Deviously Cursed Loot LE 9.0 (2021-03-09)

[Kimy]

9 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

Does that mean the SLIF patch is not allowed?

I am not sure if that's not clear enough (from DCL's license)?

 

Quote

 

- You can NOT bundle/re-distribute any parts of this mod with your own (e.g. include patched versions of DCL's scripts or ESP in your mod) as future updates might break mine, yours and other mods if you do.

 

If they ship changed versions of DCL's scripts or its ESP, no, it's not allowed. People should know it's a horrible idea to make unsanctioned patches for mods. They are basically guaranteed to break the original mod, their patch or random other stuff every single time the original mod updates. Which in DCL's case happens often enough, for I update my mod quite frequently.

[Lupine00]

32 minutes ago, Zaflis said:

Now i consider this also "required" for UNP:

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/30050

Without it you may get neck or hand seams, very distracting borders where those models connect. But that's really all there is to UNP, other is just fine tuning like eyes, teeth, different faces or sweaty body textures etc.

Whether or not you need that depends on what textures you use. It's clearly intended for Coverwomen, and probably now, more people use FSK, or Demoniac, or something from betterbecause. Though TBH, I don't know...

 

I thought Coverwomen was getting pretty ancient now, and a bit low resolution. Plus, even in 2012 it had its own anti-seam patches.

 

I don't notice seams on Demoniac 8K unless there's a problem in the Bodyslide to start with.

 

And FSK got an update back in October last year, so it's still being improved.

[Lupine00]

6 minutes ago, Kimy said:

If they ship changed versions of DCL's scripts or its ESP, no, it's not allowed.

It should be fairly evident that the only way a SLIF patch can work is to overwrite script files.

SLIF has patches for quite a number of mods.

 

Of course they go out of date. There is always troubling uncertainty whether a patch still works when a mod does an update. SLIF can be slow to track this. For example, there's still a patch for Hormones, which is against an older version, and furthermore, Hormones now has built-in SLIF support.

 

I think people installing patches are mostly well aware of possible version conflicts. The situation with ESP clashes between environment mods is a nightmare in comparison to these simple issues.

 

To prohibit it just because it might break doesn't make all that much sense.

 

I can't imagine a real user that would say: "I patched DCL and now its broken. That must be Kimy's fault, definitely not the patch."

 

 

It's a very different order of objection to prohibiting posts of forks or major variations - full mods.

 

In any case, if you want to go down that path, you probably need to shout at @qotsafan to remove the SLIF patch from the SLIF distro, and possibly incorporate it directly into DCL yourself where you can maintain it... Or if you really hate SLIF, then just the former.

[Treatedshammy]

56 minutes ago, Zaflis said:

That is the correct one. You also need to build the body in Bodyslide afterwards, and run the FNIS. Now i consider this also "required" for UNP:

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/30050

Without it you may get neck or hand seams, very distracting borders where those models connect. But that's really all there is to UNP, other is just fine tuning like eyes, teeth, different faces or sweaty body textures etc.

I will download that as well then.

 

But I did try the game with the UNP I mentioned and I ran the Bodyslide and FNIS, but there was no change. The torso/hobbledress was still invisible.

[Kimy]

4 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

It should be fairly evident that the only way a SLIF patch can work is to overwrite script files.

SLIF has patches for quite a number of mods.

 

Of course they go out of date. There is always troubling uncertainty whether a patch still works when a mod does an update. SLIF can be slow to track this. For example, there's still a patch for Hormones, which is against an older version, and furthermore, Hormones now has built-in SLIF support.

 

I think people installing patches are mostly well aware of possible version conflicts. The situation with ESP clashes between environment mods is a nightmare in comparison to these simple issues.

 

To prohibit it just because it might break doesn't make all that much sense.

 

I can't imagine a real user that would say: "I patched DCL and now its broken. That must be Kimy's fault, definitely not the patch."

 

It's a very different order of objection to prohibiting posts of forks or major variations - full mods.

 

In any case, if you want to go down that path, you probably need to shout at @qotsafan to remove the SLIF patch from the SLIF distro, and possibly incorporate it directly into DCL yourself where you can maintain it... Or if you really hate SLIF, then just the former.

I really don't want to pick another fight right now. But I guess it's clear enough that what SLIF is doing is a blatant violation of DCL's license terms, and I really, REALLY don't want to defend what I am doing against another wave of attacks. Let's just leave it at that.

