Devious Followers - Continued

[Xuvish]

13 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

 

DF should be allowed to win both. DF contains modifications to EFF scripts, and if EFF wins, those are lost.

From your LO docs I can see that DF is loaded after EFF, which is correct.

 

Your LO is correct ... for EFF with respect to DF anyway; it's the scripts that are wrong.

 

You can move DF below EFF in the left pane any time, it won't break anything. It will simply fix this issue.

 

As it is, both hiring, and dismissal of followers will not happen correctly for you.

Hiring might seem OK, but it is not, and DF's internal tracking of what followers you have will be incorrect.

 

 

I don't care what LOOT has to say. People put too much trust in that thing.

It knows practically nothing useful about LL mods, and routinely mis-orders them.

I haven't used it in a long time.

 

How do you change the scripts?  What extension are they?  Where are they located?

 

Not sure if I have ever changed any scripts before.

[Lupine00]

34 minutes ago, Xuvish said:

How do you change the scripts?  What extension are they?  Where are they located?

 

Not sure if I have ever changed any scripts before.

I don't understand your question.

 

You don't need to change any scripts. The correct scripts are already in DF.

Move DF below EFF in the left pane.

Fixed.

[KLongad Sirtup]

3 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

I don't understand your question.

 

You don't need to change any scripts. The correct scripts are already in DF.

Move DF below EFF in the left pane.

Fixed.

 

Alternatively in Vortex mod manager establish some rules for DF plugin to always be sorted after "EFFCore.esm" and "EFFDialogue.esp". Finally re-sort all of the plugins and Vortex will through LOOT API sort the plugin for DF to below EFF mod files.

[Lupine00]

4 minutes ago, KLongad Sirtup said:

Alternatively in Vortex mod manager establish some rules for DF plugin to always be sorted after "EFFCore.esm" and "EFFDialogue.esp". Finally re-sort all of the plugins and Vortex will through LOOT API sort the plugin for DF to below EFF mod file

Does that also manage file overwrites? Or just ESPs?

[KLongad Sirtup]

11 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

Does that also manage file overwrites? Or just ESPs?

 

It has a separate section where mods are listed to create rules for which mod overwrites the other which is established deploying mods under one of its profiles. But it can also do this on a per file level across conflicting mods.

 

The plugin rules are for sorting plugins and deployment rules handle file overwrites. I have been using Vortex mod manager for a very long time, for a while I tried to use MO 1.0, however its setup was very complicated and time consuming. Before MO 1.0 I was on Nexus Mod Manager and now however are using Vortex mod manager.

 

I will extremely unlikely be moving to another mod manager due to the extensive customisation and extending possibilities present in Vortex!!

[DayTri]

In _DF_notes.txt it says "Debt = -1 triggers spider game". What is the spider game? I searched this topic for "Spider" but couldn't find any info

[Lupine00]

3 minutes ago, KLongad Sirtup said:

It has a separate section where mods are listed to create rules for which mod overwrites the other which is established deploying mods under one of its profiles. But it can also do this on a per file level across conflicting mods.

That would also need to be done for Vortex then. The problem Xuvish has is overwrites, not ESP order; his plugin load order is OK already.

 

At least, that's what I think. It's hard to be sure without a screen shot of the pertinent part of the left pane.

[Lupine00]

9 minutes ago, DayTri said:

In _DF_notes.txt it says "Debt = -1 triggers spider game". What is the spider game? I searched this topic for "Spider" but couldn't find any info

It's not the sort of spider you're thinking of. Follower says something like "There's a spider on your head, I'll just get it off."

Then they stick a device on you.

 

_DF_notes are just my own junk; some of those things don't even mean what they say they do; I just know what it is.

You can't have debt of -1 for example. It referred to a hack done to prevent the dialog ever firing. The todo and want to do items are pretty stale too; don't consider them more accurate than the blog.

[Xuvish]

2 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I don't understand your question.

 

You don't need to change any scripts. The correct scripts are already in DF.

Move DF below EFF in the left pane.

Fixed.

 

Yes, that is what I meant.

 

I had EFF in position 15 and DF in position 75 and I was not able to dismiss my follower through normal dialogue.

 

I had to do it through the command follower option in the wheel from EFF.  Is that the way to dismiss, or can it be done through normal dialogue?

 

Does it matter that I installed DF on an existing clean game instead of starting a new game?

 

Thanks for your help.

[Buridan]

I think I ran across a minor bug.

 

I had two stages of the ownership deal (the arm+leg cuffs, then the collar). Paid it off, then later in the in-game day (like a few hours and a few cells later) asked for another deal. The follower's response uses the text for stage 3 (the chastity belt), but subsequently gives a random deal that isn't stage 3 of the ownership deal. (I reloaded and tried it a few times. Got the nipple piercing, then the anal plug, then a couple of modular deals.)

