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Dragonjoe69

What really pisses you off? please no posts about nexus lol

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4 minutes ago, Bazinga said:

Bullshit.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/04/24/fact-check-medicare-hospitals-paid-more-covid-19-patients-coronavirus/3000638001/

In the US it is fact.

I don't know how Asian countries handle it.  You don't either, so don't pretend.

 

7 minutes ago, Bazinga said:

I knew that you would attack the source. 😂

Here's a bunch of Wikipedia article just for you

Obviously I would.  When has the CCP or its organizations EVER told the truth except by accident?  

Wikipedia.......?  Really?   That is your source of "truth"?  You are hurting your case.  I'm not even going to have to work for this one.

I notice you still don't have India on there.  Nor real numbers from China.  Odd.  Are you moving the goal posts?  What game are we even playing here?

11 minutes ago, Bazinga said:

What are they doing differently? Food for thought.

What makes you think they are actually doing anything different?  Could it be age, weight, foreign travel or countless other factors?  Nah, let's chalk it up something like gender studies or some such.  Ya know.........for SCIENCE! 😆

 

I'm all for taking a hard look at all factors and building them into the model.  But let's keep it real and factual.  Misinformation and propaganda won't get us anywhere.

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1 hour ago, Bazinga said:

I would laugh if it wasn't so sad.

So would I.

Thanks for the link to the Asia Times article*, it was a good review of the many and various factors which may or may not be playing a part.

 

1 hour ago, Bazinga said:

Of course you guys know better

In the last week or so I have read posts here from at least two people who have said that wearing masks does not help against catching the virus. After 8 months people still can't get it into their heads that the main purpose of masks (in conjunction with distancing) is to help stop the spread of the virus. An individual can only have one instance of the virus but can spread it to many others (who can then spread it to many others etc., etc.).

 

* I'm awarding it an extra point for the use of the word 'dirigiste'. I can't remember the last time I saw that word.

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3 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

An individual can only have one instance of the virus

While it is rare (so far) you can get it more than once:

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54512034

 

In all cases I have heard of when that happened, it was shown to be a slightly different strain of the virus. For those familiar, this is not unlike what happens when they try to put flu shots together. The world's leading scientists make their best guess of which strains are likely to show up in a particular year and make an immunizations for those. If the strain is dead on the vaccine is over 90% effective. If they are close but a similar strain spreads instead, the vaccine efficacy drops significantly, usually to around 50%. And, if the strain(s) that actually go around are entirely different the vaccine has no effectiveness whatsoever. Bear this in mind when you talk about THE coronavirus vaccine.

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Look at all the folks that are wearing masks to "protect from" or "prevent spreading" of the coof:

Spoiler

w45_46_COVID19_EU_EEA_UK_Subnational_14d_Attack_Rate_0.png

 

Sure doesn't look like it is working all that well.  Perhaps that could be because it doesn't?   Nah.  Course not.  That would be silly.

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5 minutes ago, gregathit said:

Sure doesn't look like it is working all that well.  Perhaps that could be because it doesn't?   Nah.  Course not.  That would be silly.

What does the graphic prove? Case notification would be dependent on track and trace. You cannot prove a negative in that there are no comparable data for a country or countries with zero mask wearing. One might add that it has never been claimed that mask wearing stops the spread of the virus, only that it retards it. It is damage limitation not a silver bullet.

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4 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

I meant at one any one time. 🙂

My bad, sorry. 😁

4 minutes ago, gregathit said:

Sure doesn't look like it is working all that well.

On the one hand, I wear a mask and I got COVID. On the other hand let's review a few things. The goal of public health, right now, is to mitigate the effect of COVID. The worst case scenario (and we're beginning to see it here in the US) is that so many people get seriously ill with COVID at the same time that our ability to give them sufficient treatment that they live rather than die breaks. That's when the disease, which currently has a rather low fatality rate, sees an increase in the death rate. Everything the public health experts are telling people about avoiding gatherings, washing hands and wearing masks is designed to that purpose - to decrease (not eliminate) the spread of the disease. Will those things stop the spread of COVID-19? Absolutely not. Will they slow down the spread of COVID-19. Yes, they have been shown to do so. And, whenever they have been let up, the disease has come roaring back.