 

PS: Are we taking about the same kind of oh-so technically experienced users that fail to batch-run Bodyslide on an absolutely daily basis, when the install instructions tell them in bold font to do just that?

[Zaflis]

21 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

Whether or not you need that depends on what textures you use. It's clearly intended for Coverwomen, and probably now, more people use FSK, or Demoniac, or something from betterbecause. Though TBH, I don't know...

I'm using SG Textures Renewal. And the main thing here that matters that the _sk textures are of same "type". It doesn't them hugely matter what the diffuse textures are, as long as glows are all same set. There are separate face mods that include _sk and using those can mess up the seams. One i use is Pretty Face, which gets overwritten too.

[Azengar]

2 hours ago, crazyduck said:

@Azengar: Dont get me wrong i also respect kimy and the work she do to make this mod.

I only dont like some sort of incompatiblities if this could be easily resolved , and if this would allow people more different options to play the game i dont think it would be a bad thing.

thats why i also now ask why kimy does not allow people to share patches they made for cursed loot.

 

Yes and you have all the rights to do so, but then if she doesn't want to do it she doesn't have to, these kind of things have been going on for a while and I'm sure she'd prefer to spend her energy somewhere else.

If that's so important to you nothing stops you from asking the permission to do a patch.

[crazyduck]

9 minutes ago, Azengar said:

Yes and you have all the rights to do so, but then if she doesn't want to do it she doesn't have to, these kind of things have been going on for a while and I'm sure she'd prefer to spend her energy somewhere else.

If that's so important to you nothing stops you from asking the permission to do a patch.

Azengar the problem is, also if i would ask kimy to make a patch, read some posts above about the slif patch to make it work with cursed loot.

You see what she wrote, so if i would make such a patch for myself its ok but it would stil stay the same basic issue .

 

And to be honest it makes not much sense this "no patched files" thing.  The only thing it stops is that people coudl make patches for cursed loot to change or enhance parts of it.

And this stuff about breaking cursed loot with it, thats nothing kimy need to fix or support, if i install a patch for some mod or make my own i would never say the original mod author has to fix it.

 

And to be honest its not like Modding or Cursed Loot or any other Mod is like Rocket Science, so yes i think People who want to patch the Mod could do that wihtout breaking the Mod or enhance it without breaking it.

 

And about Slif so what will we see next? Slif add Cursed Loot as Incompatible Mod? Or Cursed Loot stops working if Slif is detected? Would be so easy if someone simply allow other Modders to make Patches and leave the Support for this patches to this Modders.

 

[tuxagent7]

I am happy with what Kimy have given us with Devious Cursed Loot and enjoy each update that she has uploaded.

 

It is her mod and her vision and we should RESPECT that.

 

I find myself gratefull that i have this great mod to play with in the first place.

 

I think some users here wants everything but sometimes you cant have it all, accept it and move along

 

 

[crazyduck]

2 minutes ago, tuxagent7 said:

I am happy with what Kimy have given us with Devious Cursed Loot and enjoy each update that she has uploaded.

 

It is her mod and her vision and we should RESPECT that.

 

I find myself gratefull that i have this great mod to play with in the first place.

 

I think some users here wants everything but sometimes you cant have it all, accept it and move along

 

 

I dont want everything but i always think its a bad decision to make somethign incompatible without a real reason , and stuff like ESP Limits are not really a reason its not Kimys job to care for Peoples ESP Limits.

 

but still as i said i dont want everything but at same time this "no patches allowed" thing makes not really sense. but will see will start tomorrow making POP compatible with cursed loot again.

[stas2503]

@KimyDo not misunderstand me. Your mod is awesome, and I really like it. And I like it because it allows you to experience the thrill with your character while looting chests ... You will laugh, but it is for this that I set myself this mod ...People like me, a lot ... And they all love Cursed Loot it for the same reason...
 I am not a POP fan or any prison in Skyrim, I just love to do quests in Skyrim ... There are quests in the game where the player is often fined, for example, murder in the Dark Brotherhood, where the player is fined 1,500 gold by the plot ... I like the quest where you need to save the girls from Immersive Wenches mod, which starts with the removal of the poster in Solitude, for which the player is again fined for 1000 gold ... Yes, and there are many such quests ... Personally, it would be easier for me to give away gold than to spend prison from any mod, strongly delaying the passage of the game ... And what is the choice for me? ..
Again, you cannot sleep in your prison if a player has mods that change sleep and teleport players to other locations, for example SD Dreamworld ... Are SD now also on the list of incompatibilities?

