Devious Followers (8 June 2019)

[seanthiar]

On 6/16/2019 at 6:01 AM, Lupine00 said:

Regarding Willpower...

 

It's great that wearing devices can sap willpower, however I think not wearing nice clothes or comforting armor could also reduce willpower.

 

I think it would be very effective if being naked either reduces or caps your willpower.

So, for example, if you have willpower X, if you're currently naked, it's treated as X minus 2.

 

e.g. if naked: Effective Willpower = Max(0, Actual Willpower - 2)

 

 

And maybe, wearing good gear could even give a bonus?

 

e.g. if wearing non-devious item over value 1000: Effective Willpower = Min(10, Actual Willpower + 1)

There is a logical problem with Sexlab Aroused - because you can make the char an exhibitionist. Being naked is then nothing negative - It's positive.  It could be dynamic in cowork with "Spank that ass" - when the char does not like spanking the red ass/tits are embarrasing and being naked is then negative even for an exhibitionist, but when the char likes spanking the red color is a badge of honor and got a positive effect. 

Same problem with "captured dreams". You can make the char sub or dom, maso or sad. For a dom or sad  char being naked could be negative if the char is not exhibitionist and for sub/maso it's a part where you can argue because for some in RL it's negative and for some positive.

Another part could be not able to see could lower the effect because you could imagine there is nobody able to see if there is someone naked.

[Reesewow]

48 minutes ago, seanthiar said:

There is a logical problem with Sexlab Aroused - because you can make the char an exhibitionist. Being naked is then nothing negative - It's positive.  It could be dynamic in cowork with "Spank that ass" - when the char does not like spanking the red ass/tits are embarrasing and being naked is then negative even for an exhibitionist, but when the char likes spanking the red color is a badge of honor and got a positive effect. 

I'm not sure being an exhibitionist or a masochist necessarily means being naked or spanked would have the opposite effects regarding Willpower - in my mind arousal and willpower are completely different things.  Why willpower goes down could be slightly different - a non-exhibitionist gets her willpower worn down by humiliation at being exposed, while an exhibitionist gets worn down by all the excitement over time (plus probably sitting at 100 arousal all the time).

 

In my game, being an exhibitionist or a masochist is definitely *not* a good thing for my character because Deviously Cursed Loot is always waiting for my arousal to get out of control. 

[Lupine00]

9 hours ago, seanthiar said:

There is a logical problem with Sexlab Aroused - because you can make the char an exhibitionist. Being naked is then nothing negative - It's positive.  It could be dynamic in cowork with "Spank that ass" - when the char does not like spanking the red ass/tits are embarrasing and being naked is then negative even for an exhibitionist, but when the char likes spanking the red color is a badge of honor and got a positive effect. 

You can let the player set a slider for exhibitionism, or have a tickbox, or look up the value in SexLab. 

 

I think that willpower modifiers should definitely be optional in any case.

 

Doesn't mean I wouldn't like them though.

 

 

A problem with exhibitionism being positive, is that the whore armor deal becomes a positive.

 

Another perspective...

I think that even for an exhibitionist character, it just means they get aroused by it, but it still humiliates them, and enjoying it is an actively submissive action, it's not "empowering", it's about giving up control, and that means less willpower.

[seanthiar]

6 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

....

I think that even for an exhibitionist character, it just means they get aroused by it, but it still humiliates them, and enjoying it is an actively submissive action, it's not "empowering", it's about giving up control, and that means less willpower.

OK i got maybe a problem mixing the whole thing with reality and other mods. In reality being naked for a sub does not mean arousal and ordered to do something is not negative. To be ordered to do something or to be something like naked makes proud because master gives you his trust to do as it is wanted and work in his interest. A submissive is not always sub to everyone - only to their master and to the people master says. Nearly everyone else is confronted with a person with a strong will and wearing a collar, being naked, visibly marked etc. is a badge of honor, something to be proud of and something that assist their will against everyone that is not the master because their master wants it and it means protection,  to be sure nothing bad happens if master did not want it. Even if there are people master gave power to, but that power is never the same as masters and the submissiveness is a lesser degree. 
In skyrim you find this in the "Captured Dreams" mod - when you are a slave to master  it is said to you in the beginning of the slavery that master is the boss and every one in the house living a floor above of you can order you around, but for the rest you are equal or higher because you are masters personal slave. That's for me the same  as in devious followers  - you are a voluntary personal slave and other people does not have any right to you until you give the rights away and it gets unvoluntary up to a sold slave - a spiral downwards where your will will decrease with your rank - from personal slave down to free for all. A personal slave with a nearly intact will to the public down to an abulic public slave like the roman slaves that was feed to the lions.