 

When COVID first came to the US the CDC estimated that there would be between 700k and 1200k deaths here if no attempt at mitigation was done. According to the CDC, as of yesterday, there were 253600 deaths in the US from COVID. There is still a long way to go. Even including "silent" cases (those without sufficient symptoms to be tested and so got COVID and no one knows it) it is unlikely that as much as 10% of the US population has now had COVID. Herd immunity kicks in at around 60%. Folks, we have a long way to go with this disease yet. It is irresponsible for anyone to not take the disease seriously or to ignore those few things that will help contain the spread. I reiterate, help contain - not stop, the spread.

 

Finally, I apologize to most of the people here on LL who are not Americans. I know my post is US-centric but that's where I am and where I have a good idea about the numbers. However, my points about taking public health precautions is valid to all. I know not everyone wipes their ass after taking a shit. But, for public health reasons they should, and wash their hands too. 

 

58 minutes ago, Bazinga said:

I should stay out of here. 😅

Me too (again).

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1 minute ago, Grey Cloud said:

What does the graphic prove? Case notification would be dependent on track and trace. You cannot prove a negative in that there are no comparable data for a country or countries with zero mask wearing. One might add that it has never been claimed that mask wearing stops the spread of the virus, only that it retards it. It is damage limitation not a silver bullet.

A claim based on fiction is nothing more than a LaLa Land fairy tale.  Which has been my point all along.  If there is REAL scientific data PROVING that masks stop or slow anything at all then show it.  What type of masks and what is the success factor rate for them?  What other factors, like eyes and ears have bearing?  How long should they be worn (for those that don't have money to burn)?  Can they be washable and what should they be washed with?  You are a smart guy, why aren't you asking these questions?  Blindly trusting crap we are spoon fed has done nothing but make this whole thing worse.  Spreading fear and ignorance won't help. 

 

Many of the Dutch people don't appear willing to wear masks.  The Swedes aren't really hip on it per what I've read or seen either.  Yet the whole of Europe is pretty much in the 150 or greater category.  

 

As for silver bullets...........you are aware werewolves are science "fiction" right?  And this illustrates my point exactly.  Lock downs are silly, masks "appear" to be optional and the vast majority of folks recover from this.  Let's pool all the effort we are wasting on lock down's, masks and there nonsense on protecting the elderly and the sick and get on with life.

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40 minutes ago, Psalam said:

On the one hand, I wear a mask and I got COVID.

Exactly my point.  Mask use often encourages folks to do things they should not, thinking that they are protected somehow.  Cause Magic Science.  😁

40 minutes ago, Psalam said:

Will those things stop the spread of COVID-19? Absolutely not. Will they slow down the spread of COVID-19. Yes, they have been shown to do so. And, whenever they have been let up, the disease has come roaring back.

Right.  Except what is the point of slowing the spread?  You are just drawing this thing out.  The cure can't be worse than the disease.  We know almost to a "T" who this virus is lethal to.  Protect those folks and let's have some damn COOF parties.  Sounds silly, but is it really?  Provided the hospitals can keep up and we protect those most likely to die we get this over and done with, at least until the damn thing mutates and starts to go around again (hopefully not, but who knows).  We could do it several states at a time, bring back the hospital ships and have extra beds available in the surrounding states and give it a go.  The survival rate is 99.97%.  Subtract those over 70 and it gets MUCH better.  Let's give folks the facts and let them do their own risk assessment and move on.  Hell, each state can vote on it for that matter.  We can't keep doing this open, shut, open, shut nonsense.  Unless we intend to just say fuck it and go full out communist with the government owning everything.  Business are failing.  Folks are loosing their life savings.  Suicides, domestic abuse, murders, crimes, rioting, all these things are skyrocketing.  This nonsense about the new normal won't work.  American's are armed remember.  It will get really, really bad if we keep stretching this thing out.

