Paid Modding is gone... or is it?

[Kendo 2]

 

That would be a monumental task.  For the sake of argument let’s use ‘Blender’ as an example.  Blender is 100% free to use, from the program itself to the software and added scripts that drive it.  If the Blender Foundation decided they would let their end users make pay-for content with their program, Blender would in turn have to contact SourceForge and get them to agree to it.  SourceForge would then have to contact the developers of the software they used and get THEM to agree to it.  IF everyone agreed then the notion of Blender being used as a free software that people could use to make paid-for content could go forward.  That’s not likely to happen, no matter what developer name you replace ‘Blender’ with.

Blender is GNU GPL license. You completely own the files you make and can do as you wish with them. What does Sourceforge have to do with this?

 

https://www.blender.org/about/license/

 

 

Jeezus.  It was 'for instance'.  Notice I have 'Blender' in quotes.  It was an example of the multilayered licensing you are damn well aware of for software.  I could have inserted 'Disney' or 'XYZ' and it would have been the fucking same.

[Gameplayer]

I understood it,

 

Its just that Blender isn't the popular option.  The one a lot of the tut's follow is 3DS Max, and its got options for how to get its software and each has a different TOS and that determines what you can do with the stuff you make.

 

I've no idea on stuff that was used to make the SKSE and all the scripting that we take for granted, so I am guessing that stuff isn't going to fly.  I think Belesario said earlier in the posts that it wouldn't be legal to distribute SKSE in the scale that STEAM would due to some coding.

 

Well your not using SkyUI without SKSE right?

 

 

[Kendo 2]

Well, I'm done trying to explain how the real world works to people who live in Fantasy Land.

 

'Moddurz need to be paid.'

 

Okay.  HOW?  What are the legal issues and can it be done without getting sued?  What modder software can be used without risk?  What platform will be used for vending?  Who's going to develop the market model for payouts, purchases and licensing?  Who's going to guarantee the end products?  HOW will you do it?

 

'Derp.  Uh...moddurz need to be paid.'

 

Not matter what is said it always comes back to that so basically it is a fucking circle jerk, since some people are not budging on their uninformed opinions and they don't have a real world clue as to how to make it happen.

 

To those of you who care about such things, this is a copy of a mod EULA I wrote for Eronel55.  It is iron-clad since I wrote what this is based on for a real life mechanical application.

 

 

 

MODDER'S RESOURCE PROTECTED CONTENT DOWNLOAD AGREEMENT (Uploader as Author)

 

You should read all of the conditions of this Agreement before you install for personal use or edit Protected Content, as defined by this Agreement. If you do not agree to the conditions do not download the content.

 

Definitions:

(1). Protected Content: meshes and models (either as a whole or individual pieces) animations, sounds, art (regardless of format), or the contents of ESPs or ESMs, (including but not limited to scripting, processes, and functions pertaining to game mechanics, et al.)

(2). Uploader: the provider and/or De facto creator of the content. The Uploader does not have right, title or interest in the Protected Content, other than those specified in this Agreement. All game modifications dependent on processes provided by Bethesda Softworks LLC are the sole property of Bethesda Softworks LLC. The Uploader retains full creative rights over content not dependent on processes provided by Bethesda Softworks LLC.

(3). Downloader: the recipient of the Protected content.

(4). Users: End recipients of the Protected Content.

(5). Derivative Work: means modifications (corrections, additions, upgrades, improvements, extensions, compilations, abridgment or other forms of alteration) of the Protected Content.

 

 

This Download Agreement is made effective at the instance of receipt by the Downloader. In consideration of the mutual promises contained herein and other good and valuable consideration, the receipt and sufficiency of which is hereby acknowledged, the parties agree as follows:

 

 

I. Content Materials; Grant of Agreement

 

The materials that are the subject of this Agreement shall consist of the electronic information published or otherwise made available by the Uploader (hereinafter referred to as the "Protected Content").

 

The Downloader acknowledges that the title to the Protected Content and any marks or characteristics relating thereto remain with Uploader. Downloaders shall not have right, title or interest in the Protected Content except as expressly set forth in this Agreement.

 

The Uploader hereby grants to the Downloader non-exclusive use of the Protected Content and the right to provide the Protected Content to Users in accordance with this Agreement.

 

 

II. Authorized Use of Protected Content

 

 

Authorized Uses. The Downloader and Users may make all use of the Protected Content as is consistent with this Download agreement.

 

The Protected Content may be used for purposes of entertainment, education (tutorials) or other non-commercial use as follows:

 

Display. The Downloader and Users shall have the right to electronically display the Protected Content.

 

Digitally Copy. The Downloader and Users may download and digitally copy a reasonable portion of the Protected Content.

 

 

III. Specific Restrictions on Use of Protected Content

 

Modification of Protected Content. The Downloader is permitted to modify or create a Derivative Work of the Protected Content without the prior permission of the Uploader. Derivative Work is to be clearly acknowledged and identified as being derived, transformed, adapted or recast from the Protected Content.

 

Removal of Identifying Marks. Downloaders may not remove, obscure or modify Identifying Marks placed by the Uploader without prior written consent.

 

Commercial Purposes. Downloaders may not use the Protected Content for commercial purposes, including but not limited to the sale of the Protected Content.

 

 

IV. Uploader Performance Obligations

 

Support. The uploader will offer one-time activation or installation support, including assisting with the implementation of the Protected Content. The Uploader is not required to offer reasonable levels of continuing support to assist the Downloader and Users in use of the Protected Content.

 

Training. The Uploader is not required provide training to Downloaders or Users relating to the use of the Protected Content.

 

If the Protected Content fails to operate in conformance with the terms of this Agreement, the Downloader shall notify the Uploader, and the Uploader shall use reasonable efforts to repair the nonconformity.

 

Withdrawal of Protected Content. The Uploader reserves the right to withdraw from the Protected Content any item or part of an item for which it no longer retains the right to publish, or which it has reasonable grounds to believe infringes copyright, is unlawful or otherwise objectionable. The Uploader shall give written notice to the Downloader of such withdrawal following the removal of any item pursuant to this section.

 

 

V. Downloader Performance Obligations

 

Provision of Notice of Agreement Terms to Users. Downloaders shall provide Users with appropriate notice of the terms and conditions under which access to the Protected Content is granted under this Agreement including, in particular, any limitations on access or use of the Protected Content as set forth in this Agreement.

