Devious Followers (8 June 2019)

[Corsayr]

11 minutes ago, Lozeak said:

I still have the issue of displaying rules to player in a convenient way that will work with localization methods that isn't a mountain of message boxs.

You could give them a note that explains the deal they just made, and warn them that losing their note would be "a problem" 

 

Notes could say things like 

 

"You have agreed to wear a collar at all times" 

 

If they lose the note have some kind of punishment

 

"Oh, you lost your note?"

 

Just a thought for something more immersive-y and lest pop up box-y.

 

?

[Lupine00]

Back playing ME again at the moment, and it jumps out how similar DF is - in some respects - to the follower system for ME.

 

The ME follower will easily turn into your pimp, or your owner, if you let them. They can be a help, or a hinderance, and they need their rest.

The ME follower is a lot more aware, generally, of the situation, but the time driven rules don't work so well with adventuring.

 

However, the process by which you get in trouble is very different in each mod.

 

In DF it's about money. Usually, you either have to have your speech crippled, or get the follower to remove a lot of DD items to end up in debt.

Using Wounds creates another situation for peril in DF. Get badly wounded and you can't adventure for days.

If you lack the cash to pay the follower off, or don't want to pay the follower off, then you might have to take on debt, or at least burn your cash buffer.

 

In ME, it's more about them liking you and random numbers. You have to keep their mood good by doing what they like.

 

 

It would be interesting if a new DF could let you recruit followers in different ways/modes, as hirelings, bosses, or companions.

Presumably, it could look at factions, relative level and relationship rank to decide what is appropriate - or let the player configure a preference for a particular follower.

 

Followers who are companions could transition to the mercenary path if you don't treat them nice and indulge their little games.

 

Followers who are making you pay, could in some cases become companions, if you get on their good side.

 

Followers who are bosses could become companions if you become useful.

 

Followers who are making you pay, could in some cases become bosses, if you end up in debt.

 

Companion-mode followers could still track "debt" and impose "deals", but the debt wouldn't be cash, it would be in mood points or something.

Do what they want, earn mood. Buy them drinks, have sex with them, let them tie you up, mood goes up.

Mess them around, get them raped by draugr, develop a hideous odour due to parasites, refuse their sex games, or not give them enough presents, mood goes down.

In many cases presents could take the place of cash for companions.

Companions might give you presents in return though, nice shiny ebonite ones, they expect you to wear in the comfort of your own home, for sex. Be careful they don't start to think you like it too much...

 

Something to think about anyway.

[Darkwing241]

7 hours ago, Corsayr said:

You could give them a note that explains the deal they just made, and warn them that losing their note would be "a problem" 

 

Notes could say things like 

 

"You have agreed to wear a collar at all times" 

 

If they lose the note have some kind of punishment

 

"Oh, you lost your note?"

 

Just a thought for something more immersive-y and lest pop up box-y.

 

?

This is a great idea!

 

Signing a contract has its own subtle power play fetishism to it.  It would be a great source of progression

 

-start with a contract where the follower works for you, that details their pay structure

-progress to a contract more beneficial to your follower, with certain stipulations and benefits to your follower

-progress to a contract where YOU are the employee (maybe this comes with gold control?)

-progress to a ownership certificate, with a list of rules ect.

 

I think Slaverun has a similar mechanic.  A certificate that updates with things like name changes ect.

 

Now that I think about it, name changing and name giving would fit right in to DF too.

 

I really hope Lozeak can make this happen.

 

[DonQuiWho]

34 minutes ago, WideHard said:

What's ME if you don't mind me aksing?

I'd guess Maria Eden ...

 

... or Manipulated Erection

 

Take your pick ....I'm sure he'll tell us ?

 

 

[BigOnes69]

On 2/15/2019 at 4:43 AM, donkeywho said:

I'd guess Maria Eden ...

 

... or Manipulated Erection

 

Take your pick ....I'm sure he'll tell us ?

 

 

Dont go there. There will be 4 pages of posts on the difference between the two. LOL.?

[crudo]

I've run this mod now for over two months and still enjoy it quite a bit.  It fits into the gameworld, mostly immersive, the writing is excellent and it doesn't get too stale.  I think the best thing about it is you can still play the game with all the shennanigans that the mod provides.  The only stumble with gameplay that I get is the chastity belt, when your follower decides he wants to play it can be at the worst of times, mine almost always seemed to trigger right before or during combat.  Maybe if it only happened in cities, towns, inside... just thinking here.

 

Some immersive ideas that come to my mind when I play.

 

I wish the followers could die, at least by the hand of the player.  Maybe an attempt of murder by the player places a new restriction on your character if unsuccessful.  I understand that would lead to debt unpaid.

 

Which makes me think it would be interesting if there was a follower's guild.  Don't have to mod an entire guild building or anything like that.  Maybe just have an npc at the Drunken Huntsmen who enforces the debt collection and has the law on his side.  Turn debt to bounty or transfer to next follower.

