Sexlab Survival

[Nazzzgul666]

1 hour ago, donttouchmethere said:

bWitch is casting with hotkeys, it doesn't need you to be in a combat mode. It doesn't use casting animations, just insta casting. Very useful for DD, DT3 (those heels hurt), combat (self heal => that's why SLS magic collar hurts so much, most evil device in my game), get summons, heal the party.

 

 

Then use the SLS help call near cities/towns.

(doesn't the SLS help call also work on soldiers? If not, that would be a great addition)

 

 

I completly forgot about the help call. Still not the final solution, i guess. bWitch sounds better and better, though, will try.

Quote

Wait why do you want to kill wolfs calmed by SLS amputation?

SLS amputation seems to be the only thing that reliable calm them all (not sure enemy plus has some messed up factions ^^)

All you need is a mod that allows approaches with calmed actors. SLAC SE + DEC is a great combo for that

 

 

With legs only amputated, they are NOT calmed but you still can't enter combat mode. That's the entire point.^^ Having a chance for sex with them afterwards would be a nice bonus but that i'm entirely helpless and just get killed is what actually bothers me. xD

18 minutes ago, firepunch1 said:

"A hyena protecting its territory will apply more pressure with its jaw than a lion three times its own size." - Google 

While not technically a wolf, their skulls and skeletal structure are undeniably similiar, they're also smaller than the wolves of Skyrim. 

 

 

This "technically not the same" matters. A hyena is different in skeleton and skull and muscle structure. Looking similar doesn't matter much, and size doesn't matter either here. And in either case, they can't in SLS. Changing that would be a possible alternative, though.

[firepunch1]

13 minutes ago, Nazzzgul666 said:

This "technically not the same" matters. A hyena is different in skeleton and skull and muscle structure. Looking similar doesn't matter much, and size doesn't matter either here.

I'll just give you the number, it's upwards of 1200 PSI. Hence why they rival most species of bear, except for the polar variant and a few others. The reason I used the hyena as an example was because they actually go for and consume bone as part of their regular diet, compared to wolves who'll more often than not be more interested in nothing but the meat (unless they're hunting in packs.)

 

I'll stand by size being a large factor in the strenght of one's bite...

 

The wolf has a very powerful bite and has the largest bite pressure of any canid. Wolves can crush large bones in just a couple of bites. - CaliforniaWolfCenter

Better?  

 

18 minutes ago, Nazzzgul666 said:

And in either case, they can't in SLS. Changing that would be a possible alternative, though.

I'd love to see such a change, but it's still up to how benevolent Monoman1 feels today. 

[Kamekami]

Wow... this is a pretty complex mod

 

but the way that npcs ask peverted stuff to a complet stranger in front of everybody was quite unimmersive to me... so i have some suggestions, first is some type of begging escalation or progretion(depending on the npc morality or relationship if possible) > first time you beg npcs will just give what you want, if you beg again they will ask something more inoccent in retribution like some firewood or delivering something to another npc, but if you abuse their kindness than they will be more cruel... no one likes a annoying begger no matter if is your friend.

 

second is a new more extreme cumadiction level greather than cum junkie with some effects like:

>chance of cum hunger be increased by swallowing instead of being decreased. 

>auto suck radius increased, currently auto suck only triggers if you are very close to a creature and it is extreme easy to avoid and also will be funny to see the PC running towards a creature like horses do when they want to breed 

>the third is maybe the most extreme... the PC's stomach is now so used to cum that will reject anything that is not cum, this means eating food will no longer able to satiate the hunger provided by mods like RND or Ineed (probably this will be the hardest to program)

[donttouchmethere]

2 hours ago, Nazzzgul666 said:

I completly forgot about the help call. Still not the final solution, i guess. bWitch sounds better and better, though, will try.

The SLS Call for help is very promising, I hope it can be expanded a bit (not always guards close by, help if locked in zaz furniture ^^).

(actually I use it the most if SD+ enslaved - can't fight- don't want to get the owner killed)

 

If you add bWitch to your LO, don't use too many of it's additional functions (like pain slut and stuff, last time I used that POP got totally confused by it during whipping) if you don't want to add more polling/active scripts.

 

Combine Bwitch and SkyUI hotkeys in case a mod prevents you to open inventory/spell window

 

What is safe to use from my experience in a complex LO (complex = too much ^^):

> Bound casting via hotkeys

> Gagged Shout (causes to rise arousal of NPC instead, useful if you WANT to be approached, goes well together with DEC & SLAC and/or sitting in zap furniture after NDUN defeat) => prevents any shouts if gagged. Fails sometimes, guess depends on the gag?

> Blacksmith help with DDs => useful if you need an additional escape option (it's a bit limited), works well with DL together, because DL blacksmith don't help until relationshiprank with blacksmith is above 0. Warning: that MCM setting for DD removal price is x1000, means if you set it to 1 you still have to pay 1000 gold. Best to set it to the same price or higher (because it can remove multiple DDs in one go) as DL Blacksmiths.

 

Alternative: any Casting mod from Nexus that allows you to insta cast via hotkeys. bWitch is the most simple to use tho (don't need tons of options if I only cast the same stuff ^^,I limit myself to selfheal, party heal, summon, levitation (useful if you can't jump or get annoyed by devious adventures, have that all the time already lol), frostfall spells, NFF spells, for the calixto quest you need to be able to cast a damage spell if bound from SLS)

 

Careful with damage spells, you don't want the aggro (unless you want => calixto for example, guards do the rest)

 

2 hours ago, Nazzzgul666 said:

With legs only amputated, they are NOT calmed but you still can't enter combat mode. That's the entire point.^^ Having a chance for sex with them afterwards would be a nice bonus but that i'm entirely helpless and just get killed is what actually bothers me. xD

Yeah, you found the most painful gap in my calming tactics => creatures

Usually NDUN harmless would be perfect for that (get naked and unarmed and wiggle that ass) but it doesn't calm creatures.

