Devious Followers (8 June 2019)

[Reesewow]

50 minutes ago, HexBolt8 said:

Random events need not necessarily be brief, just simple.  For instance, a while back I believe it was Lupine00 who mentioned the idea that a follower might decide to loot a randomly selected dungeon.  You have a set period of days to loot the boss chest there or face a penalty (with possibly a reward for success).  Fairly simple in design, it would drive your decisions for several days.  Some players might find that disruptive, so it could be toggled.  It's not "devious" but it is another way for the follower to control your goals, while letting you decide the details.  A variation might be "I have business at [randomly selected palace, store, or inn], you have x days to get us there", though that feels weak without something to actually do upon arrival (unless there's a new "game", though that kicks up the development effort). 

IMO these are great ideas and would fit really well with the theme of the mod. 

 

I'm not sure how simple that particular example would be to implement in a way that felt good - at least based on my past experience with mods trying to do radiant quests.  As you say, those quests kind of beg for a decent payoff as well.

 

Skyrim seems to *love* to send you to dungeons that are gated by major quest lines unless a mod author bends over backwards to blacklist or build in quest stage detection.  Pretty sure the old Zad Devious Devices questline sent to Nchardak on two separate save files - the Solsteim dwemer ruin gated behind several layers of the Dragonborn main quest.  Plus I think I spent half of my current save game with a radiant Missives/Notice Board quest telling me to retrieve a necklace from a ruin I couldn't access unless I did vanilla questlines.

 

Of course, all that is mitigated somewhat by a robust MCM debug menu or just eating the failure punishment - just doesn't feel great when a mod gives you an impossible task.

[Reesewow]

8 minutes ago, Zagzaguel said:

Whats wrong with both?

Oh, nothing at all wrong with both - the more things the better.  I'm just speaking to the fact mod authors have limited time and can't do "all" the things - and if it was put to a vote I'd vote for more of the "big" games over adding mini-events.  That's just because I already have lots of other mods filling the need for small interactions, if those mods weren't available I'm sure I'd also find DF to be a bit too passive.

 

8 minutes ago, Zagzaguel said:

I complain a lot about this straightjacket thing and how its always the same and bla but I honestly dont dislike or even hate it. I just want to see something else sometimes and perhaps do something else when being locked into a straightjacket. Instead its always the same. I know that I sound really negative (and perhaps rude) through those last few posts but I dont hate this event, I just have the feeling that its "haunting" me

I don't recall off the top of my head what that event's exact triggers are, but I think they are something like wearing a blindfold in a dungeon without devices that would block the jacket.  If you find it shows up too often for you, you could probably edit the conditions if you know your way around TES5Edit or the CK.  I don't actually see that event that often just based on the items I usually end up with (I'm more likely to get the pony event it feels like).

 

[Gräfin Zeppelin]

Ooooh I would love followers ordering me aroudn to do some quest/dungeon. Nice idea.

[Starphyre]

On 6/7/2019 at 5:30 AM, Lupine00 said:

Sounds a lot like DCL is to blame. Kimy keeps changing things around quest lockout, event lockout, etc. for game starts, low levels, Chloe quest etc. so it's far from impossible that your game thinks some DCL quest is running and has blocked fast travel for that reason.

 

Quick experiment. Try DCL "FREE ME!!!" button. If that fixes it, it was DCL. If it doesn't DCL is innocent and you can consider other causes.

Free me didn't halt the issue. Interestingly enough, it also doesn't terminate the Chloe quest.

 

I went back into a save in helgen keep before meeting chloe, and before adding her as a follower, I removed her from the DF framework. Upon exiting the cave, the fast travel issue popped up again. So my issue is cause by something in the Chloe quest.

[Lozeak]

Making DF work after SS only.

Maybe : Pause mod then when SS fires and unpause mod. This may work.

 

A lot of stuff on the way the mod is designed/difficulty/content length:

So the basic anwser is it's that way cause I made the mod for myself and I like it that way!!!

 

DF was made cause I wanted some player enslavement content that didn't overtake the game.

Scenes are short cause even when they become repetitive I rarely feel .... ffs I'll just reload cause I don't want to spend 10 mins doing that and because the dialog can vary and you can end up in different locations, I'm pretty happy with the result. Maybe one day in the future I'll have longer scenes/content but I think that would suit other mods better.

 

Difficulty, it's just one of those things because DF runs with a players environment it's impossible for me to balance the game for it to just work. It's the reason I added chaos mode though cause I felt I couldn't get the setting in a sweet spot but in chaos mod I can set some Impossible-Easy settings then let the dice to the work, eventually I get caught out and struggle to escape. The nice thing is sometimes I get unlucky and get in a hole so deep I quit the game but most of the time I escape for it to happen again. Other people will find other solutions and share them here. 