 

Protection from Unauthorized Use. The Downloader shall use reasonable efforts to protect the Protected Content from any use that is not permitted under this Agreement. In the event of any unauthorized use of the Protected Content by a User, (a) The Uploader may terminate such User's access to the Protected Content, (  The Downloader shall terminate such User's access to the Protected Content upon the Uploader's request. The Uploader shall take none of the steps described in this paragraph without first providing reasonable notice to the Downloader and cooperating with the Downloader to avoid recurrence of any unauthorized use.

 

 

VI. Term

 

This Agreement shall continue indefinately, commencing on the effective Download Date.

 

 

VII. Early Termination

 

In the event the Uploader believes the Downloader has breached any obligations under this Agreement, or if Uploader believes that Downloader has exceeded the scope of the Agreement, the Uploader shall so notify the Downloader in writing. The Downloader shall have 48 (forty-eight) hours from the receipt of notice to cure the alleged breach and to notify the Uploader in writing that a cure has been effected. If the breach is not cured within the 48 (forty-eight) hours, the Uploader shall have the right to terminate the Agreement without further notice.

 

 

VIII. Perpetual License

 

Except for termination for cause, the Uploader hereby grants to the Downloader a nonexclusive perpetual license to use any Protected Content accessible during the term of this Agreement. Such use shall be in accordance with the provisions of this Agreement, which provisions shall survive any termination of this Agreement. The means by which the Downloader shall have access to such Protected Content shall be in a manner and form substantially equivalent to the means by which access is provided under this Agreement.

 

 

IX. Assignment and Transfer

 

The Downloader may not assign, directly or indirectly, all or part of its rights or obligations under this Agreement without the prior written consent of the Uploader.

 

 

X. Force Majeure

 

Neither party shall be liable in damages or have the right to terminate this Agreement for any delay or default in performing hereunder if such delay or default is caused by conditions beyond its control including, but not limited to Acts of God, Government restrictions (including censorship) and/or any other cause beyond the reasonable control of the party whose performance is affected. 

 

 

XI. Entire Agreement

 

This Agreement constitutes the entire agreement of the parties and supersedes all prior communications, understandings and agreements relating to the subject matter hereof, whether oral or written. 

 

 

XII. Amendment

 

No modification or claimed waiver of any provision of this Agreement by the Downloader shall be valid except by written agreement of the Uploader.

 

 

XIII. Severability

 

If any provision or provisions of this Agreement shall be held to be invalid, illegal, unenforceable or in conflict with the law of any jurisdiction, the validity, legality and enforceability of the remaining provisions shall not in any way be affected or impaired thereby. 

 

 

XIV. Waiver of Contractual Right

 

Waiver of any provision herein shall not be deemed a waiver of any other provision herein, nor shall waiver of any breach of this Agreement be construed as a continuing waiver of other breaches of the same or other provisions of this Agreement. 

 

 

XV. Notices

 

All notices given pursuant to this Agreement shall be in writing and may be deemed received within 48 (forty-eigth) hours of delivery confirmation.

 

*The smiley face under Protection from Unauthorized Use is the forum translating b + ) as an emoticon.

[Aydoo]

 

I really don't understand what concept people have of being realistic and reality.

Some people think that introducing money in modding (talking about this specific bethesda modding) is overall a good idea.

 

 

Well it's NOT and you can kiss goodbye to current quality and variety.

 

Do you know what it takes to make mods? RESOURCES.

 

The RESOURCES the modders are using now are NON COMMERCIAL.

 

Are you aware of that?

 

When a modder releases a pack of pretty skin, outfits, clouds and skies or terrain, rocks, grass, even hair, tattoos, weapons, cube maps… all the beauty you like… you should know inside those packs have been used a ton of FREE RESOURCES.

 i.e. stock photos, brushes, textures, patterns, also 3d models, you name it, these RESOURCES CAN BE USED by the modders because they release NON COMMERCIAL.

 

The moment these smurt modders should release COMMERCIAL they can kiss big fucking goodbye to all those RESOURCES and MUST start PAYING to get resources licensed for commercial use.

 

There is a very tiny amount of resources available for free that you are allowed to use for commercial, if you do not know, and you must also pay great attention to the terms of use.

 

Now people obviously ignore this and everything is going to be so fucking okay!

Instead you wake from the dream and this is the BIG fuck you'll get once modders should start PAYING for RESOURCES to release COMMERCIAL.

 

At i.e. Renderosity they do not google: hair brush and use them. Release is commercial and that FREE hair brush is for NON COMMERCIAL use, so if you need one for your commercial mod you CANNOT use that one, you PAY for one.

And do you think with the generous (or even fair) payment Bethesda and Valve is going to grant to modders, the modders are gonna spend their bucks?

 

At this point you should start rethinking what realism is in this situation. So FORGET the VARIETY you have now and the QUALITY around you have NOW thanks to a multitude and high-quality resources the modders every day are FREE to use.

 

I wonder if you really are a bunch of fool…  ALL those pretty skin textures your characters have on their bodies are ALL coming from Thepal (for Caliente) and Vectorcide (for Dimon) base textures of their bodies and IIRC Real Girls that is original work by Zonzai.  Now if it was market you would have 3 textures to chose from AKA the original ones and PAY for them of course, this for explaining what's mean not SHARING resources. So…

 

all those modifications you are using, ALL those modifications of the 3 original ones are there because you guess… it's FREE, the original creators granted them with no problem permission to use and modify,

it's FREE environment.

Thepal/Caliente, Vectorcide and Zonzai gave to all FREE RESOURCES and from those are made the gazzilion around.

 

What do you think you'll get once it will be Market? You can start by now forgetting all this.

 

Go ahead and continue supporting "modders must be paid", go on and get SCREWED.

 

FREE modders will slowly lose the joy of modding (see the word: SHARING) since it's a market, so yeah you are going to get FUCKED.

Textures artists and 3d modelers will be the first ones to disappear in gifting morons who pay for mods.

 

Take a trip you bunch of realistic people and look at freebies props sites, there are no fools giving you their work as resource if you are going to release COMMERCIAL and if some do, read carefully or you are gonna get screwed more seriously.

 

I stop here and won't talk about mega-quests and overhauls of any kind where voice acting, beta testing and big collaborations are involved and NEEDED.

I'm sure there will be plenty of people eager to spend their time and give help as it was until now, sure, for people who is getting paid.

 

 

So, kiss goodbye to big choice of good mods you have NOW and be content with your shrewd bullshitting about monetizing everything is not bad. You should start monetizing your ass too.

 

I'm sure this will be of no use to people who like to get screwed and there are many, just for the few.