40 minutes ago, Psalam said:

When COVID first came to the US the CDC estimated that there would be between 700k and 1200k deaths here if no attempt at mitigation was done. According to the CDC, as of yesterday, there were 253600 deaths in the US from COVID. There is still a long way to go. Even including "silent" cases (those without sufficient symptoms to be tested and so got COVID and no one knows it) it is unlikely that as much as 10% of the US population has now had COVID. Herd immunity kicks in at around 60%. Folks, we have a long way to go with this disease yet. It is irresponsible for anyone to not take the disease seriously or to ignore those few things that will help contain the spread. I reiterate, help contain - not stop, the spread.

No.  They said 2.2 million would be dead:  https://www.cato.org/blog/how-one-model-simulated-22-million-us-deaths-covid-19

 

I dispute the number of covid deaths.  Sorry.  I've seen too many stories of miscounting motorcycle accidents and so on.  Death "with" covid does not equal death "from" covid.  Did covid cut months and perhaps a year off of folks lives.  Most certainly.  But someone dying of cancer who has 6 months to live and gets that cut in half by getting covid should be counted separately.  Cancer was the real killer.  I think you understand comorbidities.  I've seen some data from the CDC that folks had 2.4 average comorbidities.  If true, that is HUGE and also needs to be factored in.  I don't understand why it is so damn hard to give the public the actual FACTS!  

 

As for how many folks have had the coof, your 10% could be off by 30%.  Look how many folks are asymptomatic.  I got the flue really bad back in early March.  Might have been covid.  Had many of the symptoms.   Was a rough couple of days and then about a week to get back to normal.  I didn't go to the hospital.  There were no test kits back then.  I may be immune for awhile.  Why should I not go back to normal life?  I've also seen studies that having the normal flue could give you a limited immunity to the virus.  I think this whole thing has been a giant lesson in what not to do.  Hell's Bells.  We now know that putting folks on ventilators they way we did early on was just killing them.  

 

Everything we have tried has not worked.  It is time consider different approaches.  Now I'm not advocating jumping in the deep end, but dipping our toes into the wading pool is not illogical.  The number of cases is completely irrelevant if folks are not dying or flooding the hospitals.  Surely we can strike a balance to getting herd immunity and not  collapsing the economy and depriving folks of their liberty.

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27 minutes ago, gregathit said:

As for silver bullets

In defense of my friend @Grey Cloud the term silver, or magic, bullet goes back To Dr. Ehrlich's finding of the first treatment for syphilis. While I recognize that most people would only know the science fiction/fantasy use of the term it is used in other contexts.

 

Spoiler

A silver (or magic) bullet is a perfect drug to cure a disease with no danger of side effects. The term magic bullet was first used in this sense by the German physician and scientist Paul Ehrlich who received the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1908.

 

Here I am again. I really must be crazy, "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome is one definition of insanity."

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1 minute ago, Psalam said:

In defense of my friend @Grey Cloud the term silver, or magic, bullet goes back To Dr. Ehrlich's finding of the first treatment for syphilis. While I recognize that most people would only know the science fiction/fantasy use of the term it is used in other contexts.

No matter which definition you use, the point I was making was the same.

2 minutes ago, Psalam said:

Here I am again. I really must be crazy, "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome is one definition of insanity."

😁

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1 minute ago, gregathit said:

We know almost to a "T" who this virus is lethal to.

Please tell me so that I can go warn them and their families. People of all ages and health conditions have succumbed to COVID. Earlier in the week a 15 year old died here in the Commonwealth of Kentucky with no known underlying conditions.

