Wartimes - a daughter's tale LE (Alternate start scenario)

[Balgin]

12 minutes ago, Monoman1 said:

 

Updated slightly. 

Opinions on:

- Starting point for sister's reveal?

- Placing Mother in a random hold. Finding her would give you a legitimate reason to explore. Confront Father when found. Removes healing upkeep? Can buy mother back for half her healing cost? But why would you want mother at this point? Mother is a real PITA to reconcile into the mod mechanics/plot. 

- Not sure about Benji sending thugs. How can a guy living in a shack, wearing rags afford to send hired goons. If I make him rich then why didn't he just pay for mother's healing himself... Yuck.

For the Sister - not everyone uses PAH slaves (I know I don't) so don't tie her appearance into the point in the mod at which father would start asking the daughter to go and get slaves for him.

 

Possibly have the sister just replace the mother's current Dragonsreach position so that she can be discovered relatively early. That feels wrong 'though for her to be available as soon as our girl becomes a servant. In that case maybe a threshold (depravity/submission etc) would unlock it and the father brings up the topic.

 

Not sure about the whole brother angle as that undermines the desire for a male heir. Perhaps he's competition (son of the mother's former husband). In that case, are the brother and the sister living together or separate? Does each know that the other exists? If the father made the mother get rid of her two other children then why did he keep this one? Did the mother beg to keep one? Did he make her choose between the two twins?

 

Exploring to find mother would take time. Time that you need to be spending at home working. Either have jobs that send the daughter to locations where the mother could be (like the piercing jobs) or put her in a very specific place and have a number of tasks that send the daughter close to that location. We don't want to make the discovery of the mother mandatory but we do want to make it possible (as opposed to being in some far flung location we're not even going to visit). Then again, perhaps after the Sister has been brought into the fold, maybe then we get sent to find our mother and bring her home and psychologically shock & break her when she sees that not even her other daughter could escape this man's depravity. That would be a rather different angle but could be something we do after we pay for her return. "you'll have to go and collect her to bring her home."

 

Reason for getting the mother back - maybe she helps around the house. We don't actually have to see her doing things but it could reduce the workload/increase cooldowns on father's demands (and father might get really perverted and ask for a threesome with both of them).

I'd honestly just completely remove Benji. It would make things much simpler.

[jc321]

13 minutes ago, Monoman1 said:

Starting point for sister's reveal?

- Placing Mother in a random hold. Finding her would give you a legitimate reason to explore. Confront Father when found. Removes healing upkeep? Can buy mother back for half her healing cost? But why would you want mother at this point? Mother is a real PITA to reconcile into the mod mechanics/plot. 

- Not sure about Benji sending thugs. How can a guy living in a shack, wearing rags afford to send hired goons. If I make him rich then why didn't he just pay for mother's healing himself... Yuck.

 

- Sister Reveal

    Triggered on Improvements to Farm (ie: once you get a horse, or rumours of parties) - Sister wondering what's changed - Or hears about sisters fame. Maybe hears about sister being pregnant 

 

- Placing Mother in Random hold - Might take a while to find her, could you randomise in certain bars/taverns around whiterun and riverwood? - Or if totally random could NPC's provide gossip hearing where she might be? 

 

- Benji and thugs - Well he could be a thug. The reason he lives in a shack is he's been outlawed from Whiterun/holds hence he lives as a hermit. His hired goons might be just favours .. May Benji was the leader at some point? - 

 

additional annoying things your sister could do.

Steal stuff from you (post collecting wood .. making food) - Outside that not sure if you already have a block on what you can hold

Plant stuff on player (ie: knife .. or food when you're not allowed proper food)

When locked in Jail -- Assume spending the night getting acquainted isn't just restricted to futa route?

 

One additional throw of ideas 

Always like the idea in ToH regarding the slave food bin and various disgusting foods to consume. You already have the option to ask for food and depending on attitude you either get something nice or something horrible (like a carrot!) but could horrible change at certain levels and/or could they provided by a slave food barrel (in the kitchen .. ). Could be leftovers from the party .. If Real Needs integration then could use rotten food options .. although customised ones sound great. 

  

 

[Monoman1]

Generally the narrative I was going for with siblings (which you can see at the beginning of the chart) is that you have an older brother and sister that were taken in a bandit raid when you were babies. This fairly loose narrative allows you to configure your family as you see fit....

