Paid Modding is gone... or is it?

[Vykroft]

 

Laast is releasing his former-paidmod on nexus, is basically Purewater and others compilated in one mod (Immersive weather, etc). Putting away the hate, he could have hide his mod and never release it. I call that leave with dignity.

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/65242/?

 

Has he said why he's leaving?

 

 

 

Is pretty obvious, to avoid being burned at the stake, he turned to dark side you know...

[BoozeJunky]

 

 

I wonder if Yahtzee will have anything to say about it...

 

He might muse about it on his blog perhabs, but i woulden't expect a video as that's not the sort of content he makes.

 

 

whats a yahtzee ?

 

That'd be Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw of Zero Punctuation fame. A Youtuber essentially, except he's done most of his work on The Escapist rather than on Youtube (though he does have a channel there also).

 

 

I dunno, I can see Gabe and Ben having a row over the topic in one of their Let's Plays or Let's Drown Out videos. He's been doing a lot of Ego Reviews lately, since they feel the usual format has gotten stale, and game news doesn't really trickle into those. Sometimes, but not often.

 

 

[Guest endgameaddiction]

 

So yes, paid mods can have a place, i accept that, absolutely, and if we could make the above things a reality? Then that would be a market-place that would be a benefit to both the creators and the consumers alike.

If there are people who want to be more involved in this process, we should guide them to the target and make it happen. At least write to the devs and publishers to let them know how we want such a system to run if they decide to make one.

 

But i'm also weary.. because i remember hearing about DLC as a concept long ago and thinking "Hey, thats a pretty neat idea!", only to see it perverted and dragged through the mud till it's become the... thing that it is now. I remember thinking the same of the free-to-play model when that first came about, only to see it turn into Dungeon-Keeper Mobile by EA and F2P MicroTransactions beeing put into full-price 60 Bux retail games.

And the same with me. I understand and I see it too. I joke about such instances with my friends because we all see it. It's a bad trend indeed, but we can't always be so glum about it either.

 

But you know, we share a blame in this too. If we keep buying crappy DLC, we'll only get more crappy DLC. Want better DLC? Want no DLC? Want actual complete games? Show that you care, write to the devs and publishers, accept the long wait times, demand better quality material, show their investors its worth banking on!

 

We can't be inactive, let the problems go by, and once it arrives at the doorstep, yell and moan that we didn't ask for this. Those who talk about a war and fighting the good fight, are you really? Are you doing anything to make the situation any better, or are you letting bad practices remain bad practices? If we really want the good stuff, we need to let that be known and take it up with those who make the products we want to see do better. If we do nothing, we will only get more of the same.

 

So in that respect, if this event is a sign that Bethesda wants to move on to an inevitable paid model for some mods, it's up to the experienced mod community to tell them how to do it right.

 

"This is where we are listening, and concerned, the most. Despite seeming to sit outside the community, we are part of it. It is who we are. We don’t come to work, leave and then ‘turn off’. We completely understand the potential long-term implications allowing paid mods could mean. We think most of them are good. Some of them are not good. Some of them could hurt what we have spent so long building. We have just as much invested in it as our players."

 

http://www.bethblog.com/2015/04/27/why-were-trying-paid-skyrim-mods-on-steam/

 

I think it's pretty clear they don't give a crap. If they are part of our community, how come they haven't heard our cries? Nonstop bickering of broken games and broken patches, yet game after game it's the same ongoing encore.

 

Make the change buy shunning them down and not buying anything from them until they do what they get paid to do. Until they actually start listening to us.

 

 

 

Couldn't help but post here again.

[BoozeJunky]

 

 

 People don't buy Bethesda games for the quality of the writing, engine, development or anything else they buy PC games for; they buy them because they can be modded and FIXED for free.  What happens when 'free' is taken away?  Their games tank in the market because they are a joke without mods and no one is going to pay to fix something that should work out of the box in the first place.

