terrain182 Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 they took an arrow on their knee.. gods be praised
jxm Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 Really? They pulled it off? I have to admit that this suprises me a lot. Though yeah, there will be other attempts for this in the future but... but nevertheless, I have to smile a little about this, though some attacks against soem modders, not sure if that was really the right way to adress them. Too much hysteria on both sides for me... At least I can stop now to hoard my Skyrim-Musthave mods like some paranoid squirrel ...
mellowtraumatic Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 This was introduced through the backdoor. As soon as they allowed DONATIONS, it started to be about the money. And all the negative things that come with money, like ENVY and GREED.A little example:Modder A is female (or pretends to be), writes 150 posts every day on Nexus in pink fonts with lots of smilies and hearts. Her mods are mostly stuff like player homes and other easy CK drag&drop that a 10 year-old could have made just as good. Modder B is ?? (we don't know his/her gender), only writes on forums when absolutely necessary and when he/she does so, then only completely emotionless like "Lt. Commander Data". His/her mods are highly sophisticated scriptwork that took thousands of hours to create, revolutionary and the ultimate avantgarde with nothing coming even close. So now Modder A is getting 15000$ Donations. While Modder B is getting 200$ Donations. So let's not get too deep into why A is getting any donations at all for shovelware like player houses (advertising through social and sexual attraction etc). Instead let us try to see what B is thinking. Confronted with an imaginary PAYCHECK, suddenly it seems pretty unfair don't you think? Of course you'd be envious when all the other modders with their (excuse me) tiny little immersion mods à la Wet & Cold or player homes are cashing in trucks full of money, while you get the occasional peanuts thrown into your hat. So who had this fucking stupid idea to allow donations? Money is money, it does corrupt people's minds no matter if you have a donation system or a pricetag. As a modder A, I kinda have to take offense. I don't care for pink and I've never once turned on the donation option on any of my mods.
Nepro Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 Professors get paid less than New York City garbageman. My American History professor used to be garbageman. That's just not right. Of course, it's NYC garbage - hazard pay? Dunno but I bet somebody who has the power to plunge the city into pool of plague gotta have decent bargaining power if you know what I mean.
badbat111 Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 Just found this.... a bit dated but... http://www.gamespot.com/articles/valve-sued-by-australian-consumer-watchdog-over-st/1100-6421983/ Does anyone know what happened afterwards? thats the reason why they stopped selling mods good old ausies they have the balls to put shits in there place
Content Consumer Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 Just found this.... a bit dated but... http://www.gamespot.com/articles/valve-sued-by-australian-consumer-watchdog-over-st/1100-6421983/ Does anyone know what happened afterwards? thats the reason why they stopped selling mods good old ausies they have the balls to put shits in there place I wonder if Yahtzee will have anything to say about it...
badbat111 Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 Just found this.... a bit dated but... http://www.gamespot.com/articles/valve-sued-by-australian-consumer-watchdog-over-st/1100-6421983/ Does anyone know what happened afterwards? thats the reason why they stopped selling mods good old ausies they have the balls to put shits in there place I wonder if Yahtzee will have anything to say about it... whats a yahtzee ?
Xpyke Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 [...] As a modder A, I kinda have to take offense. I don't care for pink and I've never once turned on the donation option on any of my mods. No need to as your are not asking for donations, I think the poster was refering for those "gamer gulz" that just use sexual means to gain attention and money, as you never done it you're not "modder A", just a modder that makes homes ^^
Vykroft Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 I'd really like to see some examples of a successful paid modding environment, which is as big as, let's say the modding scene of any Bethesda title, before I can decide whether or not paid and free modding are mutually exclusive. I currently think that they can't live together. I think you would be surpriced check out mount and blade community. How paid and free mods go side by side without any ill effects. check out this mod: https://www.taleworlds.com/en/Games/FireAndSword mount and blade have shown what is to do it right way without having any of the hassle that Elderscrolls got for introducing this. This professional group joined up after taleworlds introduced paid system for mods. With Fire & Sword is a standalone game, not a commercial mod, but yes, Mount & Musket, Brytenwalda were free mods that turned into commercial products, and if I'm not mistaken they still exist as a free mod. It's a good way to utilize modders talents, but the situation we have here is a bit different. If I'm not mistaken, Bannerlord will use the Steam Workshop for distribution of mods. We'll see how things turn out for M&B modding scene when the game has been released. True, in all Mount & Blade games, professional modders had created very good mod, but competition also restrict the fraternity between modders, and if you don't believe me try to ask for the source files for PoP mod... I'm tired of dealing with the compiled .txt because of that, script changes with native module, compile with native, compare with PoP txt (hundred of lines) and check if it works inside the game. I use to browse taleworlds forum every single day and the sharing goodwill that you can easily find here is very difficult to find there. I still think that they way they did it, is the right way to manage the transition between an indie modder an a sub-indie-developer. But if that means the end of the spirit of modding we are losing something more important.
