Submissive Lola: The Resubmission LE/SE

[CaptainJ03]

2 hours ago, Corsec said:

Are there any other conditions that exclude an NPC from becoming an sLOLA follower? Can generic NPCs like bandits become sLOLA followers if they aren't currently hostile?

I'd be careful to do that. I dimly remember some weird things happening with Paradise Halls, where you can enslave Bandits and the like. They are being killed and cloned for that mod, but something happened to the base model of this bandit, or spwan list, or whatever.(*)  You sometimes came across bandits wearing exactly the same stuff as one of your slaves. So don't be surprised if some random bandit wants to see you kneeling at his feet rather than killing you. And as Lola's owner is made essential, you might be in for a bad surprise.

But if it works, I think we all would be curious the know the results.

 

(*) I'm no modder, even less so when I had PAH installed. So the technical gibberish made even less sense to me.

 

[HexBolt8]

2 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

It seems to be the case, that with ForceGreet type topics, ALL forcegreet topics are shown if the forcegreet AI package runs, regardless of whether they are in a top-level branch or not.

I think something else is at work here.  This mod has frequent force greetings, yet I've never observed (or had reported) that the wrong one within the mod displays.  For example, when entering a town, the follower correctly demands that the player fetch ale, but never triggers the palace shoe cleaning force greeting.  If all force greeting topics were treated as valid by the game, we'd see a lot of that.

 

This mod adds conditions to its force greetings, just as the base game typically does.  When Brynjolf force-greets the player about joining the Thieves Guild, the topic requires that the speaker be Brynjolf.  When the Riften gate guard approaches the player about paying the entry tax, that topic checks a quest alias for the guard:

 

Spoiler

 

But even if all force greetings were getting triggered, how is it possible for @donttouchmethere to see a follower speak this guard's line in DialogueRiftenGateNorthBranch?  This mod does not alter the guard dialog.  It shouldn't be possible.  Could it have something to do with mashing. bashing, or smashing mods?  That seems unlikely.

 

In the past, this kind of behavior was related to an always-on blocking topic in another mod.  SLS has an "Aw, aren't you cute all tied up" blocking topic that can be valid if the PC is gagged or for possibly other bondage conditions.  When this mod was triggering a force greeting with blocking dialog, the two blocking topics butted heads and SLS won.  That's unfortunate for SLTR, but how it happens is quite understandable.  Triggering a greeting in another mod that shouldn't be active (the greeting, not the mod) is a mystery.

[HexBolt8]

In regard to the force greetings, I think I've found something useful.

 

Dating back to the original mod, Sub Lola has always used a single force greeting package with an unnecessarily broad "Topic Subtype" for a force greeting, rather than a topic reference targeted to a specific topic.  The targeted reference is more commonly used elsewhere, it's precise, and I don't see any reason why Sub Lola shouldn't be using this approach.  It seems like that might solve a whole class of force greeting problems, though that one with the gate guard is still inexplicable.

 

I'm going to break that single package out into multiple, targeted versions.  This will be in the next update.

[Herowynne]

15 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Can you confirm that this is: 

"You agreed to give me your keys. I hope you're being honest with me, but as you can't be trusted I'm going to have to search you."

 

Yes, that is the line of dialogue, followed by [Searches you for keys]

 

15 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Try this ESP and see if it stops the DFC dialogs showing up where they should not

 

Yes, I tested this ESP and it fixed the problem for me. Thanks!

[Herowynne]

2 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

I'm going to break that single package out into multiple, targeted versions.  This will be in the next update.

 

That is excellent news! Thank you!

[Lupine00]

7 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

Dating back to the original mod, Sub Lola has always used a single force greeting package with an unnecessarily broad "Topic Subtype" for a force greeting, rather than a topic reference targeted to a specific topic.  The targeted reference is more commonly used elsewhere, it's precise, and I don't see any reason why Sub Lola shouldn't be using this approach.  It seems like that might solve a whole class of force greeting problems, though that one with the gate guard is still inexplicable.