 

This is probably the best arguement against paid modding I've seen.  BRAVO.

 

 

This isn't 100% true.

For example: The assets in my warpaint mod for example are 100% resource free, created with a program I paid for, that is licensed to allow me to sell whatever I want. The only thing that could stop it is the fact that it requires code that Expired owns and developed himself.

Not trying to argue here, but it is true.  You just said as much.

The warpaints were made with a program you paid the commercial use license for.  It wasn't a free student version or something else that has terms preventing sale.  In theory you could sell them anywhere since they do not rely on Bethesda software.

The only part of your mod that cannot be sold is Expired's code, since it's dependent on Bethesda software to get RaceMenu to apply it to the game.    Proves his point.

 

 

What I was refuting was this: "The RESOURCES the modders are using now are NON COMMERCIAL." which is untrue in many situations.

 

I own my assets, they have no licensing on them.

Expired's code is owned by HIM. Its developed in Bethesda's owned language. IF Bethesda allows licensing of their language (which they did with the workshop) it made it 100% legal to sell it.

 

This would give me 3 choices:

 

1 Use my assets as a replacer that doesn't touch anyone but Bethesda's assets.

 

2 Get Expired's permission to use hook in code, to use as a plugin for his mod (thus helping boost the sale of his.)

 

3 Develop my own mod for a warpaint menu using Bethesda's language.

 

All three would have totally legal and acceptable under Bethesda's terms.

 

My point is not every modder is using another modders resources (or non commercial resources,) and building on top of theirs. The modders that are also have other options as well. Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to argue that what was put up for sale was worth what they were expecting, nor that it was right for certain things to be put up (like Chesko's,) but the scope some people are throwing around is just plain wrong. What should have happened was that any mod that already exists should have been prevented from being put up, that way new mods and techniques would have had to been developed.

[Hayleyrose2323]

"There is no fish around" *Stares at the fish* Totally worth them munnies!

[Exar Kun]

Just found this.... a bit dated but...

 

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/valve-sued-by-australian-consumer-watchdog-over-st/1100-6421983/

 

Does anyone know what happened afterwards?

 

looks like its still on-going as stEAm/Valve can't be bothered to pander to every little cluster of consumers around the world but things changed for EA http://www.gamespot.com/articles/ea-changes-origin-refund-policy-after-being-hit-by/1100-6426933/

 

at this point saying stEAm is more of a compliment to Valve although I've heard people getting banned/warnings during the paid mod crusade. Its also interesting to note how much EA values what their customers think of them and their service (or just PR) as noted by the A+ rating by the BBB

http://www.bbb.org/greater-san-francisco/business-reviews/video-games-wholesale-and-manufacturers/electronic-arts-in-redwood-city-ca-64196

[Hayleyrose2323]

Oh got it to work, the key to fishing in skyrim is making sure there are no fishes near you...Anyone else try any of the paid mods? Was gonna try SKYUI 5. Prolly not. Everyones busy chatting away bout paid mods still...sigh..I mean watcha guys gonna do, forget bout modding, being all like "ITS NOT OVER! IT WILL NEVER BE OVER, AAAAH RAAACHEEEL" until the next game?

 

Seriously, i just picture that cliche cop thing who just lost his family held up in his apartment watching old home videos being all sad, narrating whats going on with life with that hurt deep voice. Kinda whats happening now...

[Sacremas]

Laast released his 'laast' mod, Purity on the Nexus, throwing up a peace sign in the process. His was one of the most expensive pay for mods, without the "pay what you want, including half a buck" that Chesko and iskoku's mods were set to. He's now releasing his mod for free, then quitting. I don't know if I should feel sorry for him or what.

[idonotlikeusernames]

 

Something else that people are not considering is licensing to mod for cash and then having people actually pay for content.  Depending on the software used to make the content every mod would need it’s own EULA identifying; the original software developers, licensees, end users, 3rd parties, the terms of use, preexisting licensing, provider liability, relief, arguments and everything else.  If that sounds confusing; it is and it’s over the heads of most modders.  They might be able to read a EULA and understand it, but they wouldn’t be able to author one and have it stand up to legal challenge.

 

The very same thing applies to most legislators, which is why most of the laws in the World are crap, since it's actually lobbyist lawyers who write them.

At best legislators amend a tiny portion of those drafts and when they do they usually create, inadvertently or not, even more loopholes.

[Vacaliga]

So i have been trying to find something to compare this to but so far i have only come up with one that being my own job vs my hobby.

 

So i have my own business as freelance photographer and i guess editor, i do weddings, confirmations, special events, fix/save peoples bad holiday photo's etc. Now i also besides playing video games have hobby in nude and light erotica photos which i don't charge or receive money for despite being basically the same as my money earning job, you know point camera > hit shutter > process > repeat, and put just as much effort and often more into the hobby part as to do the money earning part, simply because i enjoy it.

 

So having an income and hobby in the same field is very much possible. And just to clarify it all started as a hobby and only part of it became career, and funny enough i didn't grow horns or had my eyeballs replaced with fat dollar signs when the opportunity to make profit from it came along, but merely saw it as way to do more of what i love doing without starving to death. And i am honestly surprised to see that there seem to very little faith in the community some are so desperately fighting to protect. and sure every community has its share of dark minded people and it always will regardless of whether or not money is involved to a greater or lesser extent.

 

Now as for the part about modders becoming competitors and there by withholding all their knowledge and know hows to themselves again to me sounds a bit paranoid and can again refer to my personal experience. If i'm out working somewhere and a person walks up me and ask if i could give some tips or advice on something like camera setting what lense i'm using and why or maybe just to have chat about pictures in general, if the person is nice about it then sure i'm more then happy help them out, just as you might ask your local handyman what screws would be best for your home project. and really the same goes for other professionals just last month i got a call from someone in the same line of work as me asking if he could borrow my 50mm since the focus wheel on his broke for whatever reason and it was a 4 hour drive for him to get his other one, and sure i was not using mine at that time, sure he is technically my competitor so really i could care less about his shit breaking right? Indeed but i like to think it's better to build bridges then burning them and maybe i'm just a nice guy, at least most of the time i like to think that i am anyway, but i also link to think i'm not the only who is. 

 

So what does all of this have to do with whether or not modders should be allowed to charge/make money with their mods well perhaps not much since photography has pretty much always been a business whereas modding has always been more of a hobby/freeware thing, but not willing to at least try and evolve and adapt something based only on tradition and the saying; it always been this way, is rather close minded not to say anti progressive. and yeah no need to fix what's not broken but that don't mean you can't improve it.

