Devious Followers (8 June 2019)

[Hanshurtig11]

4 hours ago, crudo said:

Really basic question here.  I remember, at least I think I remember, reading on the front page a way to swap out the slave/whore outfits your follower requires you to wear in one of the deals with something custom.  I can't find the instructions to do that, maybe it was here in the support pages?  Could anyone direct me on how to do the outfit swap?

 

Thanks.

Not sure if hit the point, but after the deal with the plug you can get a deal with a "whoreoutfit". You then get 3 different outfits, one heavy, one light, one mage (clothing).

You then can chose whatever you like from these 3 to wear. They can be fitted to your shape via Bodyslide. regards

[Hanshurtig11]

Bugreport: (Rope)armbinder wont get removed, after attached throu rule "bind hands in town" in town, when back in wilderness. Can be removed but costs 500 Septims.

Not quite a bug but a bit anoying and probably not intended, "Follower puts it hand on your shoulders" happens still way to often. Sometimes 2 times in one conversation

and often 2-3 times in a row at one person. regards.

[Lozeak]

15 minutes ago, Hanshurtig11 said:

Bugreport: (Rope)armbinder wont get removed, after attached throu rule "bind hands in town" in town, when back in wilderness. Can be removed but costs 500 Septims.

Not quite a bug but a bit anoying and probably not intended, "Follower puts it hand on your shoulders" happens still way to often. Sometimes 2 times in one conversation

and often 2-3 times in a row at one person. regards.

I think i changed it lasr version so now you can struggle out of it easily. Will be called easy rope... If you can if not next version your follower won't be removing armbinders for free ?

[Hanshurtig11]

2 minutes ago, Lozeak said:

I think i changed it lasr version so now you can struggle out of it easily. Will be called easy rope... If you can if not next version your follower won't be removing armbinders for free ?

Ahh, tried out and yes !!, thx. Even that piece of rope (art)work does not look like you can struggle out of it ever ...and thx again for your mod !!

[crudo]

19 hours ago, Hanshurtig11 said:

Not sure if hit the point, but after the deal with the plug you can get a deal with a "whoreoutfit". You then get 3 different outfits, one heavy, one light, one mage (clothing).

You then can chose whatever you like from these 3 to wear. They can be fitted to your shape via Bodyslide. regards

Thank you for the answer but that's not what I meant to ask.

 

I had thought I read somewhere that you could choose custom outfits, meaning anything that you have in the game.  You had to replace the whoreoutfit files in the folder with something of your choosing.

 

I'm only asking because even after I run the DF clothes through bodyslide they still have a dramatically different shape.  I actually like what the choices are they are just too different in shape to work for me.

[Hanshurtig11]

14 minutes ago, crudo said:

Thank you for the answer but that's not what I meant to ask.

 

I had thought I read somewhere that you could choose custom outfits, meaning anything that you have in the game.  You had to replace the whoreoutfit files in the folder with something of your choosing.

 

I'm only asking because even after I run the DF clothes through bodyslide they still have a dramatically different shape.  I actually like what the choices are they are just too different in shape to work for me.

There is something like this in SD+ (Sanguines Debauchy). There you can drop your favorite slavecloth in the right folder.

[mai_hasegawa]

On 1/2/2019 at 2:19 PM, crudo said:

Really basic question here.  I remember, at least I think I remember, reading on the front page a way to swap out the slave/whore outfits your follower requires you to wear in one of the deals with something custom.  I can't find the instructions to do that, maybe it was here in the support pages?  Could anyone direct me on how to do the outfit swap?

 

Thanks.

Found this in mod description: 

Custom Armor toggle in MCM (read MCM description) - You need to add your custom armor in the correct folder no idea how textures will work if they use custom textures .... good luck lol.

 

… good luck, then

[deviousMarsupial]

Hey guys, quick question: someone mentioned back in October that if Simple Slavery puts you into DF deals, it won’t give you the necessary items to comply. Is this still the case?

[Corsayr]

6 hours ago, mai_hasegawa said:

no idea how textures will work if they use custom textures

as long as you have the outfit mod installed for the custom armor you are replacing it with the texture path should remain valid. 

 

If not you will need to copy the textures to the DF texture folder and adjust the NIF in outfit studio to point at the correct texture path. (peeps can hit me up, if you need a step by step on how to do that, it is actually a lot easier than it sounds.) ?

[Siudhne]

Got one crash when follower wanted to release me from straightjacket, and another one while in the inn with straightjacket still on. Seems something is still rather buggy there. Fun quest though. ?

[Lozeak]

Going to put things on pause again... ><. Basically, depression means I can't think or make anything right now. If it passes in a few days maybe I'll get back to the mod but if it takes a while it will take a while it's not something I can worry about right now. I might post what I made so far but it's not really in a releasable state. 

[donttouchmethere]

6 minutes ago, Lozeak said:

Going to put things on pause again... ><. Basically, depression means I can't think or make anything right now. If it passes in a few days maybe I'll get back to the mod but if it takes a while it will take a while it's not something I can worry about right now. I might post what I made so far but it's not really in a releasable state. 

I know that feeling. ?

I'll keep my Fingers crossed for you! ?

[galgat]

1 hour ago, Lozeak said:

Going to put things on pause again... ><. Basically, depression means I can't think or make anything right now. If it passes in a few days maybe I'll get back to the mod but if it takes a while it will take a while it's not something I can worry about right now. I might post what I made so far but it's not really in a releasable state. 

