guk Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 Well i can see the analogy - having an expertise in a profession (photography vs. programming / 3d modelling etc), then having a related hobby that eventually turns into a paid job (erotic photgraphy vs. professional game production). Still, the erotic photography has existed since cameras were invented, and has been a huge business since around the 1960's to 1970's. And it didn't take 100 years because people wouldn't want to see naked people before that time, but the sexual revolution with its fall of moral barriers made it legal. And erotic art is as old as stone age clay figures, greek and roman culture, renaissance painters and so on. Photography just had the misfortune of being born in times of extreme moral confusion (victorian era? iirc). Complex modding like what we do for Skyrim however, has never been a business. The only comparisons that people bring up are stuff like TF2 hats (WTF, a joke), and the rare cases where mods were allowed to turn into highly successful standalone games. Well if Bethesda had hired Ashal to create a porn simulator using the Skyrim Engine, or Chesko for a Survival / Fishing Simulator, i think most people would have appreciated that. But secretly luring a few modders and hosters (Nexus) on board and simply dropping the bomb on everybody else? I think this had the opposite effect of what they intended - instead of increasing the tolerance for paid modding, everyone's hatred for the idea is higher than before.
Kendo 2 Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 Art asset is probably where it is slightly easier to deal with. I can technically purchase and download a digital picture (textures), and probably able to purchase and download a model (meshes) of something online. Whatever possible legal issues within it should have already been sorted since they are already up for sale. In that sense there's technically no reason why selling of these assets through the workshop can not happen. Setting aside support, pricing, profit margin, since they are just market demands and price adjustments. Unless the assets you purchased are protected by a EULA or other license that prohibits 3rd party sale, since downloaders would probably be defined as having no vetted interest in the content. The only sure-fire way would be for modders to use open license software and make their own models and textures from scratch. The problem is, hardly anyone does that anymore. The big body mods for Skyrim all use photo-realistic textures made and licensed by someone else. Practically every hair mod uses Daz/Poser/Sims models and textures already protected by a licence (a license Bethesda/Valve can't win a court battle against). Over the decade I've been modding I personally know of only TWO popular modders who do the whole process from scratch; Backsteppo and AlienSlof. Everyone else uses non-game assets made by someone else somewhere along the way. Even if there are modders willing to go the hard route, hardly anyone modding today has the skill sets needed to do it. I'm not saying they don't exist, but they are the exception and not the standard. For paid-for-modding to be successful and viable requires people with talent, the desire, and them having a real and tangible understanding of vending in an internet market and the licensing involved. Those people do not exist in the current Bethesda modding scene. And if they do they are remaining silent.
Chaos63 Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 Don't even know who the rest are, but SkyUI kind of owns us...if you want to use sexlab anyway.
Kendo 2 Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 Don't even know who the rest are, but SkyUI kind of owns us...if you want to use sexlab anyway. As long as the mod authors here don't update to v5 it won't be an issue. If modders don't use it, it is basically useless.
Kendo 2 Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 EDIT: The post this post is responding to has been deleted. It was a shitlist of modders who charged for content. Anyway, my response... I don't think there should be a public 'most wanted' list. Outside of making fun of them for getting their asses handed to them I have no interest in smearing them en mass. I'm simply not going to use anything they make. Not gonna download it, endorse it, or comment on it. They simply don't exist as modders in 'my world' anymore. It's not the fact that they want to sell their mods. I'm of the opinion 'go for it and get fucked' because of the current system and serious lack of infrastructure to protect paid-for modding. What burned bridges for me was some of these modders refitting existing content (in some cases mods that had all but been abandoned) for the sole purpose of charging the fan base that made them popular in the first place. THAT is a chickenshit way of doing business.
DoctaSax Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 Let me be perfectly clear: no blacklists, no burning at the stake. LL's not gonna be the last bastion of that. You see it happen in here again, you report it to me. Damn.