 

Hell i mean personal transport was around and established long before the first cars came around and when first arriving they were not exactly an improvement, clunky noisy expensive and barely able to break walking speed, but they improved with time, and yeah yeah global warming and all that, but that's what we have history for to keep us from making the same mistake and look for ways to advance ourselves for the better, even if we sometimes hit some bumps along the way.

 

So to conclude, it would seem that we all universally agree that the move made by Valve and Bethesda was not really worthy of the of the gold medal in the field of ways to improve things, to say it mildly, but Rome wasn't build in a day and it would be foolish to think otherwise, but we have the foundation, now we just have to figure how to lag the bricks to the greatest benefit for all parties, both for the companies who has to build it and us the people who have to live there.

 

My ohh my how philosophy can take over at 6:30 in the morning, but yeah if you wanna keep doing things the traditional way fine, i have yet to see any evidence even suggesting you can't keep doing that. but i would like to see things move forward, and some might think or say: How dare you even think that, and to that i say: How dare you say i can't.            

[junkacc]

I just wrote this on the Bethsoft forums:

 

Throughout this whole conversion, the criticism leveled at Valve didn't sit well with me. Valve plays the role of a mall operator/owner, they have no reason to turn away proprietors who wish to sell goods in their mall as long as they're not engaged in illegal activity, such as drug dealing, etc. They just collect rent taking a standard cut. If a proprietor has a really good idea, the mall owner may even build facilities for them in exchange for a larger cut (paid workshop facility).

 

Now let's look at Bethesda/Zenimax. I see extreme greed in their actions. They've supplied the tools (CK) and some of the raw material (art assets), but they've already benefited handsomely through increased sales as "it can be modded" is a huge selling point. Moreover, now that Skyrim is in the bargain bin, the income has slowed to a trickle. It looks like they came up with the paid workshop idea in order to monetize the mods for additional monies. In other words, now that they've milked the game sales component dry, they're trying to milk the mods. In their calculation, the backlash doesn't matter much since everyone who would've bought the game already has done so at this point.

 

It's the same thing they pulled with ESO. First they milked the B2P+Subscription+In-game Store model for all it's worth, now B2P+ingame store, next F2P+ingame store, sucking every drop of blood at each step. And don't give me the "Zenimax Online is different from Bethesda Softworks" bull. They're as different as my left arm is different from my right arm. It also has an anus, the in-house PR/Marketing/Hype Machine department that spews out all the lies and half-truths we've all come to expect for both Bethsoft and ZO. To propagate the "ZO is not Bethsoft" meme I see so many engage in does no favors to anyone, unless you work as paid shill or are employee of said anus.

 

So how about you, Bethesda or Zenimax or your anus department, provide a complete set of modtools that don't make modders jump through hoops to get things working. How about you provide modders with high quality art assets so homebrewed art assets don't encumber each other, creating a legal minefield. How about you do this from the beginning of a gamelaunch so you can't pull a bait'n'switch like you tried just now. Only then can you justify a 45% cut for providing tools and assets.

 

But something got me thinking afterwards,

 

How about you provide modders with high quality art assets so homebrewed art assets don't encumber each other, creating a legal minefield

 

The EULA states, Bethesda can do whatever they want with anything you release. To circumvent the legal minefield, what if they take that privilege and grant license to use other people's work to anyone that publish on the paid workshop?

[Aydoo]

So i have been trying to find something to compare this to but so far i have only come up with one that being my own job vs my hobby.

 

So i have my own business as freelance photographer and i guess editor, i do weddings, confirmations, special events, fix/save peoples bad holiday photo's etc. Now i also besides playing video games have hobby in nude and light erotica photos which i don't charge or receive money for despite being basically the same as my money earning job, you know point camera > hit shutter > process > repeat, and put just as much effort and often more into the hobby part as to do the money earning part, simply because i enjoy it.

 

So having an income and hobby in the same field is very much possible. And just to clarify it all started as a hobby and only part of it became career, and funny enough i didn't grow horns or had my eyeballs replaced with fat dollar signs when the opportunity to make profit from it came along, but merely saw it as way to do more of what i love doing without starving to death. And i am honestly surprised to see that there seem to very little faith in the community some are so desperately fighting to protect. and sure every community has its share of dark minded people and it always will regardless of whether or not money is involved to a greater or lesser extent.

 

Now as for the part about modders becoming competitors and there by withholding all their knowledge and know hows to themselves again to me sounds a bit paranoid and can again refer to my personal experience. If i'm out working somewhere and a person walks up me and ask if i could give some tips or advice on something like camera setting what lense i'm using and why or maybe just to have chat about pictures in general, if the person is nice about it then sure i'm more then happy help them out, just as you might ask your local handyman what screws would be best for your home project. and really the same goes for other professionals just last month i got a call from someone in the same line of work as me asking if he could borrow my 50mm since the focus wheel on his broke for whatever reason and it was a 4 hour drive for him to get his other one, and sure i was not using mine at that time, sure he is technically my competitor so really i could care less about his shit breaking right? Indeed but i like to think it's better to build bridges then burning them and maybe i'm just a nice guy, at least most of the time i like to think that i am anyway, but i also link to think i'm not the only who is. 

 

So what does all of this have to do with whether or not modders should be allowed to charge/make money with their mods well perhaps not much since photography has pretty much always been a business whereas modding has always been more of a hobby/freeware thing, but not willing to at least try and evolve and adapt something based only on tradition and the saying; it always been this way, is rather close minded not to say anti progressive. and yeah no need to fix what's not broken but that don't mean you can't improve it.

 

Hell i mean personal transport was around and established long before the first cars came around and when first arriving they were not exactly an improvement, clunky noisy expensive and barely able to break walking speed, but they improved with time, and yeah yeah global warming and all that, but that's what we have history for to keep us from making the same mistake and look for ways to advance ourselves for the better, even if we sometimes hit some bumps along the way.

 

So to conclude, it would seem that we all universally agree that the move made by Valve and Bethesda was not really worthy of the of the gold medal in the field of ways to improve things, to say it mildly, but Rome wasn't build in a day and it would be foolish to think otherwise, but we have the foundation, now we just have to figure how to lag the bricks to the greatest benefit for all parties, both for the companies who has to build it and us the people who have to live there.

 

My ohh my how philosophy can take over at 6:30 in the morning, but yeah if you wanna keep doing things the traditional way fine, i have yet to see any evidence even suggesting you can't keep doing that. but i would like to see things move forward, and some might think or say: How dare you even think that, and to that i say: How dare you say i can't.            