If crawling after legs got amputated you could only roleplay by either calm via spell (with ugly spell effect) or if you want to go all hardcore, surrender via SD+ to the creature (now you can wiggle that ass all day^^). Surrender via SD+ to the creature has the nice side effect that you have a now friendly creature that watches over you while you crawl somewhere for help (warning, it's a bit glitched, handle with care).

Maybe ask in SLAC SE topic for a creature calming if ass wiggling option ^^ Although it would fit into SLS too with all the creature sucking features and a mechanic to calm everything via amputation ?

[audhol]

@Nazzzgul666 @donttouchmethere @Monoman1

In reference to you discussion about having a crawl with no legs can one of you check this zombie crawl anim out please with no legs cause I can't seem to get amputator to work on SE. It's a slow anim so you have to go slowly but I guess you would if you had no legs. It's only a rough mockup but if it looks ok maybe monoman could use it as a way to at least drag yourself to a priest/troll with no legs. Cheers guys.

sneakwalk_forward.hkx

[firepunch1]

31 minutes ago, Kamekami said:

but the way that npcs ask peverted stuff to a complet stranger in front of everybody was quite unimmersive to me... so i have some suggestions, first is some type of begging escalation or progretion(depending on the npc morality or relationship if possible)

I think the dialogue is supposed to be surprisingly blunt as a result of this mod transforming Skyrim into a misogynistic country. No one would bat an eye at a man calling a dog a dog. That's immersive imo. 

 

The closest currently existing mod to your description I know of is Sexlab Approach Redux. Basically NPC's will converse with you and factors like morality, relationship, your answers, prior conversations and stuff like that can lead to you being taken with force.

 

 

 

[Monoman1]

3 hours ago, firepunch1 said:

A hyena protecting its territory will apply more pressure with its jaw than a lion three times its own size." - Google 

We're getting into semantics folks. In a game with wizards, dragons and cock shaped mushrooms....

1 hour ago, Kamekami said:

but the way that npcs ask peverted stuff to a complet stranger in front of everybody was quite unimmersive to me

1, Like firepunch say SLS is meant to make the world a misogynistic mess. Women are for entertainment and cooking the dinner for the men and should be seen and not heard. 

2. And more importantly. The begging dialogue is already a big mess. I posted a pic of it here. The dialogue flow chart is really really slow at this point. Making even small changes painful. There's another way to do dialogue but I'm used to the flowchart way. But it's not good for massive dialogue trees (which begging is). 

 

1 hour ago, Kamekami said:

auto suck radius increased, currently auto suck only triggers

This is controlled by the 'greeting distance' setting in the misogyny menu. The problem is that it's global and also affects Npc greetings. Not a whole lot I can do about that. 

1 hour ago, Kamekami said:

he PC's stomach is now so used to cum that will reject anything that is not cum

I thought of this before but!

1. There's a real timing conundrum involved. I'd have to continuously check what level your satiation is at- periodic updates (which I try to avoid for anything except short periods of time). Because I have no idea when you'll eat/drink something. I could check for the inventory opening before you eat something but you can hotkey stuff and iNeed has lovely auto-eating etc.

2. It involved working on needs mods. And I hate working on needs mods now. 3 disparate needs mods. Any change/feature/mechanic = 3 times the work. And some of these needs mods are a real pain to work with. 

 

59 minutes ago, audhol said:

@Nazzzgul666 @donttouchmethere @Monoman1

In reference to you discussion about having a crawl with no legs can one of you check this zombie crawl anim out please with no legs cause I can't seem to get amputator to work on SE. It's a slow anim so you have to go slowly but I guess you would if you had no legs. It's only a rough mockup but if it looks ok maybe monoman could use it as a way to at least drag yourself to a priest/troll with no legs. Cheers guys.

sneakwalk_forward.hkx 13.13 kB · 1 download

Can't check right now. Will do later. 

[Monoman1]

Regarding amputation. I think the only thing I can do right now as a stop-gap is just to remove the cooldown on amputation when you get a leg chopped off. This means that when you lose a leg:

1. You're going to be a sitting duck until you lose your arms. Assuming you don't get killed before that happens. 

2. By extension - you're basically going to always end up in the same state when you lose a leg (you'll lose all limbs most likely as you won't be able to fight back. Which is a bit.... shit).

[migueltorga]

Im not even playing Skyrim as of now, have the game uninstalled. But i really enjoyed this mod, glad to see it got many updates and still is being perfected. I just wonder, does it work in other mods that allow you to travell to High Rock, Cyrodill, Summerset and whatnot? Will it ever?

[Lupine00]

7 hours ago, Monoman1 said:

Continuing to attack until all your limbs are gone seems extreme and will also be blocked by the 'cooldown'. So you'll be setting there getting hacked at for a while. Nothing is ever simple. You (not you specifically) just think it is at the outset. 

 

Edit: Actually this reminds me that getting your legs chopped off means you're stuck crawling and you can't sneak. Can't sneak means you can't fondle. Can't fondle = no troll fun time to regain your limbs. Catch 22. Yet another complication. 

I vaguely remember some crawling sneak animations where your PC would enter a lower stance with her back more arched and her ass higher while sneaking. But can't remember where they came from. 

If wolves can't bite your arms while you're standing, they certainly should be able to if you have no legs and are crawling. And why trolls are prevented from performing arm removal is puzzling in itself. It seems extremely arbitrary.

 

If you've lost enough limbs already, maybe it's just less trouble for the player to remove the cooldown so the poor player can get the misery over with more quickly and be saved into helplessless (but that has the problem Monoman identified, of making it very much all or nothing). Possibly, SLAV did this lost foot thing better, and it got kind of annoying even in SLAV after the third time.

 

 

On the second point, whether or not you can sneak while crawling is a choice, not a requirement.

It depends on what you choose to implement.

 

If you think the only thing blocking it is access to a different animation, you can just use the regular crawling animation for sneak state.

I don't have a problem with being able to sneak while crawling using the existing animation, it's sneaky enough as it is.

 

The "Crawl on All Fours" mod from 2013 https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/33097 was originally written to replace the sneak animation, and includes an alternate animation that is more cat-like. Alas, that has BPP on it, but probably not the end of the world.

