Devious Followers (8 June 2019)

[cailic]

On 5/24/2019 at 6:33 AM, Lupine00 said:

I use both together and I don't have any problems. I'm not even sure how they would interact. Perhaps your game simply got broken somehow.

 

Did you try a new game with them both in?

 

Just test it a bit, get any follower, add some debt from the debug menu. See what happens.

SLApproach and DF don't really conflict, but you're probably best off loading DF after SLApproach, just to be on the safe side.

I apologize for it taking so long to get back to you.  I've been out of sorts lately.  But I found that a new game wasn't necessary.  I uninstalled both mods, did a clean save.  I then installed Sexlab Approach Redux and made another save.  Then I installed DF and things SEEM to be working fine now.  At least so far.

[Schalli1980]

Hi, i have a little question.

After the update of dd integration and expansion (both to v4.2) the MCM settings of the modular deals is gone. Is that normal?

The new deals (Wolf, Bear, Dragon etc.) still work. It's just about the mcm settings.

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, Schalli1980 said:

After the update of dd integration and expansion (both to v4.2) the MCM settings of the modular deals is gone. Is that normal?

No not normal. Doesn't happen for me.

[Schalli1980]

23 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

No not normal. Doesn't happen for me.

well the first few hours of playing i also didn't had that problem. now i deactivated DF. Load my game without it. waited a little for the mcm to dissappear. Saved and exit game. After that i used a savegame cleaner. and reactivated DF. now the settings are back but somehow cursed loot doesn't work right anymore. By reinstalling DF some files of cursed loot where overwritten. But these files were just the Mittens DF is using. i enabled the screen messages of cursed loot and the check starts by looting a container. the messages 'checking for rare keys etc. appeard, than looting container XY whatever and normally the applifier message would come and after that if there is cursed loot or not but that didn't happen. i think responsible for all that crap happened to my game lately is approach redux. it works with DF and the other mods but it happened more than once that this mod interferred with other ones so i had to use the reset option of approach to get the other mods work again.

[Lupine00]

25 minutes ago, Schalli1980 said:

well the first few hours of playing i also didn't had that problem. now i deactivated DF. Load my game without it. waited a little for the mcm to dissappear. Saved and exit game. After that i used a savegame cleaner. and reactivated DF. now the settings are back but somehow cursed loot doesn't work right anymore. By reinstalling DF some files of cursed loot where overwritten. But these files were just the Mittens DF is using. i enabled the screen messages of cursed loot and the check starts by looting a container. the messages 'checking for rare keys etc. appeard, than looting container XY whatever and normally the applifier message would come and after that if there is cursed loot or not but that didn't happen. i think responsible for all that crap happened to my game lately is approach redux. it works with DF and the other mods but it happened more than once that this mod interferred with other ones so i had to use the reset option of approach to get the other mods work again.

I don't think so. I use all those mods without any of the problems you report. Your problems are probably coming from a game that you have corrupted somehow during mod updates so you are missing script files from something. Either that, or it's a bad LO, or some other mod you haven't mentioned ... or some other strange thing you've done but haven't mentioned, or perhaps forgot about.

[Schalli1980]

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

I don't think so. I use all those mods without any of the problems you report. Your problems are probably coming from a game that you have corrupted somehow during mod updates so you are missing script files from something. Either that, or it's a bad LO, or some other mod you haven't mentioned ... or some other strange thing you've done but haven't mentioned, or perhaps forgot about.

i really don't know what happened here. at first on the same savegame everything worked. then i've got after 17 hours of playing the problem with DF wich is now solved after new installation. but now i got a new problem that cursed loot isn't working anymore. well at least the cursed loot events (traps only)!

Cursed loot also not working right if i start a new game!

The petsuit also is not given or equipped by devious follower. if i take one from expansion and equip it myself its working and also unequipped if i ask my follower that i will leave town. but the permanent petsuit or at least the one the follower won't take off off you isn't given or equipped eather. next thing i try is to uninstall assets, integration and expansion. also cursed loot and devious follower. after that i will install them again in an different order. i hope this might help but i fear that my savegame isn't usable anymore after that (Again... )

The last time i've run into such problems were when i start to mod fallout 3 a few years ago...

