Devious Followers - Continued

[Scrab]

4 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Here's the full change history, it can't live on the front page any more

"Why I make a simple Post for each major release and just link to that" 101

[Herowynne]

4 hours ago, Br4m said:

Will this get updated to Devious Devices 5.0?

 

I was testing the DFC 2.13.1 beta from @Lupine00 with DD 5.1 on Skyrim SE, and DFC appeared to be working fine with DD 5.x. I did not see any issues related to DD 5.x.

[chuBBies1]

4 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I really hope this fixes the troubles people have been getting with recruitment and dismissal since ... last year.

Should have mentioned this sooner, but uh I'm a forgetful SOB, but last week I specifically tested the dismissal of followers several times and it worked! The previous version of DF would sometimes correctly dismiss a follower but other times something would get borked( possibly user error) and the follower would leave, but not really. After testing this on the prelease a few days ago, however, I didn't see any issues... I'm actually really happy to see this get fixed, thank you.

 

4 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Some other things like the maid deal or cat deal could be nice, but I think the maid deal is one of those things where for it to be good, it has to be enhanced gradually over a while to make it feature-rich.

Now I really do like the sound of a maid deal, especially if it has depth( not saying this mod isn't deep, it's actually rather comprehensive for a follower overhaul type mod) and entertaining scenarios to accompanying it. The cat deal on the other hand... I may have been intrigued by the maid idea, but now you have my attention lol. 

[Herowynne]

5 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

removes some bogus masters, and the Chicken Race ITM that's been there forever (apparently).

It isn't needed unless you're actually having a dependency issue, or, you want to do an SSE conversion.

 

Much appreciated!

[hexenhaus]

On 9/28/2019 at 2:35 PM, Lupine00 said:

If you are aware of a DF bug, please report it.

I want to get all the kinks out before adding anything new.

 

At the moment, I'm mainly aware of issues relating to being enslaved.

 

Endless mode 'gift/present' might be a bit wrong, but with some of these things you have to guess what it was trying to achieve, and the evidence is self-contradictory.

 

 

Oh, a lot of people probably aren't aware that if you are enslaved, if the follower finds a dress-code violation and adds devices, there's also a cash punishment.

(Debt is usually mentioned in the dialog, but cash is taken - I've changed this to a more ambiguous 'pay' or 'cost').

 

In the scripts, the follower takes half your current held cash each time.

 

If you are in gold control mode - which you will be if it was enabled - then that amounts to a half gold-limit debt increase each time.

If you are not in gold control mode - then you probably won't have any cash to speak of - and it usually results in no penalty at all.

 

I feel this entire mechanic is a little flawed.

• It could be replaced with the MCM-defined punishment amount,
• or perhaps a special enslaved punishment amount,
• or keep the half-cash for gold control and something else if you aren't in gold control,
• or removed entirely.

 

Do people have strong feelings about this?

I think the whole automatic punishment by debt increase is a bit problematic. There could be a parlay with the possibilty to comply or delay. I had it some times now that my debt increased dramatically because I could not comply with a deal, because of wrist restraints or another mod that removed for example a collar and other stuff and I got debt before I was being able to reequip the collar. So maybe a warning and delay before auto-debt or dialogue with possibility to comply would be cool.

 

----------------------------

 

On another note I got the problem that the DF forcegreet dialogue:

 

I got 2 followers, one is a generic follower made into Submissive Lola master and the other one is my actual devious follower, which has all the dialogue. The problem is that the forcegreet only plays on the the non DF follower and often interrupts his own dialogue/forcegreet, for example with the "no keys" or "you caused a fine" forcegreet dialogue. DF's MCM tells me I only have one Devious Follower (as espected) and I tried repairing and even removing the Lola master from DF via MCM, but the forcegreet still plays on the wrong follower.

----------------------------

 

Is there an option to deactivate the Slut deal? If not I would really like an option for it, or some form of tweaking, like a cooldown, or it not playing on other followers etc. If you are forcegreeted it sometimes plays every time...