No brother, no sister

Twin Sister, no brother

Sister, no brother

Sister and brother

No sister, brother.

etc etc.

 

We can say that brother/sister was killed/lost in the raid depending on configuration. 

 

We can also say that Mother/Father are the only ones aware that they exist. PC still thinks she's an only child. Then we can, whenever it is convenient, reveal sister/brother at points that help the plot along. 

 

Sister when you've been broken down. 

Brother possibly as an escape option. 

 

I'm happy enough with this setup unless someone has a better option that fits the mechanics. 

 

What I was really asking about there was about the point at which sister should be revealed to you. IMO it has to be at a point where Father more or less considers you broken in. Having fully progressed through your sex training and become pregnant seems like a logical place to me.

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Monoman1

[kapibar]

1 hour ago, Monoman1 said:

- Not sure about Benji sending thugs. How can a guy living in a shack, wearing rags afford to send hired goons. If I make him rich then why didn't he just pay for mother's healing himself... Yuck.

He doesn't have to be loaded. It's enough that he has friends. Father's not exactly a Carrington himself, but has proper connections. Benji lives in Riften, where it's not hard to find oneself in a proper circle. For me, it wouldn't be surprising if a guy like this knew some shady types who know other shady types. It's also not a stretch that he could tell some people that there's an extremely hot bitch they could rape, rob and sell and no one will bat an eye. Also, she's probably loaded.

 

In the bratty attitude scenario I'd also add rape. No point in prolonging the inevitable, player chose to be a problem, so the PC doesn't get her adaptation period. I don't know if it's possible/difficult, but maybe you should consider modifying the apology for a brat. If she refuses father's request, she gets the D anyway and spends 12h in the cellar bound, for a good measure. Good girls get leniency, bad girls get punshed.

Edited May 16, 2022 by kapibar

[Balgin]

29 minutes ago, Monoman1 said:

We can also say that Mother/Father are the only ones aware that they exist. PC still thinks she's an only child. Then we can, whenever it is convenient, reveal sister/brother at points that help the plot along. 

 

Sister when you've been broken down. 

 

Perhaps once she's pregnant he tires of his current servant and fancies something a bit different. Sometimes he wants to shag a pregnant woman (or to sexually abuse her to keep her in her place) and sometimes he wants to bed one who's not pregnant. If you're going with the Sister is a Slag route then perhaps she was working as a whore instead of a servant. That doesn't tie in so well with the angle of forcing the corrupted daughter to entrap her innocent sibling and seeing her sister treated better would be a good punishment for expecting her to have it just as hard.

[kapibar]

1 hour ago, Monoman1 said:

MO it has to be at a point where Father more or less considers you broken in.

 

Respectfully, I disagree. There's little point in adding the sister when PC is already broken, no psychological impact on her. She's already dead inside more or less, willingly sacrificing her body to a man who violated her on every conceivable level. Enslaving your own sister adds nothing to it, while it should be the new low for the PC. I think the sister quest should be enabled when amputated mother is back home. Father has a new leverage on the PC - either she brings him the sister, or the mother goes six feet under. You could also have a nice scene where mother tries to protest only to be silenced by father. Then she could refuse to eat, so the PC would have to force nursing soup on her. This would leave mother a broken husk of a human being, forcefully kept alive only by her daughter. Breaking the sister in such conditions would in fact be a new low for the PC. From there it's not hard to imagine she would be less of a human herself - traitorous slave, hating herself, but desperately wanting mother to live, still hoping. Sacrificing mother and becoming father's slavewife would be a final straw.

 

But then again one things always bugs me about the "ending" of WT. The PC still has one motivation to push forward - her child. From the psychological pov children are a powerful motivator to keep your shit together. So I think it should be un-alived to really brake the PC and turn her into a plaything. I'm thinking - going into the dark territory - maybe father could force the PC to poison the child. Asked about why he would want to kill his heir, he would reveal he has as many bastards as there are mountains in Skyrim. From the start he didn't really care and all he really wanted was to destroy the PC. This could kick-off the entire escape plan. In the end you get your revenge, but the character is completely broken and dirty.

[adle]

might there also be an option that PC's sister wont become dominant? 

so that both siblings would be serving father to eternity 

[Monoman1]

19 minutes ago, kapibar said:

when amputated mother is back home.