 

I don't think that's quite right, considering a substantial amount of Bethesda's sales come from consoles where there is no modding scene. Many of the PC purchases were due to console players seeing all the cool shit that was happening in the mod scene, and re-purchasing the game and it's DLC. If it weren't for modding, I'd certainly still buy the games, but I doubt I'd have spent as much time with them as I have. I think therein lies part of the problem. Bethesda is not only competing against other game companies for a share of the market, they're also competing against themselves. A customer who's too busy downloading and playing the latest Skyrim mods isn't going to be as interested in buying Dishonored, or whatever other new IP they're bringing out. People who wait to purchase their next TES/FO game until the mod scene is established hurt their brand, because it's those first few months sales that the shareholders are really going to be scrutinizing.

 

The mod scene has definitely put a lot of money into Bethesda's pockets, but when viewed from another angle, it's also taking money out of their pockets by over-extending the shelf-life of their products. Skyrim's popularity, and the size and talent of it's mod scene which greatly extended it's longevity, I think took Bethesda a bit by surprise and forced them to turn up the contrast on that fuzzy line of where they're actually making money - and where they're losing money - by being so open and free with the mod scene. Paid mods were merely a way for them to generate continued revenue off of Skryim if their players weren't going to move on to their other products.

 

To clarify for some people, most businesses see the loss of potential profit as the same thing as a loss of actual profit. Whether you're losing money you already have, or losing money you could have had, your business is still poorer for it - less well able to invest in new projects and advertising - and less well able to compete against other companies for the same marketshare. "If you're not growing and expanding, you're dying". Which often just comes off as greed to the customers, which it is, but a justified greed as other companies follow the same principals. I've had enough middle-managers pound this idea into my head during monthly/quarterly employee "motivational round-ups", and I'm sure Kendo that you've heard the same lines before too.

 

I'm not justifying their decision to try to force paid modding on the community, but I can understand the rational behind the decision.

[jacques00]

 

 

"This is where we are listening, and concerned, the most. Despite seeming to sit outside the community, we are part of it. It is who we are. We don’t come to work, leave and then ‘turn off’. We completely understand the potential long-term implications allowing paid mods could mean. We think most of them are good. Some of them are not good. Some of them could hurt what we have spent so long building. We have just as much invested in it as our players."

 

http://www.bethblog.com/2015/04/27/why-were-trying-paid-skyrim-mods-on-steam/

 

 

I think it's pretty clear they don't give a crap. If they are part of our community, how come they haven't heard our cries? Nonstop bickering of broken games and broken patches, yet game after game it's the same ongoing encore.

 

Make the change buy shunning them down and not buying anything from them until they do what they get paid to do. Until they actually start listening to us.

You know as well as I do that what they post on their blog is a bunch of PR damage control nonsense. But that further solidifies my point that there is a huge disconnect between consumer and the corporation.

 

They probably haven't heard our cries because they don't read our blogs, study our reviews, frequent our forums, or watch or videos. They don't know us and they may never will. That's when we have to get on their radar and let them know who we are and what our community wants. Again, write to them, contact them, build an actual line of communication to them. Get connect, be heard, and show them that we are a worth the investment. If not, we will only get more of the same and nothing we want.

 

Boycotting them is just as bad as inaction and serves to solve nothing. Sure, they may lose money, but they will be oblivious to the actual issues because it is never put in their face and they are never constantly put in check. There will be people who boycott today, but come tomorrow, when the next release of TES/FallOut/etc., those same people will probably be the first ones in line to get a copy.

 

[Deman40]

My main complaint was the fact they decided to do this pay system after many mod authors had already put their hard work in for the "community".That would lead to many conflicts here and other Elder Scolls Sites.I'm glad they saw the error of their ways but we know now whats probably coming soon.    

[ZaZ]

 

 

 

 

If i've misunderstood your stance jacques00, it's because you've not made it very transparent to me. Your posts thus far have all been along the lines of asking "Are people not entitled to be paid for their work!?". And the simple answer to that question is "No, not really, not unless someone actually finds that work worthy of payment. It takes two to Tango".

 

That's the rethoric beeing tossed around though, simply appealing to emotion by saying "workers should be paid for their labour!". A sentiment that sounds easy to agree with on the face of it, but this situation is not nearly that cut and dried. Not even remotely.