pornphile Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 Funny, you still don't get it. I've been trying to tell you that if you support paid mods, it will harm free mods in return. Just like in the link you've posted, free mods will become "freebies" of lesser quality. What I said in not so many words: issue of quality. I understand you think free = inferior. Arguing semantics Stealth edit Changing the nature of the argument If you don't want to support paid mods, I can respect that.
mellowtraumatic Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 No need to as your are not asking for donations, I think the poster was refering for those "gamer gulz" that just use sexual means to gain attention and money, as you never done it you're not "modder A", just a modder that makes homes ^^ Okay, good.
dsfargeg222 Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 It'll be back once Valve can figure out how to make it more palatable to the public while doing nothing for the modding community.
Coopervane Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 I wonder if Yahtzee will have anything to say about it... He might muse about it on his blog perhabs, but i woulden't expect a video as that's not the sort of content he makes. whats a yahtzee ? That'd be Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw of Zero Punctuation fame. A Youtuber essentially, except he's done most of his work on The Escapist rather than on Youtube (though he does have a channel there also).
Content Consumer Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 He might muse about it on his blog perhabs, That's what I'm hoping for.
guk Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 No need to as your are not asking for donations, I think the poster was refering for those "gamer gulz" that just use sexual means to gain attention and money, as you never done it you're not "modder A", just a modder that makes homes ^^ Alright before more people misunderstand that post: I was merely drawing a caricature based on several separate observations. This was in no way meant to be chauvinistic or aimed at any particular person. A semi-fictional example why i believe that donations are wrong as well, and that they have only served to pave the way to today's drama. As reply to the post i quoted about "deserving to be paid". edit: There's nothing wrong with 10 year olds doing house mods with the CK btw Usually folks at that age are very creative. When i was 10 years old myself, computers were still called C=64 and Amiga 500. So i had no opportunity to do anything like this.
trpd Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 I'm both happy and sad about it. Happy because clearly the system was bad - the share split sucked and steam workshop is not even usable for real modding. Sad for every modder that got tempted but the opportunity to earn their keep by doing something they love (real modders not the horse armor ones) and now got shit all over themselves. Shame none was there to tell them that charging for something people already use for free is not good idea. But maybe something good will come out of it - that is rising awareness about donations.
pinky6225 Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 The current implementation obviously had to go - on that everybody agrees - so it went. Far too many practical issues. Doesn't feel like much of a victory to me, more like waking up with a hangover. My initial reaction to any of it was emotional: disgust, over principles. It felt good to rage a bit. But over the past few days people I respect have given opinions that did not match mine, and I could still respect them. They approach these issues from different backgrounds. Some of us believe there are unwritten rules against pay, some don't. So far they coincided with the written ones, the EULA, so that was easy. Now it's not, not even now the system's canned. There's still a rift and we gotta mend it, because as always we do the fixing. And that's gonna require an entire change in tone. Thousands and thousands of posts all around the web where people tell others they're stupid, immoral, pretentious or selfish to have different opinions, emotions or wants than their own. Hard not to do at least a little of that, I know, no matter where you stand. We pretend like we know what really goes on at Beth HQ and what the ultimate goal is. If we're broken, let's start by fixing some of that. You can't force everybody to think exactly like you. Would agree with this, when the threads first appeared their were a some who did actually want to discuss the concept but these quickly degenerated into rants from people saying how they were entitled to free stuff and when you queried this no answer. I still think paid for mods have potential mainly for new users to skyrim since the workshop does all the work for them so paying what 0.20p for a mod that needs SKSE and FNIS and having both deployed via the workshop would remove an awful lot of the problem threads that you see in the trouble shooting sections.
mellowtraumatic Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 No need to as your are not asking for donations, I think the poster was refering for those "gamer gulz" that just use sexual means to gain attention and money, as you never done it you're not "modder A", just a modder that makes homes ^^ Alright before more people misunderstand that post: I was merely drawing a caricature based on several separate observations. This was in no way meant to be chauvinistic or aimed at any particular person. A semi-fictional example why i believe that donations are wrong as well, and that they have only served to pave the way to today's drama. As reply to the post i quoted about "deserving to be paid". edit: There's nothing wrong with 10 year olds doing house mods with the CK btw Usually folks at that age are very creative. When i was 10 years old myself, computers were still called C=64 and Amiga 500. So i had no opportunity to do anything like this. I was actually a little more upset by the house mod comments. I've of the mind that house mods are easy. Good house mods, not so much. Man, I wish I had gotten into this stuff at that age. I was born way too late it seems. I didn't start modding until I was 39, a pretty late bloomer.