  No problem, I have had a blast with what you have done so far, it is a very enjoyable mod.  Writer's block is common, and always needs something inspirational to bust you out of it, like Aliens crash landing in your living room or gremlins, jumping in your underwear... ?

[Hex Bolt]

On 12/29/2018 at 11:24 PM, Lupine00 said:

PC: "Hello. Can I be your follower?"

Follower: "Maybe. I can fight but I need somebody to carry the loot and run around all the traders for me. I'd rather be drinking in the inn than trudging around the city trying to get a deal on some old bloodstained armor. Can you do that?"

PC "Yes. I'll work as your pack mule and haggle for you at the market, but I want a fair share of the profit."

Follower: "I'll pay you 200 a day, plus a 5% bonus based on what you can get for the loot at market, and to make sure you don't try to cheat me, you'll need to make 50,000 for me before you can leave."

Sorry for replying to a week-old comment, I've been away for a while.  Just wanted to say that I really like how this idea turns the relationship around in a way that feels natural for a weaker or insecure PC, while still motivating the player to play Skyrim and attempt to make money for that bonus amount.

 

There were some requests here in the past to have the follower manage selling loot, a tricky proposition for a mod.  But in this scenario that's the menial job, which falls to the PC.  The follower controls the money, which is the key.   I think reversing the payments like this would work well.  I like the current Gold Control a lot, but once I become too successful, I know I have a huge credit and I no longer feel like I'm in any danger.  Yet there's the problem of accessing it for a really large purchase (short of ugly workarounds like dumping gold into a container).  

 

With a configurable indenturement amount, the player could choose a low amount and have a dominant follower for a few levels, then be free to go solo or look for an even stronger follower.  Or set it sky high and be a perma-slave, or something in between.   This would also work well as a Simple Slavery outcome, with the PC tasked to pay off the follower.

 

This approach should be an option (just as gold control is an option) for those who don't care for it, but it could work well for a weak, cursed (or shy or insecure, depending your role play) player character, with a little different kind of DF relationship.  Just depends on how you intend to role play that character. 

[Lupine00]

7 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

This approach should be an option (just as gold control is an option) for those who don't care for it, but it could work well for a weak, cursed (or shy or insecure, depending your role play) player character, with a little different kind of DF relationship.  Just depends on how you intend to role play that character. 

I'm confident I could hack this into one or another version of DF, if I could find time. It's not a big change.

Probably, Lozeak could do it even quicker, if he liked it ... which TBH, I don't think he really does.

 

The other ideas, about innkeepers, would be more difficult/time consuming, but I think a cheap alternative could be used instead.

 

Really busy with real life right now, but maybe later ... when that clears (I hope it clears) ... I'll try doing this down the track, if nobody else does.

[Wyrade]

On ‎12‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 5:24 AM, Lupine00 said:

Spoiler

The problem I have with DF, if I let myself think about it, is that it's sort of upside down financially. The follower usually takes an increasingly dominant role, so why isn't there a point where they take ownership of everything and pay you as the follower? The obvious answer is that it's hard to do. DF is built how it is for practical reasons. Instead we get the jump to full slavery without an intermediate stage of being servant or lackey to the follower.

 

I think DF does a great job with the tools at its disposal. It all hangs together as a game and does the "role reversal" genre of BDSM fiction about as well as you can in Skyrim.

 

But if you are playing with a tough start, where the PC is a weak person, starting with nothing, lacking combat skills, or gear, or money - they need a follower to do the hard work - then a set-up where they are the junior partner from the beginning makes more sense. A weak PC like that should be offering to follow, begging for a job, not saying "follow me". ME has a tiny bit of this in it, but ME is not about adventuring.

 

Is it technically possible to make what I want? I think so. It's mostly about dialogue and how gold is managed.

 

Gold control took a big step in that direction. One reason why I like it so much.

 

It doesn't quite satisfy though. it seems odd that the follower needs to sleep, wants you to hire a room for rest, but won't give you money for it, even if you have lots.

I know this is done to try and make solicitation a thing, but I always want more "push" from the follower.

 

 

For example:

So, if the player is indentured, you get a different debt mechanic. Essentially, you're always in gold control, but instead of assessing debt, the follower assesses how much credit to give you.

 

So, instead of all money raised counting towards your debt, and you have to pay the follower, instead all money raised goes to the follower, and the follower has cash, she pays you a daily credit allowance, which is your daily pay. This goes on your normal credit that can be used to pay off deals, or pay for device removal, etc. You may also get a "bonus" percentage based on the amount you raise for the follower (though this could be zero).

 

Nothing special here in terms of mechanics DF doesn't have capability for already, just does the calculations differently, and tracks the follower's money in an additional variable.

The PC can then negotiate for more or less daily pay. Take a deal to get more pay for a week. Take a deal to get increased bonus percentage.

This would make the gambling game super-valuable to the player, and also more risky.

 

It's still your job to sell all the items and try and get as much money as possible. The follower could also periodically announce "targets" e.g. "I need to make 10,000 gold this week so I can pay my gambling debts. If we don't make it, I'm going to sell you as a slave to try and cover the difference. No hard feelings, but you've got to earn your keep."

 

How would you leave indenture in this case? Basically, you sign on with the promise that you'll help the follower earn X cash. For example...