Sorry for not making my position clear initially--After I realized that, I added the tl;dr. If it seemed like I was one-sided it's because most of the outspoken positions already elaborated on the "why this is bad" perspective, so I felt I didn't need to parrot those lines as it's been said several times. Also, it's not backwards thinking to add some criticism and play devil's advocate to get some of the constructive ideas stirring besides having to result to name calling and finger pointing (not accusing you of that, just pointing out the rationale behind some of the arguments).

 

As for me beeing entirely against paid mods? Let me direct you to a post i made on page 42 of the big "paid mods" thread here, which it seems nobody bothered to read (atleast nobody responded to it): Namely this post.

 

No, i'm not 100% against the idea, but the system beeing put forth was awful on every level, and knowing Valve, having seen how poorly they have handled the whole Greenlight situation, aswell Early-Access and their "any game goes as long as it's backed by some Publisher, nomatter how mercenary they may be" hands off policy, there was no way this system could have been salvaged into something reasonable. It had to be torn down entirely and a strong message sent.

Thanks for the link. That was actually something constructive and I give you props for outlining that out. If there's anything we can agree on, it would be those points and the fact the the campaign Valve and Bethesda had set up was a complete sham. It could have definitely been done a lot better, in my opinion. I am glad it ended quick, but I don't like the way it ended. It should have been executed in a more calm and peaceful manner without the outrage and animosity. Call them on their bullshit and have them take responsibility for their mistake--we didn't need to create a rift within out own community to do it though. All they had to do was to launch an ill-planned campaign and everyone drops their spaghetti and starts painting enemies. That is not what supposed to happen in a strong community.

 

Perhabs now that it has been, something better could come along in it's place. Buuut i'm not optimistic about that if i'm honest, and if i am forced to choose between modding staying wholly unpaid, and having to put up with one of Valve's "ooopsie!" solutions, then i shall firmly stand by the former.

 

 

Paid mods, even on a buggy thing like a Bethesda game, could work in theory. But it has to be done the right way or not at all, or it is my belief that it could only do more harm than good.

Well you might not be optimistic about it (and there's nothing wrong with that), but I also don't think Valve is end-all. Because like scientists, we should test those theories to see if they stand up, and if it's not giving us the proper results, we will have to change some variables and test a new theory until we get it right and advance or be proven wrong and move on.

 

I think a paid model will fit in somewhere, given the current trend of gaming. It might not be for Skyrim, but I'm sure it will pop up elsewhere in future games (if there are any readily moddable games to be had in the future, anyway). However, the main issue is if, as a community, we let it be a constant problem... or we take the effort and make it better than what it initially is. If this is here to stay, we should look at ways of giving it a place (even if it's a small place) and enforce quality control both on the seller and buyer end (and all the points you mentioned in your linked post)--and the earlier we do it, the more prepared we will be to repair any damages that arise in the future. It won't be a positive thing unless we make it positive.

 

I'm all for free mods, but I think paid mods have their place too.

 

 

 

 

 

Clearly we do actually agree on a number of points, and i would like to thank you for the civil discourse.

 

I guess that just highlights the pitfalls of communicating through a purely text-based medium. Without any body-language and vocal-inflections to fly by, it's very easy for people to talk past eachother, even on points they actually agree on.

 

It is especially dangerous when people try to counterweight what they see as a one-sided hug-box, because it's easy to come off as an extremist of the opposite side when they really just wanted people to see both sides of the coin. And i am definately guilty of having done this myself, quite a few times infact

 

 

Alas, the situation as i see it:

 

The system as presented, a system in which anyone could sell a single sword, a single armor, or a bog-standard follower mod for money (and not even get a good deal from Valve/Beth in doing so), was a terrible one, and i think we both agree. It would have been a store full of overpriced rubbish, it would have taken away from the (mostly) healthy free mod-community that existed, as mods that would have been released free went pay-to-play, it would likely have caused some damage to the free flow of information and aid within the previously free community, and to make it all worse, even the people trying to sell their mods would have been unliklely to get much of anything out of it due to the raw deal on offer.