[Lupine00]

2 hours ago, seanthiar said:

OK i got maybe a problem mixing the whole thing with reality and other mods.

The issue here is not one person's specific interpretation of submissive, which is naturally not going to be shared with everyone.

 

It's about what the willpower stat means, simplistically.

Not in a complicated philosophical way, but in the most basic sense.

 

Low willpower means the follower gets to boss you about and you cannot deny them. That's all.

It's that kind of submission (being controlled) though everyone is entitled to add whatever nuances they want to it, in their heads.

 

It clearly means something different to each of us inside our heads, but in the context of the Skyrim slavery genre - rather than the IRL power-transfer-game community - which are utterly different worlds, there is a history of nakedness or humiliating outfits being part of a master's control, and willpower in DF is (at least) some kind of inverse measure of a master's control, so it's quite reasonable for nakedness or humiliating clothes to impact willpower.

 

The mechanics of the mod are fairly consistent though.

 

 

To argue submission, or nakedness, or exhibitionism benefits willpower is like arguing that devious devices benefit willpower.

In DF, they do not.

In DF, whore armor is not a reward.

In DF nakedness is not a reward, it is something the master imposes to exert control.

 

If you can convince yourself that's OK, then losing some willpower limit if you run around naked is probably something you can also convince yourself makes sense too. If you can perform the first leap of mental gymnastics, then you can probably perform another.

 

 

In DF being stripped naked by your master is not safe submission to your master, it's quite likely to get you raped by a gang, including animals, that will hurt you. Badly.

 

Your DF master is not a caring bondage buddy, taking you on a journey of self-discovery. They are a self-interested, exploitative trickster, intent on personal gain, likely at your expense. If you don't make them the money they want, they will not be happy. They are not much at all like the CD master. There's no upward journey in DF, only a downward one.

 

A CD-styled DF would have some very different dialog, and I'm sure some people would love it too, but that's not what DF is.

 

 

Anyway, I should imagine that this dispute is irrelevant as Lozeak had no intention to add it anyway.

[crudo]

Having a problem with DF.  I was sold to a follower (Vorstag in Markarth) through Simple Slavery.  I was sold as a slave and loaded with deals.  Bought my way out of slavery and started to pay off some of the deals and that's when the problems started.

 

After I paid off one deal the dialogue didn't return.  I could only add a new deal.  So I did.  The new deal was a duplicate deal.  I was then able to buy out of one more deal.  After that I was no longer able to see the dialogue for "ask me about my debt".  I'm still being fined and debt is being added each day but I cannot pay debt, buy out of deals.

 

I'm running the newest DF 2.03a and I have the EFF patch as I use EFF.  About EFF, the follower command wheel is not appearing.

 

If I can't get this to resolve is there a way I can simply abort this follower?  Remember, I cannot see or access any of the DF dialogues at the moment so I only have console commands and the DF MCM.

 

Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks.

[Lupine00]

9 hours ago, crudo said:

After I paid off one deal the dialogue didn't return.  I could only add a new deal.  So I did.  The new deal was a duplicate deal.  I was then able to buy out of one more deal.  After that I was no longer able to see the dialogue for "ask me about my debt".  I'm still being fined and debt is being added each day but I cannot pay debt, buy out of deals.

 

I'm running the newest DF 2.03a and I have the EFF patch as I use EFF.  About EFF, the follower command wheel is not appearing.

DF had one of its fits that it has while enslaved and has crashed your DF.

I believe the cause of this is problems with the cloak used to find clients when you are whored out.

Lozeak may have improved this a bit, but it can still happen.

 

I suspect when the DF instance died, it took your EFF out with it too, as often happens when a stack "really" dumps (some are confused about the different between a stack trace and a genuine stack-dump). A real dump either aborts the entire stack and the whole call sequence on it, killing the instance entirely, or the instance freezes and is suspended, which is worse as it bloats your save (often substantially).

 

Look at your saves. Is there a sudden large jump in size, way in excess of the usual size creep that occurs?

If there is, revert to before that. Really.

 

 

Sometimes you can fix DF by re-adding the follower using the special force add dialog option in the DF debug menu.

 

That's probably not going to help you with EFF. Try shutting down EFF and restarting it.