 

But ... replacing that animation set is consuming a finite resource of "full override" animations.

 

 

Yes, "Nothing is ever simple" is simply a corollary of "Monoman likes things complicated". Something like this amputation functionality would be the entire mod for a lot of modders. It's taking something as complex as "Wounds" and dropping it into SLS as an almost throwaway feature. This tends to limit the time that can be given to tuning and refining it, which would be ok, but...

 

 

Tweaking amputation is basically balancing the entire Skyrim game-playability on the head of a pin.

Amputation is a single feature that can make or break the entire game.

 

 

When you get hurt and lose limbs, it is a huge deal that blocks whatever you were doing, like an inescapable armbinder that jumps onto you mid-dungeon - and we know how everyone loves the way those suddenly derail their game in a location where there's no backtracking and no re-entering.

 

I'm not being totally sarcastic, as people do like to be derailed once in a while, but if it happens often enough, it will end up disabled.

 

If it happens in a de-leveled playthrough while you're in Skuldafn, it's not fun anymore, it's just broken your game. That could have been fixed in DCL by making a list of dungeons that should not trigger devious traps. Instead, it was half fixed by excluding some dungeons from the combat defeat feature - and exposing that list to the player so they can add to it. In that case, it's a core feature of a years old mod that has never been properly finished. Normal for Skyrim modding, but not a pattern to aspire to.

 

 

The amputation system has a somewhat profound impact on the PC's ability to fight, make money, progress the game, and not get enslaved by bandits/falmer/spriggans or whatever. A single lost hand leads to a lost fight, that leads to days of enslavement, that leads to a skooma, alcohol and cum addiction, that leads to a PC who spends the next major phase of the game, dressed in nothing but bondage gear, hiding behind her follower, and acting as a loot mule.

 

Either limb-loss is something you can quickly and easily recover from, or it's a game-derailer, or the player gets to choose, but the only effective alternative to those options is "no limb loss", which is what happens when you take the chance and keep turning it down, and turning it down because it's constantly derailing your game.

 

 

Right now, the player can pull some levers to configure how often they get amputations, but there are few ways to tune the ease of healing, other than peppering your world with non-aggressive trolls, which is a very strange mechanism for tuning a feature.

 

 

The easiest solution for a player is simply not to enable it.

 

 

I haven't had a lot of success tuning amputation frequency. It seems to go from "quite a lot" to "almost never" based on quite small adjustments. There seems to be something fundamentally unstable about that rate, or the way it is experienced.

 

And I can't bring myself to fill my game with friendly trolls.

 

 

 

I think this problem is really the tip of a much bigger iceberg in terms of the design of features that can derail your game, not just in SLS, but across the entire range of BDSM and "sexist" high-disparity mods; an iceberg too big to navigate here and now. Getting back on point...

 

Problems

• Amputation occurring too often.
• Amputation occurring not often enough.
• Amputation frequency adjustment is non-intuitively non-linear.
• Amputation beyond losing a single hand or arm is catastrophic.
• Lost leg(s) make you effectively helpless, but you still get attacked.
• Recovery from amputation requires at least a trip to city or remote location that might, just might, have a troll present.
• Recovery from amputation in cities requires money, and a limbless cripple tends not to have any.
• Troll presence is not reliable, as you don't know if dead trolls are respawned yet.
• Friendly trolls in cities makes priests largely redundant.
• Can't drink cum if gagged, but SLS likes to add gags to cripples.

 

[Lupine00]

Amputation chance is non-linear.

I think this is mathematically true.

 

Imagine simplistic fights, no power attacks, no hits from behind, no armor, no criticals...

(All things a system could consider, and we know SLS considers some of these).

 

 

Let's say my amputation chance is 90% per hit.

And let's say I take five hits in a fight.

To not be amputated, there is a 10% chance per hit, and that is raised to a power, so... the chance to not be amputated is 0.1^5, which is 0.0001, or 0.001%.

Amputation is not 9 in 10 in this case, it's effectively 100% certain you will be amputated.

 

Now, if my amputation chance is 10% per hit.

The chance to not be amputated in a given fight is 0.9^5 = (approx) 0.59, or 59%. That is to say, 41% chance of amputation.

 

These chances do not line up with what you'd naively expect from setting 90% or 10% on a slider.

You'd think 90% is pretty likely, but 10%, it could still be as high as 40% in practice.

 

 

The results of changing that amputate chance slider aren't intuitive in any way, and the value that's determining the outcome is predominantly "number of eligible hits taken".

 

In practice that is predominantly determined by other factors, like hit count, the armor rule, or power-attacks rule.

 

All the "useful" percentage adjustment is around the very low end of the "chance to amputate" scale, and other factors, like number of hits, and chance of taking power attacks, or attacks eligible to amputate is overwhelmingly important (armor modifers) - more important than the chance the player thinks they are setting - a value that is very hard to determine an outcome from.

 

So, when the player changes the armor modifier only slightly, the outcome is non-linear.

 

 

In SLS, if you have some armor, you won't get amputations. It's pretty much a rule, and my experience bears this out.

It depends on how you set the slider for armor of course, but it doesn't depend in a very intuitive way.

 

This is also a slippery-slope mechanic; a self-reinforcing system...

 

If your armor gets stolen, or denied by devices, suddenly you become extremely vulnerable to amputation, and it all goes down hill from there.

Or, you play a mage-build ... you're going to get amputated a lot ... this was a big problem in Wounds too ... it privileged heavy tanks enormously and made stealth archer a much better option than destruction mage.

 

 

At the very least, the percentage chance and armor modifiers should be controlled via log sliders.

But without much knowledge of how often power-attacks occur, or how often attacks hit, the system cannot be tuned in any intuitive way.

 

If you play Requiem style - you rarely take hits - hits are very bad, but you have more chance to avoid them, and you simply dare not enter fights where you think you'll get hit (such as against large numbers of enemies).

A Requiem fight where you take two or three hits is uncommon. A vanilla fight where you take two or three hits is normal, unless you easily overpower the enemies.

If you play vanilla, hits happen all the time.

