MAKE A NEW RULE

[Hakufu1021]

Site staff seriously need to make a new rule for this forum. The rule needs to be as follows, "any mods that are voluntarily uploaded to this forum, WILL remain on this forum, no matter what grievances may occur. Creator shall assume ALL ownership otherwise."

 

What does this mean? Basically, if a mod get's uploaded to this forum, the creator is not allowed to delete the mod on this forum. If they do, it will be restored as long as it complies with site rules. Other then this caveat, the creator of the mod retains full ownership. Meaning they can upload it elsewhere, charge for it, etc. LL ONLY retains ownership so far as to guarantee no disruption of it's community. (A modder getting pissed and nuking mods on MULTIPLE topics)

 

Why should this rule be created? Quite frankly for the convenience of those of us who help contribute to this forum and the constant influx of new users who have to deal with quite frankly, bullshit ass politics they had absolutely no part in. This rule makes it easier for the newcomers, and allows us contributors to guarantee a quality experience for said new users. It will also make it easier for contributors to create summary posts for any game remotely popular and guarantee the mods contributed are active and available.

 

I don't know how many times a single creator with skill has turned multiple game threads into a cluster because he/she felt insulted and decided to pull their mods. Whether that was due to a language barrier and machine translation errors (seems to be the most prevalent) or whatever other reason.

 

The fact is, one person has the power to completely screw up the flow of an entire thread. All due to a simple misunderstanding. Then the contributors like myself, have to spend hours trying to undo the cluster as typically the thread sees an influx of new users due to steam sales.

 

It's getting infuriating.  Tired of investing my time to help anyone who needs it only for a simple damn misunderstanding to absolutely blow up the thread. This is not how a community should be run. PLEASE for the love of god, add a copyright claim. After all, pretty much ANY other content driven site or platform with money behind it has a similar clause. Facebook, Twitter, Patreon, et all. All of em have a clause that essentially states, you use our services, we own your creations. Take that clause and make it palpable to creators while protecting the community. Again, this site only retains copyright so far as it means to be able to legally host it no matter what. Even if said creator "revokes" permission due to some childish misunderstanding, or their chosen machine translator decides to choose violence that day.

 

It's getting ridiculous. Too many egos getting hurt lately over absolute bullpucky.

 

Personally why I always open source my stuff. If I post ANYTHING here, it's free for anyone to reproduce, distribute, etc as long as I'm credited, and if it's resold, I'm cut in on the profits. Removes the damn ego. Gives the power to the community. The community decides the size of my ego and the quality of my work. Not my own foolish human behavior. I contribute something of value? I'm rewarded with praise.  My guide is used, my mod sees constant downloads. I screw the pooch, my work fades into obscurity and is criticized to no end. Giving me ways to improve. But considering I relinquish ownership, I lose all right to lord over my creations. This needs to be a default rule with an opt out. Not a voluntary opt in. Meaning if you opt out, you cannot upload your creations. It's that simple. The TOS could EASILY be used to enforce this.

 

Again, I see this as  TOS change. Not a rule change. It's a simple change. Creators are either onboard or not. And considering it just ensures a certain health of the community, any creator who is anything but egotistical, won't mind it. As they are ONLY relinquishing their copyright on this forum and only for distribution purposes and with many open source licenses they aren't even giving up their creator rights. There's PLENTY of open source licenses that cover this very issue. It's time this forum adopts one. Hell it's time all "free" modding sites adopt these licenses.

Edited March 30, 2023 by Hakufu1021

[travelmedic]

A rule just like that caused a mass exodus of creators off of Nexus a year or so ago - basically Nexus said that they owned the rights to everyone else's work.

 

I agree that some people getting pissed off and deleting their mods is extremely frustrating, but I don't think that LL assuming ownership is the answer.  However, with the amount of stupid, inane, repetitive questions or demands that get asked or made here, I can understand why it's easy for mod authors to get pissed off.  Just think  of how many low-effort, low-IQ posters submitted a gazillion Wicked Whims bug reports after the recent big Sims 4 update.  I would rather see the people causing the problems get a "time out" from posting, or even hit with the ban hammer in extreme cases, but that would require a small army of full time moderators I think.

[KoolHndLuke]

1 hour ago, travelmedic said:

A rule just like that caused a mass exodus of creators off of Nexus a year or so ago - basically Nexus said that they owned the rights to everyone else's work.

