured as example combat surrender or rape feature (both disabled in my game) but at same time i use as example dragonborn in distress and cant use its crime feature cause without changing this 1 value your mod will always override dragonborn in distress.

But that does not mean i dont like the rest of your mod.

 

So also if you dont want to add toggles for this things, why its such a issue for you if others want to do it? If someone would make a patch and this patch would destroy important parts of cursed loot its not your fault or something you need to fix.

 

Same now with the Current Crime Feature, only changing bounty value is not the best solution so to modify it more and make it work also with low bountys and at same time offer outcomes from as example dragonborn in distress or other mods the scripts must be modified.

 

But why you think People butchering your mod if they like it that much that they keep it in load order and want to use it but only want to modify 1 or 2 values of it?

 

And bowing to demands no, thats nothing i asked for Kimy, i only asked if you can explain to me why itwould be such a Problem for you if someone make a working patch for cursed loot allowing your crime system to work togehter with other outcomes from other mods, and if other featues as only the crime outcomes will be affectet if people use this bounty value change postet some pages earlier.

 

Cause yes if you would say ok its ok to make patches but if it ruins your game your own fault i would think it would be great, but as long as you dont remove source scripts  so its impossible to modify it for my own use its ok for me too, i just try to understand why this would be such a problem for you.

[JulioRosario89]

2 hours ago, Psalam said:

What is it about April and LoversLab? Last April I was on the ZAP thread defending T.ara from people who couldn't do what he does in their dreams. Now I find myself on DCL doing the same for Kimy. Perhaps T.S. Eliot had it right:

 

          April is the cruelest month springing flowers from the dead ground.

 

I am not going to say anything brilliant or even new. Laura Lokomootje has presented the basic facts and is entirely correct. Let me try, as I have before, to present it another way. Rule 1 of LL is that the site exists, first and foremost, for mod authors. It's nice that people like me can come here and use the material that they sweated over to make work. I am grateful for it. But, I am not the "target audience." It's like a restaurant that makes itself "hip" in order to attract celebrities knowing that, in turn, their presence will draw the hoi polloi (such as myself). Therefore, as I understand Rule 1, anything that makes a mod author "pissed off" is a violation of the rules. Failure to appreciate that, especially after said mod author makes it clear that they are "pissed off" is a violation of Rule 2 ("don't be a jerk"). So, if you are unhappy with this mod please, please make a better one. I really enjoy DCL but wouldn't complain if you can make a better one.

 

Speaking of making a better one, let's talk piracy here. When you take someone else's work and present it as your own, that's piracy. So, if you take parts of the mod and post them as your mod or "fix" then you are guilty of piracy. Kimy (and most of LL's mod authors) are completely fine with someone taking their mod and making changes to it for their own personal use. Once you move past that you must ask the mod author's permission prior to using their work. This is simply common courtesy. Pretending that you are simply showing how to use TES5Edit is not an excuse. I have an entire blog on how to fix and avoid CTDs. THAT is the place for "educating" people. Feel free to take the information you have and say "this is how to effectively use TES5Edit." Maybe, like me, you are interested in consolidating the information about the topic into one place to make things easier for people looking for it. However, placing it on this thread as a fix is arrogant and just plain wrong. Going further and telling the mod's author that she is wrong for not being understanding is RUDE (don't be a jerk) and wrong.

 

And speaking of telling the mod author that she is wrong it is the height of ingratitude to tell someone who's given you something for free, which has clearly been enjoyable for you or you wouldn't bother to be here, that she now has a further responsibility to you. To expand on a metaphor I've used before, it's not just telling someone who's given you a Toyota Camry that they're a cheapskate for not giving you a Lexus, it is also telling them that now that they've given it to you they are responsible for paying for the gas and oil change. Mods placed here on LL are available "as is" and "at the user's risk." No one is forcing you to use this mod or any other mod. Further, the mod author clearly has no responsibility to put out even the level of information available on this thread much less make known whatever you may want to know. I say "clearly" since there is far less documentation for most mods than there is for DCL. You may take her advice about the mod that she has created and is, therefore, intimately familiar with, or you can go off with it in your own manner (for your personal use) and deal with the consequences of doing that.

 

Lastly (only because I hate putting up a "wall of text") a mod's author has no responsibility to make patches for or to make her mod adapt to other mods. Members of the community may, politely, request patches or changes. My experience is that Kimy has been more open to those than most mod authors and is willing to give an explanation when she says "no" even if it is just "that is not the direction I want to take this mod in." Doing that IS entirely her right (see Rule 1 if you need clarification again).

 

So, please, can we now move on before the Moderators feel the need to delete the last four pages of posts becuase of "drama"?

Amen to that, brothers and sisters! Can we please stop now and move on?

[karlpaws]

16 minutes ago, crazyduck said:

Its not like People like me want to butcher your mod or ruin your hard work

Then don't butcher it, offer to butcher it or try to mooch and beg.  What is often overlooked in free games and game mods is that there is intellectual property involved. There are laws regarding this kind of thing. While mods may or may not truly belong to the modder and may instead belong to the company that made the game, they do not belong to all and an author can put restrictions on a work that you must abide by.  If a mod author wishes to explain all reasoning and mechanics or not, you take what they give and be happy, or follow the next instruction:

 

16 minutes ago, crazyduck said:

i dont like how it curerntly works.