 

PC: "Hello. Can I be your follower?"

Follower: "Maybe. I can fight but I need somebody to carry the loot and run around all the traders for me. I'd rather be drinking in the inn than trudging around the city trying to get a deal on some old bloodstained armor. Can you do that?"

PC "Yes. I'll work as your pack mule and haggle for you at the market, but I want a fair share of the profit."

Follower: "I'll pay you 200 a day, plus a 5% bonus based on what you can get for the loot at market, and to make sure you don't try to cheat me, you'll need to make 50,000 for me before you can leave."

 

PC: "You have a deal."

Follower: "Agreed, and remember, if you run off, I'll report you as a thief. Don't even think about trying to rob me."

 

The required value depends on the follower, probably  base + scale * level, a bit like daily debt.

 

How do you pay for device removal? It's expensive. The PC will be poor, and so will be forced to take deals for device removal. Perhaps if the PC has a lot of deals, the follower might remove a device for nothing once in a while, because it makes her servant more useful. This might be a "benefit" of low willpower if you're already in a few devices, the follower might remove a blindfold, slave boots, or heavy bondage for free because they interfere with your work.

 

 

The game plays "as normal" but they money you make isn't yours, and gold control isn't just a convenient escrow system to stop you being robbed, it's the follower in control, paying you what they feel like. Plus, you have to carry your own cash, if you have any, so it can be stolen - unless of course you ask the follower to hold it for you  

 

In this case, the inn prices are reduced (25?) because you pay for your room, not the followers'.

 

 

You could add more roleplay to it, incrementally, such as how rooms are paid for.

 

Sure, you still have to "lead" the follower to an inn, but once there, the follower should fire a little inn-keeper scene, where a room is hired, and the PC has no say in it. Insted their role in the scene is to be put down and demeaned, or worse, obliged to help with payment through sexual favours.

 

e.g.

On update, if inside an inn, and follower has less than 0.75 total lives, and time is between 9pm and 4am, follower triggers a scene.

This probably needs markers in every inn, but once you have them, you can use them for multiple scenes. Inns may already have suitable markers, needs investigation.

PC, innkeeper, and follower are in the scene.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

High willpower scenario 1:

Follower: "I want a room for the night."

Innkeeper: "As you wish. What about your servant?"

Follower: "Of course she needs to sleep too."

 

High willpower scenario 2:

Follower: "I want a room for the night, and a bed for my servant."

Innkeeper: "As you wish. You can have our best room, and I'll fit the servant in ... somewhere."

 

 

Mid willpower scenario 1:

Follower: "I want a room for the night."

Innkeeper: "As you wish. And what about your servant?"

Follower: "She can pay for her own room, if she has the coin."

 

Mid willpower scenario 2:

Follower: "I want a room for the night."

Innkeeper: "As you wish. What about your servant?"

Follower: "If she wants a bed, she can share mine. We might not get much sleep though."

 

 

Low willpower scenario 1:

Follower: "I want a room for the night."

Innkeeper: "As you wish. What about your servant?"

Follower: "Oh, never mind her, she can sleep on the floor."

 

Low willpower scenario 2:

Follower: "I want a room for the night."

Innkeeper: "As you wish. What about your servant?"

Follower: "Oh, she sleeps sleep at my feet, like a dog."

 

Low willpower scenario 3:

Follower: "I want a room for the night."

Innkeeper: "As you wish. It will be 50 septims per person."

Follower: "How about a discount? The slut here will please you, and anyone you nominate if you let her stay for free."

Innkeeper: "What can she do?"

Follower: "Anything you like, and I really mean anything. Don't be too gentle with her, it gives her ideas above her station."

Innkeeper: "Right! You have yourself a deal. The slut can make payment in kind."

 

Low willpower scenario 4:

Follower: "I want a room for the night. And is it alright if my whore works here while I'm sleeping? You can keep half, and I'll keep half."

Innkeeper: "Sound reasonable. Doesn't she get a cut?"

Follower: "She gets what I give her. Slut should be thankful she's not outside in a cage."

 

 

Enslaved scenario 1:

Follower: "I want a room for the night."

Innkeeper: "As you wish. What about your slave?"

Follower: "Do you have a cage I can put her in?"

Innkeeper: "I'm afraid not. This is an inn, not an auction house."

Follower: "Very well then. I'll just chain her in the common area. If she makes a noise, just give her a beating."

 

Enslaved scenario 2:

Follower: "I want a room for the night."

Innkeeper: "As you wish. What about your slave?"

Follower: "Do you have a cage I can put her in?"

Innkeeper: "Yes we do. It's outside, at the back."

Follower: "Perfect."

 

Enslaved scenario 3:

Follower: "I want a room for the night."

Innkeeper: "As you wish. What about your slave?"

Follower: "Oh... Just use her however you like. Don't let her take any coin. She's not allowed to hold money."

 

 

It's simple enough to get the follower to sleep in a bed for a time, while the PC gets to sleep ... or play ... or simply wait.

If the PC leaves the inn when they're not supposed to, the follower punishes them with debt.

If the PC runs off while the follower is asleep, they get a huge bounty. On leaving prison, the follower is waiting for them and has added debt.

 

Even in the high-willpower scenarios, if the follower is around, the PC doesn't control the situation and cannot talk to the innkeeper; they just get blocking dialog.

