A little warning to mod creators of non adult mods....

*zippy57* · April 26, 2015

And modders face what exactly? Something they signed up for? Something they chose to do?
Being an asshole is not okay. It is never okay. It doesn't matter what the other person did. Don't like it? Say your piece politely and/or move on.

There are times when you have to be an asshole being nice all the time gets you nowhere I mean just look around.There's a reason Valve and Bethesda feel they can just pull these type of stunts.

The reason that Valve and Bethesda feel they can charge for mods is because they can. People will buy them. It's already happening. Is has nothing to do with people being nice.

When I hear things like because they can or it's the end of free modding to me that sounds like people are enabling such foolishness to become an reality or a situation that's unwinnable. When I hear things like this I think that person doesn't understand the power of the consumer even if the vast majority of people are indeed idiots that doesn't mean you as an individual should just let it happen and even if it does succeed it's still not the end where there's will there's a way.

What I meant by "because they can" was, well, because they can. And that's really all I meant. I don't think that either company believed this was anything but positive for them, and since there wasn't anything preventing them from going through with it, they did. Because they could. People are, after all, notoriously unable to give their opinion about things that they don't know are going to happen. In no way was that intended to imply that consumers were powerless, and I somewhat hesitate to admit the possibility that a no-win scenario can even exist outside the confines of a carefully crafted simulation, and even in one of those it's questionable. I'm sure that a large enough consumer reponse could cause them to backpedal on this. It certainly seems to have been severe enough to catch Valve by surprise, and Valve gets hate from people whenever they do anything so I'm sure they were expecting a negative reaction. I don't know about Bethesda (in fact I would guess Bethesda would want out long before Valve, but they may very well not be able to get out due to whatever agreement they signed) but I figure from Valve's perspective there was no downside, so why wouldn't they do it? They may be reevaluating that now or they may not. There's no real way to tell. I certainly think they should, though perhaps not for the reasons others do. But in any event, being a dick to the modders isn't going to affect Valve or Bethesda at all. People need to direct their ire at those responsible for the system, not those utilizing it. Yelling and screaming gets you noticed, and it gets you attention, but it doesn't get you any respect. A well-worded, polite, thoroughly thought out expression of your opinion is infinitely more helpful to your cause than shouting f*cktard in a crowded theater, regardless of which side you're on.

If money is involved, Bethsoft can exercise their legal rights as license owner of both the game and the toolkit to take down any mod that uses their assets or is made with their toolkit unless it's on the workshop. They can pull the plug on anything.

False. The CK's EULA specifically gives you the right to distribute a mod however you want as long as it is "without charge" and done without breaking the law. Only distributing for sale requires Bethesda's permission. While Bethesda does gain the rights to your mod, they share them with you. They don't become the sole owner and they can't force you to do a thing.

A great many mods are a collaboration effort. Who's going to get paid? If asset licenses start getting revoked because the other modders are dissatisfied with their cut or just don't want a part in this, many mods will fall apart.

So what? If it falls apart because they can't agree on price then that's their problem. Considering the attitude most people seem to have towards modders who even so much as consider putting their mods up for sale, I would think nothing of value would be lost.

On that, based on Chesko's example, once a mod goes in Valve as a paid mod, it stays in Valve.

Chesko signed a contract without reading it. That's no one's fault but his. Everyone else can avoid that fate by not putting their mods up for sale in the first place.

If SkyUI decides to drop the free version one day and stick to paid only, any mod with MCM will get screwed. There will be mods made with the newer versions, probably also behind a paywall, and mods that will be getting outdated.

As of the last report, any changes to SkyUI's MCM menu were going to be rolled back into the free version specifically to prevent this from being an issue.

DLC game fragmentation was bad enough, if a mod micro-transaction becomes the norm and gets implemented into other games, take a wild guess at what's going to happen. Gabe's admitted thatn even WITH the shistorm, the skyrim workshop yielded 10k, which of course he dismissed as being way too little to label Valve as greedy (failing to mention how much Valve WILL make when the paid workshop goes Steam-wide).

It will only become the norm if enough people fall for it. And if the majority of the people support it, then guess what? That's what the market wants. Microtransactions are only a thing because people buy them. Despite all the anger they get, they still make more than enough money to stick around. If people would stop paying for them they'd go away.

Valve can't curate the mods (damn, they can't even curate their store). There are already modders hiding their mods because of fear that they'll be stolen and uploaded to the workshop as paid mods. It can easily be a thing on Steam at its current state.

