Paid Modding is gone... or is it?

[Sacremas]

Lot of good people out there that's done good things for the community that don't necessarily have views that coincide with ours. Take Arthmoor, author of Live Another LIfe and oh this thing called the Unofficial patches, he's absolutely through and through vanilla, anything that goes too far away from vanilla and he's not interested in it, if you find a bug in the game that was discovered via using something outside the normal scope of the game, like teleporting or flying, then he's not going to consider fixing it in the Unofficial Patches unless it was also achievable by some guy with only his mods. You can bet he's got the same ideas as Gopher about sexiness in games, but this game or modding scene wouldn't have been the same without him.

[Guest endgameaddiction]

Bring this back on topic so this doesn't get more derailed by us.

 

Both sides of P2M or not P2M make valid points. Whether this really does work or not depends on the community. It depends on each person whether they want to buy a mod or not. I do agree the donate is a much better direction to go with this. And instead of Bethesda looking to Valve to handle this, it would probably be best to just allow authors themselves have control of this P2M. But because these two corporations well together because Valve has increase revenue for Beth by their games and super sales and the workshop promoting mods that do attract mod users and even more new people who are just completely new to the scene. So this is the prime reason why Valve is their right hand in this.

[Kendo 2]

I'm officially brilliant.  All bow to my awesomeness.

 

The only reason I have insight and a way to beat 'the system' is because I was part of it in my twenties and early thirties.  I have real world experience in this sort of corporate grab bullshit and beating them at their own game, provided they can't throw tons of money to stall and make it go away.  Equal footing or holes in their doctrine are the only solutions.  These younger-than-30 types and internet goobs want to pretend they have a clue and don't need to listen to anyone?  GOOD.  They'll fucking fry.

[jacques00]

I'm officially brilliant.  All bow to my awesomeness.

 

The only reason I have insight and a way to beat 'the system' is because I was part of it in my twenties and early thirties.  I have real world experience in this sort of corporate grab bullshit and beating them at their own game, provided they can't throw tons of money to stall and make it go away.  Equal footing or holes in their doctrine are the only solutions.  These younger-than-30 types and internet goobs want to pretend they have a clue and don't need to listen to anyone?  GOOD.  They'll fucking fry.

Good for you, bask in it while it lasts. Your ideas might have never come to light if there wasn't any civil discourse on the subject. The pretentious will learn in time.

 

Once again, though we all might not agree on every point made, your insight was more constructive than it was irrelevant, so thanks for sharing.

 

[Sacremas]

I'm officially brilliant.  All bow to my awesomeness.

 

You kidding? At this point you're a precognitive guru we're hoping will share the lottery numbers with us.

[Warrunner]

 

"This community is disgusting because they expect something that has always been free to remain being free!"

 

 

I mean, throwing around words like entitlement to describe the above? Seriously? Mod designers are entitled to thanks, to respect, and to funds volunteered. They are not entitled to an immensely exploitable system that would have within six months ended up like Greenlight- full of broken, half done cash grab mods that were posted by people who are unaccountable and had no intention of supporting anything they made and whome, thanks to steam being a free service and Paypal accounts being a thing, will just come back and do it again the next time they need to replace the transmission on their car. For every good, well thought out mod that was made by someone with passion who just wanted to make some money on the side, there would be dozens of cash grab do nothing mods. Within six months nobody would be paying for them anyway and the community well would have been so poisoned that everyone who was actually interested would be torrenting the things.

 

It is a system that was broken, and no iteration of it will work until the modders in question are held to legal accountability, and I wonder, how many do you think would be ok with risking class action lawsuit if their mod suddenly stopped working after an official patch ten months after they stopped modding?

 

Can i have next weeks lottery numbers as your predicting the future*

 

*Infact anybody that has predicted the end of modding/the world/life in general can you also supply me next weeks lottery numbers and then i'll come back with whether you can actually see the future or not in a weeks time.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

Sorry, but it would have worked exactly the way Greenlight did, and what I described is what has happened with Greenlight- nobody trusts anything on it anymore.

 

[Nixea]

 

I didn't even realize Gopher had an opinion on LL, can anyone link to a video of his where he talks about it?

 

Let's not make this a Gopher thread, sorry folks.

 

Then again, isn't this horse kinda glue by now? Unless someone (else than Kendo2 who's been brilliant) can offer constructive views on how modding for pay could actually be done in a realistic manner - regardless of if you'd ever pay for a mod, please don't speak for others, I would have paid as much for Falskaar as I did for Dragonborn had it been released that way - this is just going to go over the same thing over and over until someone gets a bad case of butthurt.