"If your master needs something she can ask the serving wench."

"Have you come to beg me to fuck you, slut?" etc etc.

 

In the case of the cage, you could run some other scene off it, rather than simply making it about sitting in some furniture, which gets dull fast.

Perhaps there are other female slaves in the cage, who bully the PC, or a male slave who rapes her, or a stream of passers-by use the nearby key to open the cage and take advantage of the slave before locking her up again.

 

As a bonus, these scenarios can easily block the player from sleeping, and prevent willpower recovery immersively.

 

If the low willpower PC wants to sleep, they may have to make a deal to gain the right, even if they have plenty of credit, probably gaining devices that reduce the benefits of sleep.

 

e.g.

Please, I need sleep too.

I don't trust you to behave at night, but alright... You can either take a deal to wear a chastity belt, or you can take a deal to wear an armbinder in town.

 

Wow, excellent idea, I'd very much love if it could be done like this!

Bet it would be a shitload of work though, if it's even possible to do it properly. :/

Still, this sounds absolutely awesome!

[SkyAddiction]

On 1/9/2019 at 3:48 AM, Lupine00 said:

I'm confident I could hack this into one or another version of DF, if I could find time. It's not a big change.

Probably, Lozeak could do it even quicker, if he liked it ... which TBH, I don't think he really does.

 

The other ideas, about innkeepers, would be more difficult/time consuming, but I think a cheap alternative could be used instead.

 

Really busy with real life right now, but maybe later ... when that clears (I hope it clears) ... I'll try doing this down the track, if nobody else does.

 

I can't believe I missed your indenture idea. That's also my solution to the wide range of player economies, right down to the 50,000g target value. 

 

Mine isn't DF-compatible and is only about 10% done (missing locations, custom devices, perk flags, dialogue, etc.), but the basic idea is so solid I really don't see any other viable alternative. Even with my tight economy and near-mandatory training costs, I still find myself adjusting DF salary values at times to compensate for the occasional large surplus of gold.

[Lupine00]

9 hours ago, SkyAddiction said:

Mine isn't DF-compatible and is only about 10% done (missing locations, custom devices, perk flags, dialogue, etc.), but the basic idea is so solid I really don't see any other viable alternative. Even with my tight economy and near-mandatory training costs, I still find myself adjusting DF salary values at times to compensate for the occasional large surplus of gold.

Other than gold handling and follower sleeping, I see indenturement as playing exactly like regular DF bar some changes to gold handling, sleeping and inn fees.

 

Implementation of this can be based on the OnMenuOpen and OnMenuClose events, it doesn't need to poll gold all the time. While the player may perhaps, be able to cheat due on occasion due to script lag, there will always be script lag, and anyway the player is only cheating themselves out of fun with such an exploit.

 

 

If you're in gold control, the follower holds all the cash automatically - with a specifically configured limit - and you get that allowance, not your pay, which goes onto credit.

It's regular gold control, but with a different limit, and different cash split rules for incomings. Cash split rules as previously described  - player pay and bonuses etc.

 

If you aren't in gold control though, the cash split rules remain the same as above: the follower tracks all the gold you obtain - or thinks you obtain - but the gold is left on the player - unless the player explicitly hands that gold to the follower.

 

So, if the player is robbed, they loss is taken from their money first, then the follower's money. The follower won't be happy if the player loses their money, and will expect to recover that loss from the player.

 

In both cases, the follower accounts all incomings as "theirs", and adds your pay as "credit" as per gold control. Money you hold is all "debt" until you give it to the follower, either automatically (gold control) or via dialog:

"I sold some loot, here's your money."

And as the mod knows how much gold you gained, it hands it all over without you having to choose an amount. Maybe you can try to cheat the follower, with a chance of success. If you fail, you get punished somehow ... with debt and a deal you can't refuse, possibly?

 

Sleeping - cheap version

 

With indenturement, the follower always pays their own room fees, but the player needs to take them to an inn, and bring up a dialog with the follower. The player has to handle their own room fees, if they want to sleep. They can choose not to, in which case, no willpower recovery.

 

Depending on the follower mood, player will, etc, the PC may get additional humiliation, some kind of bondage game, or probably just flavour dialog and possible resistance loss. The player should always be a little nervous about initiating that dialog, but without it, they can't get paid (see below), recover follower lives, or sleep themselves.

 

Also, innkeepers have a blocking dialog if the follower hasn't bought a room, that means the innkeeper won't let you vend, or rent a room unless you've already spoken to the follower about sleep. In some cases (low will), this might not unblock at all, and instead trigger some kind of game. (New content, cages, solicitation, etc). You are thus encouraged (but not forced) to sleep rough with low will (wilderness or dungeon) with commensurate sleep-rape risk.

 

 

One of the quirks of DF is that gold control credit is not regular credit. Originally "credit" was just a positive debt balance, which was capped. If you take lots of deals, instead of having lots of credit, you lose out, due to the cap.

 

When gold control was added, the gold control money was tracked in a different variable, to avoid changing any of that code. I'm not sure why. I'm not really sure what benefit the cap ever offered either, as it actively discouraged you from taking deals "in advance". It would have been simpler to remove the cap and keep tracking a single total? However, that boat has sailed, and now there are two ways to track "credit", one of which only "works" when gold control is enabled. This is something you have to bear in mind when implementing indenturement cash splits.