 

Funny

That's exactly what I was expecting to find when I went to examine SLTR is search of what was odd about the package.

 

I'd say that package type is an anti-pattern in modding, as it's highly likely to conflict with other mods, and is only necessary in the narrow case where you want the PC to have multiple topics available from the start of the forcegreet - which is easily avoided by putting another step in the dialogs.

 

Even mods that set conditions on their forcegreets will not be testing them properly in most cases, because they won't be testing in an environment where the issue is being frequently exercised under diverse conditions.

 

"I don't see any reason why Sub Lola shouldn't be using this approach."

No. No reasons. SL should definitely use a pattern that sucks in the topics from other mods, if it's consciously being done by design.

But sucking them in, due to its own choice of package configuration, then declaring the other mods incompatible and need to have their SubTypes edited in Tes5Edit so they can work with SLTR might be a problem.

 

Vanilla probably uses that approach because in some early stage of development they simply didn't have specific topics implemented, and so they put conditions on the dialogs to work with what they had; but it's clearly not ideal. Setting the SubType to Forcegreet should not override the behavior or Top-Level vs Normal. Clearly, it does, if you use that broad package type. I'd say that's a bug in Skyrim. Or a seriously flawed feature. Not that there's much practical difference between a misguided intent and an accidental bad result, but Bethesda rarely ever fix their mistakes, so we must accommodate them...

 

 

DF uses specific topics in all cases, Apparently, that doesn't run other mods forcegreets, or random things from vanilla.

I think that's safest. As we've seen, the alternative is obviously going to make trouble.

 

Probably DF forcegreets would still work without the Forcegreet SubType set, so that's another safeguard; but foolishly, I thought I was following best practice by setting the "correct" sub type.

 

I added conditions to most of the forcegreets in DF already, to defend against this issue - as I'm sure some other mod somewhere is also not specifying topics - but there might be some I've missed.

[NicoleDragoness]

I'm still experimenting with SubLola and I found something you could find interesting:

 

Inside the DD system (Version 5.1), there are three different piercings sets for Nipples and Clitoris: one from Assets, one from Integration and one from Expansion.

The two last have slightly different names and, in my game, are the only two sets that have some effect.

 

Now, I have set the Vibration thing in sLola to "OFF".

1. If I use the sets from Integration, my Owner never uses it as it should be. Of course, depending on the settings in the DD MCM, they could still vibrate by their own sometimes.

   In this case the messages are still from the DD system.

 

2. If I use the sets from Expansion, my Owner CAN activate them even if the vibration is set to "Off" in the sLola MCM and the messages are from sLola, not from DD.

    I think it's a bit strange.

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Second consideration:

I often loose score points because my Owner is obsessed to ask me to be naked when we are inside a dangerous dungeon and, of course, I refuse to fight a pletora of Super Extreme Supreme Draugr Warlords completely naked!

Okay, I know I can simply redress after a short time but sometimes it's really dangerous (because my difficult settings).

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Question:

I'm not sure why I can set the threesome preferences of my Owner in the MCM if he NEVER ask to have sex with me AND another one NPC. (Except the case of Dibella and Bards that are, if I have understood well, on their own scene).

[bathoz]

So, I want to give Submissive Lola a try, but I have a random question first: what is the use case where you have SL (definitely needs a different acronym) and DFC together? Surely they fight each other?

 

edit: I don't mean mechanically, but as mods they serve very similar purposes.

[keitsoru]

2 hours ago, bathoz said:

So, I want to give Submissive Lola a try, but I have a random question first: what is the use case where you have SL (definitely needs a different acronym) and DFC together? Surely they fight each other?

 

edit: I don't mean mechanically, but as mods they serve very similar purposes.

I'm assuming by DFC, you mean Deviously Followers - Continued?

You can use multiple follower frameworks in conjunction with Submissive Lola, as @Herowynne has expressed in previous posts.

 

SL is centered primarily around consensual content. DFC focuses more so on your player relinquishing freedoms due to financial hardship.

