Ark of Truth Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 So we got Steam to stop paid mods and now we have to stop mod makers from taking it as personal against them. I am a mod maker and even I thought this paid mods thing was a bad idea!
BoozeJunky Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 Did you just compare vandalism to modding...? ... isn't it? Vandals are "mod"ifying a building or boxcars exterior. They don't own those buildings or boxcars, just as you don't own the games you're playing. You own the physical disk... and you're LICENSED to use the software... but you don't own it. Most companies don't want you modifying and distributing those mods to their games (as it forces them to compete harder against their own product lines), though few will do anything about it unless you try to make money with your mods - or port content from one game to another - directly challenging their copyrights. Mods originated as end users just dicking around with hex editors and building software tools to crack into game data files. The only difference is that with the GECK/CK, Bethesda handed the vandals the spray cans and said "Go to town, let's see what you can create". Few companies have done that. Even id (which, I guess is now a part of Bethesda) who's had one of the longest running and most famous mod scenes never officially endorsed or condoned modding, but looked the other way so long as modders stuck mostly to making their mods for the full games, rather than the shareware versions.
jacques00 Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 As a PR student I kinda feel compelled to play devil's advocate for Valve and Bethesda but at the same time I also have to criticise the fact that they seemed to be so surprised by the community's reaction. While they had an interesting idea I feel like they failed every step of the way when it came to implementation. If I had been in charge of the project I probably would have started with something less... blunt. Like forexamplish holding an official modding contest where the winning mods would be released by Beth/Valve as cheap DLC. Neverwinter Nights once did something similar and it worked. Or something like that, and then go from there with little baby steps... But nuh, there was no gradual easing the community into the idea, no limited scope experimentation, seemingly no regard for similar debacles in the past (The Sims) and just the horrible timing. Whose idea was it to change the rules of a 3 year old modding scene overnight? Suddenly dumping the full extent of paid modding on a community that had never ever been exposed to it guarantees a horrible backlash with scientific certainty. But for all the laziness, greed and shortsightedness of the companies involved, I think in this whole mess their faults actually look childishly innocent compared to the disgusting behaviour of both modders and users on both sides of the conflict. After seeing all the silly extremes they went to: pulling out previously free mods and/or retroactively implementing weird DRM measures, witholding source code, stealing and monetising other peoples' mods, charging exorbitant prices on one side... and spamming comment sections, harassing and shaming premium modders privately and publicly, pirating premium mods and probably other awful things I'm happily not aware of on the other... It was the first time I felt so ashamed to be a part of the TES modding community. When everyone suddenly started showing their true faces and doing horrible things to each other I seriously felt like this was a bad dream and I just wanted to wake up. Right now I'm happy I did. Despite their ill conceived idea and inexcusably bad implementation the greedy corporations actually come out of this as the good guys because they were smart enough to put an end to this so quickly and so decisively. It will probably take some time for things to go back to normal and I'm sad that some damage will not be easy (if at all possible) to repair but I'm hoping we have all learned something from this and the next time something this controversial happens everyone will be able to deal with it... better somehow? All of this.
bjornk Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 There is nothing immoral about accepting money for services rendered. Except, modding has never been a "service" that people pay for. LL Rule #12 We are a free and open community; members requiring payment for mods, support, or putting anything behind a paywall will be removed without warning. Donation buttons/links to support an author is fine, so long as nothing is promised, given, or rewarded other than a sense of satisfaction for supporting an author or owner of content.
jacques00 Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 There is nothing immoral about accepting money for services rendered. Except, modding has never been a "service" that people pay for. So the steps of concepting, modeling, UVing, texturing, skin weighting, animating, transferring assets, level design, quest building, dialogue writing, audio recording, audio tuning, audio editing, and quality control are not "services" rendered?
bjornk Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 There is nothing immoral about accepting money for services rendered. Except, modding has never been a "service" that people pay for. So the steps of concepting, modeling, UVing, texturing, skin weighting, animating, transferring assets, level design, quest building, dialogue writing, audio recording, audio tuning, audio editing, and quality control are not "services" rendered? They are, if you are doing them commercially.
Saeros Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 [sorry if I can not express myself properly (English is not my first language)]. for me it's just a matter of quality. I am willing to pay for a job well done, but must be certified (quality check, beta tested, reviewed?). If I do it as a hobby (if only to make known to me looking for a job for example..or simply for single user modding-passion), is ethically correct to remain free (or donation). if I do it on a "professional artist" or high level (recording studio, programming etc.), I create my website and distribute it for a fee (obviously with all the necessary authorizations). IMHO. S.