 

i created a log file and that says my character is to low level.

Could you perhaps have a look at that? Maybe i don't really have a problem at all. I used 'setlevel 1' on my character and don't leveled up at that point because i don't want to start slaverun reloaded yet.

 

OK tested it myself. my character is just at a to low level. there was never a problem and cursed loot works fine at a higher level. sometimes i'm really an idiot.

So the only real problem is that the follower is not given or equipping the petsuit on my character. did this work on your savegame? did you ever tested it?

Papyrus.0.log

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, Schalli1980 said:

OK tested it myself. my character is just at a to low level. there was never a problem and cursed loot works fine at a higher level. sometimes i'm really an idiot.

So the only real problem is that the follower is not given or equipping the petsuit on my character. did this work on your savegame? did you ever tested it?

The only real problem?

 

That log is a horror show.

 

Your log is full of the sort of error I'd expect to see from multiple mismatched scripts and ESPs.

You also seem to have a file permission problem or something that is breaking your JsonUtil from writing its files - or some issue like that.

 

It's hard to see a mod in there that doesn't have some kind of problem, all beyond what you'd expect as tolerable.

 

If you're using MO, something is broken. Try a new MO install and port your mods over one by one.

If you're using NMM, it's time to clean everything, manually purge your Data folder to be sure, check your Skyrim integrity against Steam, and start over.

 

Looks like you have SD+. Try a game without ANY of it. DBF mods require some care in installation.

Drop BeingFemale, replace with FeritlityMode.

Drop Mia's Lair ... if you have that.

Drop FTM. It causes a lot of script load, and it has other issues I don't have time to drag over.

 

You have massive, massive stack dumping problems. If this is only 17 hours in, your game is toxic.

 

Get rid of a lot of mods and rethink your LO.

 

Go for something minimal like SL + SLA + DD + DF + FM + DCL - that's a lot of functionality to play with - get it all working smooth, see if you can at least reach level 30 or so.

If you can't do it with just those mods in, you're doing something wrong.

 

Whatever you're doing now, something is deeply wrong with your game.

[Schalli1980]

i know that. and if i allow all mods to write in the papyrus log you propably gonna puke (in the end its over 15 MB tall). but in my game i didn't run into problems...well at least most of the time not. some of the mods you mentioned are mods i really like. Beeing female and also mias lair. FTM was a requirement for some mod when i reinstalled everything but i don't know wich one that was.

what is MO?

I use NMM, loot, FNIS and bodyslide. Thats all.

What is FeritilityMode? well i guess its another pregnancy mod but is it immersive as beeing female?

What about SD+ ? Is this mod really that bad?

I need to think it over to completely start from zero. I've spend a lot of time to make my Skyrim as it is now. But if i do i will follow you're advice.

Oh and by the way, you didn't actually answer my question. Does the petsuit given by the follower work? did you tested it?

Could you do me a favor? I never seen a log file where everything is working good. could you perhaps upload your log file so i can see how it need to look if i have installed everything right?

I read my log file myself but all i see is error, error error. but i don't know what this errors mean and how i could fix them without deinstalling something.

Now i enabled all mods for logging and used a papyrus log viewer and i could see that beeing female and SLhorribleharrassement dumping the most errors. i played 15 minutes and the log file is 1.5 MB tall.

150 errors produced by beeing female and 72 by SLHH

[Tiress]

5 hours ago, Schalli1980 said:

Could you do me a favor? I never seen a log file where everything is working good. could you perhaps upload your log file so i can see how it need to look if i have installed everything right?

I read my log file myself but all i see is error, error error. but i don't know what this errors mean and how i could fix them without deinstalling something.

It doesn't exist. Even vanilla game has errors and warnings in papyrus log and even with the same setup there is a big chance the logs of two players will look very differently. Except for those stack dumps it doesn't actually look THAT bad. The thing is not all errors are harmful and without proper knowledge you have no chance of understanding what is going on there. Thats why it's turned off by default.