 

Finally, what do you think about more variety in the personality of the follower.  Even if it's simply a random event that a follower may be devious or may be vanilla.  Just a thought, hard to hire or ask help from npc's if their behavior is always negative.

 

One other thing.  I've almost always avoided using followers because they are just so darned overpowered in most instances.  Tried many mods that toughen up the game but inevitably between my follower and character they could tear through anything at higher levels.  Just tried Run Dragonborn, RUUUUN mod and it's fantastic way to balance out the game.  Recommended with this mod.

 

Sorry for all the rambling.  Big fan of this mod, thanks for all your hard work.

[Lupine00]

2 hours ago, crudo said:

Maybe if it only happened in cities, towns, inside... just thinking here.

This is an issue that bedevils almost all slavery mods. Providing good context is hard in Skyrim.

Still, DF has many mechanics that vary due to cell type. Making belt games only occur in holds would be quite straightforward from a technical position.

The big blocker here is that DF is sort of in maintenance mode while Lozeak works on DF2.

 

 

2 hours ago, crudo said:

I wish the followers could die, at least by the hand of the player.  Maybe an attempt of murder by the player places a new restriction on your character if unsuccessful.  I understand that would lead to debt unpaid.

It's hard to imagine the follower sticking around with a potential assassin. The only viable consequence I can see for that is enslavement, followed by being sold ASAP.

If it were like that, I could see it as a valid choice ... but how would you make it "hard" to kill the follower?

 

 

Firstly, followers are normally allies, so they will take hundreds of hits before they turn aggressive. Changing this for followers generally would cause problems. So it would need some OnHit tracking specific to DF followers, and if you're allowed any tolerable number of accidental hits, that's enough to get a good head-start on killing them, and thus make it very easy to kill the follower.

 

SD+ handles this by denying you weapons (and generally, spells too). That won't work for DF.

 

I don't think I've ever seen a DF follower sleep either. Somehow they only sleep after you do, and always wake up first  

 

So, you don't have the ability to attack them while sleeping that SD+ offers.

 

 

Overall, as a play mechanic, it needs more thought before it's a complete idea.

 

 

Something that might work, is if the follower gets a full-heal, full-stamina-refresh, and full-magicka-recharge, when they are turned aggressive and non-essential. Then, once you've started that fight, the only outcomes are dead follower, or PC, defeated, enslaved, collared, mittens, and the full chain set the follower sometimes adds arbitrarily to slaves in dungeons. The slave debt would then be whatever you owed to start with, plus some large amount. If you have it enabled, you'd be sold ASAP, if it isn't, you'd get an even bigger debt. Also, gold control would have to be enabled to permit killable followers to be enabled. Possibly enabling the "being sold" should also be a pre-requisite. 

 

But there are issues, you can still skew things by removing all their gear before you attack... So there's another thing the DF follower has to prevent, that frameworks allow. If you take all their stuff, they need to magically take it back somehow - because you can't stop something like EFF removing their weapons or armor - EFF implicitly trusts the player.

 

If you use a pathing trick or ranged sniping to get them, or stealth archery where you are hiding - the follower should disengage, and run with a speed boost - and if they get out of LOS, they are ported immediately back to their home. You would then get a bounty in all holds as per the mechanic where a follower dumps you for total uselessness instead of enslaving you. This might also work (up to a point) for situations where you steal all their stuff before attacking. Could also trigger the radiant "theft revenge" quest, just in case you don't have PoP bounty hunters.

 

The intent is that this approach is only worth pursuing when the situation is otherwise untenable, and the risks are extreme. Of course players can always cheat so winning is easy, but then, players can easily give themselves 20,000 gold too.

 

Any thoughts?

 

I can't see Lozeak doing it, with the work he has on for DF2 right now, but who knows?

 

[sryyyyyyyyyyy]

Hello!

I gave my follower charge of my gold.

It was hella lot and I want it back.

My follower refuses to do so...

(500k im losing here... lots of grinding)

Appreciating this mod btw. nicely done

[Lupine00]

2 hours ago, sryyyyyyyyyyy said:

Hello!

I gave my follower charge of my gold.

It was hella lot and I want it back.

My follower refuses to do so...

(500k im losing here... lots of grinding)

Appreciating this mod btw. nicely done

If you no longer have that follower, you need to get a new one and convince them to give it back --- magically they should have it.

 

If you still have the follower and they simply refuse to end gold control, you just need to keep on checking every morning until they change their mind.

 

It's easy to give yourself gold in the console.

e.g.

player.additem f 10000

 

There are still (probably) some bugs in DF with ending gold control. In some cases it isn't reset when it should be (or at least didn't used to be).