 

 

Let "owedbyyou" be money you are carrying for the follower that is not yours.

Let "duetoyou" be money the follower is carrying for you.

When the follower sleeps, they update "duetoyou" with your pay for that period. No sleep for the follower, no pay for you.

When you sell loot, the follower performs the cash split, updates "duetoyou" and "owedbyyou", and starts a timer.

You have the duration of the timer to voluntarily hand over the money using a dialog.

When the timer expires, or if the follower sleeps, the follower compares "owedbyyou" to "duetoyou".

If owedbyyou > duetoyou, the follower is angry you haven't handed over her money yet, takes the money, and adds debt.

If you no longer HAVE the money, any shortfall also adds on as debt. This is actual DF debt, which drives the game mechanics, enslavement, etc.

 

If you take a deal, it comes off regular DF debt ... but ... if you have more balance than the existing credit cap (on real DF debt), then instead of that being lost, it's added to "duetoyou" instead.

 

When in gold control, if the follower sleeps, "duetoyou" is added to gold control "credit".

In indenturement, gold control always enables the zero gold locks gold behaviour, so if you spend or lose all your cash, you don't get any more loans.

 

With regard to vendors ... when you open a trade menu, your cash is logged. When you close it, the difference is noted. If the difference is > 0, then "owedbyyou" is increased.

 

Additionally, the items in your inventory are snapshotted by a polling event, so OnClose, we know what was removed, and what was added. If any new items were added, their FULL value is added to "owedbyyou". Player cannot buy new toys for free. We can track the full value of items removed, and thus know what the player should have made, and compare it what they actually made.

 

If the player "makes bad deals", the follower can punish it.

If the player spends more than some limit on toys, the follower can punish it.

If the player holds a large inventory for too long, the follower can punish it.

 

This last one is nice: if the player has one of those items worth 2500, that are impossible to vend for full value due to vendor cash caps, if they simply hold onto it, they will get punished. They have to dump that item at a loss and carry that loss themselves.

 

This suggests a cheat where the player simply doesn't loot expensive items. I guess that when the player closes a loot (container menu), we need to check what the player left behind, and if it's valuable, the player could be punished. Rules here could be as complex as you like, or very simple and punitive.

 

 

Combine this system with one of those mods that makes skills only increase through training, and a follower that is set 5 or 10 levels above the player, and it should be ... interesting. Imagine having to choose between avoiding a deal or being able to afford to train a single point of 1H ... choose the latter and you also end up locked in a corset, or playing the slut, in return for that single skill point you managed to buy.

[SkyAddiction]

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

Spoiler

 

Other than gold handling and follower sleeping, I see indenturement as playing exactly like regular DF bar some changes to gold handling, sleeping and inn fees.

 

Implementation of this can be based on the OnMenuOpen and OnMenuClose events, it doesn't need to poll gold all the time. While the player may perhaps, be able to cheat due on occasion due to script lag, there will always be script lag, and anyway the player is only cheating themselves out of fun with such an exploit.

 

 

If you're in gold control, the follower holds all the cash automatically - with a specifically configured limit - and you get that allowance, not your pay, which goes onto credit.

It's regular gold control, but with a different limit, and different cash split rules for incomings. Cash split rules as previously described  - player pay and bonuses etc.

 

If you aren't in gold control though, the cash split rules remain the same as above: the follower tracks all the gold you obtain - or thinks you obtain - but the gold is left on the player - unless the player explicitly hands that gold to the follower.

 

So, if the player is robbed, they loss is taken from their money first, then the follower's money. The follower won't be happy if the player loses their money, and will expect to recover that loss from the player.

 

In both cases, the follower accounts all incomings as "theirs", and adds your pay as "credit" as per gold control. Money you hold is all "debt" until you give it to the follower, either automatically (gold control) or via dialog:

"I sold some loot, here's your money."

And as the mod knows how much gold you gained, it hands it all over without you having to choose an amount. Maybe you can try to cheat the follower, with a chance of success. If you fail, you get punished somehow ... with debt and a deal you can't refuse, possibly?

 

Sleeping - cheap version

 

With indenturement, the follower always pays their own room fees, but the player needs to take them to an inn, and bring up a dialog with the follower. The player has to handle their own room fees, if they want to sleep. They can choose not to, in which case, no willpower recovery.

 

Depending on the follower mood, player will, etc, the PC may get additional humiliation, some kind of bondage game, or probably just flavour dialog and possible resistance loss. The player should always be a little nervous about initiating that dialog, but without it, they can't get paid (see below), recover follower lives, or sleep themselves.

 

Also, innkeepers have a blocking dialog if the follower hasn't bought a room, that means the innkeeper won't let you vend, or rent a room unless you've already spoken to the follower about sleep. In some cases (low will), this might not unblock at all, and instead trigger some kind of game. (New content, cages, solicitation, etc). You are thus encouraged (but not forced) to sleep rough with low will (wilderness or dungeon) with commensurate sleep-rape risk.

 

 

One of the quirks of DF is that gold control credit is not regular credit. Originally "credit" was just a positive debt balance, which was capped. If you take lots of deals, instead of having lots of credit, you lose out, due to the cap.

 

When gold control was added, the gold control money was tracked in a different variable, to avoid changing any of that code. I'm not sure why. I'm not really sure what benefit the cap ever offered either, as it actively discouraged you from taking deals "in advance". It would have been simpler to remove the cap and keep tracking a single total? However, that boat has sailed, and now there are two ways to track "credit", one of which only "works" when gold control is enabled. This is something you have to bear in mind when implementing indenturement cash splits.