[Aldid]

4 minutes ago, hexenhaus said:

Is there an option to deactivate the Slut deal? If not I would really like an option for it, or some form of tweaking, like a cooldown, or it not playing on other followers etc. If you are forcegreeted it sometimes plays every time...

The slut deal shouldn't play more than three times in a row, but if you want to prevent it from being given to you you simply have to set the number of allowed stages for that deal to 0.

[hexenhaus]

1 minute ago, Aldid said:

The slut deal shouldn't play more than three times in a row, but if you want to prevent it from being given to you you simply have to set the number of allowed stages for that deal to 0.

Thanks, I wondered about that. But that means that the bound and "cummed" parts of the Slut deal will not be given either, am I right?

[Herowynne]

40 minutes ago, hexenhaus said:

Is there an option to deactivate the Slut deal? If not I would really like an option for it, or some form of tweaking, like a cooldown, or it not playing on other followers etc. If you are forcegreeted it sometimes plays every time

 

This is a feature request for @Lupine00 to consider.

 

I personally think the "cum dumping" feature is one of the most fun parts of DFC, but I really really wish that it was available on its own as a stage 1 modular deal.

 

It is problematic that the excellent "cum dumping" feature is gated behind the Classic Slut deal stage 1 "hand on shoulder" interrupt feature.

 

As @hexenhaus mentioned, the Classic Slut deal stage 1 "hand on your shoulder" interrupt can sometimes interfere with other mods.

[Doobydoob]

Great mod, the story included in the images would make a great mod as an Add-on to the mod if it were made into a Quest. 

[Maddac]

MME just got updated

[Anunya]

Looking forward to trying out the new DFC once it makes it over to SSE

 

I have two questions:

 

1) Looking at the images of Candibelle on your front page, how do you get an elf without the ugly forehead indentation? I've tried a few things, and none of them have worked. It puts a serious dent (ahem) in my plans for an elf playthrough.

 

2) If I set the DF to non-essential using setessential <baseID> 0  will DFC respect that or overwrite it?

 

I know you mention you don't want it to be too easy to get your follower killed deliberately, but I'm hoping to get a game going where the consequences of the Devious Follower dying are terrible, not positive. Basically it'd be a weak PC relying on the DF to adventure; if the DF dies, the PC is very likely sold via Simple Slavery to a new DF and with a deeper level of debt/ slavery.  Even if not, they'd have to deal with any equipped devices in a hostile Skyrim with no follower to protect them. The PC works to get out of slavery/ debt, with any progress being wiped away if the Devious Follower is killed. The ideal position for the PC is with a DF with a small and manageable level of deals, with a risk of slipping further into debt during gameplay (esp. if staying safe), but a risk of disastrous consequences if the DF dies. I know that's not 100% aligned with the original purpose of DFC, but with just a few tweaks I think it'll do the job really well

[SacredDatura]

1 hour ago, Anunya said:

2) If I set the DF to non-essential using setessential <baseID> 0  will DFC respect that or overwrite it?

 

I've wondered about this too.

 

I've played games where I use NFF's expendable guards feature and SL Defeat to recruit bandits and mercs into my party, with the idea of this pushover girl being taken advantage of by and being the party whore for a revolving door of scoundrels that get replaced as they die off. With Spank That Ass and the proximity rape from SL Adventures tuned high the sexual harassment part is covered but I often find myself missing the financial exploitation aspect from DF with its very well-developed debt and payment system.

 

[Lupine00]

10 hours ago, Monoman1 said:

That said, it might need to be faster though. If you've got time to get a key into your inventory and take off a device before detection/confiscation then it's usefulness is a bit more questionable. From what I saw it looks like a periodic scan? Why not go for OnItemAdded? 

If you read my blog post, you'll see it does.

 

It purposely creates a delay, and if I wanted I could control that even more accurately, but I didn't try and pare it down to the wire because somebody with a potato computer might find it unplayable. This is one of those cases where polished feature is a lot more complex than basic feature, because to make it sweet for everyone I'd have to add a slider to tweak the time you have to act, and then modify the enforcement so there's less arbitrary latency - i.e. not use the periodic update to flip the package condition.

