Devious Followers (8 June 2019)

*sshar22* · June 11, 2019

Hi,

is there a way to make the mod aware of installed needs mods?

this is what happened:

DF >plug deal

RND+PAF > full bowel

go to toilet, but with the plug you can't

remove plug and go to toilet again

follower : I can see that you are not wearing the plug ! follower added debt to punish you!

and it continued until the animation finished

S**T literally

had to reload save and suspend DF to do the dirty deed

kind of immersion breaking

Cheers

Reesewow · June 11, 2019

43 minutes ago, sshar22 said:

Hi,

is there a way to make the mod aware of installed needs mods?

this is what happened:

DF >plug deal

RND+PAF > full bowel

go to toilet, but with the plug you can't

That's a pretty specific combo of needs mods, but I don't think the mod would need to be aware of it - perhaps just a dialogue option that pauses deal checking for a minute or so (same effect as the MCM menu but less destructive to immersion). That's somewhat the same way the mod offers Frostfall support, with the "thermal" catsuit to help with nudity deals.

In the meantime - I think your best bet would be to disable the deals that conflict with your other mods.

*sshar22* · June 11, 2019

2 hours ago, Reesewow said:

That's a pretty specific combo of needs mods, but I don't think the mod would need to be aware of it - perhaps just a dialogue option that pauses deal checking for a minute or so (same effect as the MCM menu but less destructive to immersion). That's somewhat the same way the mod offers Frostfall support, with the "thermal" catsuit to help with nudity deals.

In the meantime - I think your best bet would be to disable the deals that conflict with your other mods.

a hotkey for (temporarily?) disabling/enabling the check or the mod also could be an option

Cheers

*Lupine00* · June 11, 2019

3 hours ago, Reesewow said:

That's a pretty specific combo of needs mods, but I don't think the mod would need to be aware of it - perhaps just a dialogue option that pauses deal checking for a minute or so (same effect as the MCM menu but less destructive to immersion). That's somewhat the same way the mod offers Frostfall support, with the "thermal" catsuit to help with nudity deals.

In practice, a less twitchy follower punishment mechanic would solve all these problems in an immersive way, and solve the issue of the follower going nuts with non-compliance fines generally.

This is a big problem when you enslaved via SS, and initially aren't wearing all the things you need to wear that you were just told all at once and cannot even check, and you have about four seconds win the impossible game of Simon-says and remember what they all are, console yourself copies of them, and put them on. (Another nice fix for this would be for the follower to equip all the items and lock them on when they get a new SS slave, you are enslaved after all).

Here's an approach that solves the problem:

1) follower checks for missing items every 10-15 seconds of real time, depending on mod author's discretion.

2) on detection of a missing item, the follower records the game-time that the item was seen missing.

3) the follower gives a verbal warning that if you don't obey you'll be fined.

4) you now have 1 minute real time to remedy the situation - based on checking the time now set.

5) if you fix the problem within the limit, no fine.

6) if you do not fix the problem within the limit, you are fined as expected, and the timer is reset to the current time.

7) if when the timer expires again, see steps 5 and 6.

This means:

a) you won't get fined more than once a (real) minute, and

b) you have at least a minute, maybe even 75 seconds, before the follower will fine you.

That's 20 minutes of game-time - enough to poop I hope!

Also enough to eat or drink, if you have a gag.

I believe that at the moment once the quest stage is entered, this fires every update, which is a bit harsh.

Normally, I like harsh, but the hasty pace of fine accrual can seem a bit unreasonable sometimes.

If your devices are missing, it's rarely because you removed them when you shouldn't.

A minute of grace when you come out of a dungeon, or enter a "town" area makes sense too, and this would also provide that.

I know Lozeak wants you to be hyper vigilant about cell changes, or so paranoid that you daren't remove devices, but it can be an absurdly short time, and it is in no way immersively fair for the follower to simply declares a fine based on an invisible boundary that only they can see - particularly when you are in a position to argue. The warning would fix this.

If the plan is to be harsh on purpose, remove the warning when PC is below (less than) six willpower, but still only fine once per minute.

worik · June 11, 2019

2 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Here's an approach that solves the problem:

That's a good idea. At least good enough for me. ?

Even close to RL play .. err,.. I meant.., ermmm .. it sounds very realistic. Let's do it :blush:

*Hex Bolt* · June 11, 2019

8 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I know Lozeak wants you to be hyper vigilant about cell changes, or so paranoid that you daren't remove devices, but it can be an absurdly short time, and it is in no way immersively fair for the follower to simply declares a fine based on an invisible boundary that only they can see - particularly when you are in a position to argue. The warning would fix this.