 

 

I actually have genuine interest in knowing why he dislikes LL, I'm not a follower of his or anything but up until this point I've never heard of him having an adversion to this site.

[Hayleyrose2323]

 

 

I didn't even realize Gopher had an opinion on LL, can anyone link to a video of his where he talks about it?

 

Let's not make this a Gopher thread, sorry folks.

 

Then again, isn't this horse kinda glue by now? Unless someone (else than Kendo2 who's been brilliant) can offer constructive views on how modding for pay could actually be done in a realistic manner - regardless of if you'd ever pay for a mod, please don't speak for others, I would have paid as much for Falskaar as I did for Dragonborn had it been released that way - this is just going to go over the same thing over and over until someone gets a bad case of butthurt.

 

 

I actually have genuine interest in knowing why he dislikes LL, I'm not a follower of his or anything but up until this point I've never heard of him having an adversion to this site.

 

 

Probably the same problem others do as well, Sexlab Defeat or any other mod like it. Usually thats the thing "OH THEY SUPPORT RAPE!"

[Nixea]

 

 

 

I didn't even realize Gopher had an opinion on LL, can anyone link to a video of his where he talks about it?

 

Let's not make this a Gopher thread, sorry folks.

 

Then again, isn't this horse kinda glue by now? Unless someone (else than Kendo2 who's been brilliant) can offer constructive views on how modding for pay could actually be done in a realistic manner - regardless of if you'd ever pay for a mod, please don't speak for others, I would have paid as much for Falskaar as I did for Dragonborn had it been released that way - this is just going to go over the same thing over and over until someone gets a bad case of butthurt.

 

 

I actually have genuine interest in knowing why he dislikes LL, I'm not a follower of his or anything but up until this point I've never heard of him having an adversion to this site.

 

 

Probably the same problem others do as well, Sexlab Defeat or any other mod like it. Usually thats the thing "OH THEY SUPPORT RAPE!"

 

 

And vanilla skyrim supports mass murder and furtive hunting to near extintion levels . Anyway, I don't understand the mentality behind picking up a bit of something huge and judging the entire thing over that bit you happen to dislike, but that answers my question well enough, thank you.

 

[Warrunner]

 

 

 

 

I didn't even realize Gopher had an opinion on LL, can anyone link to a video of his where he talks about it?

 

Let's not make this a Gopher thread, sorry folks.

 

Then again, isn't this horse kinda glue by now? Unless someone (else than Kendo2 who's been brilliant) can offer constructive views on how modding for pay could actually be done in a realistic manner - regardless of if you'd ever pay for a mod, please don't speak for others, I would have paid as much for Falskaar as I did for Dragonborn had it been released that way - this is just going to go over the same thing over and over until someone gets a bad case of butthurt.

 

 

I actually have genuine interest in knowing why he dislikes LL, I'm not a follower of his or anything but up until this point I've never heard of him having an adversion to this site.

 

 

Probably the same problem others do as well, Sexlab Defeat or any other mod like it. Usually thats the thing "OH THEY SUPPORT RAPE!"

 

 

And vanilla skyrim supports mass murder and furtive hunting to near extintion levels . Anyway, I don't understand the mentality behind picking up a bit of something huge and judging the entire thing over that bit you happen to dislike, but that answers my question well enough, thank you.

 

 

 

I would guess its the same reason many people don't like the BDSM scene, they make the assumption its something more than simply fantasy.

 

[Sacremas]

Yeah that's most likely exactly it, he/they heard about Defeat, Sanguine's Debauchery etc along with More Nasty Critters and condemned the whole forum for it. The much more vanilla styled Amorous Adventures and mods like SkyKids have probably attracted a lot more members than rape mods did.

[Kendo 2]

Fucking Dark0ne in this piece.  He lies three times in less than an hour and then has the balls to say at 1:10 on the clock that decisions at Nexus are made by consensus.  Uh-huh...We all know that’s true. 

 

He changes the Nexus TOS to suit his goddamned needs.  So if a member there signs on to whatever he deems reasonable on a specific date they are liable for any changes he makes after the fact.  He just changed the Nexus TOS to accommodate his duplicity in mods-for-cash and he didn’t announce it or ask anyone for input.  The Nexus TOS ‘needed’ to be changed so he changed it.  So much for his definition of ‘general consensus’.  For all of his ‘support’ for the plebian mod masses he was more than ready to take a giant shit on them.