 

Immersion... in some ways it's a weaker part of the mod but it's probably because I don't really feel the loss of immersion myself so trying adjust it so it's a little more immersive is not something I'm as inspired to do, I do try based of peoples feedback and have a list of something I need to do.

 

Some of the problems are things outside of what I feel this mod should be about so I just leave it and if I get a chance to do it in another mod I will, like changing the game so you need a follower as an example.

 

Radiant quests or go to X location, I do like the idea of the follower going, let's go to X and do this like a dominant follower mod did in New Vegas

Radiant dungeons kind of thing, it's a good idea but I don't like them a huge amount mainly cause some dungeons are a joke and other impossible and I'd have to avoid quest ones and I'd have to think about distance. Basically, it's not something (At this moment in time) because for me to like it I'd have to spend A LOT of time getting it to work right.

 

Either way, I usally add content as it inspires me.

Currently, I'm trying to create a system were willpower falls over time based of deals and maybe things that have happened to you and trying to tie in some notifications/comments to make have a feel to it.

But basically once you have a stage 3 deal your willpower will decay over time and by it's self you may maintain it but add another deal + you get defeated a few times you'll easily be caught out with less willpower.

 

4 hours ago, Zagzaguel said:

I complain a lot about this straightjacket thing and how its always the same and bla but I honestly dont dislike or even hate it. I just want to see something else sometimes and perhaps do something else when being locked into a straightjacket. Instead its always the same. I know that I sound really negative (and perhaps rude) through those last few posts but I dont hate this event, I just have the feeling that its "haunting" me

 

I don't mind complaints even if they do sound negative. I do know the reason you make them is because you enjoyed my mod enough to encourage you to give feedback and give out ideas. Which I do appreciate.

 

I think Lupine00's post if read the wrong way can be seem like he's saying "Oh your mod is broken and should work like this and all you had to do was this" when really he's just giving detailed feedback explaining a problem and suggesting a solution.

 

Honestly, good feedback sucks to read cause people tell you where you suck but at least you know. Of course it's nice to hear "I love you mod, I use it all the time now" but it doesn't help fix problems. 

 

[Lupine00]

45 minutes ago, Lozeak said:

I think Lupine00's post if read the wrong way can be seem like he's saying "Oh your mod is broken and should work like this and all you had to do was this" when really he's just giving detailed feedback explaining a problem and suggesting a solution.

Some modders are very sensitive about this sort of feedback, but Lozeak is awesome with it.

If I meant to say "your mod is broken" I would say it   Even then, there's the implication that what is broken can be fixed.

Spoiler

There were some things I raised not so long ago that looked like they were bugs - in the sense that they weren't achieving the apparent intention of the author. Now I can't know the authors intent, but sometimes it seems pretty clear. If I find things like that, I imagine the author probably wants to know. Some things it's helpful for everyone to know, so its useful to post them on the forum. Some other detailed bug reports are probably not so useful on the forum.

Dialog conditions are a nightmare, and no matter how careful you are, there always seem to be a need for one more. When DD is involved, or vanilla factions, this seems especially true. It's not a reflection on anybody that they have some bad or missing conditions. That is just the process of Skyrim mod development.

 

Maybe I don't say often enough... Like it's author's handling of feedback, DF is also awesome. I cannot imagine using followers in Skyrim without it.

 

 

Sure, it isn't written in a way that is ideal for expansion or maintenance, and part of that is that the code uses some cryptic variable names, and undocumented magic numbers are buried literally everywhere (though that is hard to avoid in Skyrim mods). None of that matters for users. They don't care if a quest variable is called _df_FollowerDialogue or simply Q. Lozeak actually has a personal reason for those short names, so I have to forgive them.

 

There are times DF has been broken, quite literally - even if it was only two lines of code that stopped it starting - and that just happens with code sometimes.

There isn't a software product out there that doesn't have some bugs. Some have a lot, and are still very popular (Office for example).

Lozeak usually gets it fixed pretty quickly.

That's as much as anyone can ask.

 

I know it's a dream, but I wish that more modders would understand that their code is not them, they are not their mod, and that when somebody perceives a defect in their mod is not a deliberate personal insult (unless phrased as such), it's either an opinion on gameplay, or useful QA, depending on the nature of the defect.

 

Some modders stamp on any gameplay feedback that has even a tiny hint of dissatisfaction about it as "just an opinion".

I think they'd have a happier life if they absorbed that most readers realise that already.

Of course it is an opinion! Why would anyone see it as anything else?

 

We all have ideas about what would be better. That doesn't create an obligation for modders, or imply a belief that there is an obligation.

We are entitled to our ideas. And whether or not we are entitled to share them, I think it is better if we can.

 

Even if you are charging for a software product, you cannot satisfy every customer request - you make a decision about how to please the most customers as much as you can - nobody expects even that much from a free mod.

 

Mods go their own way, for their own reasons. Sometimes, everyone gets lucky.