If the plan is to be harsh on purpose, remove the warning when PC is below (less than) six willpower, but still only fine once per minute.

Super suggestion! Possibly also add a No Warnings toggle in case someone really likes being paranoid about cell changes. Less frequent compliance polling could also improve performance.

Lozeak · June 11, 2019

Punishment system for dealing with rules, I'll put on a to do list.

I'm guessing a delay between zone changes of like 10 second could be good and a delay between getting a the same punishment spammed would help inter mod stuff.

On 6/10/2019 at 2:08 PM, Cieris said:

Level 3 deal items are automatically equipped by the follower unless it's already equipped in advance, which kinda breaks immersion.

There aren't too many level 3 devices but a lot of them are because the content is written around them.

Whore Deal plug is optional via MCM

Owner Deal V2 belt has to equipped for quest to function

Gag Deal V2 gag needs to be equipped for quest to function

Piercing Deal doesn't force equip it's version of piercing until something happens.

Outside of those examples if there is a mistake I made let me know.

Immersion... i don't understand how that the follower equipping devices on relative to the deal is immersion breaking stage 3 deals are always different from stage 1-2 deals in some way.

Not liking them, I do get that. Hence why you notice I didn't do this till later (V2s of deals and Peircing and Whore deal being the 4th and 5th deal I added) meaning you can turn the content off and no use it. I also know that having fixed tier 3 behind devices people like can be an issue, hence the modular deals.

===========================

So stopped work on the other mod but have the foundations done.

I am working on Devious followers, on a decent next version.

There will be the willpower decay system with a kind of notification system tied in that will have certain mechanics to it.

I will hope to add some more stage 3 deals to modular deals.

Then I'll likely release.

*Lupine00* · June 12, 2019

10 hours ago, Lozeak said:

Punishment system for dealing with rules, I'll put on a to do list.

I'm guessing a delay between zone changes of like 10 second could be good and a delay between getting a the same punishment spammed would help inter mod stuff.

Why not let the player decide the durations?

I guess it's two more sliders, or if you use the same duration for everything ... one more slider.

Cieris · June 12, 2019

15 hours ago, Lozeak said:

Immersion... i don't understand how that the follower equipping devices on relative to the deal is immersion breaking stage 3 deals are always different from stage 1-2 deals in some way.

Not liking them, I do get that. Hence why you notice I didn't do this till later (V2s of deals and Peircing and Whore deal being the 4th and 5th deal I added) meaning you can turn the content off and no use it. I also know that having fixed tier 3 behind devices people like can be an issue, hence the modular deals.

Sorry, I could've worded that a lot better. My original question was specifically referring to level 3 modular deals. I actually much prefer having the devices equipped directly by the follower. The point I was getting across is that since the devices are chosen randomly, you would need to manually equip one of the required devices (or something occupying the same slots) first to get the style / colour you want.

In short, what I'm hoping for is a way to narrow down the selection so that the follower only equips for example, black ebonite devices and not any other styles.

Lozeak · June 12, 2019

12 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Why not let the player decide the durations?

I guess it's two more sliders, or if you use the same duration for everything ... one more slider.

Sure when I add it I'll give it a MCM slider/s

7 hours ago, Cieris said:

Sorry, I could've worded that a lot better. My original question was specifically referring to level 3 modular deals. I actually much prefer having the devices equipped directly by the follower. The point I was getting across is that since the devices are chosen randomly, you would need to manually equip one of the required devices (or something occupying the same slots) first to get the style / colour you want.

In short, what I'm hoping for is a way to narrow down the selection so that the follower only equips for example, black ebonite devices and not any other styles.

I get what you mean (I think) I'll look into a way to make the LDC use sets first.

I'll likly have it off by default.

*legraf* · June 13, 2019

On 6/8/2019 at 6:43 PM, Starphyre said:

Free me didn't halt the issue. Interestingly enough, it also doesn't terminate the Chloe quest.

I went back into a save in helgen keep before meeting chloe, and before adding her as a follower, I removed her from the DF framework. Upon exiting the cave, the fast travel issue popped up again. So my issue is cause by something in the Chloe quest.

It's surely too late, and this probably wasn't your trouble anyway, but one other mod to be aware of that can block fast travel is Devious Devices - Equip. It's this one which kept resetting fast travel for me, and one often overlooked.