 

In my opinion, it was a raw deal for consumers, it was a raw deal for content creators, and in the long run, it would have undermined consumer confidence in the IP and also proved to be a raw deal for Valve/Bethesda.

 

It was just not good for anybody in the long run, and i'm happy it's gone, atleast for the time beeing..

 

 

But i am not against the idea of extremely talented authors getting paid when they manage to put out something exceptional, even if it's piggy-backing off of another company's IP (IE, when it's a mod). If something like Skywind came out tomorrow, and it was as amazing as we all hope it would be, would i be opposed to paying for it? Well no, i certainly would not!

 

If a mod the size and scope of Faalskar came out next wednsday, only with even more spit-polish because the authors knew they could recoup the cost of booking some studio time to do VA work properly, and put in the extra houers on the project to make it really shine, would i be against paying for it? Ceratinly not!

 

 

So yes, paid mods can have a place, i accept that, absolutely, and if we could make the above things a reality? Then that would be a market-place that would be a benefit to both the creators and the consumers alike.

 

 

 

 

But i'm also weary.. because i remember hearing about DLC as a concept long ago and thinking "Hey, thats a pretty neat idea!", only to see it perverted and dragged through the mud till it's become the... thing that it is now. I remember thinking the same of the free-to-play model when that first came about, only to see it turn into Dungeon-Keeper Mobile by EA and F2P MicroTransactions beeing put into full-price 60 Bux retail games.

 

 

*deep sigh*

 

 

Yeah, that and quite a few more douche-moves by the gaming industry is why i am jaded and resistant to this. And sadly, i can't say that it's not warrented or that i'm just beeing paranoid, because i've seen to many things go horribly bad and abusive in this market to just pass it off as pessimism on my part

 

[afa]

So a new game, fallout 4, release with a paid mod model with a sweeter than 25/75 split would solve the issue?

 

I feel like the whole paid for mod has always been in people's head rather we like to admit it or not, it is just that this little "mishap" finally brings it to light.

The addition of "usage permission" or "use with no monetizing gain" disclaimers are probably foresight in some parts.

[Aydoo]

Laast left.

 

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/65242/?

[Erundil]

 

 

 

Just don't get too comfortable now.

Paid mods WILL RETURN.

They won't try that with Skyrim anymore, but future games are in danger.

It's hard to eradicate an idea, so stay vigilant.

But for now - congratulations to all of us for saving teh internetz

[Coopervane]

So a new game, fallout 4, release with a paid mod model with a sweeter than 25/75 split would solve the issue?

 

Considdering their first attempt went down about as well as a cup of lukewarm mung, i'd be tempted to say no, but then, people have accepted even worse things in pursuit of escapism..

 

 

*shrugs*

 

What do i know, i'm just the rent-boy at this coke-party

[Kendo 2]

Boycotting them is just as bad as inaction and serves to solve nothing. Sure, they may lose money, but they will be oblivious to the actual issues because it is never put in their face and they are never constantly put in check. There will be people who boycott today, but come tomorrow, when the next release of TES/FallOut/etc., those same people will probably be the first ones in line to get a copy.

I know you’re trying to take the highroad here and that’s commendable.  It doesn’t match corporate culture but it is indeed noble.

 

The ONLY reason paid-for-mods was scuttled this time around was because of the huge stink the community caused.  It wasn’t because it was poorly implemented or that they didn’t understand the market.  They just didn’t care.  Suits sitting around a conference table and texting one another care about one thing; the bottom line in sales.  Maybe tenth place down the priority list for them is corporate reputation with point of sale customers.  They don’t care unless it affects sales, but when that happens they move fast.

 

Back in the early 80‘s Coke changed their recipe.  They called it ‘New Coke’ and Coke drinkers hated it.  The Coke exec’s didn’t ask their customers for input before the change and they didn’t care.  It was a disaster for the corporation.  Coke drinkers called, wrote nasty letters, signed petitions and generally raised hell about the change.  New Coke was on the shelf for less than a month before they brought the original recipe back as ‘Classic Coke’.  You have understand this was before 24hr cable news cycles and the internet so life moved at a slower pace then.  In less than a month Coke gave their customers what they wanted and ‘New Coke’ sat on the shelves since hardly anyone was buying it.  The only thing that made the suits relent was their customers bitching about a change they didn’t want.