But those bugs all relate to the player doing things like disabling gold control while in gold control, or losing their follower while in gold control, or resetting DF while in gold control.

 

Don't do those things if you can avoid them.

 

The normal process to leave gold control works OK. It's just kind of random whether the follower will let you end it or not.

[DarmanSejuk]

On 2/14/2019 at 12:36 PM, Darkwing241 said:

This is a great idea!

 

Signing a contract has its own subtle power play fetishism to it.  It would be a great source of progression

 

-start with a contract where the follower works for you, that details their pay structure

-progress to a contract more beneficial to your follower, with certain stipulations and benefits to your follower

-progress to a contract where YOU are the employee (maybe this comes with gold control?)

-progress to a ownership certificate, with a list of rules ect.

 

I think Slaverun has a similar mechanic.  A certificate that updates with things like name changes ect.

 

Now that I think about it, name changing and name giving would fit right in to DF too.

 

I really hope Lozeak can make this happen.

 

This would be an interesting idea if when a contract is in place the PC has to wear a collar or some other item That allows the follower to update the status of the player depending on what stage of the contract the player is at. This could lead to more NPC conversations depending on what the tag the follower placed on the PC says.

[Lupine00]

2 hours ago, DarmanSejuk said:

This would be an interesting idea if when a contract is in place the PC has to wear a collar or some other item That allows the follower to update the status of the player depending on what stage of the contract the player is at. This could lead to more NPC conversations depending on what the tag the follower placed on the PC says.

Some of the magic of DF comes from the gradual slide into trouble that comes from taking deals that are at first, merely inconvenient, but then you take one, and everything just ... falls apart ... and you might not have guessed it would happen that way.

 

If that could be brought to the contract narrative - even if the contract is just something mentioned in dialog - it would flesh the player-follower interactions out in an interesting way.

 

Something that's missing from DF is the "point" where the PC could say no to the follower but instead capitulates.

 

The start of this should be the player's very first interaction. Here the player should start with a contract where they promise to pay the follower, and the contract is sealed with magic, or some other plot-device. From now on, the contract can only vary through mutual agreement. And so, at each step, the follower will always ensure the player agrees - they enslave themselves.

 

 

Currently, there isn't ever a point where we find out that the follower has finally seized control, and as soon as they don't have enough deals, they give up control, without a real fight.

 

Some of the games seem to tell a different story about the follower's aims, that doesn't mesh completely with the deal mechanic as implemented.

 

 

There are natural points where the follower has you over a barrel, and that's when they should attempt to consolidate their control.

 

Typically, this is when one of the following happens:

• You desperately need the follower to remove trap devices.
• You really need to play the key game.
• You are greedy enough to play the gambling game.

For story purposes, there ought to be a player choice at these junctures, beyond simply asking for the follower's help.

 

e.g.

I'll remove all your devices for free if you put this collar on, or you can pay.

I'll give you a set of keys of your choosing, but you will take a deal of my choosing for each pair of keys, or you we can play a game for them.

I'll lend you my money, with interest, or we can gamble for it. (The interest rate is even higher than normal).

 

With this approach, each one of the three "help me" scenarios offers a tempting freebie as well the the existing mechanism (pay for device removal, key-game, gambling-game).

To make this more tempting, the punitive side of the games should be increased a bit, and the cost of device removal default higher.

 

 

Maybe the real cost of the freebie is drawn randomly from a set of possible penalties. Maybe they are designed in. Doesn't matter much.

 

 

But in the case of something like the collar mentioned above, the PC should discover that putting on the collar gave the follower a powerful lever to force more agreements. Maybe the collar is something like the slave collar from DCL, and on the follower's command, it forces the PC to be naked and attracts rapists. It can't be removed except by the follower. The reveal of this power doesn't happen immediately, it's a surprise. Maybe the power is randomly chosen from a set, like a deal. (Maybe implemented like a deal in many ways).

 

The PC has to agree to the follower's latest demand, or the follower won't disable the collar's active power.

e.g.

• Take three deals and I'll turn it off.
• Agree to a level 2 chastity deal, and I'll turn it off.
• Take 20,000 debt, and I'll turn it off.

There could be any number of these offers.

 

 

And finally, when it comes to paying off a deal, the follower should be reluctant - but the contract says they have to accept pay, if the PC has the cash - so they should try things to make sure they can't afford to remove the debt.

 

Enact gold control (this shouldn't be imposed arbitrarily, like it can be now)

Deals that the player can often be taken as an option, instead of a "proper" deal, that result in an ongoing increase in the follower's daily fee.

Deals that increase the punishment fine for breaching deals.

 

And if the PC doesn't pay for too long, the follower might go to the Jarl, and swap part of the debt for bounty - so the PC gains a large, nasty bounty to offset some of their debt.

 

So, the deal offer dialog would have more options:

 

I'd like to take a new deal.

I want you to wear piercings in your nipples.