 

Great write up. It seems a lot of the detractors are also people who don't actually have experience in these fields, while those who support a modified and fair system do.

 

 

I just wrote this on the Bethsoft forums:

 

Throughout this whole conversion, the criticism leveled at Valve didn't sit well with me. Valve plays the role of a mall operator/owner, they have no reason to turn away proprietors who wish to sell goods in their mall as long as they're not engaged in illegal activity, such as drug dealing, etc. They just collect rent taking a standard cut. If a proprietor has a really good idea, the mall owner may even build facilities for them in exchange for a larger cut (paid workshop facility).

 

Now let's look at Bethesda/Zenimax. I see extreme greed in their actions. They've supplied the tools (CK) and some of the raw material (art assets), but they've already benefited handsomely through increased sales as "it can be modded" is a huge selling point. Moreover, now that Skyrim is in the bargain bin, the income has slowed to a trickle. It looks like they came up with the paid workshop idea in order to monetize the mods for additional monies. In other words, now that they've milked the game sales component dry, they're trying to milk the mods. In their calculation, the backlash doesn't matter much since everyone who would've bought the game already has done so at this point.

 

It's the same thing they pulled with ESO. First they milked the B2P+Subscription+In-game Store model for all it's worth, now B2P+ingame store, next F2P+ingame store, sucking every drop of blood at each step. And don't give me the "Zenimax Online is different from Bethesda Softworks" bull. They're as different as my left arm is different from my right arm. It also has an anus, the in-house PR/Marketing/Hype Machine department that spews out all the lies and half-truths we've all come to expect for both Bethsoft and ZO. To propagate the "ZO is not Bethsoft" meme I see so many engage in does no favors to anyone, unless you work as paid shill or are employee of said anus.

 

So how about you, Bethesda or Zenimax or your anus department, provide a complete set of modtools that don't make modders jump through hoops to get things working. How about you provide modders with high quality art assets so homebrewed art assets don't encumber each other, creating a legal minefield. How about you do this from the beginning of a gamelaunch so you can't pull a bait'n'switch like you tried just now. Only then can you justify a 45% cut for providing tools and assets.

 

But something got me thinking afterwards,

 

How about you provide modders with high quality art assets so homebrewed art assets don't encumber each other, creating a legal minefield

 

The EULA states, Bethesda can do whatever they want with anything you release. To circumvent the legal minefield, what if they take that privilege and grant license to use other people's work to anyone that publish on the paid workshop?

 

Because legally copyright says no, regardless of what the EULA says.

[junkacc]

Because legally copyright says no, regardless of what the EULA says.

 

 

The EULA states:

 

 

 If You distribute or otherwise make available New Materials, You automatically grant to Bethesda Softworks the irrevocable, perpetual, royalty free, sublicensable right and license under all applicable copyrights and intellectual property rights laws to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, perform, display, distribute and otherwise exploit and/or dispose of the New Materials (or any part of the New Materials) in any way Bethesda Softworks, or its respective designee(s), sees fit.

 

Although the legality of EULAs can be called into question...

[Aydoo]

http://joekeatinge.com/post/117640669452/who-created-caitlin-snow-on-theflash-according

 

Here's an article on copyright and IP rights.

[afa]

Art asset is probably where it is slightly easier to deal with. I can technically purchase and download a digital picture (textures), and probably able to purchase and download a model (meshes) of something online. Whatever possible legal issues within it should have already been sorted since they are already up for sale.

In that sense there's technically no reason why selling of these assets through the workshop can not happen.

 

Setting aside support, pricing, profit margin, since they are just market demands and price adjustments.

[Zor2k13]

This is exactly the kind of shit that I can't stand, the fake legal system of the US is so full of holes and exploits! There has to be a label on products these days that says do not ingest or do not drink may cause death or injury for products like clothes washing detergent or similar and so on. DURRRR!!! people know not to drink it but what the label is for, is to prevent the company that made the detergent from being sued by crazy people that thought hey, if I drink this stuff and it doesn't kill me I can sue the company for not warning me it could do that!

 

 

I heard a story recently about a guy in peru that was trying to kill himself so he went to the local store and bought some rat poison. He planned to go back home and eat the rat poison then die but when he ate the rat poison it didn't kill him just made him sick and throw up for a while. He figured the store owner had ripped him off by selling him fake poison or watered down stuff etc so he went back to the store and demanded his money back while telling the store owner he knew the poison was a rip off because it didn't kill him!

 

 

People are crazy and people are greedy, we can't have nice things because some people still don't do the right thing. I don't expect game companies to ever do the right thing since they have a bad track record. I think in the near future games will be worse and worse not the same or better. Looking back over the last decade we can see a pattern of transition away from traditional sales and marketing towards some kind of get something for nothing mentality.

 

Every time some major game comes out it has less and less of the things the past game had. Levels are smaller and content is less in supply and less complex. Then there is more and more DLC made for it in a short time which cost a lot and has the missing content which should have been in the game. This is not rocket science this is obvious stuff, the industry is turning into crap and dying. Driven by greed or put in a desperate situation by the worsening economy or maybe both. Either way we won't see the likes of good games again only more stale and buggy shit with less content and more restrictions, increased requirements for constant online connections and more legal bullshit tacked on to cover their asses.

 

I hate thinking about all this shit it keeps me from modding and from playing any games no matter who made them, since this shit happened I can't even turn on my gaming rig most of the time I just get this wave of disappointment over me that won't go away then I get mad about it for a while. I don't understand why these companies have to be such ass holes about every DAM thing they do but I don't expect them to stop being ass holes any time soon if ever. Maybe it takes a crash of the industry to shake up board rooms like kendo 2 said earlier. Maybe it all has to hit rock bottom before we can come back up and find some way to agree on playing games together and making money together too?

 

 

EDIT

 

I searched for the words disappointment bethesda with google and got this site as one of the results on the first page lol

 

http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Why-Bethesda-Threatening-Legal-Action-Against-Indie-Developer-70073.html

[junkacc]

http://joekeatinge.com/post/117640669452/who-created-caitlin-snow-on-theflash-according

 

Here's an article on copyright and IP rights.

 

I read the whole thing and it doesn't mention what happens when EULAs are involved. Although it does bring up many shenanigans the software industry tries to pull.