Some of which ran to sites like Schaken mods apparently and starting charging. The thing about a rule like this is that it usually just pisses creators off if they feel they've been pretty fair. I mean..... the site don't exist without contributors- period.

 

 

Edited March 30, 2023 by KoolHndLuke

[Grey Cloud]

If a mod author pulls their mod then it will not affect any new users.

If a user has already downloaded the mod then it will not matter if the mod is still on LL or not.

If an author has to leave the mod on LL it will just end up abandoned and depending on the game involved will perhaps become unusable over time due to game updates and whatnot.

 

Concerning my last point there are already far too many obsolete mods here on LL. Skyrim LE and CK3 are examples of this.

[Mr. Otaku]

But that's the same thing Nexus did and lots of people didn't take it well. I understand the mindset behind it but not allowing creators to delete files for any reason is just not a good look and only sours the situation. I don't even think LL can handle archiving that much stuff anyway lol.

[LongDukDong]

 

I'm sorry.  I cannot abide by any rule that states that the mod creator relinquishes his right to the ownership, permissions or availability of his or her work.  The phrase found in many media contents of "All Rights Reserved" is a copyright reminder (and deterrent) that the owner has the rights of distribution, and it cannot be used without his/her permission.  For the unaware, your work is already protected under the copyright act the moment it was created, whether in a published or unpublished fashion. However, registering it adds to the protection for litigation purposes.

 

Now I am not one who plans to delete my content. In fact, I have re-uploaded content where original links have died... this while checking that the original content was permitted for re-posting. However, I have indeed left a forum years ago due to unfair practices which led an exodus of sorts, the other site wishing to monetize works not their own.  And yes, I did pull my works in that instance as did others. 

 

It is our right as the creators.  And the imposing of such a rule would instead cause harm to the community and reduce the number of those willing to submit content under those terms and conditions.

[DoctaSax]

I don't see it happening, see rule 1.

 

[Splendor Solis]

I can see where you're coming from. There are some cases, such as Arthmoor's, where someone's mod becomes foundational to a lot of other people's work and if that mod author decides to pull their mod or put it behind a paywall, it can cause real damage to the community. The problem is that just because the community needs to be protected doesn't mean it's appropriate to start infringing on a modder's control over their own mod. Most people heavily prefer the feeling of being in control, and if you start taking that away, there's nothing stopping them from using another platform. LL has earned a lot of good will over the years and it doesn't really have the leverage to make these sorts of power-moves like Nexus does.

 

That said, you could still make it optional. Add some checkbox saying you want LL to archive your mod. A lot of people would be willing to agree to that already, but potentially there could be other incentives like the ability to advertise your patreon. Could call it something like "Community Supported" to emphasize the rights to greater monetization over it being archived. The key would be to make it wholly optional and to make sure modder's get more than they give if they agree to it. Though, I don't think LL has had enough problems with this to make it worth the effort.

[Ijakor2]

Maybe there should be a new forum rule.

 

Like this here:

 

Use your head first before  posting and respect the rights of others ( so that your rights are respected as well ).

[Gukahn]

10 minutes ago, Ijakor2 said:

Maybe there should be a new forum rule.

 

Like this here:

 

Use your head first before  posting and respect the rights of others ( so that your rights are respected as well ).

How I wish this rule would apply to the real world.. 

[LongDukDong]

12 minutes ago, Ijakor2 said:

Use your head first before  posting and respect the rights of others ( so that your rights are respected as well ).

 

Ah, that's Rule #2 by Ashal in the RULES thread itself.

Quote

Don't be a jerk. Seriously, does this really need to be said?

 

[Heroine HoneyCrotch]

On 3/30/2023 at 3:18 AM, Hakufu1021 said:

make a new rule

 

How about no more riding passenger in a vehicle while sitting in what has to be the most uncomfortable position so you can have your ugly stupid looking bare feet waggling about on the fucking dash

[Alessia Wellington]

14 minutes ago, Heroine HoneyCrotch said:

How about no more riding passenger in a vehicle while sitting in what has to be the most uncomfortable position so you can have your ugly stupid looking bare feet waggling about on the fucking dash

 

You're cute when you're angry.