[HexBolt8]

1 hour ago, Lozeak said:

Radiant quests or go to X location, I do like the idea of the follower going, let's go to X and do this like a dominant follower mod did in New Vegas

Radiant dungeons kind of thing, it's a good idea but I don't like them a huge amount mainly cause some dungeons are a joke and other impossible and I'd have to avoid quest ones and I'd have to think about distance. Basically, it's not something (At this moment in time) because for me to like it I'd have to spend A LOT of time getting it to work right.

I'm not trying to push the idea, it was just an example of something that can take a while for the player to complete but doesn't require an author to write a lot of new content, and which has the follower being more active.  If the dungeon thing doesn't appeal to you now Lozeak, that's all good, it's your mod and your vision.  IF you ever revisit the idea, I thought there was a way to check for quest-locked dungeons (or maybe you do really have to build a list), and if distance is a concern it could (and probably should) be limited to the current hold (you wouldn't want to be on Solstheim and get sent somewhere near Markarth.  And if the dungeon seems too hard, one can just fail the assignment and take the penalty (maybe the follower was secretly hoping you'd do that?).

[Lupine00]

51 minutes ago, HexBolt8 said:

Radiant dungeons kind of thing, it's a good idea but I don't like them a huge amount mainly cause some dungeons are a joke and other impossible and I'd have to avoid quest ones and I'd have to think about distance. Basically, it's not something (At this moment in time) because for me to like it I'd have to spend A LOT of time getting it to work right.

I believe the dungeons selected for radiant fetch quests are selected from the pool of small, easy dungeons, by design, though there may be some exceptions.

 

As you can specify certain criteria, you can control this to some extent.

 

If you require bandits, you ensure nothing too difficulty. Even with Deadly Wenches, bandits are generally possible. (SD Cages, and various other bandit mods can skew this though).

 

If you require draugr, the difficulty will vary excessively if people have mods like Vengeful Wenches. VW can render a dungeon all-but impossible in some cases.

 

Dwemer dungeons tend to be harder than either, but again it would depend on mods.

 

 

If a player installs difficulty increasing mods, like the Wenches series, OBIS, or IC, or they have made other strange gameplay changes (like using Wounds), you can't plan for that.

They are probably expecting/wanting to be defeated a lot, so probably not worth worrying about it.

 

But changes like that are more profound than what dungeon you get for a radiant.

 

Mixing Real Unleveled Skyrim Reborn with any radiant quest is liable to end horribly for the player. That mod makes the main quest-line almost impossible to start, because it makes draugr into lvl 40+ content. In such cases, an OP follower is essential. Even then, if you mix it with VW, you're screwed.

 

 

One way to make radiant quests really "pop" for DF, would be to focus on bandits, then add some special DF bandits dynamically. (See how SD Cages does it). These bandits might be old friends of the follower (for example), or might simply love to play certain ... games.

 

For example, when you run into the tough bandits, the follower runs off, leaving you alone, and you're overwhelmed by them. Maybe you win, and that's that... But if you don't, they capture you, play with you, then ransom you back to the follower. The follower adds the (substantial) ransom to your debt, and maybe adds some new conditions to your agreement after going to so much trouble for you. Possibly, when you're returned you're in devices the follower can't remove, and there's a quest to get rid of them. This allows the follower to take other advantages, or hits willpower, and so on.

 

But such elaborations aren't necessary.

However, when I proposed radiant quest based demands from the follower, it was for an enslaved PC, not normal play.

 

 

As with most things, adding a feature, but making it optional is the answer. There are always going to be games where it causes problems, but that doesn't mean that a majority of players won't get benefit from it.

 

Also, don't overlook the broader powers of the "story" system. You could use it to trigger all sorts of DF functionality, based on events that vanilla tracks.

[Reesewow]

52 minutes ago, HexBolt8 said:

(maybe the follower was secretly hoping you'd do that?).

Or they just really wanted to trick the player into going into a dungeon with devices on.... to test out those new pony mittens or that straitjacket.

[HexBolt8]

23 minutes ago, Reesewow said:

Or they just really wanted to trick the player into going into a dungeon with devices on.... to test out those new pony mittens or that straitjacket.

For Science, of course.  

[SkyAddiction]

7 hours ago, Lozeak said:

Spoiler

 

Making DF work after SS only.

Maybe : Pause mod then when SS fires and unpause mod. This may work.

 

A lot of stuff on the way the mod is designed/difficulty/content length:

So the basic anwser is it's that way cause I made the mod for myself and I like it that way!!!

 

DF was made cause I wanted some player enslavement content that didn't overtake the game.

Scenes are short cause even when they become repetitive I rarely feel .... ffs I'll just reload cause I don't want to spend 10 mins doing that and because the dialog can vary and you can end up in different locations, I'm pretty happy with the result. Maybe one day in the future I'll have longer scenes/content but I think that would suit other mods better.