 

I'm not a lawyer but from my understanding the legal system uses legal equivalence when judging new situations. In other words, they take something similar as precedent and apply it to current situations. This makes for comical arguments made by the software/games industry -- that digital media are not physical property like books that you can buy or sell second hand, but when it comes to lost or destroyed digital media, they are like books so you have to buy them again.

 

But still I don't see the relavence to the current argument unless you bring into question how well EULAs stand up in court.

 

But an interesting situation arises when the modtools such as the CK released by Bethesda are so inadequate and shitty to use in general that people use third party tools without using the CK at all. Then the EULA has no affect on the copyright.

 

So going back to my post on Bethsoft:

 

So how about you, Bethesda or Zenimax or your anus department, provide a complete set of modtools that don't make modders jump through hoops to get things working. How about you provide modders with high quality art assets so homebrewed art assets don't encumber each other, creating a legal minefield. How about you do this from the beginning of a gamelaunch so you can't pull a bait'n'switch like you tried just now. Only then can you justify a 45% cut for providing tools and assets.

 

Maybe the next game... or the one after, since FO4 probably has the same shoddy shitty craptastic Bethesda workmanship in it.

[Aydoo]

 

 

 

http://joekeatinge.com/post/117640669452/who-created-caitlin-snow-on-theflash-according

 

Here's an article on copyright and IP rights.

 

I read the whole thing and it doesn't mention what happens when EULAs are involved. Although it does bring up many shenanigans the software industry tries to pull.

 

I'm not a lawyer but from my understanding the legal system uses legal equivalence when judging new situations. In other words, they take something similar as precedent and apply it to current situations. This makes for comical arguments made by the software/games industry -- that digital media are not physical property like books that you can buy or sell second hand, but when it comes to lost or destroyed digital media, they are like books so you have to buy them again.

 

But still I don't see the relevence to the current argument unless you bring into question how well EULAs stand up in court.

 

But an interesting situation arises when the modtools such as the CK released by Bethesda are so inadequate and shitty to use in general that people use third party tools without using the CK at all. Then the EULA has no affect on the copyright.

 

So going back to my post on Bethsoft:

 

So how about you, Bethesda or Zenimax or your anus department, provide a complete set of modtools that don't make modders jump through hoops to get things working. How about you provide modders with high quality art assets so homebrewed art assets don't encumber each other, creating a legal minefield. How about you do this from the beginning of a gamelaunch so you can't pull a bait'n'switch like you tried just now. Only then can you justify a 45% cut for providing tools and assets.

 

Maybe the next game... or the one after, since FO4 probably has the same shoddy shitty craptastic Bethesda workmanship in it.

 

 

 

 

It wasn't a direct reply to the current exchange between us (which is why I didn't quote) but was still relevant overall to the discussion of IP ownership.
 

[Warrunner]

"This community is disgusting because they expect something that has always been free to remain being free!"

 

 

I mean, throwing around words like entitlement to describe the above? Seriously? Mod designers are entitled to thanks, to respect, and to funds volunteered. They are not entitled to an immensely exploitable system that would have within six months ended up like Greenlight- full of broken, half done cash grab mods that were posted by people who are unaccountable and had no intention of supporting anything they made and whome, thanks to steam being a free service and Paypal accounts being a thing, will just come back and do it again the next time they need to replace the transmission on their car. For every good, well thought out mod that was made by someone with passion who just wanted to make some money on the side, there would be dozens of cash grab do nothing mods. Within six months nobody would be paying for them anyway and the community well would have been so poisoned that everyone who was actually interested would be torrenting the things.

 

It is a system that was broken, and no iteration of it will work until the modders in question are held to legal accountability, and I wonder, how many do you think would be ok with risking class action lawsuit if their mod suddenly stopped working after an official patch ten months after they stopped modding?

 

 

[Guest endgameaddiction]

EDIT

 

I searched for the words disappointment bethesda with google and got this site as one of the results on the first page lol

 

http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Why-Bethesda-Threatening-Legal-Action-Against-Indie-Developer-70073.html

 

Corporate bullying sounds about right. And they played it smart. Zenimax has too much money.

 

I might as well go copyright a few words, that way if people on the street start saying that word. I can file a lawsuit. Silly really, but that is exactly what this world is more and more coming to.

[Vacaliga]

 

EDIT

 

I searched for the words disappointment bethesda with google and got this site as one of the results on the first page lol

 

http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Why-Bethesda-Threatening-Legal-Action-Against-Indie-Developer-70073.html

 

Corporate bullying sounds about right. And they played it smart. Zenimax has too much money.

 

I might as well go copyright a few words, that way if people on the street start saying that word. I can file a lawsuit. Silly really, but that is exactly what this world is more and more coming to.

 

 

Awful and unfair as it may seem, it is sadly just the way things work, as many loopholes there are for companies to "bully" others, there is properly just as many loopholes in which companies can lose their rights of their properties, so seen from a corporate point of view i can understand why Bethesda/Zenimax has chosen to run a zero tolerance policy when it comes to protecting their IP. And perhaps a similar reason why the coca-cola recipe is such a close guarded secret as it is.  

[Rayblue]

 

EDIT

 

I searched for the words disappointment bethesda with google and got this site as one of the results on the first page lol

 

http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Why-Bethesda-Threatening-Legal-Action-Against-Indie-Developer-70073.html

 

Corporate bullying sounds about right. And they played it smart. Zenimax has too much money.

 

I might as well go copyright a few words, that way if people on the street start saying that word. I can file a lawsuit. Silly really, but that is exactly what this world is more and more coming to.

 

 

It's always been, and became more complicated since the introduction of the DMCA.

[windpl]

So i have been trying to find something to compare this to but so far i have only come up with one that being my own job vs my hobby.

 

So i have my own business as freelance photographer and i guess editor, i do weddings, confirmations, special events, fix/save peoples bad holiday photo's etc. Now i also besides playing video games have hobby in nude and light erotica photos which i don't charge or receive money for despite being basically the same as my money earning job, you know point camera > hit shutter > process > repeat, and put just as much effort and often more into the hobby part as to do the money earning part, simply because i enjoy it.

 

So having an income and hobby in the same field is very much possible. And just to clarify it all started as a hobby and only part of it became career, and funny enough i didn't grow horns or had my eyeballs replaced with fat dollar signs when the opportunity to make profit from it came along, but merely saw it as way to do more of what i love doing without starving to death. And i am honestly surprised to see that there seem to very little faith in the community some are so desperately fighting to protect. and sure every community has its share of dark minded people and it always will regardless of whether or not money is involved to a greater or lesser extent.