Kamen Rider Kuuga Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 There is nothing immoral about accepting money for services rendered. Except, modding has never been a "service" that people pay for. So the steps of concepting, modeling, UVing, texturing, skin weighting, animating, transferring assets, level design, quest building, dialogue writing, audio recording, audio tuning, audio editing, and quality control are not "services" rendered? If it's your job, then it is, because you're being paid to do it. It has inherent value to somebody else already. If not, then no; it has no inherent value to anybody but yourself and those you manage to convince that they have value.
windpl Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 If in future if there will be a pay wall. All mods should be in it. Because people that do mods for free deserve to be paid more than sell outs.
Buddy Christ Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 Do we really need to keep fighting over it? Do we need to drive the wedge deeper? How about some make-up sex instead?
bjornk Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 I personally don't like paying full price for half of a game, and then pay more for the rest of the game in terms of DLCs, but I can see that some people are not only okay with it, but they also want to draw mods into that scene and pay for them as well. I find it idiotic.
movomo Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 Another POV I've heard is "what are modders who refuse their free-to-use work to be used for paid mods really about - free to use or not free to use", pointing at at the great deal of open-source software freely made by volunteers that is used commercially. Stuff the entire internet runs on - what makes modders so special then? Interesting viewpoint, if a bit unsettling for me. We tend to like a certain amount of control, don't we - no permission for this or that, "I'd like to be asked before you use it", guilty as charged btw. Does the open flow of ideas and resources that 'free modding' supposedly stands for stem from the 'free from pay' bit or the 'free to use' bit? How free has our modding been lately, in that regard? I'm like, dude, stop because my head is spinning. People need to be able to say those things though; it's uncomfortable but healthy. It has a point, this is rationality. It makes me so sad, and this is emotion. My personal feelings. I really don't know which side is "right", my emotional approach is, "I don't want to know". Sorry if my entire post sounds too idealistic. I love you and I bless you all, this was my basic stance of "licensing (well, awkward)" things when doing modding. Now I'm sad because I can't do that anymore without the feeling of guilt, because I realize that I was lying. It was at best a very conditional thing. I can accept the fact that there are those who want to make money off modding but it's still difficult for me to love them. I never wanted to ask for permission to use my mod, because I thought it's stupid, it hinders creativity, it actually pesters me as I'll always say "yes" anyway, and whatever, but now I have to confess that I feel like asking for permission at least a little bit, because I want to force the users to share it alike. I wanted to force them to do so, because I thought it would benefit more people that way. I've never really thought about it before because it wasn't a part of the equation. It wasn't even an equation because there wasn't math in the first place. I'm sad because I didn't want to learn the fact that there is a thing called math. Sad again because I realize that I've been hypocritic. It's like a childlike person saying I wouldn't have grown up if I knew what it's like. I didn't want to realize the reality because this is where I come when I want to get away from the reality for a while. I wish I hadn't seen all the bloodshed all around, but it cannot be undone. This whole sudden bombardment changed us all. My modding will never be the same, the sour taste will never be gone away. Thanks for everything, Beth and Valve. But when we got blacklists of 'traitor' modders floating around, a two-bit protest mod having a good chance to top out Nexus's file of the month, not to mention these rumours of threats and DDOS attacks I hear, that's on 'us' no doubt. Blaming Beth and/or Valve for stuff they haven't done but is only in our heads as a worst-case scenario, is on us too. I just wish they hadn't, but...different story. If those modders were guilty, they have right to be forgiven. If they weren't guilty, well, what else, they have right to be forgotten. Everyone deserves a second chance. This is probably impossible.
...0... Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 I just wonder though, like teams like SkyUI, what will they do now? Are they going stop working on SkyUI now? Shame some of the modders who supported this got all of the hate and will now forever be remembered for supporting a failed project. Im not sorry they bring this on them selfs not thinking straight there own fault. But i´m not suddenly stop using SkyUi because of this.