This, the unfair revenue split, and Valve's sudden establishment of a monopoly are the only legitimate arguments against this that I've seen so far.

bob11 · April 26, 2015

If money is involved, Bethsoft can exercise their legal rights as license owner of both the game and the toolkit to take down any mod that uses their assets or is made with their toolkit unless it's on the workshop. They can pull the plug on anything.
False. The CK's EULA specifically gives you the right to distribute a mod however you want as long as it is "without charge" and done without breaking the law. Only distributing for sale requires Bethesda's permission. While Bethesda does gain the rights to your mod, they share them with you. They don't become the sole owner and they can't force you to do a thing.

" You are only permitted to distribute the New Materials, without charge (i.e., on a strictly non-commercial basis) (except as set forth in Section 5 below), to other authorized users who have purchased the Product, solely for use with such users’ own authorized copies of such Product and in accordance with and subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement and all applicable laws. If You distribute or otherwise make available New Materials, You automatically grant to Bethesda Softworks the irrevocable, perpetual, royalty free, sublicensable right and license under all applicable copyrights and intellectual property rights laws to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, perform, display, distribute and otherwise exploit and/or dispose of the New Materials (or any part of the New Materials) in any way Bethesda Softworks, or its respective designee(s), sees fit. You also waive and agree never to assert against Bethesda Softworks or its affiliates, distributors or licensors any moral rights or similar rights, however designated, that You may have in or to any of the New Materials."

There are many ways to read this, most of them aren't really good. What's an "authorized copy" can change in their next game at least to exclude freelance mods. Also, the moment you release the mod, you give Bethsoft and its affiliates the right to do ANYTHING with your material and you can't deny them that right. You can make your mod disappear from the face of the planet and Bethsoft could STILL use it as their own according to this license, if it's made through the toolkit.

*DocClox* · April 26, 2015

As soon as she came out with that op-ed, everyone responded, but then she cockblocked everyone regardless.

She can kiss her rep goodbye.

Mmm... About a thousand views for that piece and only four "likes". Personally, if I was in a hole that deep, I'd be tempted to stop digging...

*zippy57* · April 26, 2015

If money is involved, Bethsoft can exercise their legal rights as license owner of both the game and the toolkit to take down any mod that uses their assets or is made with their toolkit unless it's on the workshop. They can pull the plug on anything.
False. The CK's EULA specifically gives you the right to distribute a mod however you want as long as it is "without charge" and done without breaking the law. Only distributing for sale requires Bethesda's permission. While Bethesda does gain the rights to your mod, they share them with you. They don't become the sole owner and they can't force you to do a thing.

There are many ways to read this, most of them aren't really good. What's an "authorized copy" can change in their next game at least to exclude freelance mods. Also, the moment you release the mod, you give Bethsoft and its affiliates the right to do ANYTHING with your material and you can't deny them that right. You can make your mod disappear from the face of the planet and Bethsoft could STILL use it as their own according to this license, if it's made through the toolkit.

All of that is true, most of that is irrelevant to the current situation, and none of that changes that what you originally said was blatantly false, which was all I was pointing out.

April 26, 2015

Out of all comments I've seen, this one took the cake. I can't say I don't believe it, but wow.

"Money is how the community steers work."

- Gaben 2015

Yami X · April 26, 2015

lol Gabe greed destroys everything.

Prometeus5879 · April 26, 2015

We'll have to see how it turns out and so will those who sell their mods...

Paid-for Skyrim mod removed in a matter of hours

http://www.pcgamer.com/paid-for-skyrim-mod-removed-in-a-matter-of-hours/

Kendo 2 · April 26, 2015

Bethesda's EULA has always been on shakey ground since they are claiming right to instance of creation intellectual property they have no vetted interest in. It would be like Betty Crocker saying they own every recipe that uses their yellow cake mix as a base. A first year law student can fill out a prewritten writ and get it before a judge for a C&D order. Bethesda would have to deal with before it they could move forward with whatever they might have planned, if they decided to screw someone over like that and IF the person suffering bothered to file in the first place. Depending on the merits of the case, the judge won't budge no matter Bethesda thinks and he would want to hear the arguements. Of course Bethesda would just throw money at it to make it go away if the claim had merit and I doubt they would counterfile, though they might if the price tag was too high or if the plaintif wouldn't budge on a brokered deal.

Bethesda isn't bullet proof, they just haven't fucked with the right (or wrong) person yet.