 

Requiem-centric thinking makes it hard to balance for "normal" players and skews the way you end up perceiving amputation chances much more than is initially apparent.

 

 

One way to solve the uncontrollable chance is to totally cheat; to count fights and skew the amputation chance in each subsequent fight based on an expected number of amputations per fight where you got hit, etc. I suspect this wouldn't sit well with a lot of people if they knew it was going on. It's a trick Bethesda could hide in their C++, but won't fly for SLS. It feels unfair, despite actually being fair (as long as you weight the fight contribution based on the percentage of health lost or similar).

 

 

Another approach is to dramatically reduce the gating effects and simply base the amputate chance on a transform of the damage taken as a fraction of the player's health. Don't limit to power attacks, don't consider armor, or if you do consider them, make the modifier effect much, much less than it currently is. This makes things a lot more predictable for the player.

 

This could be combined with a simple system that puts a cooldown on amputate checks (not actual amputations, no need to cooldown them at all).

 

For example:

We calculate the fraction of player health lost in a hit, then raise to a power, and scale by the player's configured percentage.

After a hit, there is no chance of amputation for a (real time) cooldown of 10 seconds; it simply isn't considered again until the 10 seconds are up.

e.g.

• Player has 250 health.
• Player takes a 75 point hit.
• Player has 20% chance of amputation configured.
• The power factor is 1.5

75/250 = 0.3

0.3 ^ 1.5 = 0.1643

0.1643 x 0.2 = 0.033 = 3.3% chance of amputation for that fight (unless it goes on for longer than ten seconds).

 

 

Now the "number of hits per combat" is effectively always one, and doesn't depend on armor so directly, or on power attacks, just that you took a lot of damage.

If you have very low base health to start with, it's more likely.

 

Privileging the first hit in a fight is sort of lame. I could suggest ways around that, but it's getting complicated and distracting from what is just an example.

Assuming the cooldown is 10 seconds, you could get amputation from a later hit, assuming there are any.

This makes the chance proportional to quantized fight length, which is at least ... somewhat intuitive.

 

Tweaking the power factor clearly skews how the damage balance works, and I won't go into that too much, it's just an option.

Set the power less than one, and the curve goes one way, higher than one and the chance curve goes the other way.

So, using a power > 1.0 means that tiny hits are significantly less likely to cause amputations, but it's a sliding scale.

 

e.g.

        Factor  0.8      1.0      1.5      3.0

Chance   

  0.01          0.025    0.010    0.001    0.000001

  0.1           0.158    0.100    0.031    0.001

  0.5           0.574    0.500    0.354    0.125

  0.9           0.919    0.900    0.853    0.729

  0.99          0.999    0.990    0.985    0.970

 

 

It's just an example of one approach, but it solves the problem of high-non-linearity, and unpredictable non-intuitive factors like "chance of power attack" by simply not considering those things. They don't improve the player experience, they are bogus "simulation" that causes confusion.

 

The more you drag in special mechanics like "if you're hit from behind", or "if you're blocking", the less and less predictable the system becomes, and the harder it gets for the player to tune the frequency.

 

The more you try to "simulate" based on combat mechanics, which are highly unreliable in Skyrim, the more it becomes unpredictable and strange.

 

With this setup, due to the damage mitigation design of Skyrim armor, mages still have more risk than a heavy armored tank, but it's not as all-or-nothing "pivot point" based as the existing design.

[Nazzzgul666]

7 hours ago, Monoman1 said:

Regarding amputation. I think the only thing I can do right now as a stop-gap is just to remove the cooldown on amputation when you get a leg chopped off. This means that when you lose a leg:

1. You're going to be a sitting duck until you lose your arms. Assuming you don't get killed before that happens. 

2. By extension - you're basically going to always end up in the same state when you lose a leg (you'll lose all limbs most likely as you won't be able to fight back. Which is a bit.... shit).

I don't think that would change much in my case. Usually i only lose 1 thing per enemy, not because of the cool down but because they don't hit me more often, at least not with power attacks. If you don't want to either enable fighting or calming for lost legs, i guess i'll go back to default settings and prevent if from ever happen.  Or try bWitch as a workaround.

[Lupine00]

I didn't write anything about the flip-side of amputation, which is recovery.

 

Unlike the actual amputations, which would benefit (perhaps) from some relatively well bounded tweaks to the amputation chance calculation for a given hit, recovery is a bit more of an open-ended problem.

 

It would be neat if your DF could somehow help you out when you have amputation problems.

Or take advantage.

 

"I think losing your arms was the best thing that could happen. Now you can be my pet full-time. Isn't that wonderful?"

"This plug-gag will stop you asking any pesky priests for a cure, or sucking on any nasty troll-cocks."

"Don't worry, I'll make sure you get a regular diet of horse cum and lactacid. You won't starve."

 

Probably a bit of a nasty outcome...

 

Screen fades to black.

Fades back.

Close up on the PC, naked, covered in cum and boobs inflated so each one is bigger than the rest of her body.

Quest message comes up: SKYRIM - FAILED.

Game over.

   

[Monoman1]

11 hours ago, migueltorga said:

Im not even playing Skyrim as of now, have the game uninstalled. But i really enjoyed this mod, glad to see it got many updates and still is being perfected. I just wonder, does it work in other mods that allow you to travell to High Rock, Cyrodill, Summerset and whatnot? Will it ever?

Ahh I honestly don't know myself. Haven't played those mods at all. But Straight of the bat there'll be no tolls or licence enforcers. I don't think it's possible to add these without a hard dependency. 

[Lupine00]

5 minutes ago, Monoman1 said:

there'll be no tolls or licence enforcers

They would have silly dialog anyway, because no civil war. Also foreign.

[Lupine00]

17 hours ago, donttouchmethere said:

Mods that help with calming:

New "Peril" mod that replaces half of DiD makes some grand claims about its calming abilities.

[thefakebobdole]

After Sexlab completes an animation I get the magic/bikini curse visual and audio effects. The one that plays when the curse is applied.