[WaxenFigure]

On 3/20/2019 at 3:15 PM, Treatedshammy said:

So ignoring that I posted in the past because I never got it to work properly before my computer bit the dust.

 

But does anyone have the best order to install ALL the necessary mods from a blank game? (or hell a zip for everything and save a lot of time if that would work [can you tell I'm a newbie to modding]) I feel that caused a lot of problem the last time I attempted because I missed mods that I needed, and installed in the wrong order so the fix program (forgot the name) didn't catch everything it needed to do and caused problems with appearances.

Follow the instructions here (https://wiki.step-project.com/Main_Page) up to the point where they start adding the multitude of mods they recommend be added because the first part is all about getting the most stable base before adding mods.

 

[Tenri]

9 minutes ago, stas2503 said:

...

Again, you cannot sleep in your prison if a player has mods that change sleep and teleport players to other locations, for example SD Dreamworld ... Are SD now also on the list of incompatibilities?

That is a bit unfair, any mod that is capable of remove a player from a cell that the player has to stay in for a quest will break that quest, it is not exclusive to DCL or SD+ there are vanilla quests that those kinds of events can break. This kind of thing is why many mods that can teleport the player have warnings saying that they can break things when they do so.

For SD sleeping in the DCL prison, you would have to disable that part of SD or hope it doesn't activate while in the prison.

[stas2503]

15 minutes ago, Tenri said:

That is a bit unfair, any mod that is capable of remove a player from a cell that the player has to stay in for a quest will break that quest, it is not exclusive to DCL or SD+ there are vanilla quests that those kinds of events can break. This kind of thing is why many mods that can teleport the player have warnings saying that they can break things when they do so.

For SD sleeping in the DCL prison, you would have to disable that part of SD or hope it doesn't activate while in the prison.

That's the problem that I do not have SD, but there are other events, which starts the quest during sleep player ... and when my character was trying to sleep, simply increase the term of imprisonment ...

[MaikCG]

9 minutes ago, Tenri said:

you would have to disable that part of SD

And at the same time disable the mods on food? For example, I already wrote here that DCL food (once a day) is not recognized by iNeed (prison_stew missing keyword "VendorItemFood" so iNeed does not consider this an unfamiliar food and does not offer to configure). Player will simply die in jail.

 

May be generally disable all mods except DCL?

A? Did someone talk about monopolies? ?

[thedarkone1234]

 

 

 

2

37 minutes ago, MaikCG said:

May be generally disable all mods except DCL?

A? Did someone talk about monopolies? ?

Don't be unfair here. Generally, everyone in their right mind will disable any mod which might disturb the flow of a progressive mission.

 

I had to disable or really restrict DCL itself a few times when doing a dungeon with non-follower companions or when getting locked in rooms (such as that abandoned house with the daedra, or the dreamworld of that crazy king), and during the entire vanilla start because getting teleported into "a damsel in distress" or "a little bondage adventure" or even simply getting a high security yoke (or gag, if the mission demands a shout) can seriously lock me out of the mission. To give examples from other mods: when I played the second mission of Laura's bondage shop I had to disable rape because it always interrupted the dialogue in the blue Palace, and I also have to disable it every time I give birth to Estrus eggs (even though it is a supported mod), because I am also always interrupted by it.

 

Do all these examples mean that the vanilla or any of these mods have "monopoly" that forces me to remove DCL? No, they do not. And if such conflicts exist even in Vanilla VS mod, how can you expect for them not to exist with mod VS mod? Are modders (who are logically NOT expected to take all circumstance of the vanilla into consideration) supposed to take all circumstances of all mods that exist into considerations? No, they aren't. The people who are supposed to use consideration there are the users.

[Yuuen]

42 minutes ago, thedarkone1234 said:

Don't be unfair here. Generally, everyone in their right mind will disable any mod which might disturb the flow of a progressive mission.

 

I had to disable or really restrict DCL itself a few times when doing a dungeon with non-follower companions or when getting locked in rooms (such as that abandoned house with the daedra, or the dreamworld of that crazy king), and during the entire vanilla start because getting teleported into "a damsel in distress" or "a little bondage adventure" or even simply getting a high security yoke (or gag, if the mission demands a shout) can seriously lock me out of the mission. To give examples from other mods: when I played the second mission of Laura's bondage shop I had to disable rape because it always interrupted the dialogue in the blue Palace, and I also have to disable it every time I give birth to Estrus eggs (even though it is a supported mod), because I am also always interrupted by it.