 

 

Let "owedbyyou" be money you are carrying for the follower that is not yours.

Let "duetoyou" be money the follower is carrying for you.

When the follower sleeps, they update "duetoyou" with your pay for that period. No sleep for the follower, no pay for you.

When you sell loot, the follower performs the cash split, updates "duetoyou" and "owedbyyou", and starts a timer.

You have the duration of the timer to voluntarily hand over the money using a dialog.

When the timer expires, or if the follower sleeps, the follower compares "owedbyyou" to "duetoyou".

If owedbyyou > duetoyou, the follower is angry you haven't handed over her money yet, takes the money, and adds debt.

If you no longer HAVE the money, any shortfall also adds on as debt. This is actual DF debt, which drives the game mechanics, enslavement, etc.

 

If you take a deal, it comes off regular DF debt ... but ... if you have more balance than the existing credit cap (on real DF debt), then instead of that being lost, it's added to "duetoyou" instead.

 

When in gold control, if the follower sleeps, "duetoyou" is added to gold control "credit".

In indenturement, gold control always enables the zero gold locks gold behaviour, so if you spend or lose all your cash, you don't get any more loans.

 

With regard to vendors ... when you open a trade menu, your cash is logged. When you close it, the difference is noted. If the difference is > 0, then "owedbyyou" is increased.

 

Additionally, the items in your inventory are snapshotted by a polling event, so OnClose, we know what was removed, and what was added. If any new items were added, their FULL value is added to "owedbyyou". Player cannot buy new toys for free. We can track the full value of items removed, and thus know what the player should have made, and compare it what they actually made.

 

If the player "makes bad deals", the follower can punish it.

If the player spends more than some limit on toys, the follower can punish it.

If the player holds a large inventory for too long, the follower can punish it.

 

This last one is nice: if the player has one of those items worth 2500, that are impossible to vend for full value due to vendor cash caps, if they simply hold onto it, they will get punished. They have to dump that item at a loss and carry that loss themselves.

 

This suggests a cheat where the player simply doesn't loot expensive items. I guess that when the player closes a loot (container menu), we need to check what the player left behind, and if it's valuable, the player could be punished. Rules here could be as complex as you like, or very simple and punitive.

 

 

Combine this system with one of those mods that makes skills only increase through training, and a follower that is set 5 or 10 levels above the player, and it should be ... interesting. Imagine having to choose between avoiding a deal or being able to afford to train a single point of 1H ... choose the latter and you also end up locked in a corset, or playing the slut, in return for that single skill point you managed to buy.

 

 

 

Right with you. I'd started working this idea a few months before DF was released, and it was initially very much like DF in that you pay your follower. DF set me to looking for ways to differentiate my project, and having the player work for the follower was the idea I settled on. It never occurred to me to check by inventory view, so that's a powerful tool I'll be looking into.

 

My project is one specific follower with whom you engage in a sort of battle of wills. Once you finish the "quest" you can voluntarily engage in content. Or at least that's how it'll eventually work if I ever allow myself to really focus on finishing it. The one thing I can't ever do is go back to player-as-employer as a concept. It's just too difficult a base to work from.

 

Incidentally, you don't need a skill-altering mod to force training. Just make SkyTweak a highly recommended mod, set all skill experience gain values to 0, export it, and include the FISS output file in the downloads. Having said that, I have mine set to roughly 7% of vanilla values, which nicely equates to 5-10 of 100 gained as opposed trained levels over time for highly used skills.

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, SkyAddiction said:

Incidentally, you don't need a skill-altering mod to force training.

I wasn't excluding SkyTweak, but in this particular context, it's just another skill altering mod that also happens to alter many other things as well.

I posted a fairly comprehensive round-up of skill-altering mods on the SLD thread, as you know which was triggered by discussion about SkyTweak.

 

SkyTweak ... tweaks all kinds of things, so there are reasons to have it beyond skills and experience. But...

 

To summarise for others, the point of most skill altering mods (beyond SkyTweak) is that they also change the availability of trainers for each skill in some way, as well as possibly altering the experience contribution, cost of training, and cap per level - the latter three being SkyTweak features, where as the first one isn't.

 

"All Trainers" has an alternate ESP that scatters additional skill trainers across the world. It allows you to raise all skills to 100 through training, but you have to travel a bit. It also removes the training-per-level cap, but it doesn't stop you gaining skills from experience. So you can either use SkyTweak for that, or use something with additional features, like "Training Options" or "SXP", which change how you level generally, adjusting quests, standing stones, and other facets of the experience system. Or you could use SkyTweak along with those things, if you're careful.

 

I don't think that play-change really comes into its own until you have something like a modified DF to really make it immersive. That doesn't exist alas. Right now, the best you can do is RP, or ME combined with DF, or something like that.

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, SkyAddiction said:

My project is one specific follower with whom you engage in a sort of battle of wills. Once you finish the "quest" you can voluntarily engage in content. Or at least that's how it'll eventually work if I ever allow myself to really focus on finishing it. The one thing I can't ever do is go back to player-as-employer as a concept. It's just too difficult a base to work from.

Oddly enough, my follower project sounds similar. Quest oriented, single character, specific dialogs, DF-style games, and so on.