Starphyre · June 13, 2019

On 6/9/2019 at 4:24 AM, Zagzaguel said:

If nothing helps, theres a console command to enable fast travel ("enablefasttravel 1") ((0 to disable)

DOH!

Heh. I'll remember this on my next restart. I just bypassed the Chloe quest, and went around Helgen to Riverwood. And that was 13 levels ago!

*Makes a note of the command in my Skyrim Excel sheet.*

Thanks!

Sucker343 · June 14, 2019

Weird first follower wants payment but it is not detecting my second follower. Probably wants to give free services.

Using with EFF.

*Hex Bolt* · June 14, 2019

19 minutes ago, Sucker343 said:

Weird first follower wants payment but it is not detecting my second follower. Probably wants to give free services.

If by detecting the second follower you mean also having Devious Follower dialog lines, the mod only treats one follower as "devious". The other has standard behavior. For daily payments, there should be a slider for you to set additional amounts per extra follower.

Zaflis · June 14, 2019

On 6/13/2019 at 6:40 AM, Starphyre said:

*Makes a note of the command in my Skyrim Excel sheet.*

2 more commands to add to it here... I had a truly annoying follower last time.

But first i used Windhelm boat to travel to Solstheim and i landed on water (I still don't see the boat in there much later and neither a Raven Rock fast travel location, that cursed place... Was still able to find NPC on the docks and continue DragonBorn quest if i wanted.). Did some adventuring there, never seeing my follower even after entering houses and waiting, and then went back to Skyrim => follower stuck in T-pose on the Windhelm's boat. After some reading in the web i had to select her and use command "toggleai".

The next one was in a cave with some bandits, she would just keep hitting some corpse with lightning spell after combat was over. I could enter the hidden sneak mode and there were no red dots left in compass. And the command to solve that was again selecting the follower and "stopcombatalarmonactor".

Sucker343 · June 14, 2019

2 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

If by detecting the second follower you mean also having Devious Follower dialog lines, the mod only treats one follower as "devious". The other has standard behavior. For daily payments, there should be a slider for you to set additional amounts per extra follower.

I see.

*Lupine00* · June 16, 2019

Regarding Willpower...

It's great that wearing devices can sap willpower, however I think not wearing nice clothes or comforting armor could also reduce willpower.

I think it would be very effective if being naked either reduces or caps your willpower.

So, for example, if you have willpower X, if you're currently naked, it's treated as X minus 2.

e.g. if naked: Effective Willpower = Max(0, Actual Willpower - 2)

And maybe, wearing good gear could even give a bonus?

e.g. if wearing non-devious item over value 1000: Effective Willpower = Min(10, Actual Willpower + 1)

Reesewow · June 16, 2019

More of a user question than a bug report - could anyone confirm that over-debt endless mode punishments are functioning in their game?

I'm referring to the feature where if you are over the debt threshold, the follower should approach you some time after the "your follower is angry" message and demand you pay them or take deals/gold mode ect. I simply can't get this event to trigger in my game, and my debt is currently about double the allowable threshold. Looking at the various conditions and quest variables in my game and in TES5Edit I don't see anything obvious that would be blocking the trigger, but there are a lot of conditions and it is possible a mod in my game could be causing one or more of the conditions to fail.

If it is working for other people I have to assume that I'm failing the conditions somehow, but if it isn't working for others as well I'd rather avoid going down that rabbit hole.

freetheporn · June 18, 2019

Would you potentially be willing to set the minimum daily pay to 0 gold? I'd rather than racking up debt for merely having a Deviant Follower in my party, but I love the idea of them taking advantage of me after stumbling into some devious loot, proposing me a deal, and possibly slipping down the slope of debt to slave-hood.

*Hex Bolt* · June 18, 2019

2 hours ago, freetheporn said:

Would you potentially be willing to set the minimum daily pay to 0 gold?

You can actually do that yourself: set _dflowDebtPerDay to 0

Not as nice as using the MCM but you can do it right now.

freetheporn · June 19, 2019

Cool, thank you very much for the info! Hopefully it will make it into the mod, but if not that'll work for me!

seanthiar · June 19, 2019

On 6/16/2019 at 6:01 AM, Lupine00 said:

Regarding Willpower...

It's great that wearing devices can sap willpower, however I think not wearing nice clothes or comforting armor could also reduce willpower.

