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8 hours ago, Xiaron said:

did the ability to disable games make it into a release version

No. There's no such feature at this time.

 

While it's easy, I'm not even sure it's solving the right problem.

 

If the Jarl game is playing frequently, the issue is that, not games in general.

Any game repeating is a bit tedious. They should probably be only once per follower, or once per follower per game month or something.

That's actually a lot more work to do, but more useful than just going "Meh, games off."

 

But maybe a games toggle is so easy to do I will just add it. Will see how I go today.

I am doing a lot more testing on EFF integration, and found an issue.

If each framework takes so long, it will be a while before I'm done, though it doesn't help that I lost two days of work by being a dummy.

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On 2/13/2021 at 7:11 PM, Lupine00 said:

If this repeats, it would be useful to have the log file of it.

I can't reproduce from "deal text was wrong", because ... I tested this, and of course didn't see it ... which doesn't mean it can't happen.

 

I had this very issue during development because a bug caused a re-selection of the deal between announcing it and applying it. Obviously, that bug isn't in the release...

 

Thus, there has to be something special about a game that has this issue. Maybe the user made a certain choice I never considered, or its an updated game with a dialog problem, or the install has become damaged, or who knows? I can't tell just from an issue I have no repro for.

 

However, the log tracks some information about this, so it might help. Failing that, I can produce a debug build that provides a lot more information.

 

But how many people have this issue? Just one? Two? Lots? I can't tell from looking at the forum.

I'm playing the SE version and I've been having the same issue where the deal I get is different from the one my follower mentions. I've had this problem ever since I downloaded this mod a few days ago. Sometimes it does give me the right deal, but I usually just get a random one. It's not too much of a problem now that I've turned off the deals I don't like that much, but it still annoys me.

 

I'm not sure what would be special about my game to cause this issue other than my load order being a horrible mess that I've been too lazy to figure out how to properly order.

 

I've attached a papyrus log from a session where all I did was load a save, waste 30 seconds of time, and agree to 2 deals, both of which weren't the deal he originally offered. I hope it helps. 

 

Also, sorry you lost all that work the other day. That must suck. 

 

Papyrus.0.log

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1 hour ago, AoE_Freak said:

I've attached a papyrus log from a session where all I did was load a save, waste 30 seconds of time, and agree to 2 deals, both of which weren't the deal he originally offered. I hope it helps. 

Can you detail what deals you got dialog for, and what the actual deals were?

 

Or if you can't remember, repeat the experiment, but track that information?

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33 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

Can you detail what deals you got dialog for, and what the actual deals were?

 

Or if you can't remember, repeat the experiment, but track that information?

Sure thing! I just redid the experiment, this time getting 5 deals, one after the other.

 

The first deal he asked me to make was the one with the ring, but he instead handed me some cuffs to wear and I got that deal.

For the second one he offered to extend one of my deals, but he instead required that I be naked in or near towns.

For the third, he again offered to extend one of my deals, but instead he made me tell people that I'm a slut whenever he wants.

For the fourth, he again offered to extend one of my deals, and he gave me an amulet to wear as rule 2 of the naked in town deal.

For the fifth, he once again offered to extend a deal, and made me whore myself out to innkeepers a rule 3 of the naked in town deal.

 

He sure did feel like offering to extend deals today. 

Papyrus.0.log

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29 minutes ago, AoE_Freak said:

I just redid the experiment

So, the log matches up to the deals you actually get.

That deal is selected/offered, and then taken.

In the log, it all looks like it's working perfectly.

 

There's no sign of the 'wrong' deals that you see in the dialogs.

 

That probably means the issue is confined to the dialogs.

But it's like the wrong conditions are on the dialogs. I don't think that can really happen due to update because the conditions are in the same record as the text.

 

You didn't mention whether this was a new game or an update?

If it's not a new game, make a new game and try some deals.

 

Do you have Tes5Edit? If you it might be worth investigating the ESP to see if was garbled during conversion...

 

Search for Form XX2AD960 (where XX is the DF index in your LO).

It should be the arm and leg cuffs info.