What you can do is have one follower act as a master for Submissive Lola, and a second follower act as a Devious Follower. I think the scenario described in previous posts is pretending the two of them are fighting for dominance. You just need to make sure you don't enable rules/features that conflict.

[Baltasarr80]

DFC combined with resub lola doesnt work that wellto see some posts before and described by lupine too ... but you could have one follower for the devious part and one for the resub part

[Naps-On-Dirt]

5 hours ago, NicoleDragoness said:

I often loose score points because my Owner is obsessed to ask me to be naked when we are inside a dangerous dungeon and, of course, I refuse to fight a pletora of Super Extreme Supreme Draugr Warlords completely naked!

Okay, I know I can simply redress after a short time but sometimes it's really dangerous (because my difficult settings).

 

When this happens to me, it usually triggers Deviously Helpless and gets us -both- raped, so my master regrets it as much as I do.  Not that that stops him from asking again later.

[HexBolt8]

8 hours ago, NicoleDragoness said:

I have set the Vibration thing in sLola to "OFF".

This controls exactly what it says:  "Your dom might put vibrating DD piercings on you if you become too submissive."  If you're already wearing vibrating piercings, another setting "Vibration troll arousal" controls whether the owner activates them.  That actually applied to any vibrating devious device (you might have acquired one from another source) including plugs.  To vibrate, a device must have the Lively or Very Lively keywords.  Not surprisingly, the piercings with soul gems are the vibrating variety, since vibration requires a power source.

 

8 hours ago, NicoleDragoness said:

my Owner is obsessed to ask me to be naked when we are inside a dangerous dungeon

As you said, you can redress again in a few minutes.  If you don't think your owner can protect you in a dangerous situation, it's better to pass the time in some other way.  Offering sex can do that, which is useful because lowering the owner's arousal greatly increases the chance that you'll be allowed to dress again.

 

8 hours ago, NicoleDragoness said:

I'm not sure why I can set the threesome preferences of my Owner

Besides the Bard event, it applies to "I am Famous", where you must offer sex to a stranger.  If the 3-way check passes, the owner will want to join you for the sex.

[HexBolt8]

5 hours ago, bathoz said:

what is the use case where you have SL (definitely needs a different acronym) and DFC together? Surely they fight each other?

They can be used together, but since the follower exhibits somewhat different motivations and personality through those mods, players have said that it works better with 2 followers, one as the SLTR owner and the other as the devious follower.  That also avoids the confusion wherein both mods have conversation topics "Master/Mistress?" and it's unclear which is which.  However, some players start with DFC, then later add SLTR to the same follower.  That's if you want to use them together.  Both have enough content to keep you busy.

 

5 hours ago, bathoz said:

as mods they serve very similar purposes.

There are significant differences.  DFC can enslave you for a while, a situation that you can escape by paying off your debt.  SLTR enslaves you at the start, and that state lasts as long as you're using the mod (asking to leave enslavement stops the mod except for the MCM).  DFC wants your gold; SLTR wants your obedience.  DFC tricks you; SLTR commands you.  They're different experiences, so choose what you want.

[HexBolt8]

2 hours ago, Naps-On-Dirt said:

When this happens to me, it usually triggers Deviously Helpless and gets us -both- raped, so my master regrets it as much as I do.  Not that that stops him from asking again later.

That's funny.  ?  I'm hoping that TurboNerd will one day resume development.  He recently made an appearance.

[KLongad Sirtup]

You say that you aren't utilising the extra keyword features of modern SexLab arousal modifications (e.g. SexLab Aroused eXtended or SexLab Aroused Modular Edition), though the features of that modification would seriously help this mod.

 

For instance the modern arousal modifications support the use of keywords which support how much cover an apparel provides and/or its purpose. This means that you could potentially have it so there's a rule that the player character, has to wear skimpy clothing in certain situations. It allows for the potential to gain a different amount of arousal based on whether an actor (especially humanoid) has apparel on, as well as how much is of the two character's bodies are covered.

 

It would be a good idea to recommend the modern one at minimum as its arousal engine is much faster than any of the older ones, due to it housing the engine in an C++ SKSE plugin dll. With interfacing linking via a esp and Papyrus scripts.