 

Now as for the part about modders becoming competitors and there by withholding all their knowledge and know hows to themselves again to me sounds a bit paranoid and can again refer to my personal experience. If i'm out working somewhere and a person walks up me and ask if i could give some tips or advice on something like camera setting what lense i'm using and why or maybe just to have chat about pictures in general, if the person is nice about it then sure i'm more then happy help them out, just as you might ask your local handyman what screws would be best for your home project. and really the same goes for other professionals just last month i got a call from someone in the same line of work as me asking if he could borrow my 50mm since the focus wheel on his broke for whatever reason and it was a 4 hour drive for him to get his other one, and sure i was not using mine at that time, sure he is technically my competitor so really i could care less about his shit breaking right? Indeed but i like to think it's better to build bridges then burning them and maybe i'm just a nice guy, at least most of the time i like to think that i am anyway, but i also link to think i'm not the only who is. 

 

So what does all of this have to do with whether or not modders should be allowed to charge/make money with their mods well perhaps not much since photography has pretty much always been a business whereas modding has always been more of a hobby/freeware thing, but not willing to at least try and evolve and adapt something based only on tradition and the saying; it always been this way, is rather close minded not to say anti progressive. and yeah no need to fix what's not broken but that don't mean you can't improve it.

 

Hell i mean personal transport was around and established long before the first cars came around and when first arriving they were not exactly an improvement, clunky noisy expensive and barely able to break walking speed, but they improved with time, and yeah yeah global warming and all that, but that's what we have history for to keep us from making the same mistake and look for ways to advance ourselves for the better, even if we sometimes hit some bumps along the way.

 

So to conclude, it would seem that we all universally agree that the move made by Valve and Bethesda was not really worthy of the of the gold medal in the field of ways to improve things, to say it mildly, but Rome wasn't build in a day and it would be foolish to think otherwise, but we have the foundation, now we just have to figure how to lag the bricks to the greatest benefit for all parties, both for the companies who has to build it and us the people who have to live there.

 

My ohh my how philosophy can take over at 6:30 in the morning, but yeah if you wanna keep doing things the traditional way fine, i have yet to see any evidence even suggesting you can't keep doing that. but i would like to see things move forward, and some might think or say: How dare you even think that, and to that i say: How dare you say i can't.            

 

Improve, evolve, and you saying throw more cash on it.

Yeah. That's is way to evolve things throw more cash on them. If it have past you, moding is evolving for about 20 years now, games that are warded to be modded are cracked open, mods incorporating other IP to another IP are made, whole games are revoked in new engine. Man, and your idea of support and evolving it is to cash it and cage it. Yeah, you haven't been in this moding world long right? Because that would explain your ignorance.

[Erundil]

So i have been trying to find something to compare this to but so far i have only come up with one that being my own job vs my hobby.

 

 

So i have my own business as freelance photographer and i guess editor, i do weddings, confirmations, special events, fix/save peoples bad holiday photo's etc. Now i also besides playing video games have hobby in nude and light erotica photos which i don't charge or receive money for despite being basically the same as my money earning job, you know point camera > hit shutter > process > repeat, and put just as much effort and often more into the hobby part as to do the money earning part, simply because i enjoy it.

 

So having an income and hobby in the same field is very much possible. And just to clarify it all started as a hobby and only part of it became career, and funny enough i didn't grow horns or had my eyeballs replaced with fat dollar signs when the opportunity to make profit from it came along, but merely saw it as way to do more of what i love doing without starving to death. And i am honestly surprised to see that there seem to very little faith in the community some are so desperately fighting to protect. and sure every community has its share of dark minded people and it always will regardless of whether or not money is involved to a greater or lesser extent.

 

Now as for the part about modders becoming competitors and there by withholding all their knowledge and know hows to themselves again to me sounds a bit paranoid and can again refer to my personal experience. If i'm out working somewhere and a person walks up me and ask if i could give some tips or advice on something like camera setting what lense i'm using and why or maybe just to have chat about pictures in general, if the person is nice about it then sure i'm more then happy help them out, just as you might ask your local handyman what screws would be best for your home project. and really the same goes for other professionals just last month i got a call from someone in the same line of work as me asking if he could borrow my 50mm since the focus wheel on his broke for whatever reason and it was a 4 hour drive for him to get his other one, and sure i was not using mine at that time, sure he is technically my competitor so really i could care less about his shit breaking right? Indeed but i like to think it's better to build bridges then burning them and maybe i'm just a nice guy, at least most of the time i like to think that i am anyway, but i also link to think i'm not the only who is. 

 

So what does all of this have to do with whether or not modders should be allowed to charge/make money with their mods well perhaps not much since photography has pretty much always been a business whereas modding has always been more of a hobby/freeware thing, but not willing to at least try and evolve and adapt something based only on tradition and the saying; it always been this way, is rather close minded not to say anti progressive. and yeah no need to fix what's not broken but that don't mean you can't improve it.

 

Hell i mean personal transport was around and established long before the first cars came around and when first arriving they were not exactly an improvement, clunky noisy expensive and barely able to break walking speed, but they improved with time, and yeah yeah global warming and all that, but that's what we have history for to keep us from making the same mistake and look for ways to advance ourselves for the better, even if we sometimes hit some bumps along the way.

 

So to conclude, it would seem that we all universally agree that the move made by Valve and Bethesda was not really worthy of the of the gold medal in the field of ways to improve things, to say it mildly, but Rome wasn't build in a day and it would be foolish to think otherwise, but we have the foundation, now we just have to figure how to lag the bricks to the greatest benefit for all parties, both for the companies who has to build it and us the people who have to live there.

 

My ohh my how philosophy can take over at 6:30 in the morning, but yeah if you wanna keep doing things the traditional way fine, i have yet to see any evidence even suggesting you can't keep doing that. but i would like to see things move forward, and some might think or say: How dare you even think that, and to that i say: How dare you say i can't.

 

 

Well, it's great it all works for you like this. It's really *exceptional*.

But let me tell you this - there is no way to compare photoshooting and modding.

They aren't even close.

Your whole post (wall of text I barely managed to dig through) proves that you have no idea about the modding process - licensing for tools we use, disclaimers for resources you work on, tons of other things I won't even bother to list.

 

Modding so far was like a big nice tank full of guppy fish. We were swimming together in perfect harmony.

One paid mod is just like one fuckin piranha. It's just one fish - yet it can turn the entire tank into bloody mess none of us signed up for.