 

2 minutes ago, gregathit said:

Provide the hospitals can keep up

"Asked and answered" as the attorneys say. The hospitals CAN'T keep up now. Even if you could provide drugs and equipment there just isn't staffing (doctors and nurses). They are begging us to come out of retirement for God's sake. Many of my colleagues have retired this year to avoid the exposure.

3 minutes ago, gregathit said:

we protect those most likely to die

Nonetheless, there are always more nursing home outbreaks because, as you've already said, our mitigation efforts are not perfect.

 

4 minutes ago, gregathit said:

The survival rate is 99.97%. 

It might be now but it was 95% (and higher) at the beginning when we had no effective treatment (and people were espousing azithromycin and hydroxychloroquine). It will be again if healthcare facilities get overwhelmed, which, as I've said, is beginning to happen again now. (I say again because it happened in some localities - like New York and Italy - earlier).

 

7 minutes ago, gregathit said:

This nonsense about the new normal won't work.  American's are armed remember.

Damn! Do you mean I can kill COVID with a gun?

 I wasted all that money on medical school and time in residency and practice when things could have been done so much more simply.

 

9 minutes ago, gregathit said:

I dispute the number of covid deaths.

Again, asked and answered. I have already posted how cause of death is determined. I have also already said that it will be two years (or more) before we know the actually "excess deaths" caused by COVID. You can dispute known figures all you like but the rules haven't changed for COVID. Only figures that support your argument are valid?

 

Here's another fact. Another medical term for COVID-19 is SARS-2. That is, this is the second SARS like virus the world has seen. The first one was contained in East Asia. They did develop a system that worked and that's why pictures from that area of the world show people in masks (among other things). It isn't that there isn't a system that works, it's that people won't work the system. If you attend a 12 step meeting you'll often hear this phrase spoken in unison at the end, "it works if you work it and you die if you don't."

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5 minutes ago, Psalam said:

Please tell me so that I can go warn them and their families. People of all ages and health conditions have succumbed to COVID. Earlier in the week a 15 year old died here in the Commonwealth of Kentucky with no known underlying conditions.

I clearly said "almost to a T".  Go read my post again.  The likelihood for a 15 year old to die from covid is statistically less than being struck by lightening.  You know this.  You don't make decisions based on a lottery winning outlier.  Let's get real.  The statistics on the CDC website certainly identify who is at risk.  

As for your 15 year old:  https://www.wbko.com/2020/11/21/family-community-mourn-loss-of-ballard-co-teen-who-died-from-covid-19/

It is a fat kid.  Let's not mince words.  She had Leukemia for fucks sake!  How is that not an underlying condition?  Are we going to have a serious conversation or just blow smoke up one another's asses?

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55 minutes ago, gregathit said:

The cure can't be worse than the disease. 

It is not a cure. The disease kills.

 

55 minutes ago, gregathit said:

Exactly my point. 

No it is exactly mine and Psalam's point - masks are for helping to stop the spread, not to stop one from catching the virus.

 

55 minutes ago, gregathit said:

We know almost to a "T" who this virus is lethal to.

Everyone. Some groups are more susceptible but it is potentially lethal to all.

 

55 minutes ago, gregathit said:

Let's give folks the facts and let them do their own risk assessment and move on.

People have been given the facts for the last eight months or so. People refusing to accept the facts is another issue. Do their own risk assessment? Based on what information or qualification to interpret said information? What about one's risk to others? An 'I'm alright, Jack' attitude will not stop a contagious disease.

 

55 minutes ago, gregathit said:

Business are failing.  Folks are loosing their life savings.

That is down to your government not the disease. Sure there are economic problems here in the UK (and probably Europe) in general but the government here has taken measures to alleviate these.

 

55 minutes ago, gregathit said:

Suicides, domestic abuse, murders, crimes, rioting, all these things are skyrocketing.