[Reesewow]

12 hours ago, Schalli1980 said:

Now i enabled all mods for logging and used a papyrus log viewer and i could see that beeing female and SLhorribleharrassement dumping the most errors. i played 15 minutes and the log file is 1.5 MB tall.

150 errors produced by beeing female and 72 by SLHH

One hour of playtime for me generates a log that is about 850 KB, and I have what I would consider a very heavy load order with a lot of scripted adult mods, on a level 80 character and a save file that is years old.  You have serious problems in your game.  However - the mods throwing the most errors may not be the main cause, they may just be the ones most broken by how screwed up the save file is.  Some mods throw a few errors in normal usage - but they should not be spamming your log unless there is a problem (or the mod isn't very well written).

 

Stack dumps are a big problem, and they will make your game worse over time.  I would recommend starting a brand new game with papyrus logging on from the start and check the logs for the first little bit to see when/why you get a stack dump.  If you can see when it happens, and what you were doing at the time, you may be able to identify which mods are trying to do stuff at the same time and overloading your game.  

 

You may also just straight-up just have too many heavy scripted mods running at the same time.  I don't run certain functions of most of my mods, because together they are too much for my game to handle in some crowded areas (for example, I had multiple mods trying to scan and do stuff to NPCs when I entered a cell - in a place like Whiterun's market that would cause a stack dump quite often).  So Beeing Female (which I've heard is quite heavy - I've never used it) and all of your other mods together may just be too much, and you need to reduce the load or change the mod settings if possible to use less of the script engine.

[Lupine00]

13 hours ago, Tiress said:

Except for those stack dumps it doesn't actually look THAT bad.

All those things where it says the property doesn't exist or is of the wrong type - those matter, and they're not normal. Some mods generate the odd warning like this due to a stale script, or improperly updated quest - but that one has (probably) thousands. That's not normal.

[Tiress]

On 5/30/2019 at 11:32 AM, Lupine00 said:

All those things where it says the property doesn't exist or is of the wrong type - those matter, and they're not normal. Some mods generate the odd warning like this due to a stale script, or improperly updated quest - but that one has (probably) thousands. That's not normal.

I'm not saying it is, but trying to fix it all is a task that could take you years for no real benefit.

 

edit:// I think I've made a wrong impression of suggesting that one shouldn't be concerned about warnings and errors in his papyrus log. That wasn't my intention at all. What I wanted to say is that getting rid of those is almost impossible (if not impossible) and unless one experiences problems, he shouldn't spend his time trying to fix them all. Some of them are harmless and some of them are caused by the base game (what a surprise).

[Reesewow]

18 minutes ago, Tiress said:

I'm not saying it is, but trying to fix it all is a task that could take you years for no real benefit.

Depends on how much a user values a stable and relatively bug-free experience - I'm sure some people just roll with it and keep going until the save file is horribly corrupted, then restart.  I know I did that a few times on monster save files - they eventually got so bloated that loading and cell changes started taking actual minutes to complete.

 

However, if a user is here asking for troubleshooting advice - it does mean that the problems are bothering them.  Sucks when the answer is essentially "your save and game environment is busted" - but without fixing that we can't really offer much better advice about how to make the features of a particular mod work.

[Lupine00]

7 hours ago, Tiress said:

I'm not saying it is, but trying to fix it all is a task that could take you years for no real benefit.

No. If your game reasonably well configured, you should only see these messages occasionally, and from a couple of mods that have genuine defects in the distribution.

 

Those errors, on that scale, are a signifier of a systemic failure in the modding approach, and when the process error is resolved, most of them will go away. The difference will instantly be obvious in the amount of log spam.

 

This is not a situation where there are one or two tiny problems. This user has been reporting consistently broken games. Had a broken game in the last report, and their log is perfectly reflective of it.

 

They are doing something wrong. Consistently. It's not a one mod problem, it's not a minor LO problem, it's not a simple forgot to run FNIS or didn't Bodyslide problem.

 

However, they have not provided any information about their environment, or modding processes that would allow anyone on this forum to help them resolve a problem this fundamental.