 

 

To remove a vanilla follower, you need to reset the vanilla follower quest and remove the follower from the current follower faction. That would fix your problems in most cases, but EFF has its own mirror of the follower alias, so you need to deal with that too. If shutdown and restart doesn't fix it, you might get some success with resetting the EFF quest.

 

It's possible that you can't recover from where you are now, and your recourse in that case is return to an old save from before problems started.

[crudo]

2 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

DF had one of its fits that it has while enslaved and has crashed your DF.

I believe the cause of this is problems with the cloak used to find clients when you are whored out.

Lozeak may have improved this a bit, but it can still happen.

 

I suspect when the DF instance died, it took your EFF out with it too, as often happens when a stack "really" dumps (some are confused about the different between a stack trace and a genuine stack-dump). A real dump either aborts the entire stack and the whole call sequence on it, killing the instance entirely, or the instance freezes and is suspended, which is worse as it bloats your save (often substantially).

 

Look at your saves. Is there a sudden large jump in size, way in excess of the usual size creep that occurs?

If there is, revert to before that. Really.

 

 

Sometimes you can fix DF by re-adding the follower using the special force add dialog option in the DF debug menu.

 

That's probably not going to help you with EFF. Try shutting down EFF and restarting it.

 

 

To remove a vanilla follower, you need to reset the vanilla follower quest and remove the follower from the current follower faction. That would fix your problems in most cases, but EFF has its own mirror of the follower alias, so you need to deal with that too. If shutdown and restart doesn't fix it, you might get some success with resetting the EFF quest.

 

It's possible that you can't recover from where you are now, and your recourse in that case is return to an old save from before problems started.

 

Wow and thanks for such a thoughtful reply.  I did try to re-add the follower with the DF debug menu... didn't work.  While I understand generally what you are saying about removing the vanilla follower and resetting I honestly don't know step by step what that entails and even less about the EFF quest.  Fortunately I do have a save at the slave auction right before all this went bad.  I don't think I can save it from where it is currently... too bad but it's good to have the info.  Again, thanks for the help.

[Lupine00]

8 hours ago, crudo said:

I honestly don't know step by step what that entails and even less about the EFF quest. 

The reason I didn't say what quests is you usually have to open the mod in the CK to be sure of what quest(s) you need to reset.

 

The vanilla follower quest is called DialogFollower (000750BA)

The vanilla CurrentFollowerFaction is 0005C84E

 

I don't have EFF in my CK right now, so I can't help you with that.

[Lozeak]

Uploaded FOMOD version w/ German translation (Thx @CGi) 

 

=======

 

Radiant Quest stuff/bets ect. : Not yet maybe in the future. I do like the ideas and all but like I said before I feel it will be a lot of work and an area of modding I haven't touched.

 

Willpower Debuff/Buffs for meeting certain conditions: Sure I'll look into this. As for realism/sexlab aroused It'll have MCM toggles if you don't what it or want to adjust it.

 

The bug for overdebt in endless mode : I'll look into this ASAP, if I can work it out quickly I'll post a fix on Monday.

 

Update: Not done much work on mod cause of some RL stuff but got some time coming up and I do plan on working on the mod so there should be some kind of an update in July!

[user9120975435]

What are the conditions for each of the special events like pony-girl, petsuit, straitjacket and so on? My girl has 9 deals and only encounters the straitjacket when blindfolded, no other event.

 

On 6/20/2019 at 10:22 AM, Lupine00 said:

In DF being stripped naked by your master is not safe submission to your master, it's quite likely to get you raped by a gang, including animals, that will hurt you. Badly.

 

Is that something that is planned cause AFAIK there is no rape functionality in this mod yet, nor defeat sex consequences things.

[crudo]

On 6/21/2019 at 6:48 AM, Lupine00 said:

The reason I didn't say what quests is you usually have to open the mod in the CK to be sure of what quest(s) you need to reset.

 

The vanilla follower quest is called DialogFollower (000750BA)

The vanilla CurrentFollowerFaction is 0005C84E

 

I don't have EFF in my CK right now, so I can't help you with that.

No worries, you've given me the information I just need to research it if I want to correct the issue.  You've been a tremendous help, thanks.

 

For my part I just started over from the Simple Slavery quest and the problem happened again.  So instead, I decided to go through Simple Slavery with a no enslavement result.  Consoled to an inn, found a follower, started a new DF quest and right away made a bunch of deals so my character was enslaved.