 

Troubleshooting wise... this occurs whether I'm currently cursed or not. I'm playing with the collared magic curse and bikini armor disabled. It kinda feels like its playing when my willpower drops, because the notification happens the same time as the effects. Debuffs don't seem effected though.

 

I really love the mod, the hardwork shows!

[Monoman1]

Oh jumping jesus. Here we go

12 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

If wolves can't bite your arms while you're standing, they certainly should be able to if you have no legs and are crawling. And why trolls are prevented from performing arm removal is puzzling in itself. It seems extremely arbitrary.

By extreme I didn't mean that I meant it's kind of nasty. I mean you're already out of the fight. To keep hacking your limbs off is a bit cruel. And trolls can definitely rip your arms off. I've had it happen many a time. Usually they send me flying at the same time. 

12 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

On the second point, whether or not you can sneak while crawling is a choice, not a requirement.

It depends on what you choose to implement.

Yes true enough. I'm just saying it would be nice if a change in stance was reflected by a change in animation. But true enough it's not required. I'm not sure if sneaking is blocked in SLS or amp framework. I'd have to check. Side note: popping the players hands while wearing an armbinder via the amp framework would disappear (I think) your ghost hands that you get with magic effects/overlays still being visible. I'd like to see if that's something useful I could add to amp framework. 

12 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

A single lost hand leads to a lost fight, that leads to days of enslavement,

Not necessarily. I've often won a fight (or successfully fled) after losing a hand. But yes potentially. 

10 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Or, you play a mage-build ... you're going to get amputated a lot ... this was a big problem in Wounds too ... it privileged heavy tanks enormously and made stealth archer a much better option than destruction mage.

Because tanks are just that. They take hits. Mages by traditional rpg tropes are not supposed to get smashed with warhammers to the face. When's the last time you power attacked a mage with a two hander and didn't crumple him like a an accordion. They're supposed to be glass cannons. You're not excepted from the rules. 

12 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

but there are few ways to tune the ease of healing, other than peppering your world with non-aggressive trolls, which is a very strange mechanism for tuning a feature.

I'm open to solutions. Potions of troll cum for alchemy vendors? Should be moderately expensive/rare. Priest heal cost + 50% maybe. Drinking provides the usual addiction gains etc as an offset. 

12 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Amputation frequency adjustment is non-intuitively non-linear.

I don't believe it is. % reduction per armor points. But it's probably capped at something like 600 armor points. I'd have to check. 

12 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

or remote location that might, just might, have a troll present.

Your options are going to get even thinner if I add 'creature corruptions gating of creature fondling'. See. Nothings ever simple

12 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Can't drink cum if gagged, but SLS likes to add gags to cripples.

SLS does like to add gags to cripples. Ring gags. So you can still do the deed. Plus SLS doesn't/can't block the struggling out or unlocking of gags anyway so....

10 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

no hits from behind,

 

10 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

no criticals...

The two of these are not considered afair. 

Only power attack + your weapon selection (default two handers) + damage threshold pass + armor check pass. That's it. 

In fact the script only processes one hit at a time so if you get hit with a normal attack and then a power attack in quick succession the power attack will probably be ignored completely while the script is processing the normal attack. 

10 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Let's say my amputation chance is 90% per hit.

And let's say I take five hits in a fight.

Ok so I know I keep shoving this down your throat but I haven't played vanilla skyrim in years. Requiem is vanilla to me. From what I remember of vanilla skyrim combat it's a bit of a whackaton. Whack the other guy more than you get whacked and you'll be fine. Blocking is superficial and optional really. 

Now as a mage character that's wearing no armor and hasn't cast mage armor (I'm guessing from your 90% per hit) you really shouldn't be taking 5 normal hits. Not to talk about 5 power attacks. Power attacks are slow and you can usually spot them coming from a mile away. With the exception of creatures where it's not as telegraphed. 

And I don't think you'd normally even survive 5 power attacks in vanilla skyrim as a squishy mage? 

10 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

nd the value that's determining the outcome is predominantly "number of eligible hits taken".

Yes! Skill based combat. I like it. Not getting hit is generally the aim

I highly recommend:

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/73921 and

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/20923?tab=files or there was some combat overhaul mod that came out recentlyish that I wanted to check out but never did. Might be a good option too. 

10 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

If you play Requiem style - you rarely take hits - hits are very bad, but you have more chance to avoid them,

How so? I don't believe this is true. 

10 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

One way to solve the uncontrollable chance is to totally cheat; to count fights and skew the amputation chance in each subsequent fight based on an expected number of amputations per fight where you got hit, etc.

Ugh. I don't think this sounds appealing at all tbh. I like the current skill based outcomes. Letting the script decide 'Oh hi. Time to get amputated now' doesn't sound fair at all to me. If I do well then I should be rewarded. If I fuck something up then I just have to put up my hand (if I still have one) and say I fucked up. 

10 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

We calculate the fraction of player health lost in a hit, then raise to a power, and scale by the player's configured percentage.

?

Ugh math. Too early. But yea an alternate method of calculating amps from percentage health lost will probably appeal to some people. For me personally this system wouldn't be a whole lot different from what I have now. 1 power attack is going to take most of my life (that's assuming I even survive the hit at all) = amp.

 

And I have to wonder is this system even all that different from the current system. I mean a power attack is going to take a good chunk of your life even in vanilla = amp. If you tank up then you're probably never going to get amped. Sounds almost the exact same to me. 

 

[Monoman1]

4 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I didn't write anything about the flip-side of amputation, which is recovery.

 

Unlike the actual amputations, which would benefit (perhaps) from some relatively well bounded tweaks to the amputation chance calculation for a given hit, recovery is a bit more of an open-ended problem.

 

It would be neat if your DF could somehow help you out when you have amputation problems.

Or take advantage.

 

"I think losing your arms was the best thing that could happen. Now you can be my pet full-time. Isn't that wonderful?"

"This plug-gag will stop you asking any pesky priests for a cure, or sucking on any nasty troll-cocks."

"Don't worry, I'll make sure you get a regular diet of horse cum and lactacid. You won't starve."

 

Probably a bit of a nasty outcome...