This, if true, is down to your society and culture not the disease. I'm not seeing anything like this in the UK and I doubt it is like this in Europe generally.

 

55 minutes ago, gregathit said:

But someone dying of cancer who has 6 months to live and gets that cut in half by getting covid should be counted separately.  Cancer was the real killer.  I think you understand comorbidities.

@Psalam has previously posted about how death certificates are filled in with regard to causes and contributing factors. You are assuming that something you read on the Internet about something which may or may not be true is applicable to the rest of the world.

 

55 minutes ago, gregathit said:

Except what is the point of slowing the spread?

It buys time for the virus to mutate into something less dangerous? It buys time to develop a vaccine? What is the point of not slowing the spread?

 

55 minutes ago, gregathit said:

Why should I not go back to normal life? 

Because you can catch the virus more than once and even if the second dose doesn't harm you, you are still capable of spreading it to others.

 

You have been flogging the same argument for eight months now yet I have yet to see a single health organisation from the WHO down to an individual state advocate anything like what you propose.

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16 minutes ago, gregathit said:

Let's not mince words.  She had Leukemia for fucks sake!

See below:

Spoiler

The 5-year survival rate for children with ALL has greatly increased over time and is now about 90% overall. In general, children in lower risk groups have a better outlook than those in higher risk groups. But it's important to know that even children in higher risk groups can often still be cured.

Most children with leukemia live, for fuck's sake. And the risk groups cited here don't include being fat but the cell-type of the leukemia. Most children with leukemia who get COVID will live for fuck's sake. Who gives a rat's ass if she was fat. I'm fat and so are most Americans. Should we all just be lined up and shot? 

 

About masks:

 

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4 hours ago, Alkpaz said:

Man, is everyone from Texas on this site?! :P

A lot.. Texas is BIG in some cases as big as many countries ;)  This site is based in the US and primarily English speaking. Makes sense Texas would be heavy on the site.

3 hours ago, Bazinga said:

Meanwhile in Asia.

But sure, physicians don't know what they are doing when deciding the cause of death was Covid 19. Of course you guys know better.

I would laugh if it wasn't so sad.

It has been reported many times that the process for judging Covid 19 cases was in no way standard across the board.  Reports of people being diagnosed with Covid dying from a auto accident or other completely unrelated instance.  This was early on. Not sure if they tightened up the reporting.  Oh, there are also reports and suspicions that China has been reporting lower numbers in order to "save face" than the actual instances.  In many ways it is political. States in the US have different degrees. I have seen many democratic states showing higher than the same type makeup etc of another state that is republican.  Fuck... now I broke the rule of this site regarding politics... See what you made me do :P lol

 

I was of the same mind as you @Bazinga some time ago. But, as time goes on the "hype" and such of Covid is becoming more and more apparent. The truth is out there. There are people willing to send you info on the opposite views of what you are on. Ive seen countless and can see their points. Many have some merit to a degree.

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15 minutes ago, Psalam said:

"Asked and answered" as the attorneys say. The hospitals CAN'T keep up now. Even if you could provide drugs and equipment there just isn't staffing (doctors and nurses). They are begging us to come out of retirement for God's sake. Many of my colleagues have retired this year to avoid the exposure.

Nonetheless, there are always more nursing home outbreaks because, as you've already said, our mitigation efforts are not perfect.

Total Bullshit.  At the peak of the crisis in New York the hospital ship that you know who sent was NEVER used.  There are NO overfilled hospitals with Covid.  I'm not saying that hospitals are not full, for fuck's sake folks were forced to wait for cancer treatments due to fears of covid overwhelming the hospitals.  Many hospitals have lost a fuck ton of money due to being forced to be empty waiting on the wave of covid folks who NEVER CAME.  This is just spouting more media bullshit that is just not true.  It is not hard to do a quick google search to discover this.  There are no temp hospitals being set up anywhere in the US.  Again, let's have a real conversation with FACTS or skip it altogether.  