 

Opening a dialogue with the suits at Bethesda MIGHT be possible, if they want it and are actually interested in what their customers think.  But you have to remember one person is at the helm of the U.S.S Bethesda Ship of Contempt and that is Todd Howard.  HE doesn’t care what customers want or think and he’s said as much on more than one occasion.  How are we supposed to communicate with someone who just wiggles their fingers at us and tells us to go away?  When dealing with people like that (especially in corporations) you have to have leverage, and that is something the community doesn’t have at the board table.

 

What the community does have is the internet and within 96 hours of announcement Bethesda recanted.  That wasn’t because people were nice and trying to negotiate; it was because the internet tore Bethesda a new asshole and they were being made fools of.  Was it polite or politically correct?  Nope, but it was something they understood and couldn’t control so they had to address it and give the community what it wanted.

 

The community swarming the internet like a pack of rabid lemmings is what stopped them from changing something that didn’t need to be changed in the first place.  It was ugly and savage like tundra rodent swarms often are and there were a few instances of cannibalism.  Rats will be rats.  But it worked and it worked well.  I’m fairly sure some of the suits are rethinking Howard’s stance and they understand they’ll have to deal with us one way or another.  I can promise you it won’t be at the board table or even with on-line dialogue.  Corporations just don’t work or think that way, no matter what lessons their customers teach them.

[Nergui]

Do modders deserve to be paid for their efforts, probably. If so, they should seek a market where they will be paid what they deserve for their talents.

 

But the more I thought about the whole paid mods third-party micro-transactions concept for TES/FO or any other games, the more offensive it sounded. We're already being nickel and dimed by game publishers with the stuff they create, yet now they want to do it with game mods? What makes it worse is people support this idea. I guess people are less hostile to micro-transactions than I thought.

 

Skyrim ushered in a golden age of game modding. I have no doubt Fallout 4 will end it when Zenimax tries this again.

[Nergui]

I had some other thoughts.

 

Particularly on the hostility received by those modders who joined the cashshop. I believe free mods should only receive suggestions and encouragment, never hostile criticism. Even weeds can produce beautiful flowers if cared for. But a paid mod third-party micro-transaction is a different species. It's now a commercial product and subject to all that comes with such a thing. The death threats were outright wrong, but the rest is the cost of doing business. As the saying goes, if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

 

Also, after reading Xilver's apology -

http://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/discussions/0/611704730328215676/?tscn=1430236117#c611704730328361802

 

Dude, invading Russia is a bad idea, putting pop-up ads in a game mod is moronic. Seriously, didn't it ever occur to him that putting the most hated thing on the web into a game mod might generate some hostility? Although personally, my reaction was mirth rather than anger and it still makes me smile when I think about it. This site gives out awards for that level of foolishness.

[Leito86]

Although I would probably never participate in it, I support the idea of "premium" just from the perspective of a content creator.

 

The whole notion of mods being free because it's a hobby is nonsense.   If you can do something you enjoy and turn it into a career, more power to you.  If you enjoy taking photos and can turn it into a career, good for you.  You're a talented gamer and can make a buck by streaming your games? Great.

 

I also think it's reasonable for the dev/publisher to get a cut of "premium" mods as they are the ones who fronted the resources to make the game in the first place.  However, I do agree that the 25% cut for the mod authors is robbery and laughable if they expect people to be working full time as modders for their game.

 

 

[Hayleyrose2323]

hm interesting for the hell of it since this is all done and over with im actually trying out the art of the catch. NO I DIDNT BUY IT..i mean..sure i bought it..i..wow dont look good either way huh. Meh.

[Kendo 2]

Well, for all of the 'I deserve to be paid for modding' people there's always Unity.

http://unity3d.com/5

It's multiplatform, has better software and better graphics than anything Bethesda is capable of AND their licensing makes sense.  I was looking at it it earlier and all I could think was 'WOW I can make my own moddable game'.  And it's FREE provided you get the personal edition and do not generate more that $100K per year with their software.  Is anyone modding for cash over at Steam ever going be even in the same Zip Code as 100K per year with their 25/75 split and fucking Steam Dollars as a paycheck?  Didn't think so...