It should have a condition that the GetVMQuestVariable _DFflowDealController::DealOffering_var value is 21.0

You were offered that deal, and it displayed the ring deal instead.

 

So check the ring deal info too...

That's XX2AD983 and the condition should look the same except the comparison value should be 124.0

 

If either of these is wrong, the SE ESP is corrupt.

 

However, if it's OK, it could still be wrong in your save ... somehow ... but it would be unusual for that to be wrong if it were a new game.

 

One possibility is that it's failing to read the condition property correctly and the scripts *must* be rebuilt using the SE compiler for some reason.

 

 

Either way, I'd say this issue is something your "mod conversion author" is better positioned to deal with than I am, as they might have some idea what can go wrong when doing conversions .... a thing I never do, and know nothing about.

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17 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

You didn't mention whether this was a new game or an update?

I'm pretty sure I started this game shortly after the newest update for this mod was released. 

 

18 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

Do you have Tes5Edit? If you it might be worth investigating the ESP to see if was garbled during conversion...

I'm really new to this Skyrim modding stuff, I've never touched that. I'll try that sometime this weekend though, thanks for the help!

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2 hours ago, Buridan said:

I haven't tested myself if this happens in a new game (have started a new game but not using followers this run).

That would suggest the problem is not with a mangled ESP, or updated games, but with the Conditional processing in SE.

 

It's not even getting a stale value, it's getting random garbage. That makes me think it's looking at some random memory location and not the correct property value.

 

I guess if I'd used a global this wouldn't happen...

For the first time I don't use one. Ironic.

 

I have no intention of going through all those dialogs, and converting them to use globals.

I'd guess there's nearly 100, with the two ways you can get deals.

 

I'm pretty sure Conditionals work generally in SE - DF makes much use of them - so it needs an SE person to tell me why it doesn't work, or to do the conversion correctly.

 

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I have a few suggestions:

 - add a dialog option to ask follower for food when gagged or temporary removal of gag 

 - add dialog option to ask follower to put ring/amulet/circlet on you if your hands are tied (maybe for a fee, depending on willpower). I had a situation where the follower needed rest and I got stripped and locked in an elbow binder. I racked up a lot of debt without any means to equip the amulet I needed to wear and since the follower was tired he wouldn't help me unlock the elbow binder. 

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Here is a preview of 2.13.2

 

Perhaps somebody can try with EFF/NFF/AFT to see how follower recruitment and dismissal are working now.

Vanilla is still slow in this version, but it will be fixed.

I spent a lot of time on it to check that all frameworks were working, but I still have some tests of my own to do.

I haven't tested a change to the magic mittens-gloves yet, also I still need to check some dialog conditions.

 

Remember DF always has to win the conflict ESP or script.

 

I tried with latest NFF, and it was working for me.

 

BUT make sure you don't install NFF vanilla dialog replacements.

 

 

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1 hour ago, blarghxxx said:

have a few suggestions:

 - add a dialog option to ask follower for food when gagged or temporary removal of gag

If you look here: https://www.loverslab.com/blogs/entry/12761-devious-followers-continued-2021-roadmap/

...you can see this was already penciled in to be the next thing I do after releasing these bug fixes.

 

You can work around bound debt issues with console 'equipitem', though the Debug menu already covers devices ... but not the new items.

 

2.13.2 has a feature (as you see noted in the link above) to regulate frequency of punishment debts, so that issue will not be as bad as it was.

 

However, I don't think a bound follower should issue any punishments for deal breaches, but should have their lives set to 0.

That's something I can probably fix, maybe in 2.13.2.

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4 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Here is a preview of 2.13.2

 

Perhaps somebody can try with EFF/NFF/AFT to see how follower recruitment and dismissal are working now.

Vanilla is still slow in this version, but it will be fixed.

I spent a lot of time on it to check that all frameworks were working, but I still have some tests of my own to do.

I haven't tested a change to the magic mittens-gloves yet, also I still need to check some dialog conditions.

 

Remember DF always has to win the conflict ESP or script.

 

I tried with latest NFF, and it was working for me.

 

BUT make sure you don't install NFF vanilla dialog replacements.