 

 

5 hours ago, hexenhaus said:

I think the whole automatic punishment by debt increase is a bit problematic. There could be a parlay with the possibilty to comply or delay. I had it some times now that my debt increased dramatically because I could not comply with a deal, because of wrist restraints or another mod that removed for example a collar and other stuff and I got debt before I was being able to reequip the collar. So maybe a warning and delay before auto-debt or dialogue with possibility to comply would be cool.

This is a long-standing "feature" of DF. It usually works in a way players are happy with, but occasionally you'll get that runaway punishment where you're being hit with debts and you're unable to act to stop it, or you can't even figure out why you're being punished.

 

Arguably, the problem there is not the auto-debt addition, but the lack of recognition of the underlying problem. I can see where this is headed... unfortunately...

 

I fixed some of these issues for certain deals, but it's not possible to solve it completely because it's all handled in dialog conditions. The work required to move deal assignment out of dialog conditions was substantial, and this is a similarly sized problem, maybe smaller due to the lack of the BlockGeneric handling, but similar.

 

So many of the original DF's mechanics rely on dialog conditions and fragments, and that design imposes limitations on what's possible. It's difficult to maintain, and obstructs extension.

 

So, having something like a negotiation ... basically a dialog ... would require making about thirty new dialog trees - not just dialogs but entire trees - and those would have to be driven off forcegreets, though there would only need to be one of those - but people don't like forcegreets. It's completely possible, but it's still a major undertaking. It would also dramatically increase the frequency that players are forced to deal with a forcegreet at some potentially inopportune moment.

 

The key deal has already increased the exposure to forcegreets, and I was mindful of potential hazards from it. While SLS is generous with the forcegreets, it doesn't initiate them in dungeons, so there's a difference in the way they're experienced.

 

 

I'd say that the player has sufficient tools at their disposal to "cheat" around these issues, when they occur, which is not too often:

1. you can simply refund yourself the cash if you think it was ridiculously unfair.
2. you can add items via the debug menu - and that's one reason I added that capability.
3. you can pause the mod
4. you can simply keep away from the follower and generally avoid them helloing you.

I agree none of those things are as nice as some immersive dialog where the follower gives you options:

Spoiler

 

Follower: You aren't wearing your collar. If you won't keep your promises, I'm going to have to add debt.

PC topics:

You're right, please add the debt. (a)

But my hands are tied and my collar was stolen, it's not my fault. (b)

That's ridiculous. I'm doing my best to follow your stupid rules. (c)

Please, I can't afford this, can't we work something out? (d)

Just a moment! Can't you see this is not the time to discuss debt? (e)

 

-a- Follower: I hope that will teach you to amend your behavior. [adds debt]

 

-b- Follower: Here you go. I'll lock this nice collar on for you. Don't lose this one. I'm still charging you for the broken deal though. [adds debt and locks on a collar]

 

High willpower version

-c- Follower: Noted. I'll let you off the debt this time, and I'll lock this collar on you, seeing as you can't do it yourself.

 

Low willpower version

-c- Follower: Blaming me for breaking your promises? You need to learn to take responsibility for your failures. How do you suggest you do that?

PC topics:

Sorry. I'll accept the debt. Please put your collar on me and extend the deal.

I can't cope with any more debt. Could I have a new deal instead please?

Would punishing me physically make up for it?

 

-d- More complexity...

 

-e- Follower backs off and comes back in a minute, assuming not in combat.

 

So it would be significant work for each deal, and there are already 18 classic deal (states) and 26 modular, and the number will only increase. That's 44 dialog trees!

It would add a some fun to the mod, but it would be a lot of work too.

 

 

5 hours ago, Herowynne said:

I personally think the "cum dumping" feature is one of the most fun parts of DFC, but I really really wish that it was available on its own as a stage 1 modular deal.

 

It is problematic that the excellent "cum dumping" feature is gated behind the Classic Slut deal stage 1 "hand on shoulder" interrupt feature.

Adding "cum dumping" as a modular deal is a practical possibility. There's a good chance it could get done, but I can't promise anything concrete.

Binding and naked are already modular deals, give or take - they are both slightly different from the classic slut versions.