 

Spoiler

 

I haven't tested this on another character. This is a game that started on 2.12.2, then updated to 2.13.1 midgame. Is this the dialog weirdness you talked about a few pages back?

[bubba999]

In the piercing deal.... does the follower ever stop and let me talk to people again? Selling this loot benefits her too, you know!

[Ryu Gabriev]

Had a suggestion for this mod, if such things be tolerated:

 

With so many deals available, and yet having them randomized, leads me to wanting a selection possibility for the MCM. Basically, I think it would be good to have the option to disable certain deals that aren't to your liking so as to improve the possibility of whatever humiliation you'd like your character to endure being what you get to see.

Just a suggestion.

[Lupine00]

2 hours ago, Ryu Gabriev said:

With so many deals available, and yet having them randomized, leads me to wanting a selection possibility for the MCM. Basically, I think it would be good to have the option to disable certain deals that aren't to your liking so as to improve the possibility of whatever humiliation you'd like your character to endure being what you get to see.

That's already a feature. There are two MCM pages for it.

 

The way that classic deals are controlled is limiting, but matches how classic deals actually work, so it wouldn't make any sense to control them differently.

[Lupine00]

5 hours ago, Buridan said:

I had two stages of the ownership deal (the arm+leg cuffs, then the collar). Paid it off, then later in the in-game day (like a few hours and a few cells later) asked for another deal. The follower's response uses the text for stage 3 (the chastity belt), but subsequently gives a random deal that isn't stage 3 of the ownership deal. (I reloaded and tried it a few times. Got the nipple piercing, then the anal plug, then a couple of modular deals.)

If this repeats, it would be useful to have the log file of it.

I can't reproduce from "deal text was wrong", because ... I tested this, and of course didn't see it ... which doesn't mean it can't happen.

 

I had this very issue during development because a bug caused a re-selection of the deal between announcing it and applying it. Obviously, that bug isn't in the release...

 

Thus, there has to be something special about a game that has this issue. Maybe the user made a certain choice I never considered, or its an updated game with a dialog problem, or the install has become damaged, or who knows? I can't tell just from an issue I have no repro for.

 

However, the log tracks some information about this, so it might help. Failing that, I can produce a debug build that provides a lot more information.

 

But how many people have this issue? Just one? Two? Lots? I can't tell from looking at the forum.

[Lupine00]

3 hours ago, bubba999 said:

In the piercing deal.... does the follower ever stop and let me talk to people again? Selling this loot benefits her too, you know!

Please elaborate?

 

As I don't know what the problem you're alluding to here is, or what deal stage you're on, or what you're trying to do, or if it's really even a piercing deal issue, I can't even attempt a reproduction of a bug, let alone fix one.

 

That deal hasn't had any changes I'm aware of, but it could be due to dialog orders being rearranged or something, whatever "it" is.

[bubba999]

4 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

Please elaborate?

 

As I don't know what the problem you're alluding to here is, or what deal stage you're on, or what you're trying to do, or if it's really even a piercing deal issue, I can't even attempt a reproduction of a bug, let alone fix one.

 

That deal hasn't had any changes I'm aware of, but it could be due to dialog orders being rearranged or something, whatever "it" is.

Well, at stage three, every time I try to talk to vendor, I get zapped. This has been going on over 24 hours game time. I can pause the mod and sell stuff but that takes away from the immersion.

[Lupine00]

5 hours ago, Xuvish said:

Does it matter that I installed DF on an existing clean game instead of starting a new game?

Probably not.

 

5 hours ago, Xuvish said:

I had to do it through the command follower option in the wheel from EFF.  Is that the way to dismiss, or can it be done through normal dialogue?

The way you are supposed to dismiss a follower is this:

 

1) Pay off ALL debt choosing the option that says [follower will be dismissable]

You must not have any deals.

You must not still have contract remaining.

You must not be in a game.

You must have sufficient willpower.

 

2) Talk to the follower again and pick "I think it's time for us to part ways."

Follower should be dismissed, both as a DF, and as an actual follower.

 

 

Having to dismiss separately in EFF would imply that you do not have a working DF/EFF integration.

 

 

As you are using EFF, which hasn't changed, and you have difficulty being clear about the concepts involved in mod-conflict resolution, I would guess the problem is your install.

But it would help if others could say they are able to dismiss cleanly in EFF with the latest version.

 

It's working for me in NFF, but I haven't tested EFF this release, so it's completely possible it doesn't work for anyone.

However, that wouldn't be my first explanation for this issue, unless some meaningful number of data points were presented.

[Lupine00]

56 minutes ago, bubba999 said:

Well, at stage three, every time I try to talk to vendor, I get zapped. This has been going on over 24 hours game time. I can pause the mod and sell stuff but that takes away from the immersion.