 

Devious Followers 2.13.2 - 20210221-0.7z 11.92 MB · 1 download

Testing with EFF, so far so good. Only bit that tripped me up was being unable to pay off debt with less than 100 gold in inventory even if the money that was equal to the debt was present. Never actually tried that before so I'm not sure if it's a new thing or not.

 

Question about phrasing. For SS, the option to set an NPC as a slaver, does that make them the only option for the DFC outcome or one of however many you set the flag for?

 

Edit: Seeing some missing text in the help page for dismissing followers.

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6 hours ago, Xiaron said:

unable to pay off debt with less than 100 gold in inventory even if the money that was equal to the debt was present

This works for me, and hasn't been changed in any way.

You should have an option "[Clear Debt]".

The only bug I could see making this not show up would likely block all the main follower dialogs.

 

Can you provide more information?

 

Debt value

Cash held

Quest stage

Willpower

 

Whether you're in gold control is obviously relevant, but I'll assume you aren't.

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1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

This works for me, and hasn't been changed in any way.

You should have an option "[Clear Debt]".

The only bug I could see making this not show up would likely block all the main follower dialogs.

 

Can you provide more information?

 

Debt value

Cash held

Quest stage

Willpower

 

Whether you're in gold control is obviously relevant, but I'll assume you aren't.

Sure. Debt value was 73, gold carried was 85. I don't remember willpower but I'll have to reconstruct the issue for quest stage anyway, so which quest stage are you looking for?

 

And no, I wasn't in gold control. The message I kept getting was how was I going to pay the DF, since I was broke. If I sold items to get over 100 gold, paying the DF went fine minutes later.

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16 minutes ago, Xiaron said:

which quest stage

It was probably 10, but what if it wasn't?

I can't be quite sure unless you can.

What if the cause was a quest stage stuck on 98?

Many, many dialogs have been incorrectly conditioned to test for stages >= 10 && < 100 when it should be < 98

Too many to easily fix. But as the PC is rarely ever on quest stage 98 or 99, most people will never encounter an issue with it.

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2 hours ago, Xiaron said:

Debt value was 73, gold carried was 85

Found it.

As suspected, it was a deliberate attempt to stop you paying anything with < 100 gold held.

There are some other debt-payment dialog design intents that might sometime puzzle players, but this one is definitely broken.

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12 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

If you look here: https://www.loverslab.com/blogs/entry/12761-devious-followers-continued-2021-roadmap/

...you can see this was already penciled in to be the next thing I do after releasing these bug fixes.
 

You can work around bound debt issues with console 'equipitem', though the Debug menu already covers devices ... but not the new items.
 

2.13.2 has a feature (as you see noted in the link above) to regulate frequency of punishment debts, so that issue will not be as bad as it was.

 

 

I'm so sorry, I've even read that post a while back and didn't remember. And I also know the debug menu, but have only used the remove function so far (because some mods sometimes don't stick to their own rules when equipping items. Also this new time lock feature sometimes is too much for me). Shame on me!
Your roadmap looks awesome, by the way!
 

12 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

However, I don't think a bound follower should issue any punishments for deal breaches, but should have their lives set to 0.

That's something I can probably fix, maybe in 2.13.2.

 

Just to be clear: My follower wasn't tied up, his lives were at 0 and he just couldn't be bothered anymore to help me. It would have even been fun, if the frequency adjustements had already been in place.

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20 minutes ago, blarghxxx said:

My follower wasn't tied up, his lives were at 0 and he just couldn't be bothered anymore to help me.

That one is tricky.

Sure, followers on zero lives could not punish, but that would be defeating the main point of the lives mechanic.

In 2.13.2 they punish at a more tolerable frequency, though it will likely soon have you in huge debt anyway, at least you have time to think about whether you want to use a cheat or something to stop it, or actually use a dialog that might help.

 

There are a few specific cases where a follower will fix bondage items for you, but it's largely not implemented.

In most cases, I added a mechanic so if you're in heavy bondage you won't get in trouble for not wearing something.

That's probably something I should deal with one way or another.

 

Some sort of dialog to make you "deal compliant" would make sense.