 

I think there is some key piece of information this person needs to get before they can fix their game, and then they will be able to resolve most of their big problems at once. Perhaps it's a problem with how they used their mod-manager. Perhaps it's due to some merges they created. Perhaps it's simply a corrupt file system. We lack the kind of information that could help fix these problems because the user only reports isolated symptoms and rarely gives any information about how they update their game.

 

In any case, these are not DF problems. The user should seek general modding advice, on the STEP forum, or someplace like that. They need to fix their fundamentals.

The DF forum is not well served by being used as a general Skyrim help forum.

[Lozeak]

Small update a few tweaks and bug fixes.

Wish I had more content for you and I know how disappointing to see an update is but for no new content!!!!!

 

Basically, life is complicated blah blah ect.

 

No idea when I'll get back into modding yet but I still check back from time to time ^^. 

[Reesewow]

4 minutes ago, Lozeak said:

No idea when I'll get back into modding yet but I still check back from time to time ^^. 

No pressure, it's a hobby after all!

 

Going to test out the v2 changes with this version, as I was feeling the itch to have a devious follower again after doing some solo quest mods.  Plus I just recently installed Spank That Ass which can cause willpower loss if you get spanked too often, so will have to test how that works in practice.  Thanks for the update as always.

[Lupine00]

@Lozeak

Just curious, how much of the dialog condition stuff in my tiresome chain of PMs is addressed in the latest release?

Just the Frostfall suit?

Suit issues in general?

Whore armor issues?

Or the broader issues?

 

Also, is this just condition changes, and some minor script tweaks, or were there property value changes that would prevent upgrade in place?

 

I know I could diff the scripts and the ESP, but that only helps me, and leaves everyone else in the dark about what to expect?

[Darkwing241]

3 hours ago, Lozeak said:

Small update a few tweaks and bug fixes.

Wish I had more content for you and I know how disappointing to see an update is but for no new content!!!!!

 

Basically, life is complicated blah blah ect.

 

No idea when I'll get back into modding yet but I still check back from time to time ^^. 

Hey don't underestimate the power of bug fixes.  The better a mod runs the more fun it is.

[Lozeak]

@Lupine00

Firstly, your messages are very helpful and while something I can't do or feel aren't needed. They did help me fix quite a few bugs. Thank you!

 

As for how much is fixed ... I had a list I made over a few months + you messages and worked through it.

I tried to fix the things that you said were broken.

I just labeled the Frostfall suit whore armor to fix that.

I corrected some of the conditions to do with stripping items and whore armor ect.

 

There was a property value or to changed but I think upgrading is safe but you might miss a message with the forced potion deal and a little of the deal messages might glitch.

 

I was going to reply tomorrow but I'll just do it here

Things I likely won't deal with

 

Chastity belts: It clunky and it doesn't always fit the content but basically I just don't want to go down the road of having a million things to condition for and build more MCM setting and content for it because some player want the animation to work around the belt and others would like the mod to remove and replace it ect ect. Basically, it's a can of worms I don't want to touch atm. That said there the enslaved thing is a little limited compared to the rest of the mod and agree it could do with more variation and maybe I'll fix /improve it all when/if I get round to it.

 

Making the potion quest a little easier. (I'll tweak the mistype if I remember)

Really it's bad end-lite content more of a terrible danger that could loom over you if you mess up. It's not really designed to work with the game and is off by default. People can tweak it themselves I guess in Tes5edit.

 

Either way, not going to worry about much stuff for now.

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, Lozeak said:

Chastity belts: It clunky and it doesn't always fit the content but basically I just don't want to go down the road of having a million things to condition for and build more MCM setting and content for it because some player want the animation to work around the belt and others would like the mod to remove and replace it ect ect. Basically, it's a can of worms I don't want to touch atm. That said there the enslaved thing is a little limited compared to the rest of the mod and agree it could do with more variation and maybe I'll fix /improve it all when/if I get round to it.

The DF forum shows a couple of common recurring issues:

 

1) followers can't be recruited - this is by far the predominant issue.

2) DD item conflicts.