 

And here's a realtime demo they made to show off what the engine is capable of;

http://unity3d.com/pages/the-blacksmith

[jacques00]

 

 

The ONLY reason paid-for-mods was scuttled this time around was because of the huge stink the community caused.  It wasn’t because it was poorly implemented or that they didn’t understand the market.  They just didn’t care.  Suits sitting around a conference table and texting one another care about one thing; the bottom line in sales.  Maybe tenth place down the priority list for them is corporate reputation with point of sale customers.  They don’t care unless it affects sales, but when that happens they move fast.

 

Back in the early 80‘s Coke changed their recipe.  They called it ‘New Coke’ and Coke drinkers hated it.  The Coke exec’s didn’t ask their customers for input before the change and they didn’t care.  It was a disaster for the corporation.  Coke drinkers called, wrote nasty letters, signed petitions and generally raised hell about the change.  New Coke was on the shelf for less than a month before they brought the original recipe back as ‘Classic Coke’.  You have understand this was before 24hr cable news cycles and the internet so life moved at a slower pace then.  In less than a month Coke gave their customers what they wanted and ‘New Coke’ sat on the shelves since hardly anyone was buying it.  The only thing that made the suits relent was their customers bitching about a change they didn’t want.

 

Opening a dialogue with the suits at Bethesda MIGHT be possible, if they want it and are actually interested in what their customers think.  But you have to remember one person is at the helm of the U.S.S Bethesda Ship of Contempt and that is Todd Howard.  HE doesn’t care what customers want or think and he’s said as much on more than one occasion.  How are we supposed to communicate with someone who just wiggles their fingers at us and tells us to go away?  When dealing with people like that (especially in corporations) you have to have leverage, and that is something the community doesn’t have at the board table.

 

What the community does have is the internet and within 96 hours of announcement Bethesda recanted.  That wasn’t because people were nice and trying to negotiate; it was because the internet tore Bethesda a new asshole and they were being made fools of.  Was it polite or politically correct?  Nope, but it was something they understood and couldn’t control so they had to address it and give the community what it wanted.

 

The community swarming the internet like a pack of rabid lemmings is what stopped them from changing something that didn’t need to be changed in the first place.  It was ugly and savage like tundra rodent swarms often are and there were a few instances of cannibalism.  Rats will be rats.  But it worked and it worked well.  I’m fairly sure some of the suits are rethinking Howard’s stance and they understand they’ll have to deal with us one way or another.  I can promise you it won’t be at the board table or even with on-line dialogue.  Corporations just don’t work or think that way, no matter what lessons their customers teach them.

 

Then what do you suggest we do as a community?

 

Yes, sure, sure--we will get back to modding like we should be doing and everything will reach a normal yet temporary equilibrium again, that is nice. But then you know something else will trigger another mass movement. How will we react then?

 

If we give up on saving face and building our own reputation in the eyes of others, and forget trying to make ourselves look more rational, mature and professional than the suits, what do we have left? Should we be forever viewed as rabid animals waiting for the next scandal to tear new assholes? When that next issue that comes along and rustles are jimmies, should we start drawing more lines in the sand and weed out our community of "undesirables" again?

 

 

And yes, as a side interest, I do intend on developing projects for Unity, so thanks for plugging that.  c :

 

[Leito86]

Well, for all of the 'I deserve to be paid for modding' people there's always Unity.

http://unity3d.com/5

It's multiplatform, has better software and better graphics than anything Bethesda is capable of AND their licensing makes sense.  I was looking at it it earlier and all I could think was 'WOW I can make my own moddable game'.  And it's FREE provided you get the personal edition and do not generate more that $100K per year with their software.  Is anyone modding for cash over at Steam ever going be even in the same Zip Code as 100K per year with their 25/75 split and fucking Steam Dollars as a paycheck?  Didn't think so...