Chaos63 Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 Don't even know who the rest are, but SkyUI kind of owns us...if you want to use sexlab anyway. As long as the mod authors here don't update to v5 it won't be an issue. If modders don't use it, it is basically useless. Was there even anything actually new in the newest version? I never got a chance to take a look at it.
mkprovince Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 Don't even know who the rest are, but SkyUI kind of owns us...if you want to use sexlab anyway. As long as the mod authors here don't update to v5 it won't be an issue. If modders don't use it, it is basically useless. Was there even anything actually new in the newest version? I never got a chance to take a look at it. Heard it's just a slight change to the smithing interface. Never tried it myself to confirm that.
Sacremas Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 EDIT: The post this post is responding to has been deleted. It was a shitlist of modders who charged for content. Anyway, my response... I don't think there should be a public 'most wanted' list. Outside of making fun of them for getting their asses handed to them I have no interest in smearing them en mass. I'm simply not going to use anything they make. Not gonna download it, endorse it, or comment on it. They simply don't exist as modders in 'my world' anymore. It's not the fact that they want to sell their mods. I'm of the opinion 'go for it and get fucked' because of the current system and serious lack of infrastructure to protect paid-for modding. What burned bridges for me was some of these modders refitting existing content (in some cases mods that had all but been abandoned) for the sole purpose of charging the fan base that made them popular in the first place. THAT is a chickenshit way of doing business. Would this be a bad time to mention that I'm trying to make Chesko and Isoku move over to Lover's Lab? Truth be told, 80 % of the reason I'm trying is to see Gopher go insane with the idea of having to come over here for his favorite mods when he utterly despises Lover's Lab and can say nothing but shit about it. Yeah, I'm that messed up. On a slightly less messed up point of view, I'm also trying to convince Chesko and others to take their ideas of modding for pay in order to make the next Falskaar that he talked about to Kickstarter instead. Maybe that's legal after the shit Betvalvesta pulled.
bjornk Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 Truth be told, 80 % of the reason I'm trying is to see Gopher go insane with the idea of having to come over here for his favorite mods when he utterly despises Lover's Lab and can say nothing but shit about it. Yeah, I'm that messed up. He'd rather quit the business for good.
tallal Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 EDIT: The post this post is responding to has been deleted. It was a shitlist of modders who charged for content. Anyway, my response... I don't think there should be a public 'most wanted' list. Outside of making fun of them for getting their asses handed to them I have no interest in smearing them en mass. I'm simply not going to use anything they make. Not gonna download it, endorse it, or comment on it. They simply don't exist as modders in 'my world' anymore. It's not the fact that they want to sell their mods. I'm of the opinion 'go for it and get fucked' because of the current system and serious lack of infrastructure to protect paid-for modding. What burned bridges for me was some of these modders refitting existing content (in some cases mods that had all but been abandoned) for the sole purpose of charging the fan base that made them popular in the first place. THAT is a chickenshit way of doing business. Aggree with you K2, mineing someone else's work or re-packing what as out there and near obsolete and then charging is a scam. The other side of the monyitization would be having a paid for mod and so claming rights on quest etc. ideas and once money is in play the low life's (lawyers with more interest in beiing paid than the law) crawl out from under the stone. But as its not happening now and a witch hunt on thoese supporting it (or seamed to) is a waste of time and will do more harm than good.