Kendo 2 Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 I'd really like to see some examples of a successful paid modding environment, which is as big as, let's say the modding scene of any Bethesda title, before I can decide whether or not paid and free modding are mutually exclusive. I currently think that they can't live together. The only one I can think of where models, textures, processes and scripts are sold is the Daz/Poser community on sites like Renderosity. Even then, they have their own unique problems. Why those types of communities thrive (even in today's economy) is the software licenses are real contracts and not the Bethesda/Valve 'because we said so' dubious screw jobs. Modding for money with Bethesda/Valve in the mix is like playing five card stud where the house gets five cards and the modders get one. Modders ain't gonna win. What blows my mind is people pretending that modding can be a career and modders deserve to be paid. That same type of reasoning is why fastfood workers think they deserve $15.00 an hour and working the fry station at Jack-in-the-Box is a fucking career. Modding and fastfood are entry level 'jobs' and something you can't count on to make a living at. Some people don't want to see it for what it is. That's on them and fortunately the paid modding advocates are in the minority. The best possible scenario for paid modding would be Bethsda charging as much money for the construction kit as the game itself. If modding isn't going to be free then make it REALLY not free. People don't buy Bethesda games for the quality of the writing, engine, development or anything else they buy PC games for; they buy them because they can be modded and FIXED for free. What happens when 'free' is taken away? Their games tank in the market because they are a joke without mods and no one is going to pay to fix something that should work out of the box in the first place.
Nergui Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 Just found this.... a bit dated but... http://www.gamespot.com/articles/valve-sued-by-australian-consumer-watchdog-over-st/1100-6421983/ Does anyone know what happened afterwards? thats the reason why they stopped selling mods good old ausies they have the balls to put shits in there place I wonder if Yahtzee will have anything to say about it... whats a yahtzee ? Listen carefully at 0:58 and you will discover the origin of a meme. Something he will forever regret saying.
guk Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 I was actually a little more upset by the house mod comments. I've of the mind that house mods are easy. Good house mods, not so much. Man, I wish I had gotten into this stuff at that age. I was born way too late it seems. I didn't start modding until I was 39, a pretty late bloomer. No a good house mod is not easy I admit that the post does sound condescending about that, which was to support the caricature part. Comparing the actual quality, required qualification, user appreciation and all other objective criteria of a mod, then hold that against the resulting donations, just speaks how unfair and segregating the donation system is. This is bound to cause envy and jealousy. I also remember building my own wizard towers and houses in Morrowind, with its own dungeon and caves beneath. Lots of work which i, btw, only made for myself. I was smoking pot 24/7 at that time so my memory is a bit hazy, but that gets pretty much to the point where the fun of modding lies. Oh and while we're off-topic on house mods, i have never used any custom player homes in Skyrim. Mostly because none of them had the "automatic item management" systems like we have it in Fallout New Vegas. I always just used vanilla Breezehome since you can park your "convenient" horse right in front of it so you can carry and dump all your items there.
jacques00 Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 So the steps of concepting, modeling, UVing, texturing, skin weighting, animating, transferring assets, level design, quest building, dialogue writing, audio recording, audio tuning, audio editing, and quality control are not "services" rendered? The paying customer took one look at this thing, said "This does not benefit me in any way, shape or form. This is just yet another way for the gaming industry to try and suck the last few quarters out of my pockets, and after they have already taken so much!", and then revolted violently. So there's your answer jacques00, the paying customer said: "NO!". This hackneyed scheme was only ever going to benifit a very small handfull of modders (due the whole monthly quota thing, only the biggest fish were going to see any paydays), and of course Valve and Bethesda who were taking the lions share (or all of the share, if the mod didn't meet quota). What was the incentive for the paying customer? To be nickled and dimed for every individual armour or sword mod like some bad free-to-play game, only the game wasen't free? How's that a good deal for the paying customer? There was not a single item on that cashshop that was actually worth the money (based on? The worth, quality and content of officially licensed DLC, aswell the value of the parent game and it's DLC), and there was hardly going to be. Maybe a small handfull after a long time, but that doesen't really offset all the Horse-Armour beeing peddled at far too big a cost to the consumer. And we're not stupid, we all knew that this was going to be content that wasen't given to us at a minor fee, as much as it was content beeing taken away from the free side of modding. So again, how did that benefit the paying customer? We knew it didn't, we knew it woulden't, and so we didn't want it! The one and only way that this could have been a benefit to the paying customer, was if every Steve and Jane coulden't sell just any junk, but rather, that only mods of exceptional quality and content density could be sold, giving modders and incentive to make more mods of such high quality, and the customer would also benifit from the creation of exceptional content (assuming it'd be sold at a fair price). But that's not what the system was, that is not what it was promoting or what it would deliver. Anyone could see that, and that