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A little warning to mod creators of non adult mods....

LordNecris

By LordNecris,
in General Discussion

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Penfold187

Penfold187

Posted
Posted

 

 

I just have never seen the point, in getting so upset as to deny myself something I enjoy.

That's the attitude of a boiling frog.

 

The English have the expression:

 

Cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

 

I was going to use that...

 

As for being a boiling frog. Maybe. 

But I have my way of finding balance. It works for me and keeps me relativistically "sane", although I claim no specialized insight as to such. Life is challenging enough, without adding more irks. 

 

What concerns me about this debate is that so many, choose to make threats rather than channel that passion into reasonable arguments. 

 

Screaming for Gabe's nut's to served up on silver platter, may well be cathartic but will it change the situation? Or does it make gamer's as a whole look like rabid psychotic basket cases?

 

I make no claim that reasoned argument will change Valve's position. But I prefer, it to screaming rabidly.

muuuuhya

muuuuhya

Posted
Posted

the games industry started spoiling years ago. in the 90s you could buy a good game for about 50 DM (im from germany ca. 25€) that took about 20-30 hours to play through, nowadays you pay more than twice the price for a buggy shooter with a linear lame story filled with more annoying quick time events and map/quest restrictions than actual gameplay that take about 6-10 hours till the credits show up.  

 

unskippable cutscenes, the last saves didn't came through caused by "connection to Ufail lost" and it didn't even bother to ask if you want to use the local saves instead.... etc. are just the cherry on the cake

 

btw, the idea to make more money by involving consumer efforts isn't new, and ea was not the 1st one who came up with it. blizzard basically tried the same with the auction house in diablo 3 which they took down later after they realized the incoming sh*tstorm from the gamers (till then the game was on a pay2win basis through the auction house, most of the loot was crap, IF you got lucky and found a usefull item, it wasn't for the class you played, most of THE few items that were usefull went on the auction house for real money, some of the prices there reached insanity. IMO the game should have been blacklisted in states where gambling is illegal)

 

hopefully valve will see the mess they just started, as gopher has already pointed out, steam managed to make it easier to buy and play game than to pirate it, which was imo a step in the right direction,

they build a bridge between devs and the gamers by supporting early acces, steam greenlight, the promotions for indie titles on theiry holiday/weekly/daily sales etc...

Erundil

Erundil

Posted
Posted

Guys, steam just banned the word stEAm xD try to name yourself "fuck stEAm" in steam. It will be censored. But not "fuck", just stEAm is censored :'D

Dafuq did I just read. Is this for real?

 

The most telling aspect of this debacle is the 2 mods, I might have considered purchasing had I the inclination were pulled. I have no objection to the principle of paying for someone's work. What I object to vehemently and therefore means I cannot utilize Steam Workshop, is blatant exploitation. No matter how one breaks it down, the model proffered by Valve/Bethesda is grossly one sided and weighted to unfairly and unreasonably disadvantage the modding community. The TOS put forward in this scheme are just blatantly open to abuse by Valve/Bethesda and I would argue breach many local laws. Because Valve offers it's services in multiple jurisdictions, it potentially is open to challenges in those countries courts.

There are 2 things we can do about it. First - flood Valve and Bethesda (all divisions and offices, not just the ones we think are supposed to handle this) with inquiry letters about paid mods. We want to know every aspect, so every letter could cover whatever its author considers most important.

Secondly we could get together and find, how licensing of paid mods break local laws. I'm sure there are some lawyers here on LL. If we pointed out to the world, how paid mods are against the law, someone could put Beth/Valve to court (not necessarily us, just give someone else the idea and arguments).

zippy57

zippy57

Posted
Posted

 

Guys, steam just banned the word stEAm xD try to name yourself "fuck stEAm" in steam. It will be censored. But not "fuck", just stEAm is censored :'D

Dafuq did I just read. Is this for real?

 

Probably, but probably not for the reason you think it is. I doubt this is a new development. Banned words lists are generally not case-sensitive, so it's more likely that they ban "Steam" in usernames in an attempt to make it difficult for people to pretend to be staff. "Valve" is probably not permitted either. I could be wrong though, I haven't tried it.
bjornk

bjornk

Posted
Posted

Hear ye, good people of Skyrim!  GabeN himself has once again descended from the Heavens to protect the PCMasterRace!

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/33uplp/mods_and_steam/

 

...lulz

You see, he's obviously the kind of a CEO who let this thing happen and then go chat with people on Reddit while sipping his coffee, as if Reddit is the most prominent modding community. He clearly doesn't give a shit.