 

Difficulty, it's just one of those things because DF runs with a players environment it's impossible for me to balance the game for it to just work. It's the reason I added chaos mode though cause I felt I couldn't get the setting in a sweet spot but in chaos mod I can set some Impossible-Easy settings then let the dice to the work, eventually I get caught out and struggle to escape. The nice thing is sometimes I get unlucky and get in a hole so deep I quit the game but most of the time I escape for it to happen again. Other people will find other solutions and share them here. 

 

Immersion... in some ways it's a weaker part of the mod but it's probably because I don't really feel the loss of immersion myself so trying adjust it so it's a little more immersive is not something I'm as inspired to do, I do try based of peoples feedback and have a list of something I need to do.

 

Some of the problems are things outside of what I feel this mod should be about so I just leave it and if I get a chance to do it in another mod I will, like changing the game so you need a follower as an example.

 

Radiant quests or go to X location, I do like the idea of the follower going, let's go to X and do this like a dominant follower mod did in New Vegas

Radiant dungeons kind of thing, it's a good idea but I don't like them a huge amount mainly cause some dungeons are a joke and other impossible and I'd have to avoid quest ones and I'd have to think about distance. Basically, it's not something (At this moment in time) because for me to like it I'd have to spend A LOT of time getting it to work right.

 

Either way, I usally add content as it inspires me.

Currently, I'm trying to create a system were willpower falls over time based of deals and maybe things that have happened to you and trying to tie in some notifications/comments to make have a feel to it.

But basically once you have a stage 3 deal your willpower will decay over time and by it's self you may maintain it but add another deal + you get defeated a few times you'll easily be caught out with less willpower.

 

 

I don't mind complaints even if they do sound negative. I do know the reason you make them is because you enjoyed my mod enough to encourage you to give feedback and give out ideas. Which I do appreciate.

 

I think Lupine00's post if read the wrong way can be seem like he's saying "Oh your mod is broken and should work like this and all you had to do was this" when really he's just giving detailed feedback explaining a problem and suggesting a solution.

 

Honestly, good feedback sucks to read cause people tell you where you suck but at least you know. Of course it's nice to hear "I love you mod, I use it all the time now" but it doesn't help fix problems. 

 

 

 

That reads a bit defensive. You've nothing to be defensive about. Most of your decisions seem to be based around immersion, and DF is pretty seamless. It's quite impressive, really.

 

The rest seems to be more an appeal to users to let you be creative. That's unfortunate, since your personal creativity is on par with your modding peers and lacks for little to nothing.

 

Honestly? You do you. It's worked so far...

 

No one's going to give a shit, and I (and I'm sure others) am personally curious to see what you create next. As an aspiring mod author, I know how much work goes into this, and I absolutely appreciate it. Keep doing your thing... I bet it'll be both useful and creative. ?

[Lupine00]

I suggested followers setting locations to go to using the radiant system as a way to put the follower in control during slavery.

When you're enslaved, it seems odd that you still choose where to go and what to do.

It wouldn't be too hard to make the follower decide to go to a dungeon, or back to a town when they're tired, or to a city to sell.

If the player is handling the pathing and "how" to get there, with suitable incentive, then it's still playing Skyrim without too much spoilage.

 

In those cases, I don't think you ever need to succeed in looting the dungeon, just arriving at it might be sufficient to fulfil the requirement.

However, it's in your interest to loot as much as you can once you get there ... because ... you know ... money?

If you're enslaved, the way you get out of that is to get loot, and opportunities to get some shouldn't be passed over.

If you're in mittens outside dungeons, you can't get much loot otherwise.

 

 

However, followers occasionally wanting to go to a place, and maybe loot a chest isn't so bad either; but I don't feel it adds as much as the enslaved version.

Still, if you have the system, you could use it both ways.

 

 

As for defeat situations, that's a problem generally for all mods. Some defeat mods will cause you to be defeated by some quite trivial circumstances, such as a knockback, or health below 50%, or low stamina, never mind setting you essential and playing defeat on bleedout.

 

In some cases, I think you could implement it with a timer - once the follower runs, you have a time limit to defeat the bandits before they magically capture you.

 

Another way is to leverage existing defeat mechanics. After DCL, or Defeat, or DiD has run its defeat event, you blackout the screen and sort things out.

You'd think the authors of defeat mods would make it easy to plug in new scenarios... I'm guessing that's totally not the case for DCL, but might work for Defeat and DiD.

 

I don't think we should be afraid of setting the player essential, but if there's already a defeat mod, the essential bit isn't the problem.

Such mods cast calm effects, change factions, play scenes, port you to different cells, and do all kinds of stuff once they've detected a defeat, and it's probably not what you want.

