Devious Followers - Continued

[Anunya]

13 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

If you do an SD+ surrender at that point, you will be enslaved, and so will the follower.

They will still be a DF though. At that point you pause them.

 

SD+ will then play out, either you are released, or sold, or killed, or escape.

SD+ creature enslavement is super-dull though, and is sometimes impossible to leave because nothing will kill the owner for you.

 

If you have a defeat mod that puts you into SS, your DF should be removed and DF can auto pause at that point.

What happens after will depend on your SS outcome.

 

Yeah that all makes sense. I think I'll just have to get used seeing my former DF master around randomly afterwards, which I guess can be handled by a bit of RP. It's really someone else. It's not like they'll actually remember the PC.

 

I haven't had SD+ in my load order recently, but I'm considering adding it back in the next go around.

 

13 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

 

DF will also work as an SS outcome, and you can configure how that will be done, but actual DF slavery is quite harsh, can sometimes become bugged (save often), and is likely less featureful than where SubLola is now.

 

I haven't actually played with DF slavery very much, so that's useful to know.

 

 

13 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

 

My thought is that DF should have an option to use SubLola slavery instead of its own, or at least the deviously modified version of it, as an option - and handle the debt situation and slavery end conditions cleanly. I don't see that happening in a hurry, as I have to get much more familiar with what the new SubLola is doing first.

 

That would be a great integration. It worked fine for me to turn SubLola on at a narratively appropriate moment, but having it handled by DFC would work really well. SubLola slavery is definitely a great extension of the DFC path, IMO.

 

 

13 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

 

If I do that, supporting SD+ would likely also be a possibility, in the same way, and SD+ is probably better in some respects, because it actually has a lot of configurability and interoperation hooks hidden away that nobody uses (so they may well be buggy, but are worth a shot).

 

Sounds intriguing.

 

I liked SD+ because of the various slavery starts it enabled (so you can start for absolute), but like you I've found the actual slavery part of it a bit dull. Only thing to do is basically run away after 5 minutes and eat any penalties whatever they are.

 

13 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

 

There aren't really any other slavery mods that are much good for a player. At least in LE. I don't keep much on an eye on what's happening with SE. There's PetProject, but it's not exactly slavery, and of course there's CD, but officially, nobody has that any more. Other, sketchy options are Wolf Club, and Treasure Hunter Whore. At the extreme end, there's Trapped in Rubber, but it's not very DD compatible, probably isn't working well in SE, goes on a long time, and has a slightly incompatible start and premise. Fishburger's Sex Slaves also has a sort of PC slavery option, but it's more of a story quest, and much milder than DF or SubLola. Other than a lot of sex and the odd spank/beating, you'd be hard put to discern any consequences. DCL used to have some slavery, which was pretty strict and quickly got boring, but that's basically stripped out now. The replacement is just random chaos and feels very tiresome, but there are some mods to make it a bit better. The main appeal of DCL (for you) would be that it has quest stories and adventures with ready made plots and characters - this could be a big negative in some respects, so it's all subjective.

 

Yeah tastes differ, no doubt about it. DCL is definitely on the "check out and futz around with some time" list for me. As for SSE and slavery, I think the options are basically SD+, DFC, and SubLola... and, maybe, as you suggest DCL.

 

13 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

 

Also, the DF weird potion might be an interesting plot element in your story. The potion giver doesn't have to be the follower, and can be any potential follower. You don't need to have them in your party, though it's convenient if you do. It depends how you configure it.

 

I'm super intrigued but also apprehensive. I have no idea what the potion does! I don't necessarily want to know at this point either, but I do understand it's irreversible so it's going to be a big jump... which is what makes it intriguing... heh. When I do take the plunge, however, I'd probably want to know what it does fairly quickly. I don't have a super high threshold for "what's going on? Is this behaviour intended or bug? What are my options, I have no idea?"