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I think just having more time between punishments would have been enough. I don't use very harsh escape settings and usually manage to get free relatively soon, but he kept adding debt very quickly.  But these situations don't happen that often, so I'm actually OK with cheating me some gold afterwards to mitigate this. But I'm definately looking forward to the frequency adjustment. Some form of escalation system would also be nice but probably a lot of work. It could go like this:

- You're not wearing that amulet I gave you; put it on or there will be consequences  - adds some debt

- after time x of not complying: You're still not wearing that amulet, Here let me put it on you - forfecully equips the amulet and adds more debt

- after removing the item and another time x: Why did you remove that amulet? Let me fix that - equips amulet, binds hands, adds more debt

But for this to feel right you probably would need a seperate escalation for each deal which might make it too much of a hassle

The second step would also mitigate the issue I've had with just 2x debt

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52 minutes ago, blarghxxx said:

It could go like this:

That would be nice, but DF is thing where as a developer every rock you look under, you find crazy yellow ants rush out and start attacking your face.

 

Deals weren't build as modular quests that could easily encapsulate easily managed text trees or much internal state.

Sure, you could do escalations for one or two deals, but not for all of them.

 

The things on the roadmap are based around the feasible, and the improved household management might not be practical - I'll see how it goes.

 

I'm not a fan of making DF fit devices very often, certainly not as a general way for dealing with non-compliance.

DF gives debt to make you comply.

If you don't comply you get a lot of debt.

Which leads to forced deals, gold control, or enslavement, or chains of debt (which are force added).

 

Some players see non-compliance as a failure of the mod, but sometimes it's due to a decision they took, and the follower is simply exploiting it unfairly.

 

Did you open that ancient urn and get bound in an armbinder after being stripped of your circlet?

 

Maybe don't go opening ancient urns while as horny as a cane toad?

Especially not when your follower is already very grumpy.

 

But that raises quality of life issues - polish, polish, polish - maybe those items should at least be pre-flagged NO STRIP for SexLab?

 

And if the follower is adding punishment debt every few seconds, it feels ridiculous.

In terms of game-play, adding increasing back-off on sequential punishments would help create a sense that there was some fairness in it.

That's not terribly hard to do, but I guess we should see how it works out with the current changes.

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2.13.2 is up, and hopefully no obvious oversights.

 

I spent a lot of time testing both regular followers and hirelings in EFF and NFF, and some time testing them in AFT.

I think they all work reliably now, and vanilla should be fine too.

Follower recognition (time to speak 'the words') is substantially reduced, and shouldn't ever be more than 20 seconds. It can sometimes be instant.

 

One details I missed in the change-list notes is that if you're enslaved, and wearing the boots that force you to crawl, if you draw your weapon (which makes you stand) outside of combat, you will suffer slow health damage that can potentially kill you. So make sure you get back on your knees quickly once combat is over. I did not like how being in weapons-drawn stance subverted the intent of the crawling and made it look like you were walking around on those crazy boots all the time. I'm quite happy with how it works now, and there is a great sensation of oppression from really being forced to crawl everywhere except dungeons.

 

Also fixed debt payment for clearing debts less than 100 gold when you have less than 100 gold in hand.

 

As usual, please report bugs ... and provide details, as many details as possible.

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21 minutes ago, deviant51 said:

I switched follower and clicked reset and repair follower. but that didn't fix it.

Repair follower really just fixes follower aliases and factions and things.

Reset might have fixed it, but clearly didn't.

 

 

That's rather strange. I've not seen such a behavior. Seeing something so random ... I don't think it's a good sign for your game.

You're not running on ... SE ... by any chance?

 

Try this in the console:

Spoiler

setpqv _DFlowModDealController VPRule 1

 

You didn't say if your stats page also shows the deal allocated?

If it does, you will need to take additional action.

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12 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Found it.

As suspected, it was a deliberate attempt to stop you paying anything with < 100 gold held.

There are some other debt-payment dialog design intents that might sometime puzzle players, but this one is definitely broken.

Awesome. Still want me to go back and find the quest stage or was that the whole issue?

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