 

Worked really well, EFF was working, all the dialogue in DF was working but I ran into one issue and this happened previously with DF/EFF.  When I finally paid back all the debt and was ready to dismiss the follower he wouldn't leave.  The dialogue was all present, the follower said he was going back home but he followed me around.  When I tried to speak with him he had both hire/follow dialogue and about my debt dialogue.  Now this has happened in the past and the only way I could resolve it was to make sure I dismissed the follower using EFF's command wheel and not the vanilla dialogue system.  Only this time that did not work.  I finally decided to just "disable" the follower using a console command.  I know he is gone out of my game now but I just needed to move on.

[Lupine00]

18 minutes ago, crudo said:

Worked really well, EFF was working, all the dialogue in DF was working but I ran into one issue and this happened previously with DF/EFF.  When I finally paid back all the debt and was ready to dismiss the follower he wouldn't leave.  The dialogue was all present, the follower said he was going back home but he followed me around.  When I tried to speak with him he had both hire/follow dialogue and about my debt dialogue.

Normal EFF behaviour  

 

First use DF dialogs to get rid of the follower. They will continue to hang around, and *may* become devious again after a short while.

Before that happens, using the EFF wheel, repair all factions, then reset EFF completely. It should properly get rid of the follower and they will wander off immediately. Works for me reliably. I do not use the EFF patch. Newer DF is supposed to integrate properly with EFF without a patch, but it's not finished yet (I feel).

 

I also find that SS enslavement is not really working. Never had a DF enslavement from SS that didn't bug out somehow.

In fact, not many SS enslavements work well, ever. Regardless of target mod.

Problems I've had have been broken dialogs, conflicting deals that mean you spiral up thousands of debt a minute with no way to fix it, and followers who seem not to recognise worn items and again spin up turbo debt without cease.

 

Usually though, it's the gag followed by cheap whore sequence that explodes slavery in DF.

If you don't have a full set of creature animations, it will definitely die, because the scanner will pick stuff like chickens to rape you (or used to), and then die catastrophically if it can't start sexlab with the chicken, and so on.

 

This would be WAY safer if  you could use it in an inn, but ironically, you couldn't start the event in an inn - inns were not considered "town" - might have been fixed now.

[Reesewow]

6 hours ago, user9120975435 said:

What are the conditions for each of the special events like pony-girl, petsuit, straitjacket and so on? My girl has 9 deals and only encounters the straitjacket when blindfolded, no other event.

 

The OP has a FAQ section under a spoiler tag with the basic triggers.  Note that for events to trigger they usually need specific DD slots available, so you having 9 deals may mean you have too many devious devices on for most of the events to trigger.

Quote

Is that something that is planned cause AFAIK there is no rape functionality in this mod yet, nor defeat sex consequences things.

Up to Lozeak but I seriously doubt it - this mod is set up to work well with other mods that offer those functions like Defeat and Cursed Loot.

[galgat]

  Good to see you are still on this one, it has been one of the funner mods I have played, and I have had loads of enjoyment from thank you so much for the hard work.

[Lupine00]

13 hours ago, user9120975435 said:

Is that something that is planned cause AFAIK there is no rape functionality in this mod yet, nor defeat sex consequences things.

I suspect that there never will be because so many other mods already offer it. DF does not need a proximity rape system.

DF can do something very like rape if you enslaved, but it's prone to crash the mod. It's best if you trigger it rarely, or never.

 

 

DCL is a highly recommended mod for use with DF, and it certainly will rape you under different circumstances, including being naked, if you enable that.

Or you can use SexLab Adventures.

Or Horrible Harrassment Expansion.

Or Deviously Helpless.

Or SLD.

Or ... I've probably only scratched the surface.

 

As there are many parts of the higher-level deals that rely on peril from being naked, you really should play with some mod that supports a chance of rape of naked PCs, otherwise those deals are much less trouble than they are designed to be.

 

Also, if you can't get raped, you probably won't lose much willpower.

 

 

My personal preference is to use DCL + SLAdv + HHE + SLApproach + SLS + SLD + STA (Spank that Ass).

SLAdv handles some situational rape conditions. DCL can randomly demand sex. HHE handles bumping into NPCs, SL Approach makes NPCs constantly try and bully their way into sex, SLS creates additional naked and disarmed situations, SLD handles rapes based on highly detailed bondage criteria (you need the new alpha for that), and STA handles the collapse into masochism that results.

 

I'm using Dragonborn in Distress for combat defeat at the moment. I'd say that's still a mod for "early adopters". If you want reliable Combat Defeat, use Defeat (alone), or DCL.