 

It's a fucking anecdote.

bob11

bob11

Posted
Posted

 

Hear ye, good people of Skyrim!  GabeN himself has once again descended from the Heavens to protect the PCMasterRace!

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/33uplp/mods_and_steam/

 

...lulz

You see, he's obviously the kind of a CEO who let this thing happen and then go chat with people on Reddit while sipping his coffee, as if Reddit is the most prominent modding community. He clearly doesn't give a shit.

 

 

That was pretty obvious, even without actually looking at his answers.

Erundil

Erundil

Posted
Posted

 

Hear ye, good people of Skyrim!  GabeN himself has once again descended from the Heavens to protect the PCMasterRace!

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/33uplp/mods_and_steam/

 

...lulz

 

Wow, that's an interesting turn.

 

 

Have read all that. What Gabe says sounds good at first glance. Too bad the reality is different.

 

Gabe is a smart polititian and will say what you need to hear. He will agree with things to make the community calm down, but in the end I doubt any of our concerns will be adressed in the immediate future. Paid mods have already earned $10000 (as confirmed by Gabe), even with all the outrage.

When he gets ppl to calm down, when the internet will stop raging, regular users will simply accept the fact, that mods have to be paid for.

I guess that's their plan. The system is working. It makes money. $10000 on first day, when the idea is frowned upon. That means around 1 million dollar income per month, probably more in the future.

Now the only problem are the complaints. To fix that, Gabe has spoken. I'm not surprised. Not one bit. This was to be expected. Don't get your hopes up just yet. Actually Gabe haven't even promised to change anything, except for "censorship of comments". We all know it's not true, Steam will keep removing negative comments, just probably in the less strict way.

bob11

bob11

Posted
Posted

 

 

Hear ye, good people of Skyrim!  GabeN himself has once again descended from the Heavens to protect the PCMasterRace!

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/33uplp/mods_and_steam/

 

...lulz

 

Wow, that's an interesting turn.

 

 

Have read all that. What Gabe says sounds good at first glance. Too bad the reality is different.

 

Gabe is a smart polititian and will say what you need to hear. He will agree with things to make the community calm down, but in the end I doubt any of our concerns will be adressed in the immediate future. Paid mods have already earned $10000 (as confirmed by Gabe), even with all the outrage.

When he gets ppl to calm down, when the internet will stop raging, regular users will simply accept the fact, that mods have to be paid for.

I guess that's their plan. The system is working. It makes money. $10000 on first day, when the idea is frowned upon. That means around 1 million dollar income per month, probably more in the future.

Now the only problem are the complaints. To fix that, Gabe has spoken. I'm not surprised. Not one bit. This was to be expected. Don't get your hopes up just yet. Actually Gabe haven't even promised to change anything, except for "censorship of comments". We all know it's not true, Steam will keep removing negative comments, just probably in the less strict way.

 

 

True.  He says 10k is hardly anything for Valve.  But that's 10k WITH the outrage and without it being extended to other games.  He thinks we're idiots apparently.  Well, he's not terribly wrong, I mean, you tell people not to preorder, not to buy Early Access, not to buy crappy DLC, to support DRM-free, they still do whatever.  So yeah, eventually he can only gain.

dechurch

dechurch

Posted
Posted

 

I don't agree with the hate thrown towards the modders especially threats , The whole thing is a lose-lose situation for everyone in the modding community except Bethdesda and Valve

 

Threats, never, but if the hate is based on someone's stance or statement, then it's fair game. Maybe hate is a strong word, but if you say or do something stupid, then it's your own fault.

 

I couldn't agree more with the second sentence.

bjornk

bjornk

Posted
Posted

Well, he's not terribly wrong, I mean, you tell people not to preorder, not to buy Early Access, not to buy crappy DLC, to support DRM-free, they still do whatever.  So yeah, eventually he can only gain.

And then people call us "defeatist". No matter where you live in the world, idiots are always the overwhelming majority, there's no way you can install a functioning brain inside their head.
ZaZ

ZaZ

Posted
Posted

 

 

I don't agree with the hate thrown towards the modders especially threats , The whole thing is a lose-lose situation for everyone in the modding community except Bethdesda and Valve

 

Threats, never, but if the hate is based on someone's stance or statement, then it's fair game. Maybe hate is a strong word, but if you say or do something stupid, then it's your own fault.

 

I couldn't agree more with the second sentence.

 

 

If Major Changes occur , maybe its time to get back to Second Life and make bondage devices :s

Erundil