 

For Maer, right now, I'm kind of at a point where I think I need to add/ activate some other element in my load order to move forward but it's pulling me into futzing around with mods and settings and away from actual gameplay.

[Baltasarr80]

Devious framework would be nice when it would work good as a intermediary between the different slavery mods... even alone it has some nice parts but ... it doesnt feel coherent in it self ...

[Pinute]

Sorry if this question has been asked already but trying to sift through your mod's support thread is hard because you're good at your job. You have too many users

 

The release notes for 2.13.1 say a new game is necessary for the gold fix. I have DFC in my load order but it's been disabled ever since the alternate start cell (I want this to be a very long playthrough so I'm layering in things slowly). Would this be considered a 'new game' for that mod event fix and if not, would a save cleaned of DFC be needed, or even work?

[KLongad Sirtup]

@Anunya Have you tried mixing this with Legacy of the Dragonborn modification (something akin to Sydney in "Relic Hunter" television series, in particular the episode where she was enslaved at least for a while)?

[Anunya]

6 minutes ago, KLongad Sirtup said:

@Anunya Have you tried mixing this with Legacy of the Dragonborn modification (something akin to Sydney in "Relic Hunter" television series, in particular the episode where she was enslaved at least for a while)?

 

I haven't. That sounds like it'd be fun, but I feel like I should do a regular playthrough before I do something that changes the main questline. So far, I've never gotten beyond the first visit to the Greybeards

[KLongad Sirtup]

7 minutes ago, Anunya said:

 

I haven't. That sounds like it'd be fun, but I feel like I should do a regular playthrough before I do something that changes the main questline. So far, I've never gotten beyond the first visit to the Greybeards

 

Maybe you could request a mod which utilises the mod events from Devious Followers - Continued and the patching kit for Legacy of the Dragonborn so the two are well integrated. You may even get one of the mod authors on here to commission just such a mod via their Patreon as some can accept commissioned mods.

[KLongad Sirtup]

@Lupine00 Is it possible via a read-only property (or via a mod event) to expose  (to other mods) the number of times the enslaved player character has been punished? I'm thinking of suggesting or commissioning on Patreon for Pamatronic to provide, an execution based punishment mod for Devious Followers - Continued.

[Lupine00]

5 hours ago, PInute said:

The release notes for 2.13.1 say a new game is necessary for the gold fix. I have DFC in my load order but it's been disabled ever since the alternate start cell (I want this to be a very long playthrough so I'm layering in things slowly). Would this be considered a 'new game' for that mod event fix and if not, would a save cleaned of DFC be needed, or even work?

If you had an old ESP but you've never loaded that ESP, Skyrim's never seen it.

So, if you load a new ESP, that's effectively the first install of the mod.

 

If that's your situation, and you effectively haven't used DFC up until now, you have no reasons to start a new game.

 

The gold control bug is very minor, and I don't believe SLS exercises it. It simply means that if a mod gives you a DF via modevent, and sets the flag for you to be forced into gold control with that follower, you won't be put in gold control after all. It, in itself, is not a strong reason to start a new game.

 

AFAIK SLS is the only mod using this event, and it I don't think it sets that flag, so it ought to impact nobody. Probably. Even if SLS was trying to use it, it's not exactly a game breaker.

 

But if you have missing dialogs - and any veteran user will know - then you will need a new game or clean save.

 

Whether you really need a new game because of the deal dialogs that were reordered, I'm not sure, as I haven't been able to get conclusive test results. Some updated games I tried seemed to work fine. Others seemed to have some missing dialog options. Tests were in the same install. Skyrim dialogs have always been a bit sketchy around changes rather than pure additions, and even additions usually seem to need you to load them, save then reload. Sometimes I change conditions and they update fine, other times it's as if you can only add them. When you look at the records, it's inexplicable, it should either work, or be baked in and never work. Maybe someone can explain why it's not consistent?

[Xuvish]

Conflict report for LE version of Skyrim.