 

And here's a realtime demo they made to show off what the engine is capable of;

http://unity3d.com/pages/the-blacksmith

 

If your going to develop a game with Unity, which is going to be much more monumental of a task than modding and of course would no longer considered modding, you're still going to need a distribution platform like Steam/Sony/MS/GOG/etc who will take their cut of your sales.  There is the option of distributing it on yourself but good luck getting sales.

 

The closest thing that Unity has that's comparable to modding is their Asset Store where you can create and upload stock content.  Even then, Unity understandable takes a reasonable cut of the sales.

[Kendo 2]

 @ jacques00

I don’t have a viable solution since ‘modders’ are not a cohesive group that can be easily identified.  We don’t have legitimate spokesman, a solid plan for what we want or anything else that would give us any credibility in a corporate setting.  We’re just rabble hobbists and Valve/Bethesda knows that.

 

My only idea would be a closed message board forum where community leaders (forum owners, admins, utility developers and maybe a few moderators) could meet on neutral ground and hammer out a reasonable proposal.  I wouldn’t invite modders or anyone from the community at large.  Any progress made in this neutral forum could then be reported by the admins on their own respective forums for community feedback.  That would prevent the neutral ground from becoming yet another internet battlefield.

 

After the dust settles from all of that the members of the neutral forum could invite people from Bethesda to view the forum and see what people were thinking about the topics at hand.

 

All of that sounds nice but there are people like Dark0ne who would try to cut their own deals and sell out the community they supposedly represent.  Then there is the unavoidable fact that Nexus and the Official Bethesda forums are they only game sites Bethesda considers legitimate, other than maybe the Alliance.  Every other site is a haven for pirates and porn mods, or at least that is what the Official Forums and Nexus in particular has them thinking.  I doubt Bethesda would be willing to listen to anything Lover’s Lab or VGU has to say so the information on the neutral forum would have to be presented in a way that represents the community as a whole and not just what people like Dark0ne wants to foist as the Gospel.  But for something like this to work Dark0ne and his crew would have to be there because if Bethesda did come knocking they would be looking for them.

 

That’s my suggestion for putting up a respectable front for dealing with Bethesda as a community so they will understand what we are looking for in games...and it’s an idiotic idea and it will never work.  But there it is.

 

@ Leito

Yeah, after digging around it isn't as simplistic as I thought it would be.  BUT it is still doable on a small scale through someone like GOG.  It would be that or I'd have to dump about $10k for hardware to handle a tinker toy server and the licenses for my own platform.  NOT gonna happen.  I still might download it and make my own game though, just for laughs since it's free and Bethesda modding ain't doing it for me anymore.

[Awarlock]

Very mixed feelings about this, but I suppose there was just too much backlash about the manner in which it was being done.

[jacques00]

 

 

 @ jacques00

I don’t have a viable solution since ‘modders’ are not a cohesive group that can be easily identified.  We don’t have legitimate spokesman, a solid plan for what we want or anything else that would give us any credibility in a corporate setting.  We’re just rabble hobbists and Valve/Bethesda knows that.

 

My only idea would be a closed message board forum where community leaders (forum owners, admins, utility developers and maybe a few moderators) could meet on neutral ground and hammer out a reasonable proposal.  I wouldn’t invite modders or anyone from the community at large.  Any progress made in this neutral forum could then be reported by the admins on their own respective forums for community feedback.  That would prevent the neutral ground from becoming yet another internet battlefield.

 

After the dust settles from all of that the members of the neutral forum could invite people from Bethesda to view the forum and see what people were thinking about the topics at hand.

 

All of that sounds nice but there are people like Dark0ne who would try to cut their own deals and sell out the community they supposedly represent.  Then there is the unavoidable fact that Nexus and the Official Bethesda forums are they only game sites Bethesda considers legitimate, other than maybe the Alliance.  Every other site is a haven for pirates and porn mods, or at least that is what the Official Forums and Nexus in particular has them thinking.  I doubt Bethesda would be willing to listen to anything Lover’s Lab or VGU has to say so the information on the neutral forum would have to be presented in a way that represents the community as a whole and not just what people like Dark0ne wants to foist as the Gospel.  But for something like this to work Dark0ne and his crew would have to be there because if Bethesda did come knocking they would be looking for them.

