Devious Followers - Continued

[Pamatronic]

On 2/13/2021 at 6:28 AM, Lupine00 said:

As for implementation timing for "extreme punishment", I won't even look at it until the death thing has been released by a third party.

 

I could give this "final punishment" thing a shot, but may I suggest an alternative to using papyrus util values?

 

In my humble Opinion, it would be more practical to just have a default modevent sent whenever the player debt is increased. Put the value and maybe the current owner into the event and make sure its only sent when its actually safe for an external mod to take over.

 

with just the papyrusUtil value, i´d have to resort to polling to figure out an entry point, and no one wants that, right?

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, Pamatronic said:

In my humble Opinion, it would be more practical to just have a default modevent sent whenever the player debt is increased. Put the value and maybe the current owner into the event and make sure its only sent when its actually safe for an external mod to take over.

I've already implemented it.

While I could also fire events, I'm not sure there's a need.

Though I wouldn't even need to fire them for all increases, only if there's a threshold set, and then only once it's crossed the threshold.

 

 

But for polling, you don't need to poll every five seconds.

 

Is it impossible to believe the idea of the player crossing that threshold into "extreme punishment" territory is the sort of decision an owner makes over a period of days, not hours, or minutes?

 

So, polling it once per day, or only on sleep, or something similar would be enough polling? Do you think that would add meaningful load?

 

 

Or you could link it to locations where the punishment makes sense, so when the follower enters a cell where you might have some predefined spot for a crucifix or chopping block, and poll in response to the cell change event.

 

The cost of polling StorageUtil is extremely low, and it's a single native call with no Papyrus overhead, so low latency too.

 

But I guess I can do whatever. It will take more time to document than to write.

[bubba999]

8 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

My first guess is that you are wearing clothing or armor while talking to the vendor.

The follower is probably giving you a gentle hint that you should be naked, or in whore armor.

AHH! I'm so stupid!

 

Thanks, gotta run and be embarrassed.

[Pamatronic]

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

Is it impossible to believe the idea of the player crossing that threshold into "extreme punishment" territory is the sort of decision an owner makes over a period of days, not hours, or minutes?

 

So, polling it once per day, or only on sleep, or something similar would be enough polling? Do you think that would add meaningful load?

 

 

Or you could link it to locations where the punishment makes sense, so when the follower enters a cell where you might have some predefined spot for a crucifix or chopping block, and poll in response to the cell change event.

 

Handn´t looked at it from that Angle, but those are good Ideas, that´ll work.

 

In order to avoid utter Carnage, is there a way to detect whether DF is already  running a scene? I know there is a modEvent to disable new Scenes, which is handy, but obviously isn't of much use when there's already something going on.

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, Pamatronic said:

In order to avoid utter Carnage, is there a way to detect whether DF is already  running a scene? I know there is a modEvent to disable new Scenes, which is handy, but obviously isn't of much use when there's already something going on.

 

It calls and handles the dhlp-Suspend/Resume that everyone uses, but erratically, and with zero respect for any other mod.

It rarely checks another mod is running a scene before it does as it likes.

 

Some newer code seems to be wrapped with the Pause code below, which as you can see does not check the prevailing state.

 

 

It also uses the DD libs global flag libs.GlobalEventFlag and libs.IsAnimating(playerref)

 

Function PauseAll()    
    SendModEvent("dhlp-Suspend")
    libs.GlobalEventFlag = False
    Suspend = 1 ; NEVER USE THIS FOR DETECTION MCM DISPLAY ONLY
EndFunction

 

Function ResumeAll()     
    SendModEvent("dhlp-Resume")
    libs.GlobalEventFlag = True    
    Suspend = 0 ; NEVER USE THIS FOR DETECTION MCM DISPLAY ONLY
EndFunction
 

 

And it checks SexLabUtil.IsActorActive(playerref) in some situations.

 

Like most things DF, no two sex functions ever follow the same pattern.

Thanks for bringing this up  now my head is aching and it's another thing that needs cleaning up.

On the plus side, most of the sex is isolated in a couple of files, so it should be possible to make it behave better.

 

 

It's probably best to trust in dhlp-Suspend, SexLabUtil.IsActorActive(playerref), and vanilla InScene().