 

 

5 hours ago, Herowynne said:

As @hexenhaus mentioned, the Classic Slut deal stage 1 "hand on your shoulder" interrupt can sometimes interfere with other mods.

There is a limit to it, so it shouldn't break anything seriously. Also, there are ways to avoid it, that are designed in - learn to make use of them if you can.

It's already mapped out for possible replacement with something more like the other voluntary "daily" quota driven deals, but I like the uniqueness of it as it is. I'm not sure.

 

 

1 hour ago, Anunya said:

2) If I set the DF to non-essential using setessential <baseID> 0  will DFC respect that or overwrite it?

It won't work. The essential quality comes from the alias so you can't just reset it.

Also, DF has no logic to handle a dead follower. It will create a problem where you have to pay a corpse who you can't dismiss because they're dead.

Really, don't go down that path.

 

If you must kill a follower, pause DF first.

Get a new follower before you unpause and they should inherit all the debts and deals. It's fairly obvious how you could RP that transfer/inheritance.

 

Also, additional followers after the first are not made essential, so by careful selection of the master, you can kill a follower with DF active.

 

TBH, death and dismissal of followers during pause is a sketchy area that I want to give more attention to.

You should be required to have an eligible (non ignored) follower to unpause.

 

 

4 hours ago, Doobydoob said:

the story included in the images would make a great mod as an Add-on to the mod if it were made into a Quest. 

How would that work?

[Anunya]

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

It won't work. The essential quality comes from the alias so you can't just reset it.

Also, DF has no logic to handle a dead follower. It will create a problem where you have to pay a corpse who you can't dismiss because they're dead.

Really, don't go down that path.

 

If you must kill a follower, pause DF first.

Get a new follower before you unpause and they should inherit all the debts and deals. It's fairly obvious how you could RP that transfer/inheritance.

 

Also, additional followers after the first are not made essential, so by careful selection of the master, you can kill a follower with DF active.

 

TBH, death and dismissal of followers during pause is a sketchy area that I want to give more attention to.

You should be required to have an eligible (non ignored) follower to unpause.

 

That makes sense. Thanks for the explanation.

 

The thing is, though, it's not really about when I decide the follower should die. The scenario that's happened a few times now is the party is attacked - maybe ambushed - at a time when the PC is not effective in combat and the DF is taken down while the PC is still alive.

 

The ideal outcome from my perspective is that the DF stays dead and the attackers behave the normal way they would - so if they're bandits they might go "who's this little morsel we have here" or whatever, if they're spiders they do spider things and so on. Basically at that point, the PC can run for her life (and see what trouble she gets into), surrender, or fight (and be defeated and dealt with with whatever defeat mod is there).

 

It would add a nice bit of uncertainty, and there's something to be said for being handed on and/ or acquired like any other spoil of battle.

 

But it doesn't sound likely, so fair enough.

[Lupine00]

33 minutes ago, Anunya said:

It would add a nice bit of uncertainty, and there's something to be said for being handed on and/ or acquired like any other spoil of battle.

If you do an SD+ surrender at that point, you will be enslaved, and so will the follower.

They will still be a DF though. At that point you pause them.

 

SD+ will then play out, either you are released, or sold, or killed, or escape.

SD+ creature enslavement is super-dull though, and is sometimes impossible to leave because nothing will kill the owner for you.

 

If you have a defeat mod that puts you into SS, your DF should be removed and DF can auto pause at that point.

What happens after will depend on your SS outcome.

 

DF will also work as an SS outcome, and you can configure how that will be done, but actual DF slavery is quite harsh, can sometimes become bugged (save often), and is likely less featureful than where SubLola is now.

 

My thought is that DF should have an option to use SubLola slavery instead of its own, or at least the deviously modified version of it, as an option - and handle the debt situation and slavery end conditions cleanly. I don't see that happening in a hurry, as I have to get much more familiar with what the new SubLola is doing first.

 

If I do that, supporting SD+ would likely also be a possibility, in the same way, and SD+ is probably better in some respects, because it actually has a lot of configurability and interoperation hooks hidden away that nobody uses (so they may well be buggy, but are worth a shot).