 

Screen fades to black.

Fades back.

Close up on the PC, naked, covered in cum and boobs inflated so each one is bigger than the rest of her body.

Quest message comes up: SKYRIM - FAILED.

Game over.

   

Sounds awesome. When will we get it?

Or you could offer the player a deal after waking up covered in cum, with inflated breasts. She's surely accept anything really. Or sell you to a farm if you don't accept. 

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, Monoman1 said:

Sounds awesome. When will we get it?

Never?

Sure, nice idea, but if amputation ended your game, you'd probably disable one of the features in that chain.

 

What I'm really thinking of is the follower offering you a somewhat reasonable deal for help getting your arms back without having to walk to the nearest troll/priest.

 

PC instigates the dialog:

 

"Help! I can't use my arms and I'm bleeding!"

>"A tragedy... You can't even collect my loot like that. I might have something that can help."

>> "Yes. Anything... Please help."

>> "That sounds fishy. I'll just keep bleeding from my stumps."

 

Assuming the PC agrees:

"OK. It's a deal."

"Here, drink this. It will heal your arms."

<You gain a random deal>

 

Top left: Rancid Troll Semen Potion was equipped.

PC doubles up in pain. Repeatedly emits sound of agony.

Various interesting effects result.

 

[Lupine00]

2 hours ago, Monoman1 said:

Ugh math. Too early. But yea an alternate method of calculating amps from percentage health lost will probably appeal to some people. For me personally this system wouldn't be a whole lot different from what I have now. 1 power attack is going to take most of my life (that's assuming I even survive the hit at all) = amp.

 

And I have to wonder is this system even all that different from the current system. I mean a power attack is going to take a good chunk of your life even in vanilla = amp. If you tank up then you're probably never going to get amped. Sounds almost the exact same to me. 

 

Not at all similar. You are looking in the wrong place for the difference.

 

Though the curve could downgrade a 90% health loss to 70%, the real key is the application of the player's percentage scale value in a more predictable and linear way.

You could easily get a 35% health hit from a non-power-attack. That would be a flat zero chance if you only allow power-attacks. You can't just look at it from the perspective of reduction. It's not just what is taken away, it's what is added.

Consider, the hit that is sampled in that 10 second window could be any of the hits that occur (or no hits, if there are none), it might not be the power attack.

I didn't bring up the topic of how we sample fairly, well I hinted at it, but that's a secondary topic.

 

The non-linearity that you have now proceeds from the complex statistics of contingent events. It doesn't behave in a predictable way, it's a branching path, amenable neither to analysis nor intuition except in reductio absurdium cases.

The alternate method replaces complex contingent events with a very simple mechanism: you take a hit, it has a chance, or it's on cooldown.

 

The difference is not how many amputations you suffer - that is set by the player when they dial in the percentage scale value - it's in how predictably that scale works.

As I demonstrated, the value set in SLS now does not do what it looks like it might do. Don't confuse your understanding of it (as the author) with that of the user.

 

Also, this removes the armor adjustment slider, which is basically setting a pivot point of no amputation vs lots of amputation.

It does that. Try testing it with different armor values...

It's a confusing slider that's very hard for the player to get intuitive results from. I've tried, and failed.

I either gets loads of amputations, or almost none (which feels a lot like none).

 

The more sliders the PC has to mess with, the less chance they can get what they want, you've squared the permutations they have to try, just by adding another slider.

Having only one slider is actually more useful because the results are easier to understand.

 

 

Also, consider this rule: it's extremely hard to set "rare event" probabilities by trial and error; you don't see events often enough.

 

Because of this, the player has to be able to trust the slider, and currently, they cannot.

In my model, the player percentage slider does something a lot closer to what the user expects than the existing one.

It's not completely ideal, as there are still multiple samples possible per-fight.

So it's still an approximation, but a lot better than before, where you're multiplying contingent probabilities together to get values that from a player point-of-view might as well be a switch or branching tree, not a slider.

 

But the only way to really get a perfect, dependable result is to cheat, which you don't like, or don't like it the way you understood it, which might not be what I meant by it.

 

If we measure over time the average number of hits the player takes in a fight, we can adjust the log scale on the slider to get fair results.

The player could cheat and skew it on purpose, but then they're only cheating themselves; they could just have set the slider differently.

Is that cheating? It's using real values instead of guessed values. It's more genuine.

 

 

But the root problem here is you read my post as if it were adversarial, then defended against it, summoning up reasons why it was wrong.

On the internet, when attacking anything resembling natural, readable language, that is always possible, but it's not productive.

 

Some of those defenses, based on words rather than ideas, weren't applicable, others were basically thinly disguised Requiem snobbery that read like "I don't care about your whackathon", and then you even suggested that in Requiem you don't have more capability to avoid hits, which contradicts the whackathon position. It's adversarial.

 

 

It's really, really very hard to get across a nuanced argument, when the other person doesn't have the same things in their head to start with. It takes time to establish that common information.

 

Instead of thinking "why is this criticism of my system wrong?" What happens, if you read it sensibly, and try and understand where it's right?

Or at least ask questions about the parts that seem wrong to you - dig deeper - instead of just driving a truck over them util they're flattened on the tarmac.

 

 

e.g.

You pick on points and ascribe meanings to them that I don't intend... 

2 hours ago, Monoman1 said:

14 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

A single lost hand leads to a lost fight, that leads to days of enslavement,

Not necessarily. I've often won a fight (or successfully fled) after losing a hand. But yes potentially. 

That wasn't a statement about all fights. Why would it be? It's an example of a common scenario.

 

Of course losing a hand doesn't mean a certainty of a lost fight. Could I really mean that for ALL fights? Why pick on it then? It's a "straw man". You say something true, at the cost of discarding the intent of the text and keeping only a single interpretation, which is not a naturalistic one. A certain modder uses that technique for almost every single discussion of mod features. It simply blocks discourse and leads to arguments where the other party can't put across any fresh information because they have to spend all their time defending against absurdist interpretations. It is, effectively, a silencing technique.

 

 

Similarly with unblocked attacks and attacks from behind. SLS may not consider them, but Skyrim does.