 

 

1) this is invariably not due to a problem with follower recruitment at all - which is very reliable - it's due to the mod failing altogether, and is caused by shortcuts taken in the way softdeps are implemented. I know many other mods take these shortcuts, but they are wrong. If you look at mods that are reliable in this respect and do not break other mods, they do not take those shortcuts. It's not just some time-wasting anal thing, it's necessary for reliable operation. It does not usually show up in in a minimal test environment, but it shows up when mod combinations are installed in certain orders - and appears intermittent or almost random, but it's not random at all. These errors become more problematic when 2.X added more dependencies.

 

2) this is mostly suits, whore armor and belts. The former two should be fixed now, as they were simply bugs in dialog conditions. The latter is, as you say, more complex...

 

 

It took me some considerable time to go through every dialog in the quests and inspect the conditions for bugs  

I could likely have fixed them all much quicker than it took to list and describe them. Maybe I should have done that and just send the ESP?

However, some things were more open to how they should be fixed.

 

I don't believe that making the suit whore armor fixes everything to do with suits in general, though I agree it should be flagged as such.

 

 

At the moment, belts don't play well with the mod. I don't claim that the only ways to resolve this are the ways I suggested, but it probably does want some sort of approach, of some kind, in the medium term.

 

Assuming the various typos and minor oversights in the dialog conditions are sufficiently resolved, that should clear up a lot of the odd conflicts that were occuring. Particularly checks for the DeviousSuit keyword. Those will fix a ton of stuff to do with hobble-dresses, breast yokes, pet-suits and ... suits in general.

 

Hopefully that will stop most problems where the mod conflicts with itself - those were frustrating for players - as their only workaround would be to pause DF.

 

 

There is probably still some scope for internal conflicts with belts as things stand.

I mean internal to DF, without requiring you to have another mod adding belts - but a lot of players do have other mods adding belts.

You can disable belts from traps and so-on in DCL, but that still leaves some quest belts.

 

If you feel that it's too big and too complicated to resolve with either:

a) removal and replacement

b) content not happening if conflicting belt present

...then what are your choices?

Animation workarounds?

 

I don't think they have any bearing on the core belt conflicts; they are an entirely self-contained issue.

 

Given the design of the content, having animations "work around" it, is pretty much impossible. That's an approach that will never achieve that end, and it's not worth considering for that purpose

.

Though this is a different issue from appropriate selection of sex animations when sex animations are chosen.

 

• If you are playing sex animations for a PC in full-chastity, there's no animation that will work.
• If you are playing vaginal sex animations for a PC in chastity, that's going to look silly.
• If you are playing anal or vaginal animations for PC in a closed belt, it's still silly.

 

I'm not saying that DF is doing this, but it seems like this is the only scenario where you need to worry about animations and it's a single-point fix.

There is code for this in SLD as an example if you feel you need to improve this in DF.

SLD is fairly obsessive about how it analyses orifice access. It may be more obsessive than DD itself.

 

 

Everything else is about managing the belt itself, and either:

c) blocking content and not using it

d) or removing the belt.

 

I don't think a working "fix" is terribly complex ... if you are prepared to upset a minority of the audience.

 

The cheap and dirty solution is for the follower to actively strip (non-quest/non-DF) belts, and charge you for the privilege.

If you then block any content that involves sex when a belt is present, it should fix the vast majority of cases.

 

Either the belt will be stripped and unblock the content, or the belt has to be present and the content should be blocked.

 

 

Make the stripping behaviour optional, and letting the player set the price, with a warning that it can lead to problems, and everyone should be happy.

"No player choices were killed in the making of this fix."

 

A you have only have to add one additional option, and a slider for the cost.

Problem "solved"  

 

It's not as nice as strip and replace, but it's easier and less complicated.

 

As for options around animations; I can't really see what they'd be.

Animations just need to work right, no options are required.

I can't see there being any sense in allowing animations for vaginal sex with belts, or anything but oral in a hobble-dress, or ... etc etc.

 

Most of the time the filter is going to stop these anyway, but in cases where there's no valid animation, attempting to play one rarely ends in anything satisfying.