 

So on January 1st you agree to the Nexus TOS and on February 1st he changes it and you are subject to that TOS and NOT THE ONE YOU AGREED TO on January 1st.  And when you challenge his bullshit he bans you (like he did me for the exact same reason).  In Nazi Germany all of the trains ran on time...unless they didn’t...and then you had better shut the fuck up and just accept it.

Dark0ne is a corporate model rat and fucking stooge.  He’s said as much if anyone is really paying attention...and he’s presented as a fucking ‘expert’ according to this video; a video made by someone who admits they don’t understand the Skyrim modding scene. 

 

Sad they spent two hours slathering each other for a Wesson Oil version of naked Twister.  Sadder still that I wasted two hours of my life listening to them since it was just blather and no solutions for modders getting fair compensation for the paid mods scheme.

[CrossFT]

 

So, I guess I'll break my years of lurking silence on the internet for this.. I have pages of thoughts, but I'm going to just comment on this video.

It starts out with some middle minded question and answers, but by the end it feels more like a circle jerk. TB admitted to not being much of a Skyrim player let alone a mod user, so he missed a few questions he should have presented as well as playing much of a devils advocate. He has the opinion of one person who has to be careful about pissing people off cause ad-block is easy to use.. and another modder who is all for paid modding, even came back to modding for it and accused anyone being against it of being "the angry mob" of children. And it isn't he just said some people who were agianst it were an "angry mob", he never made a distinction or even attempted to make a distinction between the people who started throwing death threats and vile around, vs the still significant number of people who disliked the idea but did it in a civil way, maybe heated at times but civil. It also doesn't include the argument of modders who didn't like the idea or someone who uses mods without being a modder and why they didn't like or like it.

 

It's a very incomplete arguement and it annoys me that it's presented as being the actual other side to his first video, in which he missed alot of the issues that have been discussed around the internet because he isn't a mod user, modder, or even much of a Skyrim player.

[Kendo 2]

\o/ CrosFt questions it too! \o/

At least I'm not alone...but I am (almost)...in a Common Sense paid-to-mod desert.  If a twinkey like Dark0ne can scam and lie what makes the uninformed must-be-paid-to-mod crowd think they have a chance at a fair deal when they listen to people like him?

[CrossFT]

On an additional note to it, in relation to Bethesda and Valve, they both sounded more like people who were hoping to get hired by them one day so best not to risk calling them out. I've generally been somewhat neutral on my opinion of Valve since their start, it's been steadily declining and this last bit means they won't ever see a dollar from me. I'm taking my cash to gog.com and greenmangaming.. I really hope GoG gets their platform off the ground cause it's not enough to take some money away from Valve/Steam, but to also create a viable alternative for true competition.

 

[bob11]

 

Fucking Dark0ne in this piece.  He lies three times in less than an hour and then has the balls to say at 1:10 on the clock that decisions at Nexus are made by consensus.  Uh-huh...We all know that’s true. 

 

He changes the Nexus TOS to suit his goddamned needs.  So if a member there signs on to whatever he deems reasonable on a specific date they are liable for any changes he makes after the fact.  He just changed the Nexus TOS to accommodate his duplicity in mods-for-cash and he didn’t announce it or ask anyone for input.  The Nexus TOS ‘needed’ to be changed so he changed it.  So much for his definition of ‘general consensus’.  For all of his ‘support’ for the plebian mod masses he was more than ready to take a giant shit on them.

 

So on January 1st you agree to the Nexus TOS and on February 1st he changes it and you are subject to that TOS and NOT THE ONE YOU AGREED TO on January 1st.  And when you challenge his bullshit he bans you (like he did me for the exact same reason).  In Nazi Germany all of the trains ran on time...unless they didn’t...and then you had better shut the fuck up and just accept it.

Dark0ne is a corporate model rat and fucking stooge.  He’s said as much if anyone is really paying attention...and he’s presented as a fucking ‘expert’ according to this video; a video made by someone who admits they don’t understand the Skyrim modding scene. 

 

Sad they spent two hours slathering each other for a Wesson Oil version of naked Twister.  Sadder still that I wasted two hours of my life listening to them since it was just blather and no solutions for modders getting fair compensation for the paid mods scheme.

 

 

I actually think Nick was worse than Dark0ne in the video.  Anyone who didn't want Valve paid mods is apparently a terrorist or an entitled 12yr old.  Also, if you don't endorse, we don't care about your opinion, there's a hierarchy of self importance to be observed.   All that was good to know.

 

Also, TB couldn't really do much about all that.

[bjornk]

I think both guys had a lot of inconsistent ideas and arguments, but the SMIM guy really annoyed me. He was like "I just returned to modding to sell an updated version of my mod for a dollar. Believe me, it's not greed!".