If you're jumped on by a sabrecat, from behind, you will (probably) be power-attacked as an opener.

That's its combat style or something like that? It probably opens with a power attack from the front too, but if it's coming from behind it will be always be unblocked, and it will certainly hit you. It turns a "might be hit with a power attack" into an "always hit with a power attack".

(And of course I don't really mean always. Just everyday always. Like "you always want another coffee." Though I shouldn't have to say this.)

 

Are we sure blocking isn't relevant? It seems like it matters. You might be thinking that - thinking of using it as a solution. I don't know, which is why I say something about it. Or it might be that blocking has unintended consequences (I'll get to this later).

 

Currently, something a bit odd happens with blocked attacks. I have been amputated in heavy armor while blocking a disproportionately high number of times, so without more data, I'm inclined to suspect it's relevant to talk about it. I think I know why...

 

 

Another example is here:

 

2 hours ago, Monoman1 said:

14 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

A single lost hand leads to a lost fight, that leads to days of enslavement,

Not necessarily. I've often won a fight (or successfully fled) after losing a hand. But yes potentially. 

It's like you're channeling with this one... it is an archetypal straw man argument, based on what looks (superficially) like a misreading of natural language that require some real effort.

 

Am I suggesting that mages shouldn't take more amputations? Of course I'm not, you know this, because it's absurd that I'd think that. And later on I explain how they will continue to take more amputations. But what I was implying was that, currently, there is a large set of configurations where amputation is extremely likely for a mage, and disproportionately less likely for a tank. The armor penalty should at least have some kind of fair bounding on it that is predictable. It's currently not predictable (or even necessary). If you don't see why that matters, think about how amputation has changed the stakes.

 

Should I really have to phrase my entire post like that? You wouldn't even read it.

 

 

Whether or not it's realistic (which of course none of this is, ever), it's (potentially) incredibly unplayable.

 

However vulnerable a vanilla Skyrim mage might be compared to a tank, they are not so disproportionately vulnerable as with the SLS amputation armor mechanic.

 

What you've added is a multiplier on the tank effect that (potentially) scales it out of playability. Unless you don't use armor modifiers at all ... but the problem is that "simulation thinking" leads to not doing that. People think "armor ... yeah ... makes sense" and they twiddle that slider and get results they never anticipated. So then they have to twiddle again, and again, and again, and again... Never questioning the logic of keeping that armor simulation because it's "realistic".

 

Is the problem here that you didn't understand my writing?

Or didn't try to understand it, because you were too busy defending?

What's to defend here? Your ability to produce perfect game-play, first try, every try, in Skyrim mods?

If you could ever do that you're a god, and we'd probably all melt like Nazis from Raiders of the Lost Arc when first installing SLS.

 

It's only if you hold yourself up to impossibly high standards that there's any failure here.

 

 

I've made my points. It took an absurdly long time to write them out.

Tables of scaled values don't type themselves.

There is an argument about predictable outcomes you're not really "getting".

If you don't want to hear it, better to just ignore it rather than waste effort shooting it all down, then we both get to cut our losses.

 

 

It's hard enough to convey this information without fighting over every single word like there are points to be scored.

 

Even the initial points on contingency are simplifications. If we had to consider all the conditions in the real game it would take forever to discuss anything.

The key is to focus on the relevant matters. Like how privileging power attacks results in enemies with combat styles that spam them being especially prone to causing amputation, sometimes in ways that are counter intuitive.

 

...or enemies that were designed to counter blocks with power attacks making blocking a liability instead of a useful learned skill...

If you're better off not blocking, does that improve combat?

 

There's a whole lot I assumed you had intuited before I said any of this, at least give me credit for some grasp of how combat works, and that I don't mean patently absurd things, like losing a hand is 100% causally related to enslavement.

 

 

I'm trying to improve the tools available to reason about outcomes in amputation. It requires establishing necessary assumptions and language. In the process I also have to learn things, but nobody learns anything if it's adversarial, except how to win at the internet   

 

 

I'm in a position where now I regret the absurd effort I put into this, when I should have shut the fuck up, not even read this stuff and got on with typing deal dialogs into the CK or the actual real-world work I'm probably subconsciously avoiding.

[TheMrWick]

There a way to make "load" sizes take reference from FHU values if its installed? Or does it already take FHU's goto inflations into account.

[Monoman1]

Someone's in a grumpy mood. Look I've always said I AM NOT GOOD AT MATH. Any time I read math stuff my eyes glaze over. So your point about not reading your posts is somewhat fair but a little unkind. I read everything except delving into the math (because that's not easy for me and takes multiples of the time it takes you)

 

Here is the current formula. It's pretty straight forward and by default it is NOT designed around requiem. Because heavy armor in requiem is bumped up by a multiple of 4 or 5 (something like that) of vanilla. So the slider would have to be set much lower by default. 

 

Remember. Must be a power attack. And must not have been blocked. Any thoughts about blocking not preventing amps would have to be attributed to script lag - not a whole lot I can do about that. But attacks are proced one at a time and any attacks during that time are ignored to try to avoid stacks etc. 

If abPowerAttack && !abHitBlocked && !abBashAttack
		If Amp.IsDismemberWeapon(akSource, akAggressor as Actor)

 

(DismemberChance - ((PlayerArmor / 10.0) * DismemberArmorBonus))

 

DismemberChance = the base chance of being dismembered (defualt 90%)

PlayerArmor = Player.GetAv DamageResist

DismemberArmorBonus = that slider that you hate

 

SO. Unarmored at default settings:

90.0 - ((0.0 /10.0) * 5.0) = 90% chance of getting dismembered on power attack

 

Fur armor (no shield) - 50 points

90 - ((50.0 / 10.0) * 5.0) = 65% chance of getting dismembered on power attack

 

Iron armor - 80 points

90 - ((80.0 / 10.0) * 5.0) = 50% chance of getting dismembered on power attack

 

Glass 103 points:

90 - ((103.0 / 10.0) * 5.0) = 38.5% chance of getting dismembered on power attack

 

Daedric 144 points:

90 - ((144.0 / 10.0) * 5.0) = 18% chance of getting dismembered on power attack

 

So you see. Even fully armored daedric tanks are not immune from amps. I don't know how you got that impression. Perhaps the RNG gods have been unkind. 