 

Go google "utopia". Take notes how 1 abusive person can destroy an utopia. If that 1 abusive person appears, everyone has no other choice but to start abusing others just to keep their gains and losses balanced at zero.

I know utopia can't exist. Yet we got pretty damn close to it. Sure, there were things to complain about, like stealing mods, assets and so on. We may have been butthurt about that. Still it was pretty minor compared to what paid mods would bring about.

[Vacaliga]

 

So i have been trying to find something to compare this to but so far i have only come up with one that being my own job vs my hobby.

 

 

So i have my own business as freelance photographer and i guess editor, i do weddings, confirmations, special events, fix/save peoples bad holiday photo's etc. Now i also besides playing video games have hobby in nude and light erotica photos which i don't charge or receive money for despite being basically the same as my money earning job, you know point camera > hit shutter > process > repeat, and put just as much effort and often more into the hobby part as to do the money earning part, simply because i enjoy it.

 

So having an income and hobby in the same field is very much possible. And just to clarify it all started as a hobby and only part of it became career, and funny enough i didn't grow horns or had my eyeballs replaced with fat dollar signs when the opportunity to make profit from it came along, but merely saw it as way to do more of what i love doing without starving to death. And i am honestly surprised to see that there seem to very little faith in the community some are so desperately fighting to protect. and sure every community has its share of dark minded people and it always will regardless of whether or not money is involved to a greater or lesser extent.

 

Now as for the part about modders becoming competitors and there by withholding all their knowledge and know hows to themselves again to me sounds a bit paranoid and can again refer to my personal experience. If i'm out working somewhere and a person walks up me and ask if i could give some tips or advice on something like camera setting what lense i'm using and why or maybe just to have chat about pictures in general, if the person is nice about it then sure i'm more then happy help them out, just as you might ask your local handyman what screws would be best for your home project. and really the same goes for other professionals just last month i got a call from someone in the same line of work as me asking if he could borrow my 50mm since the focus wheel on his broke for whatever reason and it was a 4 hour drive for him to get his other one, and sure i was not using mine at that time, sure he is technically my competitor so really i could care less about his shit breaking right? Indeed but i like to think it's better to build bridges then burning them and maybe i'm just a nice guy, at least most of the time i like to think that i am anyway, but i also link to think i'm not the only who is. 

 

So what does all of this have to do with whether or not modders should be allowed to charge/make money with their mods well perhaps not much since photography has pretty much always been a business whereas modding has always been more of a hobby/freeware thing, but not willing to at least try and evolve and adapt something based only on tradition and the saying; it always been this way, is rather close minded not to say anti progressive. and yeah no need to fix what's not broken but that don't mean you can't improve it.

 

Hell i mean personal transport was around and established long before the first cars came around and when first arriving they were not exactly an improvement, clunky noisy expensive and barely able to break walking speed, but they improved with time, and yeah yeah global warming and all that, but that's what we have history for to keep us from making the same mistake and look for ways to advance ourselves for the better, even if we sometimes hit some bumps along the way.

 

So to conclude, it would seem that we all universally agree that the move made by Valve and Bethesda was not really worthy of the of the gold medal in the field of ways to improve things, to say it mildly, but Rome wasn't build in a day and it would be foolish to think otherwise, but we have the foundation, now we just have to figure how to lag the bricks to the greatest benefit for all parties, both for the companies who has to build it and us the people who have to live there.

 

My ohh my how philosophy can take over at 6:30 in the morning, but yeah if you wanna keep doing things the traditional way fine, i have yet to see any evidence even suggesting you can't keep doing that. but i would like to see things move forward, and some might think or say: How dare you even think that, and to that i say: How dare you say i can't.

 

 

Well, it's great it all works for you like this. It's really *exceptional*.

But let me tell you this - there is no way to compare photoshooting and modding.

They aren't even close.

Your whole post (wall of text I barely managed to dig through) proves that you have no idea about the modding process - licensing for tools we use, disclaimers for resources you work on, tons of other things I won't even bother to list.

 

Modding so far was like a big nice tank full of guppy fish. We were swimming together in perfect harmony.

One paid mod is just like one fuckin piranha. It's just one fish - yet it can turn the entire tank into bloody mess none of us signed up for.

 

Go google "utopia". Take notes how 1 abusive person can destroy an utopia. If that 1 abusive person appears, everyone has no other choice but to start abusing others just to keep their gains and losses balanced at zero.

I know utopia can't exist. Yet we got pretty damn close to it. Sure, there were things to complain about, like stealing mods, assets and so on. We may have been butthurt about that. Still it was pretty minor compared to what paid mods would bring about.

 

Okay so after that rather extensive edit of your original post stating that you didn't think the community was ready for a pay for mod model while some of it might be, and teaching responsibility before simply handing out new tools, i would like to add that i was not saying it all had to be done by next week, if i misspoke in a way that made you think otherwise i apologise.

 

 As for your current post you seem to operate under the assumption that i have never created a mod, while i must admit that a part from some minor retexturing and changes to certain thing like armor type / slot / stats and what have you, i have never really bothered with anything extensive, in a Bethesda game if that's what you mean, but nor have i ever claimed to have. and i guess i must have missed that part about your words not being valid or worth considering before having earned your merit badge as started in the unwritten rule book of modding, and im sorry if you take that as a mockery but that is kinda wipe i'm getting from you here.

 

And i'm guessing you missed this part right here.

"So what does all of this have to do with whether or not modders should be allowed to charge/make money with their mods well perhaps not much since photography has pretty much always been a business whereas modding has always been more of a hobby/freeware "

I was not in any way saying that modding and photography are the same thing, rather quite open the to the opposite being the case with perhaps the only joining factor being the creative side both share.

As for you listing on the process of modding not sure if your were trying educate me or impress me or maybe something third, regardless your list does not really differ from the one i have to oblige by, like licensing tools (Photoshop being a common example) and or resources either by purchase or simply asking someone nicely and giving credit when and where it may be needed.

 

In regards to the piranha in your bowl of guppy fish, i think i made it pretty clear that no one including me are trying to say you can't have it the way its always have been, its your choice if wanna take part in paid mods or not, but you're acting as if no one should be allowed to go because you don't wanna go, i am sorry but i have very little sympathy for that way of thinking.

And now you are asking me to google something, your metaphor about guppy fish and swimming in harmony only to be massacred by the piranha made your stance clear enough, where you trying to mock me or just could not be arsed to make your point any more clear i really don't know regardless of the motive behind it did make me wonder what would happen if a student handed in an essay containing only one loose paragraph with a footnote saying: Google it