[HexBolt8]

4 hours ago, KLongad Sirtup said:

For instance the modern arousal modifications support the use of keywords which support how much cover an apparel provides and/or its purpose. This means that you could potentially have it so there's a rule that the player character, has to wear skimpy clothing in certain situations. It allows for the potential to gain a different amount of arousal based on whether an actor (especially humanoid) has apparel on, as well as how much is of the two character's bodies are covered.

Not really.  I haven't looked at SL Aroused Modular Edition.  The author says it's a beta version (in all caps, in red font) and I very much try to avoid mods that the author warns are not ready for prime time.  SLAX supports partial-covering keywords by providing them and letting you assign them to clothing.  However, it treats clothing is either naked or not, with no in-between.  Its UpdateClothedArousal function is empty.  The author says it's a work-in progress, and I'm confident that in time the functionality for its newer features will be filled in.  I'm using SLAX myself (with Tenri's patches), but for now an actor is either naked or not for determining arousal.  And SLAX is only available for LE unless you're willing to go find the SE version of the SKSE plugin, which many players might not want to do.  So at present the only benefit of "skimpy" keywords is the sort seen in mods like Baka's, where they simply drive different dialog options. 

 

I think it's best at this point to let players choose the arousal mod that suits them, and see how the promising newer versions develop.

[HexBolt8]

Development on the 100 score event is complete, but I still have to finish testing it.  It's a small event, but it's suffered a bit from feature creep.  The last "creep" was supporting owners who are vampires -- nothing new, just ensuring that they have the right options and only appropriate options.  It's a non-repeatable event (unless you get enslaved again) so I want to get it right.

 

The next update will also include splitting the mod's force-greeting AI package into 22 separate ones, each targeting a specific topic.  Coincidentally, the next update will be version 22.  It should handle avoidable conflicts with blocking or force-greet dialog in other mods.

[Lupine00]

I've been using SLTR for testing the forcegreet issue, and also to see how I can make DF transition in and out of SLTR slavery smoothly. First have to feel how it plays.

 

It's very plush and polished, with so many of the cool little features you suggested might work in DF. So much nicer than the original mod, which mainly teleported you to above the giant camp and dropped you to your death, or only ever asked for tasks you could never complete in time.

 

My thought was - as an option for people who install both - to add to DF a chance to use a variant of SLTR slavery instead of DF slavery, but add some rules, like the kal DD addon, so you still have to wear the "classic" DF slavery items: magic mittens and crawl boots - collar is already covered I think.

 

It shows its origins in some ways though. It's almost always about unlocking things when your score is high enough, not enabling punishments because it's low. I'm not sure how well a punishment style would work even if it were available; SL was always about voluntary acts rather than being punished, and the events have such a different flavor to SD+ etc. There is no tickbox for "owner treats you with contempt and delights in your misery". Probably for the best.

 

 

One thing I'm noticing at the moment, using both, is that if you enable the follower to eagerly offer slavery, they do it almost every time you speak to them - probably because of how many devices my PC is wearing or something - but it does become a bit repetitive.

 

Is it too much to suggest the cooldown for that could be extended maybe? If you get time.

 

 

I haven't looked at the code yet. So just being lazy asking...

 

Are there already mod events to start up a SLTR slavery with a contract duration, and maybe min and max slavery score range?

If there a mod event if you leave slavery?

 

 

The above mod events would allow me to do the integration I want, I think.

So, instead of escaping DF slavery through debt payoff, you get <player configured> days of slavery, and then if you can meet the release requirements you're released.

DF would then reduces you debt according to some mechanic, unpause, and proceed as normal.

 

And if you can't meet the release requirements in SLTR, you stay enslaved for however long it takes. Nothing special required, just SLTR ending as normal, or not.

[CaptainJ03]

30 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

Are there already mod events to start up a SLTR slavery with a contract duration, and maybe min and max slavery score range?

If there a mod event if you leave slavery?

Only answering as a user, not knowing any of the innards.