 

That’s my suggestion for putting up a respectable front for dealing with Bethesda as a community so they will understand what we are looking for in games...and it’s an idiotic idea and it will never work.  But there it is.

 

@ Leito

Yeah, after digging around it isn't as simplistic as I thought it would be.  BUT it is still doable on a small scale through someone like GOG.  It would be that or I'd have to dump about $10k for hardware to handle a tinker toy server and the licenses for my own platform.  NOT gonna happen.  I still might download it and make my own game though, just for laughs since it's free and Bethesda modding ain't doing it for me anymore.

 

 

I would agree with that plan--if it were to ever pan out of course. Even though such a course of action is very idealistic, at least it has obvious goals towards a positive solution (better than what we have now, at least). I appreciate the discussion and thanks for sharing your ideas.

 

Best of luck to you with everything.

 

[Darkening Demise]

If we don't fight back everything will go EA route on us and turn PC into mobile gaming.

Low quality and everything behind pay walls.

Want to use a sword? $5!

Want to swing it? $5!

Want sound? $5!

Want blood and gore? $10! this is a 'special item' therefore gets higher price! :D :D :D :D :D :D

[aqqh]

 

 

 

I'm sorry mate, but there is no functional model for paid mods. Especially not one where modders gets 25%, and in order to boost their income they are trying to rob their customers. There is no way you could possibly introduce paid mods in a way that is fair for both modders and users. Either the modder gets too little for too much work, or the customer pays way too much for too little content.

Keep in mind that we're talking about very experienced modders here.

They do know how donations system looks like.

We dont.

Lets not pretend that this is otherwise.

 

They decided that 25% on steam is a better alternative for them. And imo it had to be a lot better since they did not hesitate to risk their reputation.

 

 

Well Chesko wrote what was his motivation, oh wait you should know that.

Well i do know what Chesko hoped for.

It wasn't just for profit.

He thought that if modders would have some money to spare it would be easier to create big scale projects.

Creation of a mod like Falskaar alone is OMFG. But if you can hire some help...

 

Ok i have no idea how falskaar was created. I can only imagine.

 

So i'll tell you how it looks like in Sexlab Sexslaves.

We're constantly looking for voice actresses willing to record and give some life to our characters. But it's not exactly easy to find a girl willing to voice act a mod which is obviously packed full with sexual content.

So atm we have 2 fully voiced followers with great thanks to Carida and Darkminxi (We love you girls!   ).

But if we would be able to offer say 100$ for such recording i have a feeling that we would have 8 of such followers.

[windpl]

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry mate, but there is no functional model for paid mods. Especially not one where modders gets 25%, and in order to boost their income they are trying to rob their customers. There is no way you could possibly introduce paid mods in a way that is fair for both modders and users. Either the modder gets too little for too much work, or the customer pays way too much for too little content.

Keep in mind that we're talking about very experienced modders here.

They do know how donations system looks like.

We dont.

Lets not pretend that this is otherwise.

 

They decided that 25% on steam is a better alternative for them. And imo it had to be a lot better since they did not hesitate to risk their reputation.

 

 

Well Chesko wrote what was his motivation, oh wait you should know that.

Well i do know what Chesko hoped for.

It wasn't just for profit.

He thought that if modders would have some money to spare it would be easier to create big scale projects.

Creation of a mod like Falskaar alone is OMFG. But if you can hire some help...

 

Ok i have no idea how falskaar was created. I can only imagine.

 

So i'll tell you how it looks like in Sexlab Sexslaves.

We're constantly looking for voice actresses willing to record and give some life to our characters. But it's not exactly easy to find a girl willing to voice act a mod which is obviously packed full with sexual content.

So atm we have 2 fully voiced followers with great thanks to Carida and Darkminxi (We love you girls!   ).

But if we would be able to offer say 100$ for such recording i have a feeling that we would have 8 of such followers.

 

 

Faster you would get that money by donation than with valve cut. Seriously why won't anyone set donation with milestones on it?