No. I don't want that.

Alright, I'll take that deal.

How about I increase your pay instead?

 

Just this final option could be added to the existing DF, for some interesting results. A single dialog line that adds an amount onto the daily pay-rate.

 

And for gold control, instead of instant imposition:

 

You owe me too much money. You just can't look after your gold. Are you sure you don't want me to do it for you?

Alright, you can look after the gold from now on.

Please, no. I can do this. I'll get you the money. Really I will.

 

And if you pick the second option, and refuse, the follower says something like...

Alright. I'll give you another chance, but next time you screw up like this, I'm adding <X> debt and going to the Jarl.

 

And then the next time it happens...

 

You owe me too much money. You just can't look after your gold. I've given you so many chances. Enough is enough.

Please don't go to the Jarl. You can look after the gold, alright?

Do your worst. A contract is a contract.

 

In the latter case, no gold control, but instead the player swaps debt for bounty, and the bounty will definitely be a major crime.

 

Finally, "enslavement" should also require agreement:

 

Poor thing, you've got so many deals that you're effectively my slave now. Less than a slave really.

How about a new contract that says just that, but you won't have to pay any further expenses. If you can afford to buy yourself back, I'll sell you to yourself and you can be free.

Alright, I'll be your slave if it means you stop adding debt.

Never. A contract is a contract. I'll get your money and get rid of these silly deals.

 

I think it would certainly be cool if the only changes were the meta deals to increase daily pay, and to increase punishment fines, were always in the mix, and you could take an unlimited number of them (no deal level associated with them).

 

When they come up, you can (usually) choose to refuse them, and that pushes you to refuse deals, which costs money, and makes willpower matter more because being able to refuse those deals is critical not ending up enslaved for good.

 

And of course, when your willpower pancakes, you don't get to refuse, but you get ... something like ...

 

Will you agree to <this thing>?

I really shouldn't agree to that, but I guess you're right.

Of course.

 

And if you pick "Of course", it blocks willpower restoration for one sleep (stackable), but the follower gives you a random present (that is usually worth having).

If you simply agree, you don't get a present, but willpower recovery remains normal.

[Lupine00]

While I'm just spamming random ideas...

 

Some deal possibilities.

 

A deal to wear a device that gradually increases boob size over time (permanently).

A deal to wear a device that increases arousal, and once at 100 arousal, willpower starts to fade away, point by point.

A deal to wear a device that debuffs speech, substantially (tongue piercing?)

A deal that permanently subtracts a modest amount from your speech skill, you can regain it through experience, like normal. There's no need to ever pay it off, it's just money in exchange for brain damage.

A deal to drink alcohol (1) at least once before you can leave an inn.  (2) two bottles before sleeping and one before you leave. (3) whenever the follower says.

(This ones needs RND or something that adds drunkeness to have any real teeth).

Note that the player has to be able to buy the booze.

If they don't, or can't, they get punishment debt (but only once - the follower won't ask again until the next inn).

 

 

And more complex...

A deal to wear a device - a ring - that is a highly beneficial enchanted item, and it must always be paid off before any other deals can be removed.

 

The above device triples inn fees if locked on properly (by the player) if they have no key.

However, it multiples inn fees by 15, if not locked, or the player has a key.

(See Aradia for easy ways to do this sort of thing).

 

So, if you lock the ring on, it's beneficial, and adds a little cost (200 extra gold a night, harmless unless you are broke).

But if you refuse to lock it, it adds 1400 extra gold a night.

The item has a curse - hence the extra inn cost, but it's so good, you might not want to remove it anyway.

 

But wait ... turns out that there's a whole set of such items... Each really useful, and with some minor drawback if locked, that becomes major when unlocked.

 

The last item of the set is a doozie...

 

It's an amulet (so it blocks lucky charms).

Its curse destroys any item that you loot matching any of the cursed items you're wearing.

So your cursed breast-plate now vaporises any body armor that you loot.

Cursed gloves destroy gloves you loot, and so on. Goodbye to all those cheating lucky charms.

 

And when you get the amulet, you're wearing the whole set - you have to be to be given the final piece - and most pieces will probably be locked on too.

So then, you can't loot any armor items. They all vaporise. Oh well, never mind. At least you can still loot weapons ... unless ... well you can guess, can't you?

 

Good luck paying off those debts now.

 

 

The other minor curses all effect money too... Plus the initial ring, there are enough for body, arms, legs, head, and of course, final amulet.

 

gloves - If locked, alchemists charge extra, pay less. If unlocked, they also have no cash reserve.

head - If locked, general stores charge extra, pay less. If unlocked, they also have no cash reserve.

body -  If locked, blacksmiths charge extra, pay less. If unlocked, they also have no cash reserve.

boots -  If locked, food vendors charge a lot extra, pay a lot less. If unlocked, this extends to inn-keepers, wenches, and the effect is even stronger.