When you get in SLtR via Simple Slavery++, there is a minimum contract duration of five days. You can set that higher in the MCM menu. The submission score is (unfortunately) always zero, even if you get here being sold from one SLtR owner to another.

 

There are events (for Lola) when the slavery ends. It doesn't end automatically, you have to ask - and Mistress isn't happy. It hurts her, that you want to leave, so you'll hurt a bit, too - and get a severe whipping.

There also is the chance (MCM setting) to being sold into slavery, when you leave. I think that one triggers SS++

[bigschwabbel]

I'm experiencing some bugs or the results of me doing something wrong.

 

1. When my owner wants me to wear a blindfold I'm supposed to take it off at 6pm. When I do that the mod doesn't register it and I get zapped and loose sub score. Re-equipping it and un-equipping it again doesn't help. I've had that several times now.

 

The only thing I can think of is "Being a cow". I'm currently in the process of being transformed (ears and horns). But I'm running that mod with hardcore mode disabled, meaning BAC doesn't prevent headgear from being equipped.

 

2. Something else I've also experienced multiple times. When I have to go fetch some goods from a merchant, the last merchant gives you the goods and wants sex. The moment the actors are summoned to start the scene, if present the butt hook gets removed from my inventory entirely (it does not just un-equip) resulting in zapping and loss of sub score. Getting a new hook via console and equipping it stops the zapping.

[HexBolt8]

41 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

I've been using SLTR for testing the forcegreet issue

I have an update for this mod's force greeting package, and I plan to release that today, so you might not want to invest time chasing issues that might go away.  After this update, force-greeting testing will be very helpful.

[Lupine00]

4 minutes ago, CaptainJ03 said:

When you get in SLtR via Simple Slavery++, there is a minimum contract duration of five days. You can set that higher in the MCM menu. The submission score is (unfortunately) always zero, even if you get here being sold from one SLtR owner to another.

 

There are events (for Lola) when the slavery ends. It doesn't end automatically, you have to ask - and Mistress isn't happy. It hurts her, that you want to leave, so you'll hurt a bit, too - and get a severe whipping.

There also is the chance (MCM setting) to being sold into slavery, when you leave. I think that one triggers SS++

Almost, but not quite...

 

While it's probably possible to poke into SLTR's settings and adjust them after enslavement, I'd rather not if I can avoid it.

 

However, if you set the sell-off option, fair enough, take your chances...

The only question there is what to do with the PC's debt, but I guess it could just be written off.

[Lupine00]

4 minutes ago, HexBolt8 said:

so you might not want to invest time chasing issues that might go away

If SLTR did it some other mod could. It would be strange if some carriage driver mod, or random quest mod started getting DF demands for piercing checks, etc.

 

I wonder how many people find using both mods works for them right now. It can't be too many, as they sort of clash as it stands and you need a "vision" for it to work. Which some players have.

 

DF dialogs can fit pretty well simultaneous with SLTR, if you put DF into endless mode, but you'd need to disable SLTR's cash leeching, or you'd be doomed to being perma-stuck in chains of debt. Another issue is getting the follower to rest and regain lives, which requires money.

 

In combination with SLS licenses, it can be a bit overwhelming. SLS can make getting sleep a bit too hard sometimes.

[Herowynne]

42 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

I wonder how many people find using both mods works for them right now. It can't be too many, as they sort of clash as it stands and you need a "vision" for it to work. Which some players have.

 

As I have mentioned in previous posts, I often use SubLola and DFC together. I have tried the combination with a single follower who is both DF and SubLola master, and I have tried it with two separate followers.

 

I discovered that I much prefer two separate followers -- one who is DF and the other is SubLola master. When I play this way, the dialogue from the two mods seems to naturally suggest that the two followers are competing with each other as to the "best" way to dominate the player character.

 

The common element from both DFC and SubLola is that they make followers a lot more interesting, with a lot more interaction with the player character. Since I typically like to play with two or more followers, I really like mods that make followers more interesting and more interactive.