 

Do all these examples mean that the vanilla or any of these mods have "monopoly" that forces me to remove DCL? No, they do not. And if such conflicts exist even in Vanilla VS mod, how can you expect for them not to exist with mod VS mod? Are modders (who are logically NOT expected to take all circumstance of the vanilla into consideration) supposed to take all circumstances of all mods that exist into considerations? No, they aren't. The people who are supposed to use consideration there are the users.

I feel like you are missing the point, you kind of reinforce what they're saying a bit actually. You disable those mod's interactions because you can.

Kimy has already been pretty clear they have no intent on creating a shut-off for the new crime system.

 

There's a difference between something being intentionally debilitating and an interaction made in a way to create incompatibilities.

 

The main issue is that it doesn't slip on in at the "take me to jail" option in the vanilla dialogue like POP does, it takes over the whole scene. So options that were initially available in vanilla aren't anymore for no other reason than they just didn't want to put them in, in Kimy's own words, because she couldn't be bothered. If they just added the "What is going to happen to me" dialogue option to the vanilla scene instead, this whole issue probably could have been sidestepped entirely and people wouldn't be so split on this as they are right now.

[Azengar]

3 hours ago, crazyduck said:

Azengar the problem is, also if i would ask kimy to make a patch, read some posts above about the slif patch to make it work with cursed loot.

You see what she wrote, so if i would make such a patch for myself its ok but it would stil stay the same basic issue .

 

And to be honest it makes not much sense this "no patched files" thing.  The only thing it stops is that people coudl make patches for cursed loot to change or enhance parts of it.

And this stuff about breaking cursed loot with it, thats nothing kimy need to fix or support, if i install a patch for some mod or make my own i would never say the original mod author has to fix it.

 

And to be honest its not like Modding or Cursed Loot or any other Mod is like Rocket Science, so yes i think People who want to patch the Mod could do that wihtout breaking the Mod or enhance it without breaking it.

 

And about Slif so what will we see next? Slif add Cursed Loot as Incompatible Mod? Or Cursed Loot stops working if Slif is detected? Would be so easy if someone simply allow other Modders to make Patches and leave the Support for this patches to this Modders.

 

Modding Skyrim IS rocket science.

 

More seriously, I guess she reacted this way because she was never asked, maybe if you did ask politely you could discuss it and come to an arrangement.
Besides, the problem, as you and she said is that the patches are going to be broken every time there is a major update so it's not the best solution.

In the end, if she wants to expand DCUR and implement new features of course it's gonna conflict with other mods so there's nothing really we can do about it, personally I care about DCUR much more than POP or SLIF so my choice is already made, others will stop using DCUR and that's fine. It's her decision and even though you can provide your feedback, this discussion has been going on for ages and she's made clear that she will implement things even if it breaks compatibility with some other mods so there's no need to keep posting about this.

[Lupine00]

43 minutes ago, Azengar said:

In the end, if she wants to expand DCUR and implement new features of course it's gonna conflict with other mods so there's nothing really we can do about it, personally I care about DCUR much more than POP or SLIF so my choice is already made, others will stop using DCUR and that's fine. It's her decision and even though you can provide your feedback, this discussion has been going on for ages and she's made clear that she will implement things even if it breaks compatibility with some other mods so there's no need to keep posting about this.

Isn't this restating the monopoly thing?

 

Kimy has a right to protect DCL however she sees fit.

 

If you happen to have a very popular mod - and then you disallow anything that modifies that mod, or any of its code, and then you use that mod to lock out another mod - and then make a statement that any patch that overcomes that lockout is a license violation...

 

Is this a reasonable policy with regard to support - which is offered primarily by the community anyway - or is it explicit leverage of a user-base to hurt another mod?

 

You can interpret it either way. To put the most malicious spin on it without any evidence is simply "trial by smear". 

We simply cannot know why a thing is done, but we can see the results.

 

 

People should be aware that DD also has similar licensing terms to DCL, which prevent any distribution of a modification of DD, despite provision of the source. The basis for DD - of course - is not simply its code base, but also the assets it uses. Some of those assets are taken from elsewhere, and open to use by anyone, others are the sole property of DD.