 

And none of this speaks to the glorious possibilities of Pet Project interoperating nicely with DF. I think DF has to be the one to implement most of that, so it's probably not likely to happen. In my mind, PP is the primary beneficiary of this, and should bear the cost.

 

But ... in my fantasy world ... DF could have special awareness of Pet Project's belt, and remove and replace it. That's a special case for Pet Project, and shouldn't apply to other quest belts, like Queen Sarah's, which is clearly not intended to be removed (ever). Though the PP belt is made impossible to remove, this was an odd decision in PP, and makes very little sense - but PP didn't have DF's good ideas about allowing item removal and then punishing it, rather than creating impossible-to-remove items, which break huge swathes of content from other mods.

 

As I like this idea so much, I might have a look at modifying the sex setup for DF so that it works through scripting phases, where different preparatory or clean-up actions are performed, and then things like removing and re-adding belts would be possible. The SLD model already supports this kind of mechanic - but on reflection, I think I could have done it better and made it more explicit. In any case, I'm not doing anything until the current burst of work on SLD is done, and on that note I need to go off and make my alpha zip.

[Starphyre]

I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but there's a pretty easy infinite money opportunity available with this mod. Which kinda defeats the purpose of the mod.

 

I talk to Leah, and ask her if she has devices. She says Yeah. I ask her about "Everything else" and then ask her for a harness. And a second time, for a catsuit.

She charges me a total of 201 gp debt, which I promptly pay off. I then turn to Tolfdir, who I'm standing next to, and sell him the harness for 461 gp and the catsuit for 377, for a total of 637 profit. Which easily pays for Leah today. (note I'm playing the SE version, but I figured here would be easier to bring this to the mod author's attention.)

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, Starphyre said:

I then turn to Tolfdir, who I'm standing next to, and sell him the harness for 461 gp and the catsuit for 377, for a total of 637 profit. Which easily pays for Leah today. (note I'm playing the SE version, but I figured here would be easier to bring this to the mod author's attention.)

That's more of a DD problem in general.

 

The values of restraints are set quite high compared to any reasonable market value you'd expect them to have based on utility.

 

Of course, normally you cannot sell restraints to Tolfdir, or any other vanilla vendor.

 

You had to get the sell anything to anyone perk before that's possible.

In vanilla there's no concept of "things that shouldn't be sold ever" other than quest items, so even restraints that are in no vendable group become vendable when you have that perk.

 

DF cannot fix this other than by charging more for the restraints, which would complicate the implementation of that feature quite a bit, or render it highly punitive when you do need to buy restraints.

 

With DCL allowing lots of free restraints to drop, they become valuable loot once you have the perk, often incredibly good gold-per-weight-ratio loot at that.

My personal solution is to dump any restraints I'm not wearing in the nearest respawnable container and forget about them.

It's a bit artificial though.

 

You could say similar things about the trick where you give your follower keys so that DCL cannot destroy them.

Or where you give your follower gold, so that it can't be stolen from you.

 

DF could deal with the latter two - the device vending issue is a little more awkward.

In other cases the follower gives you free devices. Maybe you don't need them because you already have one. In that case it's more free stuff.

 

I can give myself loads of money with the console too, but I know that's cheating.

 

 

Here's how I would fix this problem  

Every time you sell a devious device to a vendor, you advance a perk that reduces your sell price for all items by 5% per sale.

Sell enough devious devices and all your loot sells for practically nothing.

Quickly, you reach a point where your loot sells for 1% of normal value, which is the capped limit of that perk sequence.

 

Over time the perk winds back until it's up to 20% of normal. It never gets better than that once you've dropped it below 20.

 

What's the immersive rationale for this? None at all. It's just fun.

 

 

You can fix by modifying your DD ESP so the item values are all low.

However, DF cannot do this, the DD license forbids it.

[Starphyre]

15 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Of course, normally you cannot sell restraints to Tolfdir, or any other vanilla vendor.

 

You had to get the sell anything to anyone perk before that's possible.