 

However, it's probably a stretch too far for DF. I think I originally envisaged something based around a faction hack and some dialog, so you might be given a chance to surrender before a fight ensues at all. There are set-ups like this with bandits in vanilla. Combat defeat handling is not really DF's area of interest.

[Kafon]

Some  items my follower gave me are invisible when i eguip them I tryed re instaling this and the requred mods several times and it didnt work

[Lupine00]

9 minutes ago, Kafon said:

Some  items my follower gave me are invisible when i eguip them I tryed re instaling this and the requred mods several times and it didnt work

Which items?

It makes a difference.

 

However, past causes of this have been, in order of likelihood:

1) You didn't Bodyslide them

2) You didn't Bodyslide them because of some annoying Bodyslide group quirk that meant you missed them. Build them explicitly.

3) You didn't Bodyslide them for some other reason.

4) You are running an old version of DD, you need DD 4.2

5) You failed to operate MO, and the Bodyslide outputs aren't enabled.

[Reesewow]

7 hours ago, Zagzaguel said:

Isnt that bad design in itself when even you - the one making the mod - reloads rather than playing the content?

Think there might be some miscommunication there - I believe he meant that the scenes are currently short because that way he is still happy to play through them even if they are getting repetitive.

 

I know I definitely am guilty of reloading or cheating on occasion if one of my other mods triggers a major event while I have other specific goals for my game time (Like getting set to Simple Slavery by a Defeat event or locked into a heavy yoke by DCL).  I don't think I've felt the need to do that with DF just yet, since the games are typically one round of fast travel and some sexy times to clear up, and I can disable Enslavement mode.

[HexBolt8]

On having the follower ask you to go somewhere. yeah I wasn't making a distinction about player enslavement.  One way to handle this is that if player is enslaved and does not go, player gets a penalty.  If not enslaved, player gets a reward (debt reduction, removing a deal, or reducing a deal one stage, etc.) for going, but nothing bad happens if the player doesn't do it.  In the latter case, the follower is leveraging an existing deal or debt to encourage the PC to do something the follower wants, and fulfilling the request benefits the player. 

[Lupine00]

58 minutes ago, Zagzaguel said:

Maybe make them transfer to normal gloves in dungeons in general and therefore dont allow them to be unequipped?)

That's a great idea. It would avoid that awkward dialogue problem you had with quest items that make the follower edgy, and just save on friction generally.

Also, the follower could flip the gloves back to mittens any time with a word if they want to go home.

Blocks your hand slot though, so that's the downside to it.

 

58 minutes ago, Zagzaguel said:

A NPC dragging you through skyrim because you shouldnt be allowed to make those decisions yourself seemed impossible to me. I still think its impossible and just too much work to make it work decently but using this system during slavery might be intresting, Im just wondering if having every single one of your steps commanded by your follower might go too much into the direction of other mods. While yes it doesnt stop you from playing the game, depending on what you want to do it could still stop progression

I don't think the follower would be commanding every single one of your steps - as it is put above - but I guess this is not to be taken literally.

It's very different from an SD+ master, pathing badly around the world, randomly walking back and forth, lost, aimless, eventually stumbling into a fatal combat - and the player stuck following no matter what.

 

You still choose the path, the follower doesn't. That's what stops it being tedious.

 

If the follower sometimes decided they wanted you to go to a place, with a fairly generous time limit, and at other times let you wander, it would not be too restrictive.

You can pick your own route, stop off at towns on the way, maybe even detour through a different dungeon. 

And if you really don't want to go, you don't have to, it just means more debt.

(See @HexBolt8's post above - I agree completely).

 

Currently, when enslaved, the follower can get mad and force you to leave a dungeon. Then you have to go back to town, otherwise they'll go nuts with the bondage.

I think this might have been a bit buggy in the past, but could be fixed up.

 

So that's another thing that might limit what you have to do or can do, when you arrive at a dungeon because of a follower demand.

Sometimes the follower decides they've done enough. It's frustrating when you get there and they want to leave right away (probably not working as intended).

 

 

Anyway, I tried to fly these ideas before, and they did not get up. It's probably still a non-starter. Lozeak has a huge to do list already. Even if he liked this, it still wouldn't be likely to happen for some long and indefinite period.

[HexBolt8]

2 hours ago, Zagzaguel said:

but Im not too sure if I like that. There might be a chance that you get rewarded but I feel like you shouldnt always. Its more about how devious your follower should be and how much a follower should act outside of the usual follower behavior. If he rewards you for anything you do the way he wants to it kind of kills the "devious" character, no or perhaps even negative "rewards" should be considered too - altough nowhere near as harsh as when youre not doing what your follower wants you to do

I hear what you're saying, but here's the problem.  The consensus seems to be that if you're not enslaved, the follower can't compel you to go somewhere (by threatening a penalty).  So if there's no reward, the follower is just making a suggestion, and why should you bother?  For me the "devious" tie-in was the promise of debt or deal reduction.  The follower is trading a bit of control in exchange for getting what the follower wants.  And how did you get that debt and deals?  By being tricked.  If you happen to be free of debt or deals, maybe you get a random key or two, which still ties in to devious devices. 