 

As for folks retiring, so what.  This has nothing to do with the price of tea in china.  I have seen nothing of hospitals screaming for help.  I have seen hospitals laying folks off.

 

Nursing homes and hospitals are the places that we REALLY need to concentrate on protecting.  Effective screening of staff and family visits are what we need to concentrate on.  Doing this alone would have a HUGE impact on keeping the death rate low.

23 minutes ago, Psalam said:

It might be now but it was 95% (and higher) at the beginning when we had no effective treatment (and people were espousing azithromycin and hydroxychloroquine). It will be again if healthcare facilities get overwhelmed, which, as I've said, is beginning to happen again now. (I say again because it happened in some localities - like New York and Italy - earlier).

I disagree.  I've seen no sign or anything except cases going up.  As for HydroxyC, more and more studies are stating it works early and for prevention.  What I still don't understand is why there is a persistent effort in the US to silence doctors and others who are in the frontline treating this and making recommendations.  I just don't get this suppression of doctors who are not preaching this narrow party line.  Again, cases alone are meaningless.

28 minutes ago, Psalam said:

Damn! Do you mean I can kill COVID with a gun?

Trolling isn't productive.  I clearly was stating an armed populace can only be bullied for so long before they decide enough is enough.  God help us if we are pushed that far.

31 minutes ago, Psalam said:

Again, asked and answered. I have already posted how cause of death is determined. I have also already said that it will be two years (or more) before we know the actually "excess deaths" caused by COVID. You can dispute known figures all you like but the rules haven't changed for COVID. Only figures that support your argument are valid?

Again, pointless and trolling.  I dispute the numbers because they make ZERO distinction between death "with" covid and death "from" covid.   This is a rather large distinction.  I've stated that we won't know for quite some time back when we had a covid thread and cautioned folks to quit jumping here and there over the fake news narrative.  I have no agenda here.  All I want are the facts to be made public so that folks make their risk assessment and act accordingly.

35 minutes ago, Psalam said:

Here's another fact. Another medical term for COVID-19 is SARS-2. That is, this is the second SARS like virus the world has seen. The first one was contained in East Asia. 

And what magical bullet "contained it"?  Or was it is just not a viable enough virus and simply failed.  Virology is a fascinating field.  Not every virus succeeds.  Covid might be a radical mutation of SARS as the virus evolved into a much more successful virus.  I'm not a virologist so I don't know one way or the other.

40 minutes ago, Psalam said:

They did develop a system that worked and that's why pictures from that area of the world show people in masks (among other things). 

Debunked.  Most mask use was for pollution.  

41 minutes ago, Psalam said:

It isn't that there isn't a system that works, it's that people won't work the system. If you attend a 12 step meeting you'll often hear this phrase spoken in unison at the end, "it works if you work it and you die if you don't."

Hogwash.  Platitudes are meaningless.  If "masks" or "whatever" were such a crucial thing to solve things then the government, medical and health professionals should all be criminally prosecuted.  Where are the 12 step training programs on training folks how to wear masks properly and for what durations?  Why are masks being strapped on children?  Just watch a person wearing a mask for 10 minutes and watch how many times they fiddle with them.  Once they fiddle with them do they change the mask and wash their hands?  You were most certainly trained on mask usage.  Why is no one discussing that the virus can enter the body through the eyes?  Children with masks are a huge joke.  Watch them for 5 minutes and you'll have "things not to do with a mask" list in short order.  If this is a really serious virus, where are the serious and practical policies and training?  Instead we have platitudes and knee jerk reactions.  It serves no purpose but spreading confusion.

 

Look I want this to end as much as anyone.  I'm just tired of being told to do things "because".  I have one mom, and that is enough.