 

To remove an item, you have to pay off the debt, but that only stops the follower from fining you for not wearing it.

You also have to unlock it, if it was locked.

And they all have to be paid off before you can buy off any other deal.

And they have to be paid off, ring first, amulet last.

 

 

Plus, there are a bunch of weapons that look exactly like normal ones, but are also cursed. You encounter these from time to time routinely in loot.

Normally, they cause all other weapons of that type to vanish on looting - quite mild - and you can sell the cursed item normally, or drop it, and they only effect one weapon class (such as 1H axes).

 

But once you get the amulet, the curse worsens, and you cannot sell or drop of any of these cursed weapons until you get rid of the amulet.

At least you'll only have one of each type to lug about, and the weight for them changes to 2 at this point. Almost good, isn't it?

If you loot a higher value damage for a type (e.g. a better axe) maybe you get to keep it and the other one vanishes.

Having the curse only on ebony would be a bit of a giveaway.

 

Alternatively, this could work with items that simply gain weight when unlocked so you can loot less, making the curses are simpler to implement.

 

 

With the various "deals" above I finally have the immersive mechanics I was looking for, that create genuinely seductive paths to doom, and that you can flirt with, and possibly get away with, if you have to.

[Zaflis]

Is there actually a contract as readable paper item in game yet? I think it would be hilarious idea, the contract putting strong emphasis on how you will be getting strong combat support and a caring companion for your journeys. Written in a way that will be hard to decline. "I can even carry items for you, so you can profit more!"

[Lupine00]

5 minutes ago, Zaflis said:

Is there actually a contract as readable paper item in game yet? I think it would be hilarious idea, the contract putting strong emphasis on how you will be getting strong combat support and a caring companion for your journeys. Written in a way that will be hard to decline. "I can even carry items for you, so you can profit more!"

Simple answer. No. There is no actual contract "book" or "note".

Maybe you can make your own?

[Zaflis]

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

Simple answer. No. There is no actual contract "book" or "note".

Maybe you can make your own?

Ok here goes ?

 

(Should be different version for male and female followers, for "he" and "her" wordings.)

 

Spoiler

Hereby I agree X to be my loyal bodyguard. She will protect me with her life in combat and stay by my side as a caring companion, until our mutual and understanding agreement would take us apart.

 

She will rush to my aid not only with her sword, but also to help me with my burdens. As adventurers we want to bring back treasures for wealth and glory, and she agrees to help me carry them so that I can profit. As a token of trust and work effort, she will only require minor fair payments of her choosing.

 

If we so decide, I can even marry her. Then she will also cook for me and make me happy. Wouldn't that be a story worth writing on the walls of history, as the 2 undefeated champions ran towards the sunrise in grassy fields of Whiterun to put another draugr king back to his rest?

 

Sign _

 

Btw, for the marrying part i highly recommend PetProject https://www.loverslab.com/files/file/4352-petproject/  , it's been working well, but i'm too early to tell if there are any real conflicts between devious followers. Ideally you want to have a second npc in your home, be it another dismissed follower or the wife.

 

[Lupine00]

9 hours ago, Zaflis said:

Btw, for the marrying part i highly recommend PetProject https://www.loverslab.com/files/file/4352-petproject/  , it's been working well, but i'm too early to tell if there are any real conflicts between devious followers. Ideally you want to have a second npc in your home, be it another dismissed follower or the wife.

 

You would have to disable the chastity deal in DF, or perhaps not have to, but it would be a free ride in some cases, and strange in others.

 

I'm a bit suspicious of "that save is locked in". I don't need any mod mucking about with my saves, thanks.

(Clarification, that quote snippet above is from the main page of the mod).

But perhaps it means nothing? Do you know what it does? Can you explain?

 

I notice that the helper plug triggers from 2.5 to 6.0 hours into sleep, so it would be rather problematic with DF. You wouldn't be able to sleep and recover lives at all. I think it would need a hack in DF so that sleeping with spouse over 2 hours is the same as 6 normally - this controls restoration of follower lives and willpower - so ideally fix so only lives are restored - but IIRC, the code is distributed across files in DF so might not be easy to tweak in a hurry. I think I totally rewrote it when I had my modified version, but I've dumped that since Lozeak did his update anyway. Though I might do something similar again).

 

Also, does the days of denial work well with SLD frustration stat?

[sapho888]

It has been a while since I've tried this mod but I'm interested in trying it again.  However, I was wondering if there is any way to "pause" DF if the need arises.   For example, I always run with the DA/ Defeat/ SD+ combo for combat slavery.  And one of the main issues I had when I did use the mod is that if I had a DF and then lost to a bandit, the bandit would become my owner but the DF would still be following me around demanding money as well.  This was rather un-immersive.  Does this mod have a way to detect when SD+ or any other player slavery mod starts and pause DF's mechanics temporarily.  Basically the DF find you again if you ever escaped slavery and say "Did you think I would forget about your debts so easily?"