 

Basically the follower is printing influence currency with debt & deals, then spending that free currency to get you to do things.  That seems pretty devious. 

 

Of course, Lozeak has said he's not interested in radiant dungeon delving now, but possibly the concept could be applied to some other kind of activity.  (For anything involving travel, I'd want a generous time limit to allow me to wrap up what I was doing, sell loot, and still have ample time to get there taking a path of my choosing.  Getting there shouldn't be hard, but neither should I be able to indefinitely delay it like most Skyrim quests let you do.  The follower wants to get there soon-ish, not next month.) 

 

For me the key point is finding ways for the follower to actively give the player goals, rather than being a more passive debt/deal machine.  That part IS fun and DOES add a lot to the game; DF is already a really good mod.  I just like the follower to seem more real by suggesting things and providing motivation to do them, as long as I still have a choice (take the penalty or forgo the reward). 

[Reesewow]

1 hour ago, Zagzaguel said:

Altough not entirely immersive, I think its okey if my follower is like "You know, I thought we agreed that we go to [random location] in 2 days. Those 2 days are now over. Thinking you can make a fool out of me??" -> adds debt, even if you have no debt and deals

and if I do it, he might say "Yknow, Im in a good mood right now. You did what I want you to do, so Ill remove some debt"

but I also think that events like [Loots bosschest -> follower forcegreets] "Hey, there are those cool mittens in this chest. Maybe you want to wear them for.. lets say 2 days! if you do that Ill remove some of your debt *blink" would be kinda cool 

/> Yes -> Cool! // No -> Youre no fun. Debt or mittens! -> New choice

and I rarer cases perhaps even "There was this corset in this chest .. I dont need but I think itll suit you perfectly *locks it on"

I think the follower could totally compel you to take on debt, or worse, if you failed on something you agreed to do.  However, I think you'd need to have agreed to it in the first place - unless the player is enslaved/heavily in debt, all the other interactions of the mod are something the player agreed to for a temporary benefit (often with longer term repercussions) or a punishment for breaking the rules.  So if you said you'd go to the location in exchange for something 2 days ago (debt relief, device removal, sweetroll ect), then for sure it would make sense for your follower to punish you for breaking your promise.

 

The "found loot" idea is cool IMO - not like you don't find a million devices in chests with Cursed Loot installed.  I don't think the follower should be able to demand the second part *unless* your willpower was tanked at the time - again, wasn't part of the deal and you didn't agree to it.  At low willpower however, I think a lot of bets should be off - I do feel willpower needs some teeth again after the change to make it restore to full on sleep, and the follower taking random advantage of you because they notice you are mentally fragile would be a good way to do that.

 

That idea does kinda go into territory that Cursed Loot is already occupying, but IMO it isn't a bad thing for mods to offer similar functionality.  Players could use one or both assuming the option was able to be turned off.

 

[Lupine00]

8 hours ago, Zagzaguel said:

I think that this sort of QoL justifies the missing hand slot. . . or at least I dont know what importance the hand slot would have that makes the game significantly harder

If you're a mage, it might not mean much at all, but If you use heavy armor, losing the hand slot is potentially significant, especially if you're using an impromptu armor set made of poor quality parts you just looted because the follower took your real armor and sold it ages ago.

[Lupine00]

8 hours ago, Zagzaguel said:

If he rewards you for anything you do the way he wants to it kind of kills the "devious" character, no or perhaps even negative "rewards" should be considered too - altough nowhere near as harsh as when youre not doing what your follower wants you to do

 

That also depends on how big the event is of course, but youre not rewarding your follower for following you around like a pet either, so why should he always do it? (That sounds off as you pay them.. but I hope you get the point)

 

I don't really understand the nuances of how what @Zagzaguel wants and @HexBolt8 wants are any different.

 

Assuming that ultimately - if there was a feature - Lozeak would design the details of it anyway, it's probably not worth quibbling over the minutia of exactly how you would be rewarded or punished.  Even less so, for a feature that probably won't happen any time soon, or ever  

 

But, I think we're all close to this position:

 

1) The behaviour should differ for enslaved vs free

 

2) If you're free, their should be a "reward" for going to a place - even if the reward is really only removal of a penalty applied to get you to go.

    But, some amount of cash credit is the simplest and most logical reward - as that's useful in all circumstances and does not require you to have existing deals.

 

3) If you're enslaved, there should be a penalty for not going, and not getting the penalty is the "reward" for going

 

4) No matter your status, you shouldn't be obligated to clear the target location, but there could be a bonus reward for doing so. (Again, probably cash credit).

 

 

From a design perspective, getting credit rewards is not OP, or spoiling the debt mechanics.