pinky6225 Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 "This community is disgusting because they expect something that has always been free to remain being free!" I mean, throwing around words like entitlement to describe the above? Seriously? Mod designers are entitled to thanks, to respect, and to funds volunteered. They are not entitled to an immensely exploitable system that would have within six months ended up like Greenlight- full of broken, half done cash grab mods that were posted by people who are unaccountable and had no intention of supporting anything they made and whome, thanks to steam being a free service and Paypal accounts being a thing, will just come back and do it again the next time they need to replace the transmission on their car. For every good, well thought out mod that was made by someone with passion who just wanted to make some money on the side, there would be dozens of cash grab do nothing mods. Within six months nobody would be paying for them anyway and the community well would have been so poisoned that everyone who was actually interested would be torrenting the things. It is a system that was broken, and no iteration of it will work until the modders in question are held to legal accountability, and I wonder, how many do you think would be ok with risking class action lawsuit if their mod suddenly stopped working after an official patch ten months after they stopped modding? Can i have next weeks lottery numbers as your predicting the future* *Infact anybody that has predicted the end of modding/the world/life in general can you also supply me next weeks lottery numbers and then i'll come back with whether you can actually see the future or not in a weeks time. Cheers
DoctaSax Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 If some of those modders came over here to publish, they'd obviously be covered by rule 7. If Gopher were to come over & realize we're not so bad, that wouldn't be a bad thing either. I like Gopher fine, there's no denying he's a positive influence on this thing of ours, and it's a pity there are always lines drawn in the sand like this. If there's anything I take away from all this it's that the community's pretty much the same all over, but more diverse than many assumed. Picking sides is silly, and buys into the illusion that there are sides to pick. Modders v players, old-school v new breed, site v site... it's like West Side Story and I'm officer Krupke
Coopervane Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 Would this be a bad time to mention that I'm trying to make Chesko and Isoku move over to Lover's Lab? Truth be told, 80 % of the reason I'm trying is to see Gopher go insane with the idea of having to come over here for his favorite mods when he utterly despises Lover's Lab and can say nothing but shit about it. Yeah, I'm that messed up. That might not be a bad deal for them actually, they would probably get a lot less crap here than on the Nexus. I mean, we've not burned Aqqh at the stake yet (atleast not to my knowledge). I'm not saying they woulden't get some arguments or harsh looks, they likely would, but the Nexus crowd would give them a lot worse than that i feel. As for Gopher, i never really understood his beef. I know he's got a stick up his bum about sexual content (some people are just boring that way), but you'd think that would warrent apathy rather than hatred twords LL. *shrugs*
DoctaSax Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 Let me be perfectly clear: no blacklists, no burning at the stake. LL's not gonna be the last bastion of that. You see it happen in here again, you report it to me. Damn. Thats really not up to you to decide. Unless I hear different from the boss, it most certainly is.
Kendo 2 Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 Would this be a bad time to mention that I'm trying to make Chesko and Isoku move over to Lover's Lab? Truth be told, 80 % of the reason I'm trying is to see Gopher go insane with the idea of having to come over here for his favorite mods when he utterly despises Lover's Lab and can say nothing but shit about it. Yeah, I'm that messed up. On a slightly less messed up point of view, I'm also trying to convince Chesko and others to take their ideas of modding for pay in order to make the next Falskaar that he talked about to Kickstarter instead. Maybe that's legal after the shit Betvalvesta pulled. I can only make determinations for myself and my bullshit opinions hold about as much water as a screen door in a lake. Just look at the responses to my posts if you don’t believe me. That being said, I think LL needs more 'reputable' mods (even though hardly anyone downloads them). And right now paid for modding will indeed work, depending on the market and who's making it. Have an blog page describing the mod and everything else a mod upload page does. The esp/esm would be free to download and everything else (scripts, meshes, textures, sound) would be behind a paywall. There is nothing Bethesda/Valve could do about it since nothing they stake claim to is behind the paywall. Bethesda does not own 3d models, any art formats, code, or sound files unless they are derived from Bethesda assets. And Valve has no interest in anything unless people stupidly give it to them. It is easy to dodge the Bethesda legal bullet since people would understand they are buying a 3rd party product not under the corporate umbrella. It would be fans paying fans for things that are not technically game content. The only problems would be the market and getting people to actually purchase it. Another way to beat Bethesda/Valve is to do the same thing but have an exclusive membership forum that is only opened by a donation. Again the esps/esms Bethesda owns are free to the public on the main page and the rest of the content is only available to donors. A RL equivalent would be a bar that has free beer and wine. You don’t check IDs or charge for cover at the door. You have people pay to park. The gated and fenced parking lot is private property so the owner can make people pay whatever he wants and check IDs at the gate, since he has the right to refuse access to anyone at any time and restrict foot traffic. So the beer is free but it costs $100.00 to park. Same principle for paid mods and just as legal. Don’t wanna pay the hundred bucks? Park somewhere else. And WHY am I the only one comming up with solutions to the derp-duh-derp moddurz need to be paid bullshit?