In vanilla there's no concept of "things that shouldn't be sold ever" other than quest items, so even restraints that are in no vendable group become vendable when you have that perk

This totally depends on your play environment. You'd have a point, if it was DF in a vacuum. However, in a different play environment, one with Devious cursed loot involved, the selling of restraints is part of the experience. Thus it becomes irrelevant that I have the 'Merchant' perk and sold it to Tolfdir, or went to Dawnstar and sold it to the Dollmaker herself with no perk. 

 

15 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

With DCL allowing lots of free restraints to drop, they become valuable loot once you have the perk, often incredibly good gold-per-weight-ratio loot at that.

My personal solution is to dump any restraints I'm not wearing in the nearest respawnable container and forget about them.

It's a bit artificial though.

 

With the Dollmaker having 31000 gold, they are valuable loot before the perk too. The only difference being I don't have to go to Dawnstar.  And that particular option, dumping them in a container,  isn't available to me. With Bondage Lover checked, selling the restraints is the only way to get them out of my inventory.

 

15 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

DF cannot fix this other than by charging more for the restraints, which would complicate the implementation of that feature quite a bit, or render it highly punitive when you do need to buy restraints.

I don't see how the follower charging at least the minimum of the max price you could get for selling the restraint is punitive, when A) The Dollmaker will charge more, and b) at level 35, I'm paying the follower 20 times what she charged me for the restraint PER DAY. (at default settings 300+(35*50)=2050 gold. Making the item 450 instead of 100 seems pretty trivial 

 

15 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

You could say similar things about the trick where you give your follower keys so that DCL cannot destroy them.

Or where you give your follower gold, so that it can't be stolen from you.

I feed my extra keys into the chest, one at a time outside of my Falkreath house. (Lakewood Manor?) I don't view that as a cheat, just common sense. And the chance to lose them is still pretty high

And I turned off all the robbing chances in the MCM

[Lupine00]

8 hours ago, Starphyre said:

You'd have a point, if it was DF in a vacuum.

But I made that point that it isn't in a vacuum too. The situation can vary so considerably it's hard to say what should be done about it to satisfy most people, that was my point, if I had one, and possibly I didn't.

 

It might be that most people are fine with it as it is, or maybe they aren't. I don't know.

It seems a really low priority issue though, because when you exploit it, you know you're cheating, and if you want to cheat that can't be stopped.

There are limitless other cheats. Some of which are easy to block in a way that doesn't cause any knock-on problems.

8 hours ago, Starphyre said:

b) at level 35, I'm paying the follower 20 times what she charged me for the restraint PER DAY. (at default settings 300+(35*50)=2050 gold. Making the item 450 instead of 100 seems pretty trivial 

Again, entirely situational, in a different game, there's no Dollmaker, and the follower charges differently.

 

In this case, now you are privileging your personal setup.

 

For example, in my game, cash is very hard to come by, so I don't need large follower fees, and couldn't pay them if they existed. You approach would make the entire feature extremely punitive to me, because 600 for an armbinder is the haul from two dungeons. But I don't vend the DD items, I destroy them.

 

I don't have a good answer to this, and why should I? It's not even my problem  Maybe Lozeak has an idea...

[Starphyre]

11 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

For example, in my game, cash is very hard to come by, so I don't need large follower fees, and couldn't pay them if they existed. You approach would make the entire feature extremely punitive to me, because 600 for an armbinder is the haul from two dungeons. But I don't vend the DD items, I destroy them.

 

MY approach? I'm using the default values.

 

11 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Again, entirely situational, in a different game, there's no Dollmaker, and the follower charges differently.

Sure, but we've both heavily referenced DCL, and in DCL, she exists.

 

11 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

In this case, now you are privileging your personal setup.

No. I never asked for a fix. I posted it as an FYI. My personal setup in this case is my testbed, where I try new things before I decide I want to play them in a 'live' playthrough

In my normal playstyle I make more than enough money through enchanting to fund the mod. I've started a new game, and my character in that game, although level 7, has never once been totally unbound...so Chloe is on the verge of enslaving her. Although since I finally made it to an enchanting table, I could probably pay off her deals, I might not for rp reasons.