 

First off, you would (probably) get to set the size of the rewards in the MCM, so the impact is up to you.

 

If you're enslaved, you really want to get cash, and it can be hard to get. Adding a way to do it is a big help. You probably also have a lot of deals on top of enslavement, so it's not like there isn't a huge hole to climb out of.

 

If you're free, you may have debt pressure, or you may not.

If not, you don't have to bother doing the task - great, choice - and if you have debt pressure, then the task is doing its job - making you feel that the follower is taking over your choices - that's the point! You're trading one kind of "fun" for another kind.

 

 

5 hours ago, Zagzaguel said:

and perhaps there could be other event that chain up on this, so that you may lower your debt by agreeing on these mittens but your follower will abuse the fact that youre wearing those mittens to make you regret agreeing and in worse cases you end up with even more debt than when you agreed

This sounds exactly like existing deal mechanics. Probably what makes more sense here, in terms of simplicity, is a deal with the magic mittens at stage 3.

That would steal some of enslavement's thunder though, and is probably why there isn't one already.

 

5 hours ago, Zagzaguel said:

The issue here is with too many things that reduce debt you end up in some sort of "power creep" where the kinda becomes unessecary as you end up reducing more debt than you gain.

This is simply the old debt-scaling problem rewritten. We already have this issue, the answer is tweak your costs. The downsides are well discussed.

 

5 hours ago, Zagzaguel said:

But this goal should be to maintain a low debt and the mod should have more things that make it challenging to keep debt low. Making the follower feel more real by actively trying to trick you to increase your debt and "make you his own"

I love the idea that the follower suggests tasks or expeditions that are intended to result in more debt for you. But I don't think we have any fresh ideas on this yet. The radiant trips feature as discussed isn't really the answer.

 

How can we have a "trick quest" that is designed to entrap the player into debt? (Not just the follower doing it, but other NPCs).

 

Examples - most of these scams trade on the PC's idiotic do-gooder interfering tendencies.

The player is used to taking on this kind of quest with the assumption that there is a benefit. In this case, there's no benefit at all, just cost.

 

1) NPCs that simply ask the PC for money - like Shadr - why should we help that idiot? Hand over 1000, get nothing.

2) "Can you collect my shipment?" PC has to hand over 1000 gold to get the shipment released. The NPC simply takes the shipment with a promise to pay them back. Never does. (See many vanilla quests that look like this, and only AFTER you hand over the item do you get any reward).

3) "I'll pay you 2000 gold if you fetch X for me." You fetch X, but you're robbed while sleeping at an inn. Planned all along. When you talk to the NPC, they demand you pay THEM for losing their item. If you don't pay you get a bounty.

4) Follower sob story. "Oh no, my sister was kidnapped by bandits. I need 5000 to pay her ransom or she'll be turned into a sex slave and sold." PC hands follower 5000 and goes to collect the "sister". The sister then spins a sob story about losing all her merchandise and how she's now destitute and owes her sibling 5000 gold too. PC can give her 5000 gold as well.

 

The weakness is, why would the PC be so dumb? Presumably you could refuse to do any of these things.

However, the PC does this kind of thing in vanilla quests all the time.

 

 

A follower-based trap would be something with a dungeon, with more incentive.

You arrive at a dungeon location by chance (this generates a vanilla event we can trigger from).

Follower says "I've always wanted to loot this place. I'll give you <amount> credit if we can get the treasure." (boss chest)

 

The boss chest at the end has a DCL style trap that triggers a "full set".

The follower gives you the credit, but you spend five times as much just removing the worst items, and some still remain.

[Lupine00]

A new kind of deal, with gambling mixed in: follower bets.

 

If you have too many deals or too much debt already, this option won't come up. It's only for PCs with low to moderate debt and low deals.

 

When you enter a new dungeon...

Follower: "You're so strong. I bet you can do it <insert handicap>. I'll let you off <amount> debt if you can. If you fail, you have to stay <handicap> for five more days."

OR

Follower: "You're so strong. I'll bet you <amount> gold that you can do it <insert handicap>."

 

Where amount and handicap are selected from rows in a table of handicap vs amount.

 

Where handicap is things like:

• naked
• wearing a blindfold
• wearing a corset with arm and leg cuffs
• wearing a belt with highly active dual plugs
• without casting any spells
• wearing this collar that drains your magicka
• wearing this collar that drains your stamina
• wearing this hood (that has a gag, but isn't a blindfold)
• wearing this hood (that is a gag and a blindfold)
• without drinking any potions
• wearing slave boots and a collar
• using this dagger as your only weapon
• wearing this sexy dress
• after drinking this weird potion (uh oh)
• without using any magic items
• in this lovely pony costume (gag, blinkers, tail, harness, boots, no mittens though)

 

Selection could be random, but probably isn't entirely random, should be weighted towards whatever is harder.