 

Then don't use it and go make your own.  (which after reading a few more posts, I see a few other people did suggest.)

 

16 minutes ago, crazyduck said:

And about support, sure people will ask for support, but i think most people are not that stupid to ask the Mod Author of the main mod for support if something does not work after they add a patch for this mod from another modder.

 

This is as naive a statement as there is.  People will ask for help of the author and not only not provide useful info but also neglect to mention they are using said butchering patch, leading the mod author to chase down rabbit holes that do not lead anywhere useful due to using said patch, and only after much work is expended, mention "oh, and I have this installed".  There are forums filled with such questions, stories from developers, tech support people and such going back decades.

[GreatCroco]

5 hours ago, GenioMaestro said:

But Nexus has more than 60k mods and I have not seen any other mod that needs a new game to work and less to update

What big mods do you have that don't require a new save? Frostfall does, Campfire does, Blackthorn does, Windstead does.

You don't seem to understand Skyrim's save game at all. Not the scripts are baked into the save. Their respective variables and values are and keeping them will cause issues later down the line. How impact-full those are? It depends. The range can go from slight script lag to completely broken quests.

 

As for load order rearranging:

Every mod has a two digit hexadecimal prefix, ranging from 00 to FF (with 00 and 01 reserved for skyrim.esm and update.esm). That's where the 254 mod limit comes from. Each FormId inside the game consists of the prefix and a 6 digit hexadecimal id. Any used id is baked into the savegame when the object is spawned. It's later used to reference the object. Changing the load order and thus the prefix will therefore cause issues.

 

A general rule of thumb for Skyrim (be it LE or SE):

a) if you install new mods mid game, do it only at the end of the load order

b) never rearrange the load order or remove mods from it

c) Don't upgrade mods that have an esp (and therefore add stuff to the game), texture and model replacers are fine to upgrade.

 

2 hours ago, GenioMaestro said:

Can anyone prove that DCL version 8.0 does NOT work properly in a clean save?

Yup I can. I wanted to test if DCUR worked with an old save and every time I got to prison the game crashed. Lesser crimes (e.g. walk of shame) worked fine as did every crime after i disabled the prison.

So stop questioning everything like a 13 year old edge-lord and trust the people who know what they are doing.

 

6 hours ago, MaikCG said:

From the point of view of juridical casuistry, I modify not the code of Kimy, but the code of Bethesda.

No you do not. Bethesda didn't write DCUR, Kimy did. Therefore you modified hers. And no, just because the base game has modding tools it doesn't make every mod Bethesda's property.

By that logic a writer wouldn't have any rights to his book since the piece he wrote it on (be it paper, or a PC/Mac) was manufactured by someone else.

 

1 hour ago, crazyduck said:

Sure ignoring if such a patch would cause Bugs is fine i dont think someone would ask kimy to support the patch XYZ overwriting function Z of her Mod or fix a bug with this Patch.

 

Not to sound rude, but you never actually did create any bigger mod for a game did you?

People will change your mod (be it directly or indirectly though "compatibility patches") and they will blame the mod's author if a feature from said mod doesn't work. They have no clue that their changes are responsible, it's always the mod author, always.

Oh and some will even demand (yes, you read that correctly) that a mod author fix a (compatibility) patch they didn't make because "the mod is literally unplayable without it".

 

Strike the phrase "people wouldn't do that" from your mind when it comes to mods. They WILL do it. Some people (especially if they don't belong to the silent majority) are entitled pricks that take the Porsche if given the a small finger.

[Zaflis]

17 minutes ago, crazyduck said:

, and some stuff can be configured as example combat surrender or rape feature (both disabled in my game) but at same time i use as example dragonborn in distress and cant use its crime feature cause without changing this 1 value your mod will always override dragonborn in distress.

DiD doesn't have a crime feature at all, it's only combat surrender which DCL can disable. The mods are well compatible.

 

edit: I see there might be a little bit added to the vanilla prison, but i think that will still be compatible with DCL when you set it use vanilla.

[Kimy]

4 minutes ago, crazyduck said:

Thats not what i meant kimy, really not.

 

Let me try to explain what i meant.

I dont say you must add config values in your MCM , or that you must add compatiblity to mod x or mod y thats only your decision and if you dont want to add compatiblity to mod X or Y its ok too.

 

But modding always meant (for me) that many different people create new content, and it woudl always be impossible that everyone will be happy about a change to a mod.

But at same time, i woudl not see it as butchering if someone woudl make a patch to modify a value, a outcome or something he dont like, cause for me it would show me also if someone dont like option X he likes the rest or he would not want to modify this one thing he dont like or dont want to use.

As i said for me i like most parts from cursed loot , and some stuff can be configured as example combat surrender or rape feature (both disabled in my game) but at same time i use as example dragonborn in distress and cant use its crime feature cause without changing this 1 value your mod will always override dragonborn in distress.