 

They will not work properly now, but I will fix it ASAP now I've looked at it.

After about a dozen tries, I'll probably get it about right.

[Xuvish]

13 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Probably not.

 

The way you are supposed to dismiss a follower is this:

 

1) Pay off ALL debt choosing the option that says [follower will be dismissable]

You must not have any deals.

You must not still have contract remaining.

You must not be in a game.

You must have sufficient willpower.

 

2) Talk to the follower again and pick "I think it's time for us to part ways."

Follower should be dismissed, both as a DF, and as an actual follower.

 

 

Having to dismiss separately in EFF would imply that you do not have a working DF/EFF integration.

 

 

As you are using EFF, which hasn't changed, and you have difficulty being clear about the concepts involved in mod-conflict resolution, I would guess the problem is your install.

But it would help if others could say they are able to dismiss cleanly in EFF with the latest version.

 

It's working for me in NFF, but I haven't tested EFF this release, so it's completely possible it doesn't work for anyone.

However, that wouldn't be my first explanation for this issue, unless some meaningful number of data points were presented.

 

I think my issue may have been not enough willpower.  I will test that theory out.

[delgathar]

8 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

DF can't do that; it's already pushing the limits of sanity.

 

 

 

This is fair   Like I said, I was just brainstorming.  I realize you are actively developing, but the mod is already rather expansive.  So I completely understand there are limits

[Lupine00]

47 minutes ago, Xuvish said:

I think my issue may have been not enough willpower.  I will test that theory out.

It's possible.

But if you can't fix it, don't worry, I did find something that looked wrong in the code, and while I didn't prove it was causing an issue, it probably is.

It will be fixed in the next release - which won't be too far away. I just need to add the feature to set all the followers ignored, and another similar one to find a follower for you if your old follower died while DF was paused.

[SacredDatura]

14 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

If this repeats, it would be useful to have the log file of it.

I can't reproduce from "deal text was wrong", because ... I tested this, and of course didn't see it ... which doesn't mean it can't happen.

 

I had this very issue during development because a bug caused a re-selection of the deal between announcing it and applying it. Obviously, that bug isn't in the release...

 

Thus, there has to be something special about a game that has this issue. Maybe the user made a certain choice I never considered, or its an updated game with a dialog problem, or the install has become damaged, or who knows? I can't tell just from an issue I have no repro for.

 

However, the log tracks some information about this, so it might help. Failing that, I can produce a debug build that provides a lot more information.

 

But how many people have this issue? Just one? Two? Lots? I can't tell from looking at the forum.

 

I'll keep an eye out for other instances in my current game, but in the meantime here's the papyrus log for that particular instance (had a save from right before I asked for the deal).

 

If this is just a result of updating from 2.12.2 to 2.13.1 midgame, which I did, it's probably not worth expending the effort to fix, imo.

Papyrus.0.log

[Herowynne]

9 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

What can be done, realistically, is to add modular alternatives for most classic deals

 

This is my wish. I would love to have all the stages from the Classic deals available as individually enabled modular deals, and then be able to turn off Classic deals altogether.

 

While we are on wishes... I would love to have all the modular deals individually enabled, without stages 1/2/3 on modular deals. In other words, I would love to simply be able to pick and choose all the different ways that the DF can dominate the player character, and avoid using the deals I don't care for.

[Krashark]

Version 2.13 seems to be having an issue regarding mercenary NPCs that you can hire as a follower. Before starting, I made sure to load DF after NFF, re-run FNIS, then started a new game.

The issue is: When I already have a devious follower and then simply speak to a mercenary (first one was Jenassa in Whiterun), the mercenary automatically becomes the new devious follower, replacing the previous one. This does not happen when I don't have any followers and speak to them.

Speaking with another mercenary (a custom one) after hiring Jenassa also caused him to become automatically the new devious follower, replacing Jenassa. And, later, speaking with Jenassa again, she became my devious follower once again.

Pausing this mod seems to stop temporarily this issue with mercenaries. However, once the mod is unpaused, speaking with any mercenary, at any time, seems to cause him/her to become my new devious follower, replacing the previous one, regardless of debt, with no deals active, and willpower always 8 or above. Also, I was keeping at least 5000 gold in inventory anyway (thanks Loansharks of Skyrim :P)

Non-mercenary followers seems to not have this issue, as far I've checked.