 

Re getting ambushed from behind. Sure it's a problem. But it IS your fault for not being aware. Don't know how many times I've been auto-running and gotten smashed by a sabre cat while looking at my phone but it's my fault for not paying attention. 

 

[Lupine00]

I edited the post to clean up a few things, but I didn't say blocks were stopping amputation.

I said blocks are causing amputation, because some enemies react to them with power-attacks, and because you are blocking, you take the hit rather than trying to avoid it.

Then you go to bash and stop their attack chain, but you have no left arm.

 

49 minutes ago, Monoman1 said:

 

So you see. Even fully armored daedric tanks are not immune from amps. I don't know how you got that impression. Perhaps the RNG gods have been unkind. 

This is multiplied by all the other factors. If you calculate it as if the only attacks that exist are power attacks, it works perfectly, but the point is that power attacks aren't like that, nor are they evenly distributed among enemy types, or fight phases.

 

It's also multiplied by itself. The chance of getting an amputation isn't calculated from a single power attack, it's calculated from all the power attacks up to the point that you got an amputation.

 

 

Let me put it another way.

We are flipping coins. What is the chance of heads? 50%?

 

So, we flip coins, how many must we flip to get a head?

 

Let's say we flip five coins, and we only got tails every time...

Now we flip again. What's the chance of a head? 50% ... easy ... but ... the chance of not getting a head for six coins was still

0.5 x 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.5 

 

So when you say the chance of our poor mage taking an amputation is a "fair" 90% ...

 

... flip it around, what is the chance of her not taking one after X hits?

 

What is the chance for the tank at 18%?

 

 

Do all those multiplications for different numbers of attacks, put them in a table (of an automated table that does the work for you - Excel for example).

Now do the same thing with them scaled by the player's chance slider at different settings. (I think you call this base chance).

 

None of the resulting numbers are remotely obvious, and because you apply the player's scaling slider on each individual hit, it has far more impact than intended at one end of the scale, and almost none at the other.

 

 

Now the issue of only one power attack a combat ... it doesn't matter how many combats there are, just the number of candidate hits.

 

But if we choose a way of selecting candidate hits that is inherently uneven (such as only considering power attacks) we will get spiky and uneven results multiplied by those surprising numbers from before.

 

In vanilla (at least) a player has almost no chance to dodge a power attack from a fast-moving animal. The only way to avoid taking a first-rush power attack from them is to kill them at range, which doesn't work well if there are multiple attackers, or a stupid follower who gets in the way but doesn't draw aggro, or the mob is a bear with too many hit points to one-shot. And our one-shotting mage has to hit with firebolt, which is considerably harder to do than hitting with a war-hammer.

 

Hitting animals at range is often rather hard, as they insta-side-step. And yes, you can tweak that, but you can't know what the player has set up. That takes us back to assuming combat can only work one way inevitably being wrong.

 

The model has to work reasonably well for all sensible cases.

 

A fair sampling of candidate hits would produce much more predictable results ... over time.

 

 

Your hit processing mechanism is also introducing additional unfairness. A player with a faster computer has more chances to be amputated, assuming there are multiple power attacks coming in, than a player with a slow one. Probably more relevant, a player with few laggy scripts has a lot less chances.

 

 

Introducing a natural (longish) cooldown, evens out those script differences.

Not privileging power attacks, but only considering the damage evens out some other "unfairness".

 

 

But the goal here is fair (purely random) sampling of hits, such that we can exclude the impact of the weird externalities coming from whether an enemy power attacks, or whether blocking means you (appear) to get hit more in this model, etc.

 

 

You still have those stacking probabilities, but the probabilities themselves are more even, because we are using a moderating curve to adjust a chance based on damage. It also gives high hit point characters more resistance to amputation, which is not a bad outcome.

 

 

A final point. I don't know where the value 144 for daedric came from. Is that just from the actual worn body piece?

I always assumed it was using the final capped rating.

 

Which is (according to the wiki) calculated like this:

• Item Armor rating = CEILING[ (base armor rating + item quality) × (1 + 0.4 × (skill + skill effect)/100) ] × (1 + unison perk^† ) × (1 + Matching Set) × (1 + armor perk^‡)
• Shield rating = CEILING[ (base shield rating + item quality) × (1 + 0.4 × (skill + skill effect)/100) ] × (1 + unison perk^† ) × (1 + Matching Set)
• Displayed armor rating = SUM(item armor rating) + shield rating + armor effects

I think the wiki suggests a value of 662 for dragonscale at max skill.

I see values well above 144 from light armor at mid-levels, and would expect to hit the cap without much trouble wearing heavy at higher levels.

 

The armor curve is "hyperbolic", increasing dramatically at the far end of the scale. It's kind of bad really, which is why effective mitigation is capped. But I'm quite sure Requiem does something else.

[donttouchmethere]

5 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

New "Peril" mod that replaces half of DiD makes some grand claims about its calming abilities.

I'm skeptical (possibly wrongfully of course)

But I'm also a NDUN addict:

Spoiler

The NDUN ZAP furniture defeat outcome is hard to top in combination with NDUN harmless feature + SLS ZAP support and DFC willpower drain.

My poor PC - with "overpowered" equipment (it's waterproof!) - but LVL1 after leaving LAL via shipwreck and being overconfident with the first chosen targets:

 

 

Hey, don't leave me here, or better do, stupid enemy plus faction failure! ?

 

Just hanging around, nothing to see here

 

Getting late

why ain't I freezing to death? (SLS SS++ connection ftw)

 

Rescue at last!

Kind of ?

Warmbodies saves the day... err... night

(she had to teleport, seems my PC ended up in an area of broken nav-mesh)

goes also well with STA/SLS slap that ass feature if in furniture ?

 

That's also the times I hope that SLS "call for help" feature would have a bigger range or would effect more factions.