[Lupine00]

5 minutes ago, sapho888 said:

It has been a while since I've tried this mod but I'm interested in trying it again.  However, I was wondering if there is any way to "pause" DF if the need arises.   For example, I always run with the DA/ Defeat/ SD+ combo for combat slavery.  And one of the main issues I had when I did use the mod is that if I had a DF and then lost to a bandit, the bandit would become my owner but the DF would still be following me around demanding money as well.  This was rather un-immersive.  Does this mod have a way to detect when SD+ or any other player slavery mod starts and pause DF's mechanics temporarily.  Basically the DF find you again if you ever escaped slavery and say "Did you think I would forget about your debts so easily?"

Debug Menu >> Pause 

 

Stops DF stuff happening, leaves everything else alone, no debt updates, no games, and no special dialogs.

 

Click again to unpause. Things will resume.

 

It's not quite as clever as what you suggest, but you can simply use Get Over Here or similar to summon the follower.

[sapho888]

16 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

Debug Menu >> Pause 

 

Stops DF stuff happening, leaves everything else alone, no debt updates, no games, and no special dialogs.

 

Click again to unpause. Things will resume.

 

It's not quite as clever as what you suggest, but you can simply use Get Over Here or similar to summon the follower.

That should probably work.  Thanks for the quick reply  

[Darkwing241]

3 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

You owe me too much money. You just can't look after your gold. I've given you so many chances. Enough is enough.

Please don't go to the Jarl. You can look after the gold, alright?

Do your worst. A contract is a contract.

 

In the latter case, no gold control, but instead the player swaps debt for bounty, and the bounty will definitely be a major crime.

 

Finally, "enslavement" should also require agreement:

 

Poor thing, you've got so many deals that you're effectively my slave now. Less than a slave really.

How about a new contract that says just that, but you won't have to pay any further expenses. If you can afford to buy yourself back, I'll sell you to yourself and you can be free.

Alright, I'll be your slave if it means you stop adding debt.

Never. A contract is a contract. I'll get your money and get rid of these silly deals.

This stuff is sooooo much better than a magic "do whatever I want collar."

 

I absolutely hate the idea of magic collars.  They are the ultimate in lazy writing and IMO totally undermine any real sense of authority or power coming form the follower, or any real sense of submissiveness coming from the pc.  No one would ever put that collar on, but it is entirely realistic that someone signs on for more debt.

 

We have this whole great mod where a follower uses social and monetary pressure to trick the PC into normalizing submissive behavior, and then we replace it with "poof you owe me money," "poof you are a slut," ect.

 

Not to mention that magic slut collars exist in like 20 other mods already. 

3 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Will you agree to <this thing>?

I really shouldn't agree to that, but I guess you're right.

Of course.

 

And if you pick "Of course", it blocks willpower restoration for one sleep (stackable), but the follower gives you a random present (that is usually worth having).

If you simply agree, you don't get a present, but willpower recovery remains normal.

I love this idea too.  I like the idea of submission bringing rewards, but only when the pc is thoroughly broken. 

[Darkwing241]

3 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

A deal to wear a device that gradually increases boob size over time (permanently).

I really like this idea, it should be pretty dang easy to implement with how many other mods have done it.  You could tie it in with some buffs/debuffs too.  

 

We all know a nice rack give a speech buff when talking to men, but if they get too big maybe you start too look like a bimbo and people no longer take you seriously?  Maybe you big boobs give a debuff to archery or armor skills?  So you start out like "wow this is great, thanks follower!" and then as the deal progresses you realize that its making your body better suited to tavern work than adventuring.

 

Maybe a device is not the best way to go?  The deal could be more subtle and deceptive. Food control is a great form of submission that hasn't been included yet.  

 

-Hey let me pick what we have for dinner

-Mixes potion into your food

-you are enslaved she just orders you to drink the potion.

 

The deal could fork to different outcomes too, Maybe instead of giving you breast enlargement potions she puts you on a diet, lowering your weight (super easy implementation) while giving you a speech buff but lowering you melee skills.

 

Other alternatives? Physical surgery? There is something hot about a woman going through physical pain purely to improve her sex appeal, even while in the eyes of some it makes her look trashy and it possibly makes he less physically capable.  I could see a devious follower convincing a PC to go through with it.  Probably too much work to implement in an immersive way though as it would require a clinic.  Maybe if the mod ever grows to include a "followers" guild building where scripted stories could be played out.

 

As an alternative to everything being a deal, maybe the (I always use female) follower uses this device too! Sculpting a perfect body that leaves everyone around drooling with desire or envy.  The PC could notice through a dialog. 