[CrossFT]

 

 

Fucking Dark0ne in this piece.  He lies three times in less than an hour and then has the balls to say at 1:10 on the clock that decisions at Nexus are made by consensus.  Uh-huh...We all know that’s true. 

 

He changes the Nexus TOS to suit his goddamned needs.  So if a member there signs on to whatever he deems reasonable on a specific date they are liable for any changes he makes after the fact.  He just changed the Nexus TOS to accommodate his duplicity in mods-for-cash and he didn’t announce it or ask anyone for input.  The Nexus TOS ‘needed’ to be changed so he changed it.  So much for his definition of ‘general consensus’.  For all of his ‘support’ for the plebian mod masses he was more than ready to take a giant shit on them.

 

So on January 1st you agree to the Nexus TOS and on February 1st he changes it and you are subject to that TOS and NOT THE ONE YOU AGREED TO on January 1st.  And when you challenge his bullshit he bans you (like he did me for the exact same reason).  In Nazi Germany all of the trains ran on time...unless they didn’t...and then you had better shut the fuck up and just accept it.

Dark0ne is a corporate model rat and fucking stooge.  He’s said as much if anyone is really paying attention...and he’s presented as a fucking ‘expert’ according to this video; a video made by someone who admits they don’t understand the Skyrim modding scene. 

 

Sad they spent two hours slathering each other for a Wesson Oil version of naked Twister.  Sadder still that I wasted two hours of my life listening to them since it was just blather and no solutions for modders getting fair compensation for the paid mods scheme.

 

 

I actually think Nick was worse than Dark0ne in the video.  Anyone who didn't want Valve paid mods is apparently a terrorist or an entitled 12yr old.  Also, if you don't endorse, we don't care about your opinion, there's a hierarchy of self importance to be observed.   All that was good to know.

 

Also, TB couldn't really do much about all that.

 

 

I agree he was worse, he was also very quick to be very agreeable with dark0ne. It was like an "anti-peasent" lord trying to schmooze a king who was in turn trying to be politically correct with businesses and his kingdom.

 

[Coopervane]

So, I guess I'll break my years of lurking silence on the internet for this.. I have pages of thoughts, but I'm going to just comment on this video.

It starts out with some middle minded question and answers, but by the end it feels more like a circle jerk. TB admitted to not being much of a Skyrim player let alone a mod user, so he missed a few questions he should have presented as well as playing much of a devils advocate. He has the opinion of one person who has to be careful about pissing people off cause ad-block is easy to use.. and another modder who is all for paid modding, even came back to modding for it and accused anyone being against it of being "the angry mob" of children. And it isn't he just said some people who were agianst it were an "angry mob", he never made a distinction or even attempted to make a distinction between the people who started throwing death threats and vile around, vs the still significant number of people who disliked the idea but did it in a civil way, maybe heated at times but civil. It also doesn't include the argument of modders who didn't like the idea or someone who uses mods without being a modder and why they didn't like or like it.

 

It's a very incomplete arguement and it annoys me that it's presented as being the actual other side to his first video, in which he missed alot of the issues that have been discussed around the internet because he isn't a mod user, modder, or even much of a Skyrim player.

 

Yeah, pretty much this.

 

 

TB was not a good person to host this, because it's not just a case of him beeing "not much of a Skyrim player", rather, he has said since the game came out that he didn't like it at all (he usually referrs to it as "an ocean with the depth of a puddle") and hasen't played more than 20 houers of it tops.

 

I respect the hell out of TB, don't get me wrong, but in this case his knowledge of the game and it's community was so little that he was basically forced to just nod at whatever the "experts" he brought in would say.

 

And who were the experts? Nexus owner Dark0ne who was only all to happy to try and find an angle to profit off of this, and a Nexus-exclusive modder who was hoping to sell his mod on SWS, and who was probably intimidated by Dark0ne beeing there just on the off chance that he might offend him and loose his Nexus account in the process.

 

 

There was no voice for the opposite side, there was no voice for anything but the Nexus community, and TB didn't know the topic well enough to ask the tough questions. So we got a circle-jerk, pretty much, one in which the first few minutes did raise some valid discussion and critisism of the system, but past that it rapidly devolved into Nexus politics as usual, and a onesided condemnation of the opposition, which were not there to lend their voice or defend their position.