I think it would be very effective if being naked either reduces or caps your willpower.

So, for example, if you have willpower X, if you're currently naked, it's treated as X minus 2.

e.g. if naked: Effective Willpower = Max(0, Actual Willpower - 2)

And maybe, wearing good gear could even give a bonus?

e.g. if wearing non-devious item over value 1000: Effective Willpower = Min(10, Actual Willpower + 1)

There is a logical problem with Sexlab Aroused - because you can make the char an exhibitionist. Being naked is then nothing negative - It's positive. It could be dynamic in cowork with "Spank that ass" - when the char does not like spanking the red ass/tits are embarrasing and being naked is then negative even for an exhibitionist, but when the char likes spanking the red color is a badge of honor and got a positive effect.

Same problem with "captured dreams". You can make the char sub or dom, maso or sad. For a dom or sad char being naked could be negative if the char is not exhibitionist and for sub/maso it's a part where you can argue because for some in RL it's negative and for some positive.

Another part could be not able to see could lower the effect because you could imagine there is nobody able to see if there is someone naked.

Reesewow · June 19, 2019

48 minutes ago, seanthiar said:

There is a logical problem with Sexlab Aroused - because you can make the char an exhibitionist. Being naked is then nothing negative - It's positive. It could be dynamic in cowork with "Spank that ass" - when the char does not like spanking the red ass/tits are embarrasing and being naked is then negative even for an exhibitionist, but when the char likes spanking the red color is a badge of honor and got a positive effect.

I'm not sure being an exhibitionist or a masochist necessarily means being naked or spanked would have the opposite effects regarding Willpower - in my mind arousal and willpower are completely different things. Why willpower goes down could be slightly different - a non-exhibitionist gets her willpower worn down by humiliation at being exposed, while an exhibitionist gets worn down by all the excitement over time (plus probably sitting at 100 arousal all the time).

In my game, being an exhibitionist or a masochist is definitely *not* a good thing for my character because Deviously Cursed Loot is always waiting for my arousal to get out of control. :classic_tongue:

*Lupine00* · June 19, 2019

9 hours ago, seanthiar said:

There is a logical problem with Sexlab Aroused - because you can make the char an exhibitionist. Being naked is then nothing negative - It's positive. It could be dynamic in cowork with "Spank that ass" - when the char does not like spanking the red ass/tits are embarrasing and being naked is then negative even for an exhibitionist, but when the char likes spanking the red color is a badge of honor and got a positive effect.

You can let the player set a slider for exhibitionism, or have a tickbox, or look up the value in SexLab.

I think that willpower modifiers should definitely be optional in any case.

Doesn't mean I wouldn't like them though.

A problem with exhibitionism being positive, is that the whore armor deal becomes a positive.

Another perspective...

I think that even for an exhibitionist character, it just means they get aroused by it, but it still humiliates them, and enjoying it is an actively submissive action, it's not "empowering", it's about giving up control, and that means less willpower.

seanthiar · June 20, 2019

6 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

....

I think that even for an exhibitionist character, it just means they get aroused by it, but it still humiliates them, and enjoying it is an actively submissive action, it's not "empowering", it's about giving up control, and that means less willpower.

OK i got maybe a problem mixing the whole thing with reality and other mods. In reality being naked for a sub does not mean arousal and ordered to do something is not negative. To be ordered to do something or to be something like naked makes proud because master gives you his trust to do as it is wanted and work in his interest. A submissive is not always sub to everyone - only to their master and to the people master says. Nearly everyone else is confronted with a person with a strong will and wearing a collar, being naked, visibly marked etc. is a badge of honor, something to be proud of and something that assist their will against everyone that is not the master because their master wants it and it means protection, to be sure nothing bad happens if master did not want it. Even if there are people master gave power to, but that power is never the same as masters and the submissiveness is a lesser degree.
In skyrim you find this in the "Captured Dreams" mod - when you are a slave to master it is said to you in the beginning of the slavery that master is the boss and every one in the house living a floor above of you can order you around, but for the rest you are equal or higher because you are masters personal slave. That's for me the same as in devious followers - you are a voluntary personal slave and other people does not have any right to you until you give the rights away and it gets unvoluntary up to a sold slave - a spiral downwards where your will will decrease with your rank - from personal slave down to free for all. A personal slave with a nearly intact will to the public down to an abulic public slave like the roman slaves that was feed to the lions.

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Devious Followers (8 June 2019)

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