But that does not mean i dont like the rest of your mod.

 

So also if you dont want to add toggles for this things, why its such a issue for you if others want to do it? If someone would make a patch and this patch would destroy important parts of cursed loot its not your fault or something you need to fix.

 

Same now with the Current Crime Feature, only changing bounty value is not the best solution so to modify it more and make it work also with low bountys and at same time offer outcomes from as example dragonborn in distress or other mods the scripts must be modified.

 

But why you think People butchering your mod if they like it that much that they keep it in load order and want to use it but only want to modify 1 or 2 values of it?

One value, eh? Changing that one value essentially disables several features weighing about 2,000 lines of code, I worked almost full-time hours on for three months to complete.

 

And sure, I get why they keep it in their load order. Because they are cherry-pickers. They want to have the cake and eat it. I get the idea. Use what you want, butcher the rest!!!

 

Here is the thing: I feel that my work has a right to remain to remain intact even when it clashes with other people's stuff. Users have a right to chose what they install and what not. DCL is one of the largest mods on LL and yet I have never, ever intentionally butchered somebody else's work to make mine work better. You know, instead of putting a whole lot of work into making a prison mod from scratch, I could have taken POP, deleted everything that clashes with my mods, and made it use DD devices instead. It would have taken me a fraction of the workload to do that. According to you guys' logic, that would have been ok, no? Well, I don't agree to that point of view. Whatever I might think of Inte, but his work has a right not to be butchered by me just because it might not fit into my personal agenda. Fellow modders should respect each other and their work THAT much. But maybe it's just me. *shrug*

 

 

[El_Duderino]

32 minutes ago, tester86 said:

I remember watching a movie once and thinking, "wow, that ending sucked."  It never once dawned on me to demand that the makers of the movie change the movie into what I thought it should be and I paid to see the movie. It would be even more egregious to demand it being changed to my vision if I didn't pay for it. To make outwardly hostile posts about a mod or the author who spends weeks and weeks of their life creating something that thousands of people enjoy and then puts that work up for FREE is beyond incomprehensible to me. 

Very well said!

 

Now can the nay-sayers please give it a rest and either accept this mod as it is or move on to do something else -- but in either case, respect Kimy's work and the really not extraordinary rules for the mod?

[crazyduck]

15 minutes ago, Kimy said:

One value, eh? Changing that one value essentially disables several features weighing about 2,000 lines of code, I worked almost full-time hours on for three months to complete.

 

And sure, I get why they keep it in their load order. Because they are cherry-pickers. They want to have the cake and eat it. I get the idea. Use what you want, butcher the rest!!!

 

Here is the thing: I feel that my work has a right to remain to remain intact even when it clashes with other people's stuff. Users have a right to chose what they install and what not. DCL is one of the largest mods on LL and yet I have never, ever intentionally butchered somebody else's work to make mine work better. You know, instead of putting a whole lot of work into making a prison mod from scratch, I could have taken POP, deleted everything that clashes with my mods, and made it use DD devices instead. It would have taken me a fraction of the workload to do that. According to you guys' logic, that would have been ok, no? Well, I don't agree to that point of view. Whatever I might think of Inte, but his work has a right not to be butchered by me just because it might not fit into my personal agenda. Fellow modders should respect each other and their work THAT much. But maybe it's just me. *shrug*

 

 

I never said in any of my Posts it would be ok to "steal" code from other mods or steal entire Mods and modify them and release them again , seems you misunderstood me or throw me into the same group of "stealing, releasing again is ok " people.

 

And you call it cherrypicking, tell me would it be really that bad if someone who dont like one part of your mod but at same time like the rest of your work could disable this one part he dont like? Sounds not like butchering for me also not like cherrypicking.

 

so to be honest i really dont get it why your answer to me is now that agressive, as i said i never said stealing code , stealing entire mods , changing entire mods and releasing them again is ok and no i also think that this would be ok .

I only said i dont understand why it would be such a issue for you if you add a function to disable your cime system or reduce priority of your dialogue so it does not block the normal crime dialog or allow other people to make a patch for it.

 

But really kimy no need to attack me and telling me stuff about code stealing and that i think that woudl be ok,

 

Oh and about the Cake and eat it, if someone wants the cake but dont like the cherrys on top  of it i dont think the person who made the cake would think its butchered cuase this person remove the cherrys from it.

 

Oh and about users have the right to choose, thats true, and often people must choose cause its impossible somethign work togehter but why you want people must choose if it can easily work togehter?

 

Oh and about the One Value thing, yes i already thought it would disable much more as only the dialogue for crimes until it hits the set amount of bounty. But why some people did or want to do that? Not cause they want to disable this 2000 lines of code , but only cause they did not want to be forced to use only your crime system if it can easily work togehter with other mods.

 

And away from patches or TESEdit Changes, why not offer a way for other mods to hook into your crime system? Something like use it to add other Outcomes from other Mods?

you have currently some outcomes shoudl be possibel that other modders add new outcomes to it if your Crime System allow that, woudl that not be a option without allowing patches from other Modders or dirty TESedit Changes?