 

 

But what do i know, i am apparently just a 12 year old 4chan-mobster, who only spoke up to troll, and who has never contributed anything at all. Atleast according this podcast i am

[Kendo 2]

I think this topic has pretty much ran its course and I'm bowing out unless someone else comes up with a viable solution for modders to get paid and not get fucked OR fuck anyone else in the process.

 

My final thoughts: We're going to have to deal with Bethesda and whoever they designate (probably Valve) to make modding viable for everyone.  Be wary of people like Dark0ne, Youtube and Blog pundits and those who seek to make a blind profit off of the community at large.  Always question them and always challenge their opinions.  NEVER agree to anything that sounds too good to be true and never believe anyone who tells you what you want to hear.  Mod for yourself and your love of the game and do a good job or the people who support your efforts.  Do the right thing.  And if you can't do the right thing, do the next right thing.

[Sacremas]

I had a thought now that might also be considered, apologies if this has already been hashed apart.

 

The Idiot Noob's Point of View.

 

The Idiot Noob has never installed a mod before, unless you count official DLC; he thinks they sound scary and would break his game, he only trusts official sources. Now here along comes SMIM for 1 dollar, most of which goes to the makers of his game! This adds legitimacy and makes him think it's somehow a lot less risky than downloading SMIM off the Nexus. The Idiot Noob downloads it, and the other pay for mods. He never touches the free ones, because they are not legitimate and fully play tested and set up to work with his game.

 

Now here's the scary part. The Idiot Noob? He's in the majority. There are more people like him than there are like us. Because believe it or not, the world is made up of mostly stupid people. Fun fact.

 

I think you can see the issue(s) here probably. I'm not sure if the Idiot Noob's point of view is a vote for pay for modding because it'll make him risk modding his game, or a vote against, because none of those mods were set up to work with each other or be guaranteed to work with his game despite their seeming legitimacy. And when he runs into the problems any modder does, without the knowledge to do anything with it (like cleaning his masters, setting up SKSE, etc) the Idiot Noob becomes angry.

[Kendo 2]

I never considered the 'dumb ass factor' when making comparisons to existing pay-for-content markets.  That's a huge oversight on my part because I know first hand how stupid some -downloaders can be.  The Bethesda indemnity clause doesn’t account for 3rd software and they’ll have to change that since that is what player-made content is.  All the more reason to have a solid pay-for-mods platform that is fair and equal to all parties concerned.  Concerning fair and equal, Bethesda doesn’t deserve 75 net of the possible 100 for a mod.  Bethesda has already been paid when their end users bought the game and official DLCs; that includes the people who mod it.  Bethesda deserves a market value share (33.3%) and nothing more.  And Bethesda's 3rd is what's split to pay the platform, not the modders' share.

[cornbreadtm]

Shit, I forgot about those idiots. Ignorance is an enemy I like to pretend doesn't exist. But yes, they are the vast majority, we even "nurse" some here every once in a while since they want to install complex (2 steps or more) mods like SexLab.

 

I really wish you didn't bring that up lol. Now I have a permanent frown on my face from think about how they will believe that Texture packs and armor addons have broken their game and want a refund...

 

We'd need someone like us working for Valve to tell them to "Start at the tip and work your way down the shaft..."

[Gameplayer]

I was an idiot noob back in the day.

 

Gawd I broke my games so many times lol.

 

That was years and years ago now. 

 

Just over the last few days I merged about 100 ESP's for my Skyrim and I know that isn't something very many people would be able to manage.  Oh btw my mega merge ESP had to have edits and its not like the whole thing was automated, I had to examine this thing and build it up over time observe load order and conflict winners over the course of many hours.  Net result has been stability and since I took such a close look at all of the mods in my LO, I'm very aware of how well made those ESP's really are and honestly some of these really "good" mods need some more polish before I would put a stamp of for sale.

 

I guess it doesn't matter look at the bugs in the base platform.

 

 

Anyways I've been listening to the discussion in the linked video and yes its unfortunate that there isn't an LL member on that discussion.

[Sacremas]

Another thing that came to me as I was browsing porn just now (lot of revelations that way!); In all the furore about assets being stolen and uploaded behind paywalls with this whole issue, I just realized that this regularily happens to Lover's Lab and there's not really much we can do. 3D Animated porn sites pop up all the time, usually Russian sites with cobbled together deviant art images and the like up for a subscriber's fee... and on the previews I quite often see things that look a lot like Skyrim with Devious Devices, or a New Vegas looking girl being fucked by a monster, presented as original art when they're screenshots and sold. Hell some may even get sales because people recognize the game and thinks the mods are behind the subscriber's fee. And there goes the whole thing with most of the world being composed of morons again.