 

There aren't really any other slavery mods that are much good for a player. At least in LE. I don't keep much on an eye on what's happening with SE. There's PetProject, but it's not exactly slavery, and of course there's CD, but officially, nobody has that any more. Other, sketchy options are Wolf Club, and Treasure Hunter Whore. At the extreme end, there's Trapped in Rubber, but it's not very DD compatible, probably isn't working well in SE, goes on a long time, and has a slightly incompatible start and premise. Fishburger's Sex Slaves also has a sort of PC slavery option, but it's more of a story quest, and much milder than DF or SubLola. Other than a lot of sex and the odd spank/beating, you'd be hard put to discern any consequences. DCL used to have some slavery, which was pretty strict and quickly got boring, but that's basically stripped out now. The replacement is just random chaos and feels very tiresome, but there are some mods to make it a bit better. The main appeal of DCL (for you) would be that it has quest stories and adventures with ready made plots and characters - this could be a big negative in some respects, so it's all subjective.

 

Also, the DF weird potion might be an interesting plot element in your story. The potion giver doesn't have to be the follower, and can be any potential follower. You don't need to have them in your party, though it's convenient if you do. It depends how you configure it.

[Anunya]

8 hours ago, Herowynne said:

 

I do! I really appreciate mods that provide full change history.

 

I have seen @Monoman1 mention LL's main mod page text size limit, so I understand why the full change log cannot be provided on the main mod page, but it would be really great if you can compose a new page elsewhere for the complete change history. Thanks!

 

Yeah, change histories are super useful to me as well. They help me decide when and whether to upgrade from a previous version.

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, Anunya said:

Yeah, change histories are super useful to me as well.

I have put it up on my blog and will link to it from the front-page next time I update it.

The play guide is also there.

 

Suggestions for play guide improvement are invited.

[Anunya]

12 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

I have put it up on my blog and will link to it from the front-page next time I update it.

The play guide is also there.

 

Suggestions for play guide improvement are invited.

 

Solid! Thank you.

[AylaElfie]

8 hours ago, Anunya said:

1) Looking at the images of Candibelle on your front page, how do you get an elf without the ugly forehead indentation? I've tried a few things, and none of them have worked. It puts a serious dent (ahem) in my plans for an elf playthrough.

 

Lots of ripping my hair out fussing over small things in racemenu! : )

 

I use high poly head and do lots of smoothing along the brow with the sculpt tool. Thats also what I used to make her ears stick out farther. Using the cheek shape slider also helps make the face look less angular. Shes still a work in progress as there always ends up being little things that bug me!

[bubba999]

1 hour ago, candibelle said:

 

Lots of ripping my hair out fussing over small things in racemenu! : )

 

I use high poly head and do lots of smoothing along the brow with the sculpt tool. Thats also what I used to make her ears stick out farther. Using the cheek shape slider also helps make the face look less angular. Shes still a work in progress as there always ends up being little things that bug me!

She looks nice. Question: is there a particular pose mod or something that you use to get her to squat like that?

[DayTri]

> Total rewrite of core functionality and huge content update

> Version 2.13.1

[Anunya]

9 hours ago, candibelle said:

 

Lots of ripping my hair out fussing over small things in racemenu! : )

 

LOL!

 

Well, the results look good

 

Quote

 

I use high poly head and do lots of smoothing along the brow with the sculpt tool. Thats also what I used to make her ears stick out farther. Using the cheek shape slider also helps make the face look less angular. Shes still a work in progress as there always ends up being little things that bug me!

 

Thanks! I haven't installed a high poly head nor played around with the sculpting tool. Yet another thing on the list of "something to check out and play around with soon." I'm on my longest playthrough right now (all the way to level 19! Wow!) but the pressure to put it aside and start futzing around with adding new mods to the load order and tweaking things is mounting....

[AylaElfie]

6 hours ago, bubba999 said:

She looks nice. Question: is there a particular pose mod or something that you use to get her to squat like that?

Thank you! That one should be in HC Poser from Halos site 

[Anunya]

13 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

If you do an SD+ surrender at that point, you will be enslaved, and so will the follower.