I then decided to revert DF to version 2.12, start another new game, and repeated the same steps again: Hired a generic follower... OK. He became devious... OK. Then, I spoke to Jenassa again, and this time she didn't became a devious follower automatically. The same with other mercenaries: None of them replaced my current devious follower.

I, however, have no idea which change in version 2.13 is causing this issue in the gameplay. Any help/fix would be appreciated. For now, the best I can do is to avoid mercenary followers.

[AWHA]

Using the SE conversion, the "Other Mod Settings" tab in the MCM seems to be broken. It does not show any settings. Can anyone show me what it's supposed to show?

[Xuvish]

7 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

It's possible.

But if you can't fix it, don't worry, I did find something that looked wrong in the code, and while I didn't prove it was causing an issue, it probably is.

It will be fixed in the next release - which won't be too far away. I just need to add the feature to set all the followers ignored, and another similar one to find a follower for you if your old follower died while DF was paused.

 

 

Thanks, and thanks again for all your hard work.

 

I look forward to some of the ideas you had on your future plans page.

[Lupine00]

4 hours ago, Vaccinated Alligator said:

The issue is: When I already have a devious follower and then simply speak to a mercenary (first one was Jenassa in Whiterun), the mercenary automatically becomes the new devious follower, replacing the previous one. This does not happen when I don't have any followers and speak to them.

Speaking with another mercenary (a custom one) after hiring Jenassa also caused him to become automatically the new devious follower, replacing Jenassa. And, later, speaking with Jenassa again, she became my devious follower once again.

I think this must have something to do with an option you're configured in NFF, or an additional feature of your NFF installation, or your NFF is incompatible with the DF code that interfaces to DF, due to updates to NFF.

 

It's not something that DF "does". It doesn't just bind follower recruitment to arbitrary dialogs. So either those dialogs are broken, and have all acquired the hire script, or some other mod is making conversations do something special. The NFF interface/code for DF has not changed. The only things that got changed are dismissal - which had a random race condition in it, and a faction issue that was interfering with hiring vanilla mercenaries generally.

 

In 2.13.1, for follower frameworks, I get the sense that dismissal will always fail now, because the framework-interface code that gates dismissal is checking the quest status before it's been updated. If you don't have a framework, it should be solid. But that wouldn't have any bearing on all dialogs turning into a hiring dialog.

 

DF doesn't even edit hiring dialogs (only dismissal), but NFF does.

 

 

At this point, it needs others to report it, and more data generally. Mod manager, version of NFF, confirmation you aren't in SE or something, etc.

If it's just one person's problem, it's likely an install issue. Need more data, otherwise I spend hours setting up test environments to find issues that aren't there. 

[Herowynne]

1 hour ago, AWHA said:

Using the SE conversion, the "Other Mod Settings" tab in the MCM seems to be broken. It does not show any settings. Can anyone show me what it's supposed to show?

 

I am playing on Skyrim SE and this is what my MCM looks like:

 

Spoiler

 

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, Herowynne said:

I am playing on Skyrim SE and this is what my MCM looks like:

The mysterious number next to NFF is the devious follower count.

 

Also, just noticed that this still uses the annoying "nearest NPC" mechanic for selection. Another thing to change for the release.

[AWHA]

1 hour ago, Herowynne said:

 

I am playing on Skyrim SE and this is what my MCM looks like:

 

  Hide contents

 

Thanks, I guess my install is broken somehow.

[Krashark]

2 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

At this point, it needs others to report it, and more data generally. Mod manager, version of NFF, confirmation you aren't in SE or something, etc.

If it's just one person's problem, it's likely an install issue. Need more data, otherwise I spend hours setting up test environments to find issues that aren't there. 

Thanks for the information. The trouble here was definitely NFF 2.7.6. Tried replacing it by EFF and this dialogue issue is no longer happening. SE version, forgot to mention.

I used AFT before but it had issues with followers during combat (they sometimes started to attack themselves for no reason), that's why i switched to NFF a while back.