And the verbage of their 'open designee' clause wouldn't hold water either. The contract is formed when you install their software. They can't come in after the fact and change it and if the designees aren't identified by their proper corporate styling prior to the forming they simply do not exist for the purposes of that contract. It would take a court battle to get Bethesda to acknowledge that, but they would have to. I would also challenge their lower case use of 'authorized users' and make them define what that is from a legal standpoint, just for shits and grins.

SexyTop69 · April 26, 2015

As a consumer of mods (and a little dabbling on the side), both free & paid, for a number of different games and genres - lets not panic just yet. Pay per mod first appeared in flight sims, and nothing drastic changed there, apart from quality going up. Pay mods have recently started in the Sim racing genre, with the same doom saying as here, but the only result has been a few better quality mods. There has been no detrimental effects yet, and it's been 2 years now.

So, with this genre lets just wait and see. TES & FO are more mainstream than the flight & racing sim genres, but that doesn't necessarily mean the sky is going to fall down because Valve & Bethesda want to make a little more cash for as little effort as possible. Wait, observe, decide what to do if and when anything changes with the next generation of games.

There really is no point getting all worked up over it, have a beer, go fishing.

And then, there were Sims mods. That went well....

You don't seem to realize that

1) If money is involved, Bethsoft can exercise their legal rights as license owner of both the game and the toolkit to take down any mod that uses their assets or is made with their toolkit unless it's on the workshop. They can pull the plug on anything.

2) A great many mods are a collaboration effort. Who's going to get paid? If asset licenses start getting revoked because the other modders are dissatisfied with their cut or just don't want a part in this, many mods will fall apart. Help and assets were mostly freely given because the mods themselves were freely given.

2b) On that, based on Chesko's example, once a mod goes in Valve as a paid mod, it stays in Valve. And if someone has way too many objections about that, see 1.

3) Some mods are too popular. If SkyUI decides to drop the free version one day and stick to paid only, any mod with MCM will get screwed. There will be mods made with the newer versions, probably also behind a paywall, and mods that will be getting outdated.

4) Valve can't curate the mods (damn, they can't even curate their store). There are already modders hiding their mods because of fear that they'll be stolen and uploaded to the workshop as paid mods. It can easily be a thing on Steam at its current state.

5) DLC game fragmentation was bad enough, if a mod micro-transaction becomes the norm and gets implemented into other games, take a wild guess at what's going to happen. Gabe's admitted thatn even WITH the shistorm, the skyrim workshop yielded 10k, which of course he dismissed as being way too little to label Valve as greedy (failing to mention how much Valve WILL make when the paid workshop goes Steam-wide).

Not sure why people fail to see the big picture. You need to stop looking at your finger.

This is what I was trying to say earlier, glad someone sees beyond the effect of the pay wall and how having an pay wall for mods gives alot of control to Steam/Valve/Beth over user created content to become user copyrighted created content and alot of say over the users creation. The " content creators can get paid for their hard work in content " is an excuse and mere illusion that has worked half as well as they don't give an damn about modders incentive or inspiring them to do more, but making more money off of them whether or not Beth or Valve are taking 75% doesn't matter because both of them as an whole is taking 75% and leaving modders with much less anyway. Part of me feels like they are doing this because ESO just went free to play not long ago which means they aren't charging 30 dollars an month anymore which would mean that game is in part a fail, and thus now this situation. While it seems they might succeed in this huge betrayal towards the community that made them, it would seem that this pay wall thing will fail badly eventually and now rightfully so put an company that imo slowly started to show it's true colors towards this community anyway since some saw how much the community sought to correct it's games errors and bugs alot more than the company it self, fall deep in ruin for treating it's consumers like mindless cash cows and bread makers to be taken to the butcher and put in market to be sold out.

*D_ManXX2* · April 26, 2015

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/comments/7673

Yep thats right the guy who created Midas Magic mod added a ad pop up into his older version that asks people to but the mod every time they cast a spell.

just open up the mod, and it is probebly just a script added witch pops up a menu just disable that part and reupload that on steam and make that free free midas mod and see how they react ??

*zippy57* · April 26, 2015

This is what I was trying to say earlier, glad someone sees beyond the effect of the pay wall and how having an pay wall for mods gives alot of control to Steam/Valve/Beth over user created content to become user copyrighted created content and alot of say over the users creation.

Except no, Steam and Bethesda have exactly the same amount of control over what mods are created and how they are created as they did last week: None. They've added a new method of distribution, they aren't forcing people to use it.

just open up the mod, and it is probebly just a script added witch pops up a menu just disable that part and reupload that on steam and make that free free midas mod and see how they react ??

I'd imagine they'd react with a ban.