[Grey Cloud]

There should be a rule against asking for more rules.

[Kaldor Draigo]

i like this rule

[MrFuturehope]

On 3/30/2023 at 11:49 AM, KoolHndLuke said:

Some of which ran to sites like Schaken mods apparently and starting charging. The thing about a rule like this is that it usually just pisses creators off if they feel they've been pretty fair. I mean..... the site don't exist without contributors- period.

 

I didn't even know about that website you mentioned there, so I just checked it out and personally I don't see too many mods that would be worth it and those that seem to be worth it are actually those mods previous pulled from elsewhere, but guess what. I found many of reuploaded mods, but only one was from the actual original author, the rest were reuploads from fans. Now if it's true that uploaders can earn money on that website (if that's what you mean by them starting charging), then how fair would it be for them to charge for a mod they didn't even create? In conclusion, to me it looks like these "safe haven" websites people ran to are actually doing more damage to the original authors than the websites they originally pulled their mods from. Some may not be happy about the rules here at Lovers Lab, but I think that in the end this website is still far friendlier to original authors than those other websites.

[Hakufu1021]

On 3/30/2023 at 4:18 AM, travelmedic said:

A rule just like that caused a mass exodus of creators off of Nexus a year or so ago - basically Nexus said that they owned the rights to everyone else's work.

 

I agree that some people getting pissed off and deleting their mods is extremely frustrating, but I don't think that LL assuming ownership is the answer.  However, with the amount of stupid, inane, repetitive questions or demands that get asked or made here, I can understand why it's easy for mod authors to get pissed off.  Just think  of how many low-effort, low-IQ posters submitted a gazillion Wicked Whims bug reports after the recent big Sims 4 update.  I would rather see the people causing the problems get a "time out" from posting, or even hit with the ban hammer in extreme cases, but that would require a small army of full time moderators I think.

First - sorry to the staff due to my multi-post. I'm a dumbass. I deserve any lashing you doll out.

 

See the problem with this is, we aren't talking about legit arguments or a person getting overwhelmed with demands or repetitive questions. The last exodus by a mod creator was due to something absolutely fucking inane. Talking his translator may have been wrong type of issue. Said creator has had a problem in the past with completely misinterpretating stuff due to machine error. I won't name drop him simply because I'm trying to get his mods without too much hassle. (I know I'm being selfish. But I'm also trying to work out a deal to benefit the forum. But I'm pretty sure I got told to screw off politely as he has yet to take me up on his offer and I offered payment.)

 

But I'll be frank, his reasoning for literally gutting threads is entirely due to machine error. If you look on the adult forum, you can find said creator. He frequented Bullet Girl Phantasia, senran kagura peach beach splash, senran kagura Estival Versus, etc. Again, won't name drop but look up those topics in the adult forum and you'll know who I'm refrencing. He has absolutely gutted multiple game topics simply because he took mild offense. Not at anything most people would, in any country. but something his machine translation exposed to him. The evidence is in the pudding. Plus the fact my 5 years old daughter has been succumbed to more abuse then he was and shook it off with no ill effect. His "catalyst" was an innocent freaking comment. No degradation, hell it was barely criticism, just normal forum talk on mods. (Or the fact he chose not to report said comment but yank his mods, tells you how serious it was.)

 

Someone getting offended because of a language barrier can absolutely gut the community. It has, and it should be solved. He was a VERY talented modder and his misunderstanding with folks, should not destroy or undermine the forum/community at large.

 

The issue facing individuals such as this can't be solved by censoring, timing out, or filtering other people's comments. As it's a language barrier. A barrier someone with different cultural background to our own, can result in a huge catastrophe.

 

That is the problem. We are a multicultural forum with an emphasis on western culture. So someone from another culture, simply due to a fucking machine error, could get pissed off and mass delete their mods. Gutting topics.

 

The rule I'm proposing : This rule would prevent that. This rule is a very simple one. It shouldn't be an issue. You upload something here, it stays here. You can't delete it. It's that simple. You aren't giving up ownership, you aren't even giving up your right to sell your creation. Nor is this community taking ownership of said creation, BESIDES you are not allowed to delete it.It's simply stating that if you upload something here, for free, you can't delete it. That's it. That's the goal with this rule. Not screwing over creators, but protecting this community.