She may not make it that far. 

It's a good idea though. Using the mother as leverage. But again, we still haven't got that really killer reason to keep mother alive other than lame debuffs and the vague threat from your uncle. 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Monoman1

[Monoman1]

9 minutes ago, adle said:

might there also be an option that PC's sister wont become dominant? 

so that both siblings would be serving father to eternity 

Sister being dominant doesn't mean you stop serving father. 

Sister is dominant over you but still submissive to Father. 

[adle]

5 minutes ago, Monoman1 said:

Sister being dominant doesn't mean you stop serving father. 

Sister is dominant over you but still submissive to Father. 

yeah i understand. but never played with dominant female NPC, because i like the idea that women in skyrim are make and being dominated by men. this is why im asking if there will be an option for non dom sister. just not my kind of immersion you know. 

 

if not, its okay too. but would prefer non dom sister. at the end, i will take everything you serve us

[kapibar]

12 minutes ago, Monoman1 said:

She may not make it that far. 

Heh. I'm really wondering what you're cooking in that head of yours.

Alright then. Alternative. Father sets up PC for an epic failure. A one that gets you the rope. Then - he gives her a choice. It's either the rope, or she brings him the other collectible for the set - the sister. If player chooses the rope - game over. As to when... randomly, not sooner than 15-20 days after the mother's gone. The PC should be pretty tamed by then and still sinking. She should at the very least have casual sex with father, if not pregnant already.

[Monoman1]

3 minutes ago, kapibar said:

Heh. I'm really wondering what you're cooking in that head of yours.

Ah nothing cooking. I just meant that you may have failed to pay for the upkeep for mother thus allowing her to expire and thereby cutting you off from the sister plotline entirely.

Also I edited my post a little afterwards. Yea I know I'm a fucker for editing posts. 

3 minutes ago, adle said:

yeah i understand. but never played with dominant female NPC, because i like the idea that women in skyrim are make and being dominated by men. this is why im asking if there will be an option for non dom sister. just not my kind of immersion you know. 

 

if not, its okay too. but would prefer non dom sister. at the end, i will take everything you serve us

Well, we'll see. Non dom should be easier in theory right? Just don't make her dom...

Everything's simple until you actually get down to it though.

[tinkerbelle]

5 hours ago, Monoman1 said:

Yea I know. I think people won't mind the cost of 2/3/4/5 slots for modularity. 

Is it not possible to, instead of pieces of the whole tattoo being added to additional slots, to have partially completed tattoos which swap out the same slot?

 

[Monoman1]

5 minutes ago, tinkerbelle said:

Is it not possible to, instead of pieces of the whole tattoo being added to additional slots, to have partially completed tattoos which swap out the same slot?

 

Yes you can. But consider if say we have a system with 5 different stages of tats. And you come along and think "well I quite like stage 1, 2, 4 & 5 but I don't like stage 3" then you're in a bit of a bind. Because if you want to modify stage 3 then you'd also have to modify stages 4 & 5. 

 

If each stage is applied separately then you can swap out any single stage. 

 

It's ease of modification at the cost of slots. 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Monoman1

[tinkerbelle]

26 minutes ago, Monoman1 said:

Yes you can. But consider if say we have a system with 5 different stages of tats. And you come along and think "well I quite like stage 1, 2, 4 & 5 but I don't like stage 3" then you're in a bit of a bind. Because if you want to modify stage 3 then you'd also have to modify stages 4 & 5. 

 

If each stage is applied separately then you can swap out any single stage. 

 

It's ease of modification at the cost of slots. 

OK.  Good call.  The next question would be, are the slots fixed or are they floating.  So if I had put tattoos on slots 1 & 2, would the first stage overwrite my tattoo in slot 1 or would it be put in slot 3?

 

[Monoman1]

Just now, tinkerbelle said:

OK.  Good call.  The next question would be, are the slots fixed or are they floating.  So if I had put tattoos on slots 1 & 2, would the first stage overwrite my tattoo in slot 1 or would it be put in slot 3?

 

No overwriting. Use a free slot. If a free slot can't be found then do nothing. So worst that can happen is nothing. 

 

Many of my mods do overlays and use the same approach. 