[Guest]

On the note of EFF, I haven't had any problems with it so far, except that the increased cost for multiple followers doesn't work, because EFF uses its own global PlayerFollowerCountEx rather than PlayerFollowerCount.

 

So I made a small patch that edits the quest _DFlow to use this new global, which seems to work fine. Devious Followers - EFF Patch.esp

[Lozeak]

On 6/22/2019 at 1:43 PM, user9120975435 said:

Is that something that is planned cause AFAIK there is no rape functionality in this mod yet, nor defeat sex consequences things.

 

No need because it exists in DCL and Sexlab adventures which are relatively stable mods.

 

I hope after I get the next version of DF out to release my own kind of defeat mod.

[Lupine00]

14 hours ago, Lozeak said:

I hope after I get the next version of DF out to release my own kind of defeat mod.

With PC enslavement?

[spyke123]

ATF patch is supposed to be AFT patch, right ?

[Lozeak]

On 6/16/2019 at 6:35 PM, Reesewow said:

More of a user question than a bug report - could anyone confirm that over-debt endless mode punishments are functioning in their game? 

 

I'm referring to the feature where if you are over the debt threshold, the follower should approach you some time after the "your follower is angry" message and demand you pay them or take deals/gold mode ect.  I simply can't get this event to trigger in my game, and my debt is currently about double the allowable threshold.  Looking at the various conditions and quest variables in my game and in TES5Edit I don't see anything obvious that would be blocking the trigger, but there are a lot of conditions and it is possible a mod in my game could be causing one or more of the conditions to fail.

 

If it is working for other people I have to assume that I'm failing the conditions somehow, but if it isn't working for others as well I'd rather avoid going down that rabbit hole. 

 

Finally got to testing this and can't reproduce it (yet). 

Check the DF debug menu and see if Event triggers say All good! (let me know if it does) 

If says it's paused then send a resume event and see if it works.

If not check again and see if the pause is from DF (says on event triggers)

If it does make sure your using a latest version there was a deal that spammed pause breaking DF that I only fixed recently.

 

[user9120975435]

I have a slight problem with my follower continuously giving me a deal for nipple and clit piercings even though that deal is already accepted and piercings are equipped.

 

On 6/23/2019 at 8:50 PM, Lozeak said:

No need because it exists in DCL and Sexlab adventures which are relatively stable mods.

 

On 6/23/2019 at 4:39 AM, Lupine00 said:

I suspect that there never will be because so many other mods already offer it. DF does not need a proximity rape system.

DF can do something very like rape if you enslaved, but it's prone to crash the mod. It's best if you trigger it rarely, or never.

 

I know and I use some defeat mods, but the original part was written in such a way that it made me think for a second. xD

 

 

On 6/22/2019 at 9:29 PM, Reesewow said:

The OP has a FAQ section under a spoiler tag with the basic triggers. 

 

Thanks!

[outercourseman565]

I'm trying to get purposefully enslaved by following what's written here (accumulating debts and having too many deals?) but it just won't work. Am I missing something because I'm a dumb-dumb?

[HexBolt8]

6 hours ago, outercourseman565 said:

I'm trying to get purposefully enslaved by following what's written here (accumulating debts and having too many deals?) but it just won't work. Am I missing something because I'm a dumb-dumb?

Your Will should be low (you can try setting the _DWill global manually).  Continuous Mode should be turned off.  However, you'll probably find that enslavement isn't as entertaining as the deals, and the experience is more fun when not enslaved. 

[Lupine00]

19 hours ago, outercourseman565 said:

I'm trying to get purposefully enslaved by following what's written here (accumulating debts and having too many deals?) but it just won't work. Am I missing something because I'm a dumb-dumb?

Won't work? Could you be more specific?

 

Is your debt in excess of the enslavement debt?

Do you have lots of items still that the follower might steal off you in lieu of cash?

Is your follower tired and angry?

 

I'm not sure that high willpower blocks enslavement. I think it's happened for me even with fairly high willpower (8?).

Sometimes the follower will be more interested in stealing items. Though there is some configuration for this, there's also a random factor.

 

Enslavement in DF is perfectly fun. The downside of it is that it often crashes, leaving you with no DF follower dialogs or mechanism to interact with the follower.

It's not quite as fun as it could be, because the follower still takes a very passive role, but once you get used to its foibles, it's playable.

Gold control can make it quite tricky to get out of. Somewhat exploitative techniques can be required in that case.