 

"Wow did you see how that guy was looking at you? I wish he would look at me that way"

"I didn't always look like this you know, here try this *magic thing*"

"Wow thanks, you sure are nice to me!"

 

Now here is where things can get devious,  The follower understands this magic far better than the PC and controls her usage to avoid the drawbacks.  The PC gets set to 'bimbo', rather than 'warrior goddess.' It seems like this would fit in well with creating a world where the PC sees herself as less than the follower.

3 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

A deal to wear a device that debuffs speech, substantially (tongue piercing?)

One thing ALL kink mods need is more small stuff.  Not everything in needs to lead to full blown sexual slavery.  

 

A tongue piercing that give a (I think it should be small) speech debuff, doesn't even need a world model.  Maybe with some rare random dialog from NPC's where they notice it when you greet them (just to remind the player it's there).  Or maybe the player's opening dialog with the follower after oral sex is something like "I think he really enjoyed my piercing"

 

Or it could be just a few lines of conversation.

 

"Hey PC I think you would look great with a tongue piercing, I'll even give you a discount"

"What the heck! thith peirthing gave me a withp!"

-5 speech

-the end

 

on it's own small event's like this are nothing, but you add a ton of them and suddenly they are adding a lot of variety.

3 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

A deal to drink alcohol (1) at least once before you can leave an inn.  (2) two bottles before sleeping and one before you leave. (3) whenever the follower says.

(This ones needs RND or something that adds drunkeness to have any real teeth).

Note that the player has to be able to buy the booze.

The party girl transformation! It's a classic!

 

I'm less sure about this one.  While the idea definitely fits in with DF I think to do it right you would need a lot of tie ins.  Drunkeness/drug support, NPC dialog interactions, animations.  Even with all that you would really need some parties to go to.  A drunk party girl who is steered away from her regular life to become a sex object is kinky hot, I dunno about quiet alcoholism, that's just kind of sad and gross.  So you really need FULL support for this one to work out.  It would be really hard to make this anything other than a gold sink disguised as a tedious shopping quest.

 

If I could wish it into existence I would, but I think in the same amount of time Lozeak could make like 100 other cool features that would each be just as fun as this. 

[Lupine00]

8 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

We have this whole great mod where a follower uses social and monetary pressure to trick the PC into normalizing submissive behavior, and then we replace it with "poof you owe me money," "poof you are a slut," ect.

It's definitely the case that ideas evolved as the mod went through releases. Each deal was kind of its own little story, and slavery was something else again. I should imagine that if/when we see 2.0, it will have more narrative coherence.

 

What can be a problem for modders - I believe - is that building the code scaffolding can exhaust their enthusiasm, and the original idea for the mod loses its appeal for them by the time they're in a position to implement it. For me, getting the update process "right" for SLD was draining in a way that even all that tedious MCM code wasn't.

[Lupine00]

7 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

We all know a nice rack give a speech buff when talking to men, but if they get too big maybe you start too look like a bimbo and people no longer take you seriously?  Maybe you big boobs give a debuff to archery or armor skills?  So you start out like "wow this is great, thanks follower!" and then as the deal progresses you realize that its making your body better suited to tavern work than adventuring.

DIY in SLD  

[Lupine00]

7 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

Maybe a device is not the best way to go?  The deal could be more subtle and deceptive. Food control is a great form of submission that hasn't been included yet. 

Oh yeah! I like this. Same deal mechanic, different dialog. Less tedious DD code.

 

7 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

Other alternatives? Physical surgery? There is something hot about a woman going through physical pain purely to improve her sex appeal, even while in the eyes of some it makes her look trashy and it possibly makes he less physically capable.  I could see a devious follower convincing a PC to go through with it.  Probably too much work to implement in an immersive way though as it would require a clinic.  Maybe if the mod ever grows to include a "followers" guild building where scripted stories could be played out.

I guess this is not really "in theme" with Skyrim, but neither is YPS Fashion ... and in a lot of ways this sounds like YPS Fashion.

 

The food idea is definitely the way to go for breast growth. I was thinking earlier about YPS integration, but TBH I personally don't think that mod delivers bang for buck in terms of script+asset load for results in game - but I know a lot of people do love it - it's a totally subjective thing. It's just not that exciting to me.

 

7 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

Now here is where things can get devious,  The follower understands this magic far better than the PC and controls her usage to avoid the drawbacks.  The PC gets set to 'bimbo', rather than 'warrior goddess.' It seems like this would fit in well with creating a world where the PC sees herself as less than the follower.

I think this highly specific narrative direction suits a single custom follower better than a mash-up-your-own-slavery like DF. It's exactly like the sort of thing I was designing for my follower mod. Same with things like a follower guild. It's an idea with a strong flavour, and if you build all the DF stuff on top of it, then DF all gets that flavour, that some may not like.

 

As is, with deals, you enable the ones you like, disable the ones you don't, and the mod has the thematic direction you choose.