 

e.g. if player has no potions, the potion challenge isn't considered.

e.g. if player is already in corset and cuffs deals, that challenge isn't considered

e.g. if player has high heavy armor skill, naked is highly likely

e.g. if player has high destruction skill, no spells is highly likely

 

It's important that the reward should match the risk somewhat, so it should be tempting.

 

If you leave the dungeon before looting the boss chest, you lose.

 

If you lose and later breach the five-day condition, you get the usual punishment fine.

 

In the case where it's simply a cash bet, you gain an amount of debt, and that's it.

 

 

For extra fun, if you lose, bet double or nothing...

"Can I try again? Double or nothing?"

"Of course. I love watching you struggle..."

"If you can get the treasure while also <extra handicap>, I'll let you off with just a single deal. But if you fail again you have to stay <handicap> and <extra handicap> for seven days.

 

So even if you win, you must take a deal.

 

 

Failed again, play for even higher stakes?

"Can I try again? Double or nothing?"

"Oh pet, you're terrible at this. But if you're determined, I'll give you one more chance. If you can get the treasure with <another handicap>, I'll let you off with just thee deals, but if you fail, you become my slave with an additional debt of <MCM enslavement debt>."

"If you get free after that, you have to take six deals."

 

Note that debt is additional. If you already owe 2000, and enslavement is at 4000, you would be enslaved with a total 6000 debt.

Also, if you pay off the debt, you'll gain six fresh deals. (Not old deals that have run down their timers).

In this case, if you win, you still have to take three more deals.

 

 

The amounts for some hard challenges could be very tempting, especially for the pure cash bet. Player would set a scale for them in MCM, but completing dungeon in a hood might be worth 5000 cash.

 

 

Even if you win, it's not like the follower didn't have their fun, right?

Clearly, "events" would have to be suspended while in the dungeon. But if you leave for whatever reason, events might happen.

 

Now I think about it, this is what SLAV should have been like  

 

[HexBolt8]

4 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

A new kind of deal, with gambling mixed in: follower bets.

I like these ideas.  If the risk and reward are fairly balanced, the offer could be quite tempting.  It can skip the radiant aspect by simply triggering when you enter an uncleared dungeon.  Balancing would be key, and it should factor in the PC's strengths.  A melee warrior will suffer more from nakedness than a mage.  A prohibition on spells would cripple a pure mage.  (And touching on the earlier discussion of mittens, having to wear mittens or boots is generally much worse for a fighter type, who loses the benefit of the perks for Matching Set and Custom Fit on top of losing the armor rating.)   EDIT:  Just let the player toggle off the handicaps that are not wanted. END EDIT

 

The loaded double or nothing offer is an especially nice touch.  

 

The previous discussion about "you'd have to be dumb to take these" quests doesn't sound so appealing.  Granted you have to stretch credulity just to take on a devious follower, but that's the player forcing the PC's decision because we want the devious action.  However, the quests designed to cost the player money are basically just set-ups and look that way too.  I want a reasonable chance to succeed, or to fail because I made poor choices or got very unlucky.  Not that there can't be surprises.  The Captured Dreams delivery quest is one that looked just fine.  You don't discover the ambush until later.  But I thought it was fair because I could fight or flee with a decent chance to succeed. 

[Darkwing241]

2 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

The weakness is, why would the PC be so dumb? Presumably you could refuse to do any of these things.

However, the PC does this kind of thing in vanilla quests all the time.

Eh, Isn't that kind of the role play anyway?  The real me isn't naive about how interest rates work (10%+ daily?!) but my character is.  The real me understands that a small lump some payment deal is not going to fix the problem that I can't keep up with my payments, because it actively makes it harder to earn money (I'm still lobbying for maintaining deals to reduce daily pay, rather than debt).  But I do these things anyway.  Basically every mod on LL is a game you are trying to lose.

[Lupine00]

25 minutes ago, Zagzaguel said:

But I wonder is that even possible? I mean controlling wether or not youre using only a dagger or no spells 

Doesn't control it, just detects it.

Like everything else in DF. You can use a 2H sword, but if you do, you lose the bet.

 

25 minutes ago, Zagzaguel said:

No mana or stamina seems punishing enough to me and some deals like only using a dagger could conflict with specific builds, so you might end up relying on your follower too much which is.. boring

You have to decide whether you'll chance it or not. I guess that is part of the game. If a mage sticks on a set of decent armor and a big 2H, they will soon level a bit of skill sufficient to do most dungeons - unless you have difficulty mods. Can't account for them, that's the player's problem. Don't take the bet if you have badass bandits in there.

 

Clearly, there's no radiant aspect to these at all, they simply trigger in any dungeon where you can find a boss chest.

Might also trigger on some places that you have to "clear", but that's always been a bit unreliable, so it would need to be a whitelist.