Kendo 2 · April 26, 2015

Does anyone else see the irony in a modder named Midas asking for money?

*D_ManXX2* · April 26, 2015

Too bad for quarl he died a few years ago. so is no longer amongst us. I have seen this guy mod for oblivion he surely deserved some money for his mods. btw i wonder what would happen to the chinese community now they will all be asking money for there mods now no more free stuff ever.

SexyTop69 · April 26, 2015

On that, based on Chesko's example, once a mod goes in Valve as a paid mod, it stays in Valve.

"Chesko signed a contract without reading it. That's no one's fault but his. Everyone else can avoid that fate by not putting their mods up for sale in the first place."

You are correct in this which is why people have been saying an pay wall is very bad for modding overall and should not exist at all except in donations insupport of the modder to aviod corprate fine line contract agreements that can be missed or misread or interpited in the wrong way that works against the modder in ways they would not expect that would take the control of thier content from them and possibly prevent them from producing pehaps maybe or possibly ( because crazy crap happens ) for example chesko might want to recreate his mod he uploaded to sell on steam else where to have freedom over it, but run the risk of an DMCA takedown just because what he had before was simular in nature, which is why you don't see some old IP's such as Commander Keen around anymore because the oringinal creator no longer has control over it due to the former publisher he worked under does.

Kendo 2 · April 26, 2015

The moral of Chesko's story; If you're gonna be stupid you gotta be tough.

NEVER sign a goddamned E-document for ANYTHING unless you have a lawyer look at it first. Collection agencies, car rentals, any business styled in ALL CAPS. Don't do it.

SexyTop69 · April 26, 2015

This is what I was trying to say earlier, glad someone sees beyond the effect of the pay wall and how having an pay wall for mods gives alot of control to Steam/Valve/Beth over user created content to become user copyrighted created content and alot of say over the users creation.
Except no, Steam and Bethesda have exactly the same amount of control over what mods are created and how they are created as they did last week: None. They've added a new method of distribution, they aren't forcing people to use it.

True for those not using it and false for those who do, but the thing is with law, business and copyright is that it has an strange way of evolving itself into other forms of law onto other things branching out and enforcing itself in ways we wouldn't expect today but would come to face and know tomorrow unfortunately .

Kofina · April 26, 2015

This is what I was trying to say earlier, glad someone sees beyond the effect of the pay wall and how having an pay wall for mods gives alot of control to Steam/Valve/Beth over user created content to become user copyrighted created content and alot of say over the users creation.
Except no, Steam and Bethesda have exactly the same amount of control over what mods are created and how they are created as they did last week: None. They've added a new method of distribution, they aren't forcing people to use it.

True for those not using it and false for those who do, but the thing is with law, business and copyright is that it has an strange way of evolving itself into other forms of law onto other things branching out and enforcing itself in ways we wouldn't expect today but would come to face and know tomorrow unfortunately .

(Offtopic once again)

Sexytooooop, what mods are you using in your avatar?

That character is very pretty

Kendo 2 · April 26, 2015

I don't know if Bethesda can even claim copyright on a mod. Software code is a process and it's pretty damned hard to claim derivative rights on a process that hasn't been invented yet. A patent MIGHT cover that and even if it did that wouldn't cover C++ or Papyrus or whatever language it's written in, since Bethesda doesn't own those either. The only intellectual property they might have a claim to is something that depends on their software to function, but if the code is multiplatform and has a use outside of the context of their bullshit game (such scripts for Blender/Nifscope/etc. written to make their game conform but not exclusive to their game) they would be fucked and laughed out of court.

Saeros · April 26, 2015

my morning thoughts:

what motivates people to pay € 1.39 for an armor http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=429935220

a single armor dude!?

when you can have a lot more and better made for free?

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/searchresults/?src_cat=54

never underestimate the stupidity of the people..

Valve and Bethesda knows this.

brendan62 · April 26, 2015

ny modder that signed up for this pay for mods crap deserves everything he\she gets, both in getting ripped of by steam\valve to the flaming he\she will recieve.

Nobody should support this its the tolling of the death bells for modding , my work is free for people will always be free and if nexus continues to support this by recieving a cut (and at least makes a stand against it) all my nexus stuff will be removed and i will just open my own site and host my stuff there.

I encourage everyone here to also make the same stand if Nexus continues to support this sickening development do the same as i intend to move all your stuff from nexus \ steam and put in on sites like this at least this will slow the funeral down a little.

Dont allow big business to destroy another of our pleasures

April 26, 2015

my morning thoughts:

what motivates people to pay € 1.39 for an armor http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=429935220

a single armor dude!?

when you can have a lot more and better made for free?