 

7 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

One thing ALL kink mods need is more small stuff.  Not everything in needs to lead to full blown sexual slavery. 

The reason I'm hung up on speech in DF is because damaging speech damages your sell prices, and can tip you from net profit, to net loss. It seems small, but it sneaks up on you and indirectly leads to a lot of trouble.

 

In my games, pretty much every case I had to take deals was because speech got seriously debuffed (Parasites), or downtime ate all my cash reserve (Wounds).

So, adding more mechanics like this, creates new ways for that to happen.

 

The perma-loss of speech is just another means to the same end, but in that case it takes time to regain, and possibly by then, you're much tighter on cash.

 

7 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

The party girl transformation! It's a classic!

 

I'm less sure about this one.  While the idea definitely fits in with DF I think to do it right you would need a lot of tie ins.

This would definitely be something that wouldn't work unless you had a needs mod that does drunkeness, or just a drunk mod, and probably DCL too.

 

A lot of DF stuff is better with DCL, so that's not a big ask. Needs are a similar thing, much of DF is better with needs, because it adds expenses, and you might also have to pay for follower needs. I have a mod that does this installed in my LO, don't even recall what it is  

 

I also want to add a drunk mechanic to SLD some day, so either it reads it from a needs mod (or more than one), or implements its own simplistic version.

 

 

The idea for party content - I think that's a mod to itself. Definitely a niche there.

 

7 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

"Hey PC I think you would look great with a tongue piercing, I'll even give you a discount"

"What the heck! thith peirthing gave me a withp!"

-5 speech

-the end

 

on it's own small event's like this are nothing, but you add a ton of them and suddenly they are adding a lot of variety.

Yes, that's a good way to go about it. It's not a big event on its own, seems just atmosphere, but say yes to too many things, and you might end up in trouble all the same. 

 

Other random rationales: a potion or weird ingredient that raises the pitch of your voice, an excessive drinking competition that results in brain damage,  an embarrassing tattoo, a curse that changes your hair color to hot pink or platinum blonde, a toxic ingredient that makes your lips swell up, lip piercings,  a beneficial food that also inflates your butt or adds body weight, a powerful item that gives you access to night vision, but gives you giant manga eyes that creep people out, a magical curse that adds pony, or bunny ears (either might come with a serious speech skill impact) and I guess there's a whole furry theme to mine there, adding a tail, or furry skin, furry feet, weird eyes or even paw-hands (and who knows what the effects of those are?)

 

 

I'm suddenly really happy that I have a bunch of ideas for mechanics that can dynamically tip you into slavery, without just having a boring ramping expenses system (which I tried) or large random expenses (which I've tried), or total reliance on large random expenses driven by DCL (which is probably what most people have right now).

 

The armor set (or rather three sets, because obviously you need it in Light, Heavy and Cloth) would be a bit of work, but should have a good tension in terms of temptation to keep using it, vs the way it amplifies your risks and undermines your money making ability. The first time you play it, you might be taken by surprise, but after that, it still works because there is a meaningful choice.

 

Those deals aren't in DF now, but either:

a) Lozeak releases 2.0 and it has some of them in it, or I add them as modular deals using the new framework.

b) He doesn't, in which case I will add them to existing DF for my personal use, maybe as a patch so others can use.

[Hex Bolt]

Great ideas, Lupine00.  A few comments:

12 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

And if the PC doesn't pay for too long, the follower might go to the Jarl, and swap part of the debt for bounty - so the PC gains a large, nasty bounty to offset some of their debt.

Sounds great in theory (and in real life being threatened with jail would definitely be scary), but in Skyrim isn't swapping debt for bounty a freebie?  Surrender to a guard, go to prison, click the bed to serve your term, and debt is cleared.  With prison overhaul installed this would take a little longer in real time, but you also get to watch some porn.  Prison is unpleasant for the character but not the player.   

 

I like the idea of going to the jarl, but to give it teeth perhaps the jarl should unilaterally amend the contract in the follower's favor.  And possibly send the PC to prison as well for a bit of flavor.  At least negotiating with the follower gets the player something in exchange for a concession, but as chief law-giver the jarl could simply impose something nasty.  Better to take the follower's offer. 

11 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

A deal to wear a device that debuffs speech, substantially (tongue piercing?)

This could also be something like an embarrassing cap that must be worn in cities and towns (leaving the PC free to wear a helm or circlet elsewhere, and best of all this doesn't require use of a new slot).  For example, a cap with donkey ears proclaims the wearer a jackass & a fool, with derogatory NPC comments and a terrible penalty to bartering.  A cap with rabbit ears announces that the wearer wants sex at every opportunity and will not refuse any approach.  It's not a speech penalty, but the wearer will be verrrry popular and have trouble getting much done in town.  The downside is that this would require some scripting.