 

I noticed a conflict with Extensible Follower Framework (EFF).  

 

After I paid off all my deals and chose the option to pay off debt to make follower dismissable, the follower would not leave.

 

Fortunately, I was able to use the command wheel from EFF and dismiss my follower that way.

 

I use the most recent version of EFF which I believe is still 4.02.

 

[bubba999]

A small issue. My girl has to offer sex to her DF once a day. This worked the first time but the choice did not come up again! The time question was there but not the offer sex one.

 

Update: I think it might be a timing issue. It did show up again. I use timescale 15.

[Lupine00]

8 hours ago, bubba999 said:

A small issue. My girl has to offer sex to her DF once a day. This worked the first time but the choice did not come up again! The time question was there but not the offer sex one.

This uses gametime, so is tied to game days.

The question should not disappear after you have used it.

You can continue to offer sex and it will be refused if you do it too often.

You probably can't use it if you are in full chastity. That's about the only time it should disappear.

Were you eventually punished for not offering sex?

 

The time question should also never disappear, you can always ask about time if you have a relevant deal.

 

What about other deals where you have to offer?

[Lupine00]

8 hours ago, Xuvish said:

Conflict report for LE version of Skyrim.

 

I noticed a conflict with Extensible Follower Framework (EFF).  

 

After I paid off all my deals and chose the option to pay off debt to make follower dismissable, the follower would not leave.

 

Fortunately, I was able to use the command wheel from EFF and dismiss my follower that way.

Are you sure that DF was allowed to overwrite EFF in the installation?

 

Can anyone else confirm this issue?

 

It will take some effort to test, as I will have to make a new game with EFF in it, so I won't be able to check it immediately.

[bubba999]

31 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

This uses gametime, so is tied to game days.

The question should not disappear after you have used it.

You can continue to offer sex and it will be refused if you do it too often.

You probably can't use it if you are in full chastity. That's about the only time it should disappear.

Were you eventually punished for not offering sex?

 

The time question should also never disappear, you can always ask about time if you have a relevant deal.

 

What about other deals where you have to offer?

Ah, the question did disappear after offering. No chastity devices worn. The punishment for missing the offer one time was additional gold owed. Have not tried other offer deals yet.

[Xuvish]

6 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Are you sure that DF was allowed to overwrite EFF in the installation?

 

Can anyone else confirm this issue?

 

It will take some effort to test, as I will have to make a new game with EFF in it, so I won't be able to check it immediately.

 

EFF is not being overwritten by DF.

 

I have EFF higher in my load order on both left and right side of MO2.

 

Should DF be higher than EFF?

 

How do I get DF to overwrite EFF?

 

Should it be the DF 2.13.1 file that overwrites, or the ESP with cleaned masters?  I have both files installed.

 

 

[Lupine00]

7 hours ago, Xuvish said:

EFF is not being overwritten by DF.

 

I have EFF higher in my load order on both left and right side of MO2.

 

Should DF be higher than EFF?

 

How do I get DF to overwrite EFF?

 

Should it be the DF 2.13.1 file that overwrites, or the ESP with cleaned masters?  I have both files installed.

DF must overwrite EFF, as written in the install documentation on the mod front page.

 

That means, in MO LEFT pane, DF must be further down the list - closer to the bottom.

In the right pane, where you have plugin order, DF must also be further down the list - closer to the bottom, and with a higher priority value than EFF.

 

If you have any merge patch that involves DF and EFF, DF must be the winner.

 

There actually shouldn't be any ESP clash, but there is necessity to ever load EFF after DF, so it's safer to ensure that DF has priority.

 

DF contains explicit overwrites of EFF scripts, and there are essential for the integration to work.

 

 

Another sign of a mis-installed EFF, is if hiring a second follower does not lead to them being counted by DF.

[DayTri]

There is a stack dump from this mod that is annoying me when checking my papyrus log. I don't know how serious we think stack dumps are these days, opinions seem to range from not a problem to game destabilizing.