And what are the dialog lines that occur?

What are you wearing?

What other deals do you have?

 

There are multiple paths through this. You can't assume I know what you did, or what you saw, or how your character is equipped.

 

There are legitimate reasons to be constantly zapped.

Perhaps the conditions for one are wrong?

Or perhaps they are working exactly as intended and you're just breaking the rules.

 

My first guess is that you are wearing clothing or armor while talking to the vendor.

The follower is probably giving you a gentle hint that you should be naked, or in whore armor.

[Herowynne]

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

But how many people have this issue? Just one? Two? Lots? I can't tell from looking at the forum.

 

I have seen this behavior also, but I did not report it, because I assumed that it was due to upgrading from 2.12.2 to 2.13.1 on an existing save, which you told us not to do.

[Herowynne]

57 minutes ago, bubba999 said:

Well, at stage three, every time I try to talk to vendor, I get zapped.

 

 If you have the Piercings deal, but are not wearing piercings, then you will get zapped when you try to talk to any NPC, and you will need to wear piercings in order to be able to talk.

[delgathar]

I don't think the follower really wants you to make a profit.

[Lupine00]

5 minutes ago, Herowynne said:

I have seen this behavior also, but I did not report it, because I assumed that it was due to upgrading from 2.12.2 to 2.13.1 on an existing save, which you told us not to do.

Maybe possible, but probably not.

 

I think I see the problem. The function that tells the framework whether it is allowed to dismiss is saying no at the time of check, but will pass later.

 

I'll confirm it's working for 2.13.2

[Lupine00]

1 minute ago, delgathar said:

I don't think the follower really wants you to make a profit.

That was always been an issue. Do they? Don't they? They seem conflicted.

 

It's the sort of thing that SLTR would have a tick box for "Follower wants to make a profit" ... mouse-over reads "Changes the style of the follower behavior. Profit making followers will be more inclined not to interfere in the money making process. Non-profit followers are more interested in enslaving you for sex."

 

Perhaps the existing ambiguity is an acceptable alternative?

[delgathar]

2 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

That was always been an issue. Do they? Don't they? They seem conflicted.

 

It's the sort of thing that SLTR would have a tick box for "Follower wants to make a profit" ... mouse-over reads "Changes the style of the follower behavior. Profit making followers will be more inclined not to interfere in the money making process. Non-profit followers are more interested in enslaving you for sex."

 

Perhaps the existing ambiguity is an acceptable alternative?

 

I like the ambiguity.  If anything.  For replay it would be interesting to have a secret value that is randomized the first time a follower is added.  Follower just uses the penalties to motivate you to be a better adventurer and bring more gold, or Follower really is just using this all in a attempt to eventually enslave you.  Or maybe even a third option.  Tune in next week to find out more.  On some playthroughs maybe the follower is more into humiliating the player, on others, sell the player, other followers might be more into whoring the player.

 

I'm the type that would lay off the check boxes and play enjoy the difference.  But sometimes I might just want a spicy play through, or maybe I want the downward spiral into ultimate unplayability regarding the main story and because there are too many layers of penalties.

 

Just thoughts.  I love that you are actively developing, but I'm just brainstorming here, not really trying to add to your plate.

 

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, delgathar said:

For replay it would be interesting to have a secret value that is randomized the first time a follower is added.

This was a strong "want to have" last year, but I am trying to be more realistic.

 

SLTR can have its nice dialog options because the dialogs are not a sprawling mass of spaghetti, scattered unpredictably across quests, and with a dozen conditions on each one.

DF can't do that; it's already pushing the limits of sanity.

 

What can be done, realistically, is to add modular alternatives for most classic deals, and then drive how those are given out depending on some follower "personality".

There are really only a couple of things missing from modular deals, and while they won't be quite as nice as the classics, they can be improved incrementally if time or enthusiasm ever allows.

 

Whenever I open up DF, I inevitably bump up against a mass of incredibly non-DRY code and quests and stuff in the CK, and I cannot look anywhere without finding something that is a potential problem. It's like dusting a haystack. It makes the smallest change a fatiguing and demoralizing experience.

 

Today I went to make a little change to follower ignore mechanics, and bumped into so much stuff in enslavements, and pause, and the sold quest, that were at best "mostly harmless".

And now there's a huge test load because all that was changed, and it ate my entire day just working on more old bugs, and often unsure if I'm adding or removing from the total, because the correct behavior in some areas is so ill-defined. I've sort of finished the new ignore feature, which is much easier to use than the old one, and lets you un-ignore followers.

 

There gets to be a point where you have to stop or you'll go crazy. I want this 2.13.2 done, and then I'm only going to address bug reports for a while, and move on to make SLAX fit for release. Assuming that can be done, I can use the SLAX code to fix the scanner in DF, which will solve so many robustness issues.