Kendo 2 Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 ... it's like West Side Story and I'm officer Krupke Can you make a more outre reference? Oh wait! I can. People holding on to the idea of mods being forever free is like Ishamael clinging to Queequeg's coffin. @ hamguy31 There isn't a sign at Yellowstone Park stating 'Do not ride the bears'. If you get mauled that's on you.
Guest endgameaddiction Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 Would this be a bad time to mention that I'm trying to make Chesko and Isoku move over to Lover's Lab? Truth be told, 80 % of the reason I'm trying is to see Gopher go insane with the idea of having to come over here for his favorite mods when he utterly despises Lover's Lab and can say nothing but shit about it. Yeah, I'm that messed up. That might not be a bad deal for them actually, they would probably get a lot less crap here than on the Nexus. I mean, we've not burned Aqqh at the stake yet (atleast not to my knowledge). I'm not saying they woulden't get some arguments or harsh looks, they likely would, but the Nexus crowd would give them a lot worse than that i feel. As for Gopher, i never really understood his beef. I know he's got a stick up his bum about sexual content (some people are just boring that way), but you'd think that would warrent apathy rather than hatred twords LL. *shrugs* Some people feel more inclided to hold more morale than others. There are many projects from Daz3D, Zbrush, Blender, 3DsMax that use nudity as a base of their project. Both male and female. Though, his case seems to plead over -female-. I call that being e-sexist.I don't want anyone with that type of mentality around here.
Sacremas Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 Would this be a bad time to mention that I'm trying to make Chesko and Isoku move over to Lover's Lab? Truth be told, 80 % of the reason I'm trying is to see Gopher go insane with the idea of having to come over here for his favorite mods when he utterly despises Lover's Lab and can say nothing but shit about it. Yeah, I'm that messed up. That might not be a bad deal for them actually, they would probably get a lot less crap here than on the Nexus. I mean, we've not burned Aqqh at the stake yet (atleast not to my knowledge). I'm not saying they woulden't get some arguments or harsh looks, they likely would, but the Nexus crowd would give them a lot worse than that i feel. As for Gopher, i never really understood his beef. I know he's got a stick up his bum about sexual content (some people are just boring that way), but you'd think that would warrent apathy rather than hatred twords LL. *shrugs* Oh it goes further than that, he's also basically said in a podcast that he thinks every guy that plays a female character - presumably even if she's called Lara Croft - is a pervert. Some people are indeed boring, and weirder than the people they are hating on. And this is coming from an actual fan of his, I love his videos (just not let's plays, they make me sleepy), I'm just an eternal optimist that thinks everyone's eyes can be opened. Oh and I like messing with people too. They did actually make him talk about Amorous Adventures at one point, and even he was interested, but the whole idea of computer generated sexiness just weirded him out. Guy needs to watch more hentai. Also, will be funny to see him react to some scenes in Witcher 2.
bjornk Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 Thanks for the heads up. I'm listening to it right now, will comment on it later. So, Valve's practically offered Nexus some hush money. How despicable...
Nixea Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 I didn't even realize Gopher had an opinion on LL, can anyone link to a video of his where he talks about it?
BruceWayne Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 Doc asked nicely to stop the witch-hunt. We're done with asking nicely and anyone that instigates personal vendettas against individuals, some of which are members of this very community, will be warned and offending posts removed.
Sacremas Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 I didn't even realize Gopher had an opinion on LL, can anyone link to a video of his where he talks about it? Let's not make this a Gopher thread, sorry folks. Then again, isn't this horse kinda glue by now? Unless someone (else than Kendo2 who's been brilliant) can offer constructive views on how modding for pay could actually be done in a realistic manner - regardless of if you'd ever pay for a mod, please don't speak for others, I would have paid as much for Falskaar as I did for Dragonborn had it been released that way - this is just going to go over the same thing over and over until someone gets a bad case of butthurt.
bjornk Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 Oh it goes further than that, he's also basically said in a podcast that he thinks every guy that plays a female character - presumably even if she's called Lara Croft - is a pervert. I wonder what he thinks about female players playing male characters, no wait, actually I don't. He's just an hypocrite.
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