 

Personally, in the case of a shared framework, like DD, I find this somewhat obstructive. DD contains code and assets from many people, and copies code snippets from many other mods that came before - as does DCL for that matter. People should be aware that when they use DD, it's not in any real sense open source, because if you used the code in it to make anything like DD, the proprietors of DD could (or would?) come after you. The value of the DD source is as a document that allows you to interoperate successfully with DD, because you aren't really allowed to use it for anything else. At least, I cannot think of many useful applications for the majority of the original parts of that code beyond implementing something exactly like DD.

 

That a shared framework in a largely open-source modding environment, is so tightly controlled, on a site where people are frequently very permissive about use, and give freely to the community, seems counter to the spirit of LL modding. While DD itself is given freely, just as DCL is given freely, they are not technically given, they are loaned, and you may lose the right to use them at any time in the future. As a modder, when you build on top of DD, you cannot be sure it will be there tomorrow, and you cannot be sure it won't be arbitrarily changed to deliberately block your mod (though this has never been done, and hopefully never will). If DD adds a check for your ESP and shuts down if it finds it, you can't patch that out, because you aren't allowed to modify DD.

 

Now seems an interesting time to raise this, what with Oracle now charging for the use of Java, a language and framework they promised they would never charge for.

 

Kimy has never shown any sign of making such egregious moves as described above, but what if Kimy walks away from Skyrim tomorrow? Who will end up controlling DD, and what will they do with it? Personally, I have no idea.

 

So that's one of my little cavils about how the DD team operates. Contributions are not invited, offers of help are silently ghosted, and lost members are not replaced, and there is no possibility to extend it independently because that is explicitly prohibited. Instead of being the shared responsibility of a decent sized working-group that would be resilient to churn of its members, it's in the hands a tiny group. If it is ever taken down, then it's gone, you cannot recreate it without remaking every script file and DD-owned asset from scratch.

[Guest]

In my game I have some small bounty, I guess not enough to trigger arrest based on the threshold. Guards say "wait, I know you...". OK, I guess the normal dialogue with them to say "this isn't worth your time" is gone, that's fine. But also this seems to block any dialogue with the guard, including solicitation or dialogue from other mods. Would be good if non-arrest dialogue with guards didn't get affected by bounties.

[Kimy]

2 hours ago, MaikCG said:

And at the same time disable the mods on food? For example, I already wrote here that DCL food (once a day) is not recognized by iNeed (prison_stew missing keyword "VendorItemFood" so iNeed does not consider this an unfamiliar food and does not offer to configure). Player will simply die in jail.

 

May be generally disable all mods except DCL?

A? Did someone talk about monopolies? ?

Oh right! Apparently I got an obligation to support iNeeds too!

 

Anybody else got any demands what I need to support, while we're at it? Because it seems by publishing a mod I somehow entered a contract with each and every one of you, that I am your personal coding slave. Or something like that.

[Kimy]

12 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

DD contains code and assets from many people, and copies code snippets from many other mods that came before.

As far as code goes, it's much less a "community project" that you'd think. The overwhelming (and I mean OVERWHELMING) majority of the code in DD was written by either Min or me. Any other person that every contributed code to DD knew about the licence terms, because DD never used another. Also, the license is one of the most liberal on LL, and for all practical purposes puts ownership on the NAMESPACE (dcur* and zad*, respectively) rather than the code itself. But hey, details, I guess. The implication that the DD license usurped "community" property is almost as laughable as anything ever said by Inte. Can't believe that person still thinks you're my lackey.

 

I can see the "community" is really quick trying to claim ownership on stuff it didn't create, and it's really quick in making demands. It's not so quick with almost everything else. But that's the internet for you.

[stas2503]

@Kimy It seems to me that @MaikCG pointed out an error in your mod, namely the absence of keyword from the formID 8CDEA.
If you don’t allow to correct mistakes in mod, it’s to ask you to do it ...

[Lupine00]

6 minutes ago, Kimy said:

Can't believe that person still thinks you're my lackey.

What next? I'm Inte's lackey? Sounds like I'm doing everyone's dirty work.

 

 

There can be no attempt to claim ownership of DD, can there? That's not going to happen. Why would you even worry about it?

[stas2503]

In general, I believe that no mod should interfere with the game ...

Make it difficult? Yes. But do not interfere ...

Otherwise, the mod will be doomed, like for example Maria Eden. But a good start was ...