[kapibar]

58 minutes ago, Monoman1 said:

Ah nothing cooking. I just meant that you may have failed to pay for the upkeep for mother thus allowing her to expire and thereby cutting you off from the sister plotline entirely.

Wanted a motivator to keep mother alive...? Well, here it is. No ridiculous debuffs necessary. You have your answer in the plotline. The punishment for neglegence is being cut off from a fucking cool content.

[Monoman1]

1 minute ago, kapibar said:

Wanted a motivator to keep mother alive...?

Is it though? If you're new to the mod or just put yourself in your PCs shoes. 

 

You're not aware you have a sister. You're not aware if mother dies you'll never see her. It's an invisible consequence rather than a motivator. And Father would have no reason not to pursue your sister if mother dies. 

[kapibar]

39 minutes ago, Monoman1 said:

Is it though? If you're new to the mod or just put yourself in your PCs shoes. 

Going with that logic - new player also wouldn't be aware of debuffs and they would hit out of nowhere. So how exactly would that be a motivator...?
 

43 minutes ago, Monoman1 said:

And Father would have no reason not to pursue your sister if mother dies. 

With this I have to strongly disagree. Humiliating mother is just a bonus, it's the PC that is the target and the centre of his entire scheme. If mother's dead, he would have all the more reason to drag the sister into his crap. He would replace the leverage he had on PC, obviously. He would also have two extremely attractive slaves he could profit from. Also destroying the PC gives him a rather obvious pleasure, and what would be more degrading than turning someone's sibling, twin a that into a warden in her life's prison? When mother is dead, father actually has very limited resources to keep the PC in check. If he doesn't want to loose her, he has all the reasons to pursue the sister and increase his chances.

[Monoman1]

8 minutes ago, kapibar said:

Going with that logic - new player also wouldn't be aware of debuffs and they would hit out of nowhere. So how exactly would that be a motivator...?

Yes I would absolutely agree. As I said they are very lame. Which is why I'm looking for solid/relatable/tangible motivation to keep mother alive. We've had none so far. 

 

Maybe, Father could just impose some rule on the PC: 

"As long as your mother is alive I will..... blah"

1. Allow you to buy licences with favour?

2. Improved favour for tasks?

3. ????

 

8 minutes ago, kapibar said:

If mother's dead, he would have all the more reason to drag the sister into his crap

That's what I meant. Therefore if he was to say to you "if you don't keep your mother alive you'll never see your sister" makes no sense for his character. He's going to get your sister involved one way or the other. 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Monoman1

[kapibar]

5 minutes ago, Monoman1 said:

Yes I would absolutely agree. As I said they are very lame. Which is why I'm looking for solid/relatable/tangible motivation to keep mother alive. We've had none so far.

 

I'd be glad to help, however I have a difficult time understanding why exactly mother should be kept alive. She serves little to no purpose beside being a leverage on the PC. And an easily replaceable leverage, because there's still the sister, and later the child. Maybe if you could clarify what is your exact narrative goal it would be easier to pinpoint a mechanic that would best serve this purpose.

[audhol]

ok for the feedback for stage 4 will work on it some more but I think tonight is the resumption of the JD trial so it moight not get a look in!

with regards to sister what if she is introduced if the daughter refuses to be the breeding mare for father. He would either find or send the p.c. to find the sister and then make her the mother of his son. This would enable the big sister to have a logically higher stand in the hiérarchie and also give her a reason to hate her little sister. Father would treat her better than the p.c. because she agreed to bear his child.

[kapibar]

1 minute ago, audhol said:

what if she is introduced if the daughter refuses to be the breeding mare for father.

FUTA goes out of the window. Also not exactly a dominant trait.

[leakim]

On 5/15/2022 at 4:58 PM, coffeeink said:

tbh. WT is not a start mod anymore for me. It has so much nice Content.

 

I even make an own profile for it and balance all the mods for WT (remove other mods i don't need, add some specific ones etc.).

Because i really like this simple "farm setting" So i add some mods around it for Animations, Whiterun Area Modifications, etc.

 

And as we all know. Removing mods from an existing save is never a good idea ?

 

 

Kinda with you on this one.

 

I'd be very interested in hearing what "flavor" mods you are adding as I am looking to do something similar myself. Especially interested in adding content in the area around Whiterun without affecting WT content. 