Now, I'm replacing NFF by EFF, also because I've just realized that I don't use most of the former's features. The only feature I will really be missing from NFF is the "follower weekly cost" to serve as a steady gold sink. Since DFC already has the debt system, I don't need to worry too much about it, at least in "Devious" gameplays (I have another profile in MO2 focused on dungeon diving that does not use any DD/Sexlab mods at all).

[Lupine00]

2 hours ago, Vaccinated Alligator said:

Now, I'm replacing NFF by EFF

In terms of code quality, EFF is substantially better written than any other framework. Just a lot better engineered.

However, EFF's limitless "secret stash" inventory, which is an over-useful feature is ... overly convenient in a DF or SLS game.

My answer to that is ... don't use it ... just don't touch that option in the wheel.

 

Some people are in love with NFFs extras ... the follower importing is useful for the Sofias and Inigos.

The cash splitting and follower auto-selling is immersive-ish.

 

I thought about putting cash splitting in DF. It's quite simple to do, and SLTR has it.

I decided it's not immersive, and makes little sense in DF. It would wreck gold control, for sure.

 

The point in DF is you pay the follower at certain times, and at other times you carry that cash. Sometimes you cannot pay.

The problem for DF is that you can give the follower cash to hold, then take it back later.

 

SLS makes that risky, so I haven't considered it a priority, but it is tempting to (at least) let the follower auto-pay themselves out of the cash if they are holding it, but only when they do a debt recalculation.

 

Another immersive follower feature would be to have a dialog for the follower to rent rooms, or room for them, and add the cost to your debt. While this might remove a need to gamble, it seems sort of fair, and there could be an overhead too. It would likely sabotage the inn-pricing system in SLS though.

[keitsoru]

Hey, Lupine, I have a request to address something that's bugged me for a good while now. When you start DFC via Simple Slavery, you're given one of fur options or so. Now, to be clear, I understand the reasoning behind the current selection of the pool of followers. They're mercenaries, they have a natural proclivity to greed and not liking being paid what they're owed. However, for those of us more inclined to a female follower, this presents a problem, as only one of the possible results is female; that being Jenassa.

Any chance you would be willing to look in to expanding the pool of potential outcomes, when starting DFC via Simple Slavery? Namely, adding more female options?

[ainamtuollaf]

Hi there,

I am using

DFC 2.12.2

DD 4.3

DCL 8.5

EFF 4-0-2

estXDFF NewRules Community Patch 1.0.1

Submissive Lola Resubmission 2.0.4

 

First, like some other players, I am unable to dismiss a follower.  Choosing "it is time for us to part ways" does nothing.  The dismiss command within EFF also does nothing.  If I pause DFC using its debug MCM command, then I can dismiss the follower as normal.  This is with willpower = 10, zero debt, no deals, and no games.

 

Second, DFC seems to not update if estXDFF NewRules Community Patch 1.0.1 is running.  If I disable NewRules using its MCM option, and reset DFC, then DFC works as normal.  If I enable NewRules, then DFC stops updating (adding new debt, etc.) and also its dialog choices (About my debt and deals...) disappear after a few minutes.

This behavior happens whether DFC or NewRules is earlier in load order.  I had DCL earlier than both in load order for every test.

 

I very much enjoy both NewRules and DFC, so it would be wonderful if you could make them compatible or just tell me how I am screwing up.

 

Thanks very much

 

 

 

[Ursur1major]

1 hour ago, ainamtuollaf said:

Choosing "it is time for us to part ways" does nothing.  The dismiss command within EFF also does nothing.  If I pause DFC using its debug MCM command

The way I've gotten it to work for myself using EFF is to use both dismissal options, first through DFC, then through the EFF wheel, after I've done both they become properly dismissed.

[ainamtuollaf]

5 minutes ago, Ursur1major said:

The way I've gotten it to work for myself using EFF is to use both dismissal options, first through DFC, then through the EFF wheel, after I've done both they become properly dismissed.

That seems to not be the case for me.  I've tried both dismissal methods in what I think is all possible combinations.

 

ainamtuollaf

 

[SacredDatura]

On 2/14/2021 at 4:01 AM, Buridan said:

I think I ran across a minor bug.