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20 minutes ago, Psalam said:

See below:

  Reveal hidden contents

Most children with leukemia live, for fuck's sake. And the risk groups cited here don't include being fat but the cell-type of the leukemia. Most children with leukemia who get COVID will live for fuck's sake. Who gives a rat's ass if she was fat. I'm fat and so are most Americans. Should we all just be lined up and shot? 

Diabetes is a known comorbidity.  Look at the data.  Being overweight is definitely a factor in covid deaths.

You FALSELY claimed there were no known underlying factors.  With a 5 second google search I called Bullshit on that.  

While most (70%) do live, some still do die (30%).  It depends on a lot of factors.  Do you have the autopsy?  Did it specify what subtype of AML she had?  Stop with the theatrics.

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16 minutes ago, gregathit said:

T

 

Just watch a person wearing a mask for 10 minutes and watch how many times they fiddle with them.  Once they fiddle with them do they change the mask and wash their hands?  You were most certainly trained on mask usage.  Why is no one discussing that the virus can enter the body through the eyes?  Children with masks are a huge joke.  Watch them for 5 minutes and you'll have "things not to do with a mask" list in short order. 

You forgot mentioning how long the virus can live on surfaces.... Washing hands before touching your face or food is IMO so very important but nobody seems to be pushing that.

 

Improper mask wearing, that is one thing that pisses me off. People that believe mask are required.. screaming about not wearing them but do shit like pull them down to talk to someone. Using the mask as a neck protector or the all famous peeking nose face mask procedure.  Not even getting into how many times the fuss with the mask, drop them on the ground outside along with the gloves instead of properly disposing of them.  FFS either use them properly or don't use them at all. 

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43 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

It is not a cure. The disease kills.

Debunked as pointless theatrics like most of your comments.

45 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

No it is exactly mine and Psalam's point - masks are for helping to stop the spread, not to stop one from catching the virus.

There is zero proof of this, but hey, pretending isn't against the law.  Knock yourself out.

46 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

Everyone. Some groups are more susceptible but it is potentially lethal to all.

False.  Zero back up for this.  But do waste your time looking.

47 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

People have been given the facts for the last eight months or so. People refusing to accept the facts is another issue. Do their own risk assessment? Based on what information or qualification to interpret said information? What about one's risk to others? An 'I'm alright, Jack' attitude will not stop a contagious disease.

More nonsensical drivel that has zero basis in science or logic.

48 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

That is down to your government not the disease. Sure there are economic problems here in the UK (and probably Europe) in general but the government here has taken measures to alleviate these.

This demonstrates an acute lack of economics knowledge.  Government stop gap measures have a cost that will have to be paid.  Unless you are fine with just renting everything from the government.  In the US, the governments response has been pathetic for small businesses.

51 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

This, if true, is down to your society and culture not the disease. I'm not seeing anything like this in the UK and I doubt it is like this in Europe generally.

Then you are not looking.  Google still works.  CDC:  https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6932a1.htm

57 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

@Psalam has previously posted about how death certificates are filled in with regard to causes and contributing factors. You are assuming that something you read on the Internet about something which may or may not be true is applicable to the rest of the world.

Wrong.  What is on the certificate varies from state to state and sometimes varies from county to county within some states.  There are countless examples of certs being filled out poorly.  Again, this is all irrelevant as the data totals are all being lumped together with no distinction between "with" and "from".   As I've stated countless times, this will take time and a lot of effort to filter through and sort out.

1 hour ago, Grey Cloud said:

It buys time for the virus to mutate into something less dangerous? It buys time to develop a vaccine? What is the point of not slowing the spread?

No.  We need to reach herd immunity.  That is the key.  It has always been the key.  We need to do it as quickly as possible while still keeping the deaths to a minimum.

1 hour ago, Grey Cloud said:

Because you can catch the virus more than once and even if the second dose doesn't harm you, you are still capable of spreading it to others.

False.  There have only been 4 "supposedly" documented cases of folks getting the coof twice.  All four initial cases were not confirmed and were asymptomatic and the "supposed" second time they got the coof were also asymptomatic.  If I'm wrong, provide the link and proof.