 

Here is an example:

 

The other day I went to Dragonsreach. My SubLola mistress wanted me to lick her boots. Then shortly afterwards (because I was wearing my collar) my DF initiated the whole "offer me to the Jarl as a pet dog sextoy" event. It definitely felt like the DF was trying to "one-up" my SubLola mistress.

[HexBolt8]

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

My thought was - as an option for people who install both - to add to DF a chance to use a variant of SLTR slavery instead of DF slavery, but add some rules, like the kal DD addon, so you still have to wear the "classic" DF slavery items: magic mittens and crawl boots - collar is already covered I think.

Yes, a collar is always required.  Perhaps items like the mittens and crawl boots could be added and enforced by DFC?  There's also a conflict with the boots and at least 2 SLTR events that require the PC to wear certain footwear.  If the main point of the boots is to make the player crawl, then maybe that could be handled by a different item or simply with a spell (Master says you will crawl, so you obey). 

 

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

It shows its origins in some ways though. It's almost always about unlocking things when your score is high enough, not enabling punishments because it's low. I'm not sure how well a punishment style would work even if it were available; SL was always about voluntary acts rather than being punished, and the events have such a different flavor to SD+ etc.

Yes.  The goal has been to keep the original feel of the mod while adding a lot more content and customization options.  The basic assumption is that the PC wants to cooperate (most ways to enter enslavement are consensual), but at times might have to be coerced into new things.  When given an order, the player typically can choose between defiance (which usually results in a zap and having to do it anyway), reluctant/hesitant obedience, and eager agreement.

 

Nonconsensual enslavement is through Simple Slavery ++ (the older SS varieties just start the Strong Hand quest and leave the rest to the player).  The PC is acquired by a pre-designated follower, very much like DFC handles enslavement from SS.  The player can set a contract period in the MCM, but the mod enforces a minimum duration of 5 days.  There's certainly room to open up other paths to SLTR nonconsensual enslavement.  Anyway, the initial dialog suggests that you're lucky to have been bought by this NPC rather than the cruel other bidders.  The player can rationalize cooperating and obeying as the least bad path, with the door to freedom a few days away, so the owner never needs to use harsh punishments.

 

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

One thing I'm noticing at the moment, using both, is that if you enable the follower to eagerly offer slavery, they do it almost every time you speak to them - probably because of how many devices my PC is wearing or something - but it does become a bit repetitive.

 

Is it too much to suggest the cooldown for that could be extended maybe? If you get time.

MrEsturk designed and built the follower approach; it was a nice addition.  The assumption is that the player will enable the quest in the MCM at the time when the player wants the PC to be approached, so normally the PC will agree on the first approach.  The delay just provides a bit of suspense and feels a little more natural.  Are you suggesting a longer delay for the initial approach, or a longer cooldown for subsequent approaches by the same follower?

 

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

Are there already mod events to start up a SLTR slavery with a contract duration, and maybe min and max slavery score range?

If there a mod event if you leave slavery?

SS++ kicks off a SLTR quest to start enslavement.  That could easily be wrapped with a mod event, but that quest is very narrowly tailored for the SS slave market (it takes place there).  A similar more generic quest (with a mod event) shouldn't be hard to add (or a specific one tailored for DFC).  What do you want to do with the submission score?  Set an initial value, or use it as a threshold for leaving enslavement?  There's no mod event sent for leaving slavery, but that's easy to add.  What, if any, additional information would be useful for the event to carry?

 

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

The above mod events would allow me to do the integration I want, I think.

So, instead of escaping DF slavery through debt payoff, you get <player configured> days of slavery, and then if you can meet the release requirements you're released.

That would be fun, a period where the PC is shown who's boss, and has to learn to behave nicely and take orders to end it.  SLTR has a feature for adding contract days as punishment.  If DFC is also enforcing rules and meting out punishments, possibly you'd want to also add contract days.  There's no interface for that, but there could be.

 

One thing I disliked about Lozeak's implementation was the DF's abrupt personality change when enslavement occurs.  SLTR enslavement would smooth that over, since the tone of its dialog is similar to the non-enslavement part of DFC.