They will still be a DF though. At that point you pause them.

 

SD+ will then play out, either you are released, or sold, or killed, or escape.

SD+ creature enslavement is super-dull though, and is sometimes impossible to leave because nothing will kill the owner for you.

 

If you have a defeat mod that puts you into SS, your DF should be removed and DF can auto pause at that point.

What happens after will depend on your SS outcome.

 

Yeah that all makes sense. I think I'll just have to get used seeing my former DF master around randomly afterwards, which I guess can be handled by a bit of RP. It's really someone else. It's not like they'll actually remember the PC.

 

I haven't had SD+ in my load order recently, but I'm considering adding it back in the next go around.

 

13 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

 

DF will also work as an SS outcome, and you can configure how that will be done, but actual DF slavery is quite harsh, can sometimes become bugged (save often), and is likely less featureful than where SubLola is now.

 

I haven't actually played with DF slavery very much, so that's useful to know.

 

 

13 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

 

My thought is that DF should have an option to use SubLola slavery instead of its own, or at least the deviously modified version of it, as an option - and handle the debt situation and slavery end conditions cleanly. I don't see that happening in a hurry, as I have to get much more familiar with what the new SubLola is doing first.

 

That would be a great integration. It worked fine for me to turn SubLola on at a narratively appropriate moment, but having it handled by DFC would work really well. SubLola slavery is definitely a great extension of the DFC path, IMO.

 

 

13 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

 

If I do that, supporting SD+ would likely also be a possibility, in the same way, and SD+ is probably better in some respects, because it actually has a lot of configurability and interoperation hooks hidden away that nobody uses (so they may well be buggy, but are worth a shot).

 

Sounds intriguing.

 

I liked SD+ because of the various slavery starts it enabled (so you can start for absolute), but like you I've found the actual slavery part of it a bit dull. Only thing to do is basically run away after 5 minutes and eat any penalties whatever they are.

 

13 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

 

There aren't really any other slavery mods that are much good for a player. At least in LE. I don't keep much on an eye on what's happening with SE. There's PetProject, but it's not exactly slavery, and of course there's CD, but officially, nobody has that any more. Other, sketchy options are Wolf Club, and Treasure Hunter Whore. At the extreme end, there's Trapped in Rubber, but it's not very DD compatible, probably isn't working well in SE, goes on a long time, and has a slightly incompatible start and premise. Fishburger's Sex Slaves also has a sort of PC slavery option, but it's more of a story quest, and much milder than DF or SubLola. Other than a lot of sex and the odd spank/beating, you'd be hard put to discern any consequences. DCL used to have some slavery, which was pretty strict and quickly got boring, but that's basically stripped out now. The replacement is just random chaos and feels very tiresome, but there are some mods to make it a bit better. The main appeal of DCL (for you) would be that it has quest stories and adventures with ready made plots and characters - this could be a big negative in some respects, so it's all subjective.

 

Yeah tastes differ, no doubt about it. DCL is definitely on the "check out and futz around with some time" list for me. As for SSE and slavery, I think the options are basically SD+, DFC, and SubLola... and, maybe, as you suggest DCL.

 

13 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

 

Also, the DF weird potion might be an interesting plot element in your story. The potion giver doesn't have to be the follower, and can be any potential follower. You don't need to have them in your party, though it's convenient if you do. It depends how you configure it.

 

I'm super intrigued but also apprehensive. I have no idea what the potion does! I don't necessarily want to know at this point either, but I do understand it's irreversible so it's going to be a big jump... which is what makes it intriguing... heh. When I do take the plunge, however, I'd probably want to know what it does fairly quickly. I don't have a super high threshold for "what's going on? Is this behaviour intended or bug? What are my options, I have no idea?"

 

For Maer, right now, I'm kind of at a point where I think I need to add/ activate some other element in my load order to move forward but it's pulling me into futzing around with mods and settings and away from actual gameplay.

[Baltasarr80]

Devious framework would be nice when it would work good as a intermediary between the different slavery mods... even alone it has some nice parts but ... it doesnt feel coherent in it self ...