 

Things @Monoman1 could consider related to mother:

• Does it really make sense that your mother has to hate you once you get her back? I get why it was like that originally to truly make the PC feel terrible, but that certainly does not help in the whole "motivation to keep mother alive saga". There being a good friendly relationship between the characters could probably help this significantly. Obviously developing such a relationship would take significant effort on Monoman part, so I am not sure it would really be worth going too far down this road, but maybe it would be nice if the mother was more understanding about the monster that father is, therefore being more likable and thereby helping a little with motivation for keeping her alive.
• Maybe dialogs could be added to mother that are somehow beneficial to the PC. This is very tangible, because once she is dead such dialogs wont be available anymore.
  • Free skill training for certain skill trees every day?
  • Perhaps tasks that helps you more easily make gold.
  • Generally feel-good dialogs that are meant to make the PC feel happy despite the terrible situation that could give you temporary buffs that are easy to feel in a mod like this:  
    • Running speed buff: Since you will be walking in high heels, this will be very noticable for the period it lasts.
    • Alchemy buff: Helps cooking + money.
    • Etc.
• Maybe it could be through her that ideas such as killing father through the Dark Brotherhookd are developed.
  • Frankly, just the idea of needing to keep her alive to have the "best possible ending" is quite a motivator.
  • EDIT: Perhaps father could overhear some of the dialogs you have with mother and perhaps even kill her and/or punish you severely. Often it can be nice to build up hope, for example: This scheme is going to get rid of father. Only to then completely destroy that very same hope later, making the PC feel even worse.
• Maybe it could be through her that ideas such as finding your sister to "help you out of this situation" are developed. Obviously, only to take a bad turn. This would allow for a different way of introducing the sister into the story that does not involve the PC being "evil", which I am not a big fan of. In case of mother being dead, the sister could still be introduced in the way you otherwise imagined.

 

A question for Monoman1: You mentioned that FM3 is "preferred" over BeeingFemale at some point I think. Could you expand on why? Always used BeeingFemale (and I liked integration with other mods such as EC+) and was wondering if I should switch since integration with Wartimes has far higher priority for me.

 

Also a general question for anyone using FM3 in Oldrim: Can it really be right that you need to dive deep into the LL forum support thread for FM3 in order to find a script fix that makes scaling work properly with SLIF?

 

It's also very interesting to hear you've been playing the mod at timescale 5. Obviously if you include adventuring this is basically a requirement. Could consider adding a note about changing timescale in the description of the mod. Never occurred to me changing that. But now I definitely will.

 

Man, this mod is really shaping up to be the best thing that ever happend to sexy skyrim (along with Monoman's other mods, of course :D).

Edited May 16, 2022 by leakim

[Monoman1]

13 minutes ago, kapibar said:

I'd be glad to help, however I have a difficult time understanding why exactly mother should be kept alive. She serves little to no purpose beside being a leverage on the PC. And an easily replaceable leverage, because there's still the sister, and later the child. Maybe if you could clarify what is your exact narrative goal it would be easier to pinpoint a mechanic that would best serve this purpose.

Well I've stated it several times now. The problem is two fold:

1. The player has no emotional attachment to Mother. This really can only be solved by adding events etc in the lead up to the current beginning of WT. Sweet, endearing moments of connection between Mother and PC. 

2. The player is expected to pay for Mother's healing but because of point 1 and because there are zero repercussions then it is easier to just let Mother die than to continue to pay to keep her alive. 

 

Paying for Mother's healing is intended to keep you destitute, selling everything you own/find to pay for her; steal stuff, beg, whore, explore dangerous locations in the hope of finding something you can sell to get her back. Why do this? Just let her die and save the gold for yourself is the cold, calculating thing to do...

 

I could nearly, at this point, just add mother's upkeep on to your 'debt'. You are periodically approached by Father now to pay your debt and he takes gold or items from your person or from your room to cover the cost. Then remove Mother's health mechanic completely. You owe Father 100 gold per day for Mother's upkeep, full stop. But then it is very similar (identical really) to 'rent'. 

 

So what I'm looking for is an obvious tangible motivation for the player to spend all that time, gold and effort to keep mother alive, to look for her, to bring her back home, to have her healed...

 

"I'd better give 100 gold to father for Mother's upkeep, instead of saving it/spending it on something for myself because..... <insert reason here>"

 

It can be carrot, it can be stick.