 

The creator has all say for his/her creation anywhere else. You simply cannot delete your creation here once it's uploaded. That is the extent this rule goes. Deletion is removed. Nothing else. And if it isn't removed, moderators are allowed to audit deleted files, and no matter how the creator feels, if a mod is deleted, it will be restored. (Prevents issues with modders screwing up during first upload, deleting the file, and then correcting it.)

Edited April 1, 2023 by Hakufu1021

[Hakufu1021]

On 3/30/2023 at 5:53 AM, Grey Cloud said:

If a mod author pulls their mod then it will not affect any new users.

If a user has already downloaded the mod then it will not matter if the mod is still on LL or not.

If an author has to leave the mod on LL it will just end up abandoned and depending on the game involved will perhaps become unusable over time due to game updates and whatnot.

 

Concerning my last point there are already far too many obsolete mods here on LL. Skyrim LE and CK3 are examples of this.

I fundamentally disagree with your first point. As it already has. I alluded to it in my prior post. I'm not saying this out of nowhere. Check the topics of Bullet Girl Phantasia, the Senran Kagura Series, Fatal Frame series, etc. There's a prominent creator who was proficient with 3dmigoto that just mass deleted his mods. Hence me making this topic. He created a shit show and trust me, new users are already wondering wtf happened and asking for help. This topic is a direct consequence of said creators actions. Not a preemptive strike.

 

I'm literally saying all this because I'm tired of picking up the pieces. I do my best to contribute to this forum. Yes, I can be an asshole. But at the end of the day, when I logon here, I look through the topics(games) I love, see if anyone needs help, and do my best to fulfill those requests. This creator, has made my job on several games I love immensely harder because of a simple misunderstanding. Hence the topic. Because I have newbies asking WTF happened. What is the current mod for X game that will work? As I don't know where to begin.

 

So instead of troubleshooting new innovations/new releases, I'm literally having to back track into years old knowledge to help. As a creator who made the process a freaking cake walk, got offended and pulled his mods. A disagreement that again, ad nauseam, can be attributed to machine error. Not an actual, legitimate grievance.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Hakufu1021

[Hakufu1021]

11 hours ago, LongDukDong said:

 

I'm sorry.  I cannot abide by any rule that states that the mod creator relinquishes his right to the ownership, permissions or availability of his or her work.  The phrase found in many media contents of "All Rights Reserved" is a copyright reminder (and deterrent) that the owner has the rights of distribution, and it cannot be used without his/her permission.  For the unaware, your work is already protected under the copyright act the moment it was created, whether in a published or unpublished fashion. However, registering it adds to the protection for litigation purposes.

 

Now I am not one who plans to delete my content. In fact, I have re-uploaded content where original links have died... this while checking that the original content was permitted for re-posting. However, I have indeed left a forum years ago due to unfair practices which led an exodus of sorts, the other site wishing to monetize works not their own.  And yes, I did pull my works in that instance as did others. 

 

It is our right as the creators.  And the imposing of such a rule would instead cause harm to the community and reduce the number of those willing to submit content under those terms and conditions.

See but there's the rub. The creator is not relinquishing ANY rights beside the ability to delete a mod once it's uploaded to this forum. That's it. This allows a self governance system. If you are made aware of the rule, you can do one of the following

 

1) Disagree with said rule and as a result, don't upload your mod to begin with.

 

2) Agree with the rule and upload the mod.

 

The creator WILL not relinquish ANY right to their work besides the ability to delete their mod. That is it. If they agree to the terms, the mod is uploaded and will remain on this forum until it goes bust, or the site staff decides to prune. But, the author can do anything they so choose on any other site. Up to and including sell their mod if they so wish. It's literally just to make sure that if a mod is uploaded. It stays on the site. NOTHING ELSE. The modder can't remove the mod no matter how they are treated.

 

This rule would guarantee distribution rights. Nothing else. If you upload, you grant distribution rights and it cannot be revoked.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Hakufu1021

[Hakufu1021]

10 hours ago, Splendor Solis said:

I can see where you're coming from. There are some cases, such as Arthmoor's, where someone's mod becomes foundational to a lot of other people's work and if that mod author decides to pull their mod or put it behind a paywall, it can cause real damage to the community. The problem is that just because the community needs to be protected doesn't mean it's appropriate to start infringing on a modder's control over their own mod. Most people heavily prefer the feeling of being in control, and if you start taking that away, there's nothing stopping them from using another platform. LL has earned a lot of good will over the years and it doesn't really have the leverage to make these sorts of power-moves like Nexus does.