1 hour ago, Grey Cloud said:

You have been flogging the same argument for eight months now yet I have yet to see a single health organisation from the WHO down to an individual state advocate anything like what you propose.

I didn't realize logic wasn't an argument.  My bad.  As for folks pushing back on the narrative, they are legion.  The problem is Youtube, twitter and Facebook ban them.  

Netherland Doctors filing lawsuit over fake pandemic:  https://www.algora.com/Algora_blog/2020/10/17/covid-19-is-a-normal-flu-virus-lawsuit-against-the-state-of-the-netherlands

US Doctors group:  https://www.americasfrontlinedoctors.com/media/videos/ and I could go on and on.  It is funny how normal medical science involve collaboration and yet with the coof there is this toe the line or else you get silenced thing going on.  Clearly there is an agenda.  Don't know if it is a money thing or what, but something smells in Denmark (paraphrased misquote from William Shakespeare's Hamlet).  🤪

 

And then you see stories like this:  https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/health/health-care-open-letter-protests-coronavirus-trnd/index.html

If the coof was so super serious, why was it ok for "protesting" large crowds to gather?  Something is a smelling rotten with this methinks.

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1 hour ago, Grey Cloud said:

 

 

No it is exactly mine and Psalam's point - masks are for helping to stop the spread, not to stop one from catching the virus.

 

 

I work with up to 300 people a day from the general population. The majority of them can't even wear the mask properly. Heaven forbid you try to give them guidance!  They then leave the place and toss the mask to the ground. along with any gloves not disposing of them properly.  Those that can wear a mask properly, even those I work with (of which many like the nose peek a boo method of wearing mask themselves, or the famous neck protector mask process) fidget and fuss with their mask then go about touching everything in sight without using the heavily readily available hand sanitizers at every turn.  IMO general population can't  wear mask properly. I also believe, that improper mask wearing is even more dangerous than not wearing any at all. It can lull someone into a sense of safety but in reality they are spreading it about themselves .. even those that use the mask properly.. .by removing it and disposing of it improperly.  Not to mention the lack of proper hand-washing.

 

The idea might be good on paper but in execution.. not so much. This is an reality I am confident that anyone that doubts this can go to any public location and just watch what people do.. they will soon come to the same conclusion. People are shit when it comes to compliance and proper use of PPE if they aren't from or trained in a medical background. (Which FYI I am)

 

As for spreading the virus... I work in an essential" job. (non medical) I see hundreds of people daily as well as my fellow co-workers. There have been exposure scares several times at work. One time shutting down an entire department seriously fucking up our operation. There has even been a shutdown of the store and "sanitation" of the store (foggers) from professionals.  Several tracing events. and how many actually proven to have captured the virus from working there?  ..... ZERO.... How many spread it to other workers .. (lunch with groups of people still sitting next to each other) .... ZERO... EACH CASE HAS BEEN TRACED TO A COHABITATION, FAMILY MEMBER, SEXUAL PARTNER,  ETC!  All the half assed masking wearing, dirty hands and sudo distancing (lunch tables) netted zero cases of  infection due to work environments. This might not be the case for everybody but it is my experience. Early on I was scared shitless about Covid. Now with the advancements of medical understanding and the drop of the death rate to a more "flu" like levels not so much.

 

According to some statistics my location has 20% penetration of the virus. Meaning 20% of everybody that I will meet and interact with at a store or my work has a chance to spread it. 2 in 10 ... My Public job is exposed to potentially 100's to 1000's of people weekly. Nobody at my place of work has been traced to have caught Covid from work.. let that sink into you for a moment. The nature of most of the employees at my work is face to face. Yet... we are entering yet another "shutdown" due to the infection rate. I don't see the science behind that judgement based on my experience. I can see why people are so outraged at the new lockdowns.

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