 

But I didn't conceive of it until after Lozeak rejected the idea of personality types for followers in DF. Not in the form it exists. I considered doing some kind of "dominant follower" long before, mainly due to dissatisfaction with DCL's Leon and Leah. I think Submissive Lola is the first Skyrim mod to really leverage follower as dominant, and the idea was no novelty, even when SLo was made, but SD/SD+ set people down a different path for a long while. SD+ masters were supposed to drag you around, not follow you. Not so much these days, though you can still get in trouble for being in the wrong cell.

 

There are aspects of that restricted travel feeling that would work in DF, and people ask for it now and again, but Lozeak had other things he wanted more that would be more "bang for buck". I think he made the best choice he could in that respect, but that doesn't stop me wishing for improved slavery in DF even so.

 

I toyed with the idea of the follower using the radiant system to drive you to dungeons. Basically, it's a radiant quest, where the follower delivers the dialog. 

e.g. "I want to loot Mzinchaleft."

And you finish the quest by looting a boss chest there. System already exists for it in vanilla, all you have to do is use it.

If you don't progress the quest within the time limit, you get a punishment.

Or it could just be, "I want to drink in Markarth." and you finish the quest by talking to the inn keeper in the Silverblood Inn.

 

So, no leash, but the follower is still controlling where you go, but not how you get there. You're still playing Skyrim, not watching a dynamically generated movie (like PoP).

[DonQuiWho]

8 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Oddly enough, my follower project sounds similar. Quest oriented, single character, specific dialogs, DF-style games, and so on.

 

But I didn't conceive of it until after Lozeak rejected the idea of personality types for followers in DF. Not in the form it exists. I considered doing some kind of "dominant follower" long before, mainly due to dissatisfaction with DCL's Leon and Leah. I think Submissive Lola is the first Skyrim mod to really leverage follower as dominant, and the idea was no novelty, even when SLo was made, but SD/SD+ set people down a different path for a long while. SD+ masters were supposed to drag you around, not follow you. Not so much these days, though you can still get in trouble for being in the wrong cell.

 

There are aspects of that restricted travel feeling that would work in DF, and people ask for it now and again, but Lozeak had other things he wanted more that would be more "bang for buck". I think he made the best choice he could in that respect, but that doesn't stop me wishing for improved slavery in DF even so.

 

I toyed with the idea of the follower using the radiant system to drive you to dungeons. Basically, it's a radiant quest, where the follower delivers the dialog. 

e.g. "I want to loot Mzinchaleft."

And you finish the quest by looting a boss chest there. System already exists for it in vanilla, all you have to do is use it.

If you don't progress the quest within the time limit, you get a punishment.

Or it could just be, "I want to drink in Markarth." and you finish the quest by talking to the inn keeper in the Silverblood Inn.

 

So, no leash, but the follower is still controlling where you go, but not how you get there. You're still playing Skyrim, not watching a dynamically generated movie (like PoP).

If you were able to incorporate into some of whatever you are doing, though, some of the Devious Framework type leash mechanics and gameplay - which as sort of concept tests were far too short for serious use - that would be good ?

 

They seemed to hold the prospect of developing into the sort of roving controlling dom aspect that SD+ had long ago, but lost in its more recent incarnations.  The sub should be dragged around after the dom follower, and only let loose to do things as and when necessary.  Specific quests, fighting, combat outcomes etc.  And if Inte's POP can fix it so that the prisoner is walked from one place to another, why can't another mod use the dom follower do take the player, involuntarily, from 'here now' to the location of the next quest they were to do?

 

And involuntary resale could be fun too

 

I had really been hoping that the combo of your playstyle, and ingenuity, was going to produce something akin to those. 

 

So does flattery get us anywhere on that?

 

?

 

 

[Lupine00]

18 hours ago, donkeywho said:

They seemed to hold the prospect of developing into the sort of roving controlling dom aspect that SD+ had long ago, but lost in its more recent incarnations.  The sub should be dragged around after the dom follower, and only let loose to do things as and when necessary.  Specific quests, fighting, combat outcomes etc.  And if Inte's POP can fix it so that the prisoner is walked from one place to another, why can't another mod use the dom follower do take the player, involuntarily, from 'here now' to the location of the next quest they were to do?

Peopled drifted away from this for multiple reasons:

• many vanilla navmeshes are not great
• some vanilla navmeshes are actually broken, and USLEEP has not fixed them
• many mod navmeshes are terrible
• walking up steps under AI control is oddly unreliable
• watching your character walk automatically, for long stretches of time, gets boring

 

Yes, the idea seems immersive, but it gets old fast. Much like being made to walk really really slowly by some devious device.

 

PoP didn't fix any of these problems, but a well modded game mitigates them to the point where PoP usually works.

I've had it walk me from Rorikstead to Windhelm. It got pretty tedious after a while, with the NPCs doing a lot of fighting that I just had to watch.

They sometimes bugged and had to be unstuck with trickery.

 

I think the leash is ok, within the town, but outside, it goes on too long and works not so well.

Also, the yank mechanic in DFW is nuts, and can easily get you stuck in geometry, or make you fall through the world, or otherwise need to tcl out.

That yank mechanic will never work safely and needs removing. Any physics push has risks, as I found with SLD. To start with, the player movement state-machine doesn't account for it.