 

I had two stages of the ownership deal (the arm+leg cuffs, then the collar). Paid it off, then later in the in-game day (like a few hours and a few cells later) asked for another deal. The follower's response uses the text for stage 3 (the chastity belt), but subsequently gives a random deal that isn't stage 3 of the ownership deal. (I reloaded and tried it a few times. Got the nipple piercing, then the anal plug, then a couple of modular deals.)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I haven't tested this on another character. This is a game that started on 2.12.2, then updated to 2.13.1 midgame. Is this the dialog weirdness you talked about a few pages back?

 

Played a bit more on this same game, took another deal. Got the "I want to extend or double the duration of an existing deal" text, got another random deal. Took another deal right after, same text, different random deal. So it certainly seems like deal dialogs in general got scrambled when I upgraded from 2.12.2 to 2.13.1.

 

To be clear, as before, this isn't a call to action. Just providing an additional data point if anyone else happens to run across the same issue. On SE (nomkaz port), upgraded 2.12.2>2.13.1 midgame. I use NFF.

[Abaddons_Corruption]

I'm a couple pages behind on this thread right now, just wanted to reply to a couple things before I forget.

 

On 2/9/2021 at 7:38 PM, Lupine00 said:

(...)

 

I'd say that the player has sufficient tools at their disposal to "cheat" around these issues, when they occur, which is not too often:

1. you can simply refund yourself the cash if you think it was ridiculously unfair.
2. you can add items via the debug menu - and that's one reason I added that capability.

Yeah I cheat all the time, even an unmodded Skyrim is busted enough that I need the occasional toggle collision command to get unstuck, or toggle wireframe to find an item. One time in Oblivion a knife fell and I could not find because it was completely hidden in a rug, so I'm used to console commands. If I think I got overcharged I'll add gold, if the remove device dialogue isn't working when I think it should I'll use the debug to remove an item then the console to remove about how much gold it would have cost me.

 

Quote

 

Adding "cum dumping" as a modular deal is a practical possibility. There's a good chance it could get done, but I can't promise anything concrete.

Binding and naked are already modular deals, give or take - they are both slightly different from the classic slut versions.

 

There is a limit to it, so it shouldn't break anything seriously. Also, there are ways to avoid it, that are designed in - learn to make use of them if you can.

It's already mapped out for possible replacement with something more like the other voluntary "daily" quota driven deals, but I like the uniqueness of it as it is. I'm not sure.

 

 

I've always found the cum dumping one kinda weird and unpleasant, but that's just me. I can't stop myself from asking questions like "where did she get a bucket of cum? How old is it? 'Cause if it's a couple days old that will not be a good smell." Would be good if I could shut my brain up, but I can't so I'm glad there's options.

 

Quote

 

TBH, death and dismissal of followers during pause is a sketchy area that I want to give more attention to.

You should be required to have an eligible (non ignored) follower to unpause.

 

 

I've never had issues with losing a follower, sometimes my succubus character gets bored of corrupting someone or their level's capped too low and it's time to hold onto their gear for a minute, and then, oh no, where did all these devices come from! Have fun being tied up and helpless in town, I'm gonna adventure with this nice lady. If I want to keep the debt and deals, which I usually do, ("She was really mean to me, maybe you could take over my contract? I'm sure you'll be nice and not take advantage at all") then I just use the debug dialogue to add someone else as my devious follower.

 

Oh, forgot to mention, the solution someone else suggested for when the debug to add follower dialogue is missing worked for me too, where you target them in the console and enter "addfac 5c84d 1."  See, console commands aren't necessarily cheating, sometimes they're just making the game work how it's supposed to.

 

(Quote below from earlier, LL's been uncooperative in trying to format this, mainly because I'm really rusty with forums in general)

Quote

(...)

 

I've invested literal days on the dialogs for armor removal, and rewriting it again, just to support a mod I think is implemented inappropriately is not something that appeals to me.

 

Interesting, thanks for all the info. Fair enough, it seemed like a weird enough conflict that it might be tough to fix, and I see I was right for once. Just thought I'd mention it in case you weren't aware, but I see you're miles ahead of me on the subject.