what it was giving us would always have been a worse deal to the customer than what we had before (nevermind all the deeper worries about how it would likely change the modding community and such). Every transaction involves both a seller and a buyer, and for a good transaction to take place both of those parties must be satiesfied with the arrangement. What you and every other proponent of this system seems to do is focus entirely on the benefits and rights of the seller, and utterly forgetting that there is also a buyer in this equation, a buyer who also has wants and rights, and who must also agree to this system before it could ever succeed and be a mutually beneficial and sustainable system. We've already established that the Valve system did not work because it was an obvious cash grab scheme. There was no question about that and I was in no way, shape or form defending that practice. So discussing what was advertised and sold in the store is a moot point. You've misunderstood my stance on the matter. I believe hard work and attention to quality and support is deserving of pay, but I never said there should be any kind of enforced pay-wall of any kind. The user still has the choice to say "no" and go elsewhere if they feel the mod isn't worth downloading. I am accepting of the fact that they can coexist and that there is nothing wrong with a paying a person for the work they've done. I never said anything abut shafting the buyer or any such nonsense. I know how transactions work. You seem to focus on only the wants and rights of the buyer and shaft the seller. I don't see why this can't be a balanced equation. This is based on a assumption that all mods will be of shit quality and will always be shit quality. Well fuck any modder who will try to make any high quality, constantly supported, original mod assets at all then. I agree with all that you've stated, it just has little to do with what you quoted me on (I essentially asked if such services were worth paying for, and you shrugged it off with how much of an obvious failure the Workshop model was). Mostly, however, I agree with your second to last paragraph and if this pay system were to work, this is what we should focus on. If you run into shit quality, what will you do? Would you not try your best to avoid it? Will you not strive to make the market better by only trying and buying the quality mods? Or will you sit and complain that the market has nothing for you? Will you not encourage profit-motivated content creators to build high quality work to fit your tastes? Is there no way where the buyer and seller can get the best outcome? Or should we just never trust the seller and only side with the consumer under the fear of a few people who try to exploit a system? Should the user's voice drown out the creators voice to the point that the creator can't express an opinion without being chastised for it because money is somehow involved? Can you give me an example of how the option of paid content obliterates an entire community made up of both content creators and content users (though it's obvious that is more of the former)? tl;dr : I'm on about co-existence, not about pro- or anti- paid content, and that the witch-hunt style movement in the days of the event were uncalled for and the movement could have been done in a more civil manner; just to make my stance clear to anyone who may be confused.
Zor2k13 Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 Groups of people will always divide when money is introduced, there will always be arguments when even a small amount of money is involved. This community is no different as we can see already. I find the comments about bugfesta purposely making their games buggy interesting because I see that in other places in the world too. For example sports teams that always lose and rarely win. Why does that happen? even after a team hires some overpaid celebrity player that scores what superman would score in every game they still lose? It is about money and how to get more of it. Losing teams draw in more people from out of town when they play at home and this generates more revenue for ALL companies involved with the stadium at home all the vendors and all parties involved even the tow truck companies that tow away people parked illegally. Also ticket sales increase because the fans of the winner teams think their team is soooo good they can beat anyone so they are willing to buy more out of town tickets and travel more. This makes the owner of the loser team rich and puts them in a better bargaining position with the city where the loser team stadium is built. The owner can advocate for a new stadium later on and get it easily. Why make a good, dam near perfectly programed game or software when you can make it crap and people will fix it for free? now how to make more money from those people? that is how we got here and it sucks.
guk Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 There is nothing immoral about accepting money for services rendered. Except, modding has never been a "service" that people pay for. LL Rule #12 We are a free and open community; members requiring payment for mods, support, or putting anything behind a paywall will be removed without warning. Donation buttons/links to support an author is fine, so long as nothing is promised, given, or rewarded other than a sense of satisfaction for supporting an author or owner of content. I think Doctasax has already mentioned this - previously this was in accord with the rules by the game producers, so there was no dispute about it. Now the cards have been shuffled, and if the payshop would not have been removed so quickly, this LL rule would have to be redesigned inevitably. Oh and since people kept making comparisons with other games. Yes, LL is not a Skyrim forum but an adult modding forum for all kinds of games. But let's not get deluded, the by far most relevant game for modding (in particular adult modding) is Skyrim. Not sure how the exact numbers on LL are, but have a look at the numbers on Nexus: This gets even more interesting if you draw conclusions between release date vs. amount of mods vs. amount of downloads.
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.