 

I'm not saying leash can't be fun, when used right (and I think that means sparingly), but SD+ has moved towards a softer leash for good reasons.

However, it's possible to create the feel of being controlled - of being made to go places - without using an actual leash.

If the follower is dictating your destinations, and - in the style of DF - you are obeying out of fear of punishment, then you are controlled even without a leash.

 

Also, a good soft leash - where you have a timer to get in range or be punished - is fine for making the player follow, without hitting the bugs that PoP and DFW hit. That still demands that the NPC can navigate well, and there's the problem.

 

Keeping the player as the thing that navigates the pathing is always for the best in Skyrim. It's not a nice safe, flat world, like some games, and TBH, the engine's navmesh handling/NPC path-finding is not great at all, even without making these demands of it.

 

 

I sort of wish we could have awesome leashes, as then maybe we could address a way to make it not dull, but the real sticking point is leashes aren't reliable, and the little problems start to break immersion.

 

Then there's the old bugbear of no actual rendered leash. This could probably have been fixed via SKSE plugin or ENB feature, if people cared that badly. I'd love to see a leash like that used in certain scenes, in known locations, with markers, so it all works perfectly. Doesn't seem like it's going to happen in any Beth engine this side of ES6 I guess.

 

 

DF already has involuntary resale, so you have that wish.

 

 

Afterthought...

 

There is functionality in DF that puts heavy bondage on the PC when the follower gets irritated, or randomly, depending on your interpretation of it.

That sort of thing could fit nicely into being controlled by the follower.

e.g. The follower puts a full chain harness set on the PC, and won't remove it until the PC enters a certain dungeon, town, or other pre-determined destination. Again, the radiant system can support this kind of thing pretty well.

 

This could be applied at multiple levels, so...

• PC is in Whiterun.
• PC is not allowed to have a weapon or armor, either held/worn or in inventory. Follower removes them on polling check.
• (This also prevents PC from selling them as loot to reduce debt, by design).
• Follower says: "I've decided to clean out Valtheim Towers and rob all those stupid bandits."
• Follower puts PC in extreme bondage, pet-suit, or hobble-dress plus yoke gag and boots.
• Follower says: "You can wear that until we leave town. I like the way it makes you wiggle."
• PC leaves Whiterun city limits.
• Follow replaces PC's outfit with (regular) bondage mittens, armbinder and corset.
• PC arrives at Valtheim Towers
• Follower says: "You better make sure I don't die, because your next master might not be so kind and generous as I am."
• Follower removes all bondage items from PC (except collar of course).
• Follower gives PC slut-armor and a suitable weapon, based on best skills.
• Combat ensues.
• Follower and PC win.
• On leaving Valtheim Towers cell...
• Follower says: "Now to Windhelm to sell all this loot."
• Follower removes slut-armor and weapon from PC.
• Follower removes all other weapons and armor from PC (anything they looted of this kind is lost to them, boo hoo).
• (Optionally follower gives some debt relief due to taken items).
• Follower adds DF magic-bondage mittens and corset. Skips armbinder in this case.
• If PC doesn't arrive at Windhelm within a reasonable time-frame...
•     Follower replaces magic-mittens with regular ones, and adds armbinder and gag.
•     PC now in DF "gagged slave mode", follower will not listen to them, and will whore them out on arrival in town. (Existing DF behaviour).
•     Follower confiscates all potions from the PC, without reward, as further punishment.
•     Follower says: "Get a move on, laggardly slave. We need to get to Windhelm."
•     If PC fails to arrive within second interval, further punishments...
•         Follower adds chastity deal, without any debt relief, as punishment.
•         Follower says: "If you insist on being slow, then you must enjoy it. Enjoy this!"
•         Follower adds slave boots.
•         Follower confiscates all ingredients, without compensation, as punishment.
• On arriving in Windhelm, follower blindfolds PC for laughs.
• Follower says: "I think it's safest to keep you blind until we leave town. You don't need to see what you're doing here anyway, you'll be spending all your time on your back anyway."

 

No leash needed here. PC always controls the pathing, but the PC is not "in control". The follower sets the destinations, and if they aren't reached in a timely fashion, punishments ensue. Punishments escalate as the PC fails to comply. Ultimately, if the PC keeps failing, their slave debt will be increased.

[Nazzzgul666]

I'm trying to get the custom whore armor to work (mainly because the default armor seems quite off, appearently you forgot to add CBBE?) but i'm failing. The folder mentioned in the MCM doesn't exist - it's Meshes/Armor/DFCustWhoreArmor, but only the meshes folder is there at all. Creating both folders and putting my custom armor there didn't work. Do i have to rename the outfit or how else is it supposed to work?

[Yezabelle]

23 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

-snip

This, really.  Stuff like SLUTS and more so Devious Followers shows effective compulsion that feels authentic as it occurs and feels fun (if often enough annoying as fuck) to play.

 

Would it be feasible to have them go to any old dungeon, or would it just be like a handful of dungeons randomly selected between?  I don't know enough about how Radiant Quests work but what you're describing seems awesome if difficult.

This is my first time playing with Devious Followers but I had to pry myself away, it was great.  Got trapped in the rabbit hole exactly as OP predicts players will be, though I was going to buy out but then things spiraled out of control.  Finally got free and now have Lydia, who is well paid and we have no deals... for now.  There's definitely room for more gameplay like this imo.