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/searchresults/?src_cat=54

never underestimate the stupidity of the people..

Valve and Bethesda knows this.

Hm, let's not forgot it could be people with intent to support the author. That author did make nice equipment.

They might not be aware that the author is on the short end of the stick though.

SexyTop69 · April 26, 2015

I don't know if Bethesda can even claim copyright on a mod. Software code is a process and it's pretty damned hard to claim derivative rights on a process that hasn't been invented yet. A patent MIGHT cover that and even if it did that wouldn't cover C++ or Papyrus or whatever language it's written in, since Bethesda doesn't own those either. The only intellectual property they might have a claim to is something that depends on their software to function, but if the code is multiplatform and has a use outside of the context of their bullshit game (such scripts for Blender/Nifscope/etc. written to make their game conform but not exclusive to their game) they would be fucked and laughed out of court.

I seriously really hope so, logic of late in the world seems to be going extinct or fleeting.

GrimReaper · April 26, 2015

This might get pretty expensive for valve/bethesda. How are they regulating which mods are being sold and which aren't? They hold the rights, they are being made responsible if something illegal gets uploaded. For example, how many modders own a 3DS Max license that allows them to use this program for commercial purposes? I think most of them don't. So if you are going to upload stuff that's being sold and was being made with the student's license for example valve and bethesda are going to pay for that. Especially since they get 75% of the money. Nobody really cares when everything is given away for free, but when money is involved everyone suddenly cares. I guess autodesk's lawyers are going to be busy, heh.

Zor2k13 · April 26, 2015

Gabe's comments earlier on crapitt show what his thinking is, money is information that can be used to crush pundits he implied.

Cold, calculating... I mentioned this earlier calling it the stealth approach. Like I said earlier he could have made a deal with nexus and shared ad money and found a way to get a hold of donation money percentages perhaps by handling the donations themselves and giving a small cut for example 25% to the modders. Valve and nexus could have simply agreed to screw us over together instead of doing it seperately as they previously did. Valve directly and nexus under the guise of free but instead it seems gabe is taking the direct approach leaving nexus behind. Dick0ne must have said thats not enough money for him at some point in a discussion and here we are.

I find myself asking the question why make new mods now? I don't mean just any mods but mods released publicly? I could hole up in a place like this, wait for it to go secret agent and watch valve and bugfesta declare all non valve approved mods considered illegal and pirated content. I could troll a bunch of places like nexus and steam workshop and rage quit modding. I could sign a petition that nobody in any authority would bother with. I could type in this thread till it passes hundreds of pages so what?

I understand zaz's position too since I am by no means rich I also understand the economy sucks and the traditional jobs that people enjoyed having are quickly going away. In the near future the only thing of value seen in people is: a) not yet replaced by robots and b ) some jobs you really can't outsource yet.

The economy of the world is changing and capital is moving around the world going away from traditional places to other places in the world. Things will be very different in 10 to 15 years and a lot of people are gonna be screwed in the western civilizations. Perhaps valve and beth see this as all companies with advisors do and so this is one of their reactions and it is about money as it will always be.

Everyone wants money, and everyone will react in an obvious and understandable fashion to all of this. We the community see this as just the beginning because we know what someone like gabe would do. We can keep complaining about it or we can find a way to deal with it somehow. I don't know how but somehow otherwise what are we modding for? why are we playing their games? what is the point of all this? We might just end up like those asian places that hide their stuff all the time. I dread the thought of doing things like speedbuster does things. At least I won't make a dam blog and tease everyone about it like some cartman's theme park that nobody else but cartman can go into.

SexyTop69 · April 26, 2015

This is what I was trying to say earlier, glad someone sees beyond the effect of the pay wall and how having an pay wall for mods gives alot of control to Steam/Valve/Beth over user created content to become user copyrighted created content and alot of say over the users creation.
Except no, Steam and Bethesda have exactly the same amount of control over what mods are created and how they are created as they did last week: None. They've added a new method of distribution, they aren't forcing people to use it.

True for those not using it and false for those who do, but the thing is with law, business and copyright is that it has an strange way of evolving itself into other forms of law onto other things branching out and enforcing itself in ways we wouldn't expect today but would come to face and know tomorrow unfortunately .

(Offtopic once again)

Sexytooooop, what mods are you using in your avatar?

That character is very pretty

I used one of PsychoMachina's races, it was so long ago, I should post more pictures of the races I use, thanks for the compliment.

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