Sacremas Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 SkyUI - Bethesda should have bought it and put in the base game. Then Arthmoor could make the Unofficial SkyUI Patch. Tons of weapon and armor mods - put a hundred of them in a bundle as one ESP and let me buy them for 10 bucks. Midas Magic - Totally, if that modder didn't put goddamn pop-ups in the free version, he deserves all the shit he's taking, even literal as such. Mods I would pay for if they were on their own: Falskaar, Wyrmstooth, Moonpath to Elseweryr, Apocalypse, Thunderchild, Dwemertech, Spectraverse, Awake, non-bugged PerMa, Epic Gameplay Overhaul that didn't kill your save guaranteed, Sexlab Framework. Mods I would not pay for: Any of the above coming out with merely an update. Place I would not buy mods ever: The fucking Steam workshop, forcing you to keep the mods in a BSA and auto-updating with no regards to your save or anything such an auto-update would break, and no optional downloads.
Ark of Truth Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 I just wonder though, like teams like SkyUI, what will they do now? Are they going stop working on SkyUI now? Shame some of the modders who supported this got all of the hate and will now forever be remembered for supporting a failed project. It's their choice to quit modding, no one is forcing them. You do know SkyUI hadn't been updated in like coming on a year prior to all this right? SkyUI last Nexus update was 15:42, 9 June 2014..... Im not sorry they bring this on them selfs not thinking straight there own fault. But i´m not suddenly stop using SkyUi because of this. As a company Bethesda make great games, mod makers make mods which bring new users to them. This is something they clearly forgot when they tried this.
...0... Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 The Paid Mods are gone, but the community is still tearing itself apart over it. That makes me sad. It'll die down. I doubt it'll ever go back to the way it was, though. Like GornGrimm said, this became a conflict of world views and ethics, and those are two things that often clash violently. Now that it's been dragged to the forefront in a spectacular manner, it's not just going to go away. People have been galvanized in their opinions and we're going to be seeing modder skirmishes for a long time... No it´s not in month this all forgotten mark my words.
windpl Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 There is one glimmer of hope for mod makers who were hoping to make at least a partial living from their creations. Buried in his Reddit session, Newell confirms "We are adding a pay what you want button where the mod author can set the starting amount wherever they want." This includes zero, so free mods won't be going anywhere. There isn't any sign of a date on this "donate" button but it's good to know there will still be avenue for players to reward creators in future, in a way that won't involve, as Newell so elegantly says, pissing off the internet. Source: http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2015-04/28/steam-paid-mods-killed I wonder how they will set split this time. My wishful best idea would be to set it like it is in humble bundle, you(donator) decide where cash go.
Sacremas Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 Heh, their inboxes being destroyed by protests cost Valve about a million bucks, they earned about 10k from this fiasco. Maybe that will make them think twice next time if nothing else will.
Ark of Truth Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 There is one glimmer of hope for mod makers who were hoping to make at least a partial living from their creations. Buried in his Reddit session, Newell confirms "We are adding a pay what you want button where the mod author can set the starting amount wherever they want." This includes zero, so free mods won't be going anywhere. There isn't any sign of a date on this "donate" button but it's good to know there will still be avenue for players to reward creators in future, in a way that won't involve, as Newell so elegantly says, pissing off the internet. Source: http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2015-04/28/steam-paid-mods-killed I wonder how they will set split this time. Well we can give it a go but it will most likely got change anything.......its just rewording......mods authors will just stick the price from paid as the starting amount and we will be doing this all again. As long as its not blocking users from mods and gives them the option not to pay anything without penalty it will be fine. Still start preparing for the second shitstorm....... My wishful best idea would be to set it like it is in humble bundle, you(donator) decide where cash go. I buy loads of Humble Bundle even if its just one game I buy the entire bundle for it. Why? Because its going to charity, its going to a good cause and I can choose to send 100% of it there and nothing to a greedy corporations pocket. Who face it are not going to miss the money when they make 100,000 if not millions a day.
Starless Aeon Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 To all supporting paid mods and the idea that modders must be paid i have to say only this: remove free mods from your load order and use only mods you paid for or you donated.
Rayblue Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 Now that the crisis has blown off, time for some laughs. http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/65231/?
pornphile Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 To all supporting paid mods and the idea that modders must be paid i have to say only this: remove free mods from your load order and use only mods you paid for or you donated. I haven't read any arguments that say modders must be paid. The only person that can decide whether the modder deserves any money is the person that's looking to purchase. Supporting paid mods and supporting free mods are not mutually exclusive.
Guest privateuser99 Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 i mean we slayed paid mods like alduin. https://youtu.be/U66N0BN6Pro?t=224
pornphile Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 They are mutually exclusive. Only because you've decided to make it so. I can have a preference for free mods while still respecting the decisions of those who choose to sell.
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