 

That said, you could still make it optional. Add some checkbox saying you want LL to archive your mod. A lot of people would be willing to agree to that already, but potentially there could be other incentives like the ability to advertise your patreon. Could call it something like "Community Supported" to emphasize the rights to greater monetization over it being archived. The key would be to make it wholly optional and to make sure modder's get more than they give if they agree to it. Though, I don't think LL has had enough problems with this to make it worth the effort.

This is hands down the best solution I've seen. I appreciate the critical thinking.

 

To everyone else - I appreciate your counter arguments. I did not think this would honestly create a change. But I wanted to express my frustration, bring an issue to light, and see what the community consensus was.

 

It sucks ass modders have so much power. A simple disagreement can result in a lot of damage. Whether due to genuine malice in the disagreement, or due to cultural differences and machine error. But I felt I needed to raise this issue and make it apparent. As we honestly lost quality mods in a sub forum I love contributing to all due to a quite frankly, pathetic misunderstanding. A misunderstanding that could have easily been attributed to machine error or cultural differences. And that is truly a shame.

 

PS: I want to be absolutely clear, I'm not diminishing how valuable modders are. I ALWAYS advocate for modders. I'm just saying ego, and misunderstandings can have long lasting side effects and in that case, the power shouldn't be in the hands of the modder. UNLESS, it is warranted. A valid, credible argument? I side with the modder. But stupid asinine shit? I side with the community.

 

PPS: I apologize for the mult-post. I'm drunk and my dumbass didn't think to multiquote.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Hakufu1021

[Pamatronic]

26 minutes ago, Hakufu1021 said:

the power shouldn't be in the hands of the modder. UNLESS, it is warranted.

How fucking drunk are you right now?

Its ALWAYS warranted. Refer to the Docta:

11 hours ago, DoctaSax said:

I don't see it happening, see rule 1.

 

And just on a sidenote, your Modder in question actually told everyone why he left. It was because all the droolies who simply couldn't be bothered to read instructions and kept complaining. Apparently you didn't even bother to read that explanation either...

This might not be as apparent to some rando who doesn't create something themselves, so let me give you my perspective as a semi-successful modder on this:
I spent a lot of time on making my stuff. I do a lot of testing to ensure I don't fuck up someones savegames. I take time out of my day to upload it here, write detailed instructions on how to install/use it and which other mods might cause compatibility issues.
And after all this time spent, there will inevitably be this one Ding-Dong (or multiple) who Ignores all of this, and who will just blatantly tell you in the support thread that your mod is buggy and that you plz fix it. And I´m not gonna lie, this is INCREDIBLY infuriating. Bit of a workaround for me was to mostly shift support to my Discord server where I can just Ban the worst offenders, but if you are stuck here on the forums and have to constantly deal with that, It might grind you down.

I took a look at your threads in question, and Its REALLY bad there. Nothing but people complaining and making demands... I´m amazed he put up with this onslaught for so long.

But what I want to say with all of this is the following:

If you don't get anything out of posting here, no usefull inputs, no Ideas and no monetary compensation, why in the world would you stay here? Why the hell would you leave your work to those leeches? Sure, it might annoy them if you pull it, but that's a THEM problem. They can always learn to read and make mods themselves. the instructions to replicate your work are quite literally scattered over the thread.

You don't get to decide on what creators are allowed to do with their mods. (Unless you are Nexus, I guess)
 

[RohZima]

Yeah, make a rule that will alienate the mod authors... Nice idea ?

[RohZima]

1 hour ago, Hakufu1021 said:

...a bunch of stuff...

 

I think your points are perfectly valid, I just think you're reaching trying to find a solution when there really isn't one - force people to leave their uploads here and they will just post a link to an external download or simply leave and go to another site. All systems have problems and this is a system with problems but you can't just brutally alienate the most important group because you think it's convenient to do so. You would literally kill the modding community if you forced modders to relinquish that right.

[FauxFurry]

What, do you think you're Bill Maher?

[27X]

No one owes you anything and as a mod creator.... you can fuck right off.