 

Anyway it happens in function They in dflowMCM.

 

ERROR: alias Follower on quest _DflowMCM (4A00C545): Cannot force the alias's reference to a None reference.

 

It would be easy to fix by adding a conditional check to make sure the Follower reference is not None.

 

Something like:

 

Function They()
    
	if Follower.GetActorReference() is not None
		MCMFollower.ForceRefTo(Follower.GetActorReference())
	endif
EndFunction

 

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, DayTri said:

There is a stack dump from this mod that is annoying me when checking my papyrus log. I don't know how serious we think stack dumps are these days, opinions seem to range from not a problem to game destabilizing.

 

"I don't know how serious we think stack dumps are these days."

 

If we're talking about the kind of "dump" this code produces, it's inconsequential and benign.

It's just a helpful warning that contains some trace info in the log.

 

Most people have many mods spewing messages like this on a frequent basis - USLEEP for example - but it has no negative impact other than larger log files with more noise in them.

 

 

It's not the same as a serious issue that people also confusingly call "stack dumps" in Papyrus.

The non-benign case is when your stack is not dumped, but suspended because it overran the memory allowed for a Papyrus stack.

The latter is a serious issue, because every associated script that was using that stack is killed, whether they were to blame for bloating it or not, and the stack is never released and sits in the save taking up space.

In contrast, traces in your log are usually benign spam - which this is.

 

 

Thanks for the reporting the issue, but the correct fix would look like this:

 

Spoiler

Function They()
    Actor who = Follower.GetActorReference()
    If who
        MCMFollower.ForceRefTo(who)
    Else
        MCMFollower.Clear()
    EndIf
EndFunction

 

Though I'm inclined to suspect that MCMFollower isn't used for anything, and is some vestige of ancient code, so the function that updates it, and the calls to that function might just as well be removed - but I've updated it as above, because I can't remove the quest alias it's bound to, and leaving it stale would invite a bug if that alias is ever mistakenly used for something.

 

The problem with the old code was not the warnings, but that the alias wasn't being cleared when it should have been, but as it's not used, that had zero impact on anything.

[Lupine00]

19 hours ago, bubba999 said:

Ah, the question did disappear after offering. No chastity devices worn. The punishment for missing the offer one time was additional gold owed. Have not tried other offer deals yet.

 

I am looking at this now, and there are some legitimate reasons the dialog might disappear:

 

1) You are in a dungeon. Sexy times with followers in a dungeon is an odd fetish that is not supported. (More accurately, it's likely to result in sex+combat, which rarely ends well).

 

2) You are in substantial chastity (belt with no rear opening plus gag that is not a ring gag). Boob sex only is not enough for the follower, its seems.

 

3) You have already defaulted on the deal but haven't yet been punished for it - because otherwise it seems very confusing.

 

In the case of (3) you should still be able to ask, but will get a different response.

 

If none of these seems likely, then perhaps the main modular deal quest is stopped.

 

To diagnose why it's not showing up:

sqv _DFlowModDealController in the console and post what it says (in a spoiler please).

[Lupine00]

On 2/11/2021 at 6:48 AM, KLongad Sirtup said:

@Lupine00 Is it possible via a read-only property (or via a mod event) to expose  (to other mods) the number of times the enslaved player character has been punished? I'm thinking of suggesting or commissioning on Patreon for Pamatronic to provide, an execution based punishment mod for Devious Followers - Continued.

Do you mean the number of punishments added by a single DF during a single enslavement?

 

So...

 

It would not count up if you aren't enslaved.

It would be reset if you pay off enslavement.

It would be reset if you are sold to another follower or SS.

It would increase if the follower 'adds debt' while you are enslaved.

And ... it wouldn't be increased if the follower just does something because they are annoyed.

 

e.g. The follower may get mad at you due to lack of lives, or because you spoke to them. That would not add? Or it should?

[KLongad Sirtup]

6 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Do you mean the number of punishments added by a single DF during a single enslavement?

 

So...

 

It would not count up if you aren't enslaved.

It would be reset if you pay off enslavement.

It would be reset if you are sold to another follower or SS.

It would increase if the follower 'adds debt' while you are enslaved.

And ... it wouldn't be increased if the follower just does something because they are annoyed.

 

e.g. The follower may get mad at you due to lack of lives, or because you spoke to them. That would not add? Or it should?

 

Yes, during each separate enslavement. The count would reset each time a new enslavement begins, it would increase each on each punishment especially the most major one. The adds debt one is included if it is the punishment (non-compliance) based one. Also increment when (or if) your character is punished for speaking, when not supposed to (especially if it is enforced by a rule or core functionality). Also a cumulative read-only property (or mod event) would also be nice that would tally up all of the punishments, across all of the enslavement sessions.

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, KLongad Sirtup said:

Yes, during each separate enslavement.

I would like to see a "bad end" option for DF, so if this produces such a facility, I don't mind adding it.

Those that don't want such a feature can simply not install the extra mod.

 

DF will merely put those counts in globals, and it will be up to the punishment mod to do what it likes with them.

It will probably be in this weekend.

[KLongad Sirtup]

16 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

I would like to see a "bad end" option for DF, so if this produces such a facility, I don't mind adding it.

Those that don't want such a feature can simply not install the extra mod.

 

DF will merely put those counts in globals, and it will be up to the punishment mod to do what it likes with them.

It will probably be in this weekend.

 

@Lupine00 I don't mind waiting though is it be added this weekend or released this weekend? Also any idea of release date please? That way I can specify a ballpark when communicating with Pamatronic. Is the current devious follower able to be passed to mods so they can refer to the actor (in this case the my "bad end" idea for Pamatronic)?

[Xuvish]

17 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

DF must overwrite EFF, as written in the install documentation on the mod front page.

 

That means, in MO LEFT pane, DF must be further down the list - closer to the bottom.

In the right pane, where you have plugin order, DF must also be further down the list - closer to the bottom, and with a higher priority value than EFF.

 

If you have any merge patch that involves DF and EFF, DF must be the winner.

 

There actually shouldn't be any ESP clash, but there is necessity to ever load EFF after DF, so it's safer to ensure that DF has priority.

 

DF contains explicit overwrites of EFF scripts, and there are essential for the integration to work.

 

 

Another sign of a mis-installed EFF, is if hiring a second follower does not lead to them being counted by DF.

 

I do have DF lower down in both load and loot orders.  DF is not overwriting EFF.  EFF is only being overwritten by UI Extensions.

 

DF overwrites Deviously Cursed Loot and is being overwritten by ESP with cleaned masters, and The Amazing World of Bikini Armor.

 

I'm not going to mess with my orders while I am in the middle of a game.  I will wait until I start a new game.

 

It should also be noted I started DF with a clean save where I never had DF installed before.

 

Other than the dismissal of followers, I have not had any other issues.

 

Here are my Load Order (MO2 Left) and my LOOT Order (MO2 Right)

 

 

Load Order as of 2-12-2021.txt Loot Order as of 2-12-2021.txt

[Lupine00]

10 hours ago, Xuvish said:

I do have DF lower down in both load and loot orders.  DF is not overwriting EFF.  EFF is only being overwritten by UI Extensions.

 

DF should be allowed to win both. DF contains modifications to EFF scripts, and if EFF wins, those are lost.

From your LO docs I can see that DF is loaded after EFF, which is correct.

 

Your LO is correct ... for EFF with respect to DF anyway; it's the scripts that are wrong.

 

You can move DF below EFF in the left pane any time, it won't break anything. It will simply fix this issue.

 

As it is, both hiring, and dismissal of followers will not happen correctly for you.

Hiring might seem OK, but it is not, and DF's internal tracking of what followers you have will be incorrect.

 

 

I don't care what LOOT has to say. People put too much trust in that thing.

It knows practically nothing useful about LL mods, and routinely mis-orders them.

I haven't used it in a long time.

[Lupine00]

18 hours ago, KLongad Sirtup said:

I don't mind waiting though is it be added this weekend or released this weekend? Also any idea of release date please?

Weekend is kind of a date.

It will be this week anyway.

 

This is exactly how it will work, and as it only uses StorageUtil it can be developed without access to the updated DF:

Spoiler

The punishment counts will be present on the Player object and the follower, as StorageUtil Int values.

 

The values on the follower will be the ones specific to that follower. You will probably never need to care about these.

The values on the player will be the ones for the current follower, and the global totals.

 

They will use the following keys:

 

• DF_Enslaved_PunishCount - punishment value for this enslavement and this follower - if the player is not enslaved at this time, it will usually be zero.
• DF_Enslaved_TotalPunishCount - total punishment value for all enslavements with this follower - can be non zero, even though not enslaved at this time.
• DF_Enslaved_TotalPunishCount_AllFollowers - totalled punishment value for all enslavements and all followers - can be non zero, even though not enslaved at this time. This value is only on the player, it isn't stored on any followers as it would get stale.
• DF_Enslaved_Extreme_Punishment_Limit - on the player, the value at which DF itself will administer an extreme punishment. If not set by DF, the bad end mod can set this to any value it likes (though 250 is the suggested default).
• DF_Enslaved_Final_Punishment_Limit - on the player, the value at which the "bad end" mod kills the PC. If there is an extreme punishment limit, this value should be at least twice that, and never equal or less than it.
  i.e.  assert DF_Enslaved_Final_Punishment_Limit > DF_Enslaved_Extreme_Punishment_Limit

 

DF may expose both these values in the MCM, but I have not done so yet, and will not do so until I implement something for the "extreme punishment". The "bad end" mod may expose them in its MCM, and as they are StorageUtil values, there is no problem both mods having them in their MCM, but it should be understood that they can change at any time due to an external modification.

 

The punishment value will not be the number of punishments, but more granular, so there's scope for light punishments and heavy.

I think this is better than using floats, as float comparison is full of traps.

 

By default, a punishment (add debt) will add 10 to the score.

By default, being gagged, silenced, and whored out will add 1 to the score.

 

Severe crimes, as judged by DF will score 25 points, and are:

• not wearing part of your slave uniform in the required location.
• not having your arms bound when the follower has decided that's how you should be.
• losing your gag if you have been force-gagged and silenced.

 

Also, being abandoned by the follower for being a useless slave will add an instant 200 points.

 

I'd suggest that the PC should need to accumulate around 500 points to be killed, but if you like it hardcore, you could half that value. Seems reasonable the player should be able to set the threshold, but 500 might be a reasonable default.

 

I'm also thinking of adding a native DF feature, so that around 250 points the PC suffers some extreme punishment, with a warning that there will be no second chance...

 

I'm also thinking that the player should at least have an option for spanks that the PC begs for to reduce the value by 1, and whippings that the PC begs for might reduce it by 3 or so, but I'm not implementing that yet. There needs to be some way to offset the fact that sometimes you will get punished unfairly, and it would suck to die because of an accumulation of bad luck with that.

 

It would make sense for a death punishment mod to not worry about that, and just deal with the "end of game, you're dead, start a new one" problem. Just check for DF_Enslaved_PunishCount > DF_Enslaved_Final_Punishment_Limit , and if it is, maybe you can plead your way out of it, and maybe you can't.

 

I have this implemented now.

It took more time than I expected because when I looked at the slavery fragments, they were all different, and not updated since whenever, with no support for gold control, so I fixed all that too.

 

As for implementation timing for "extreme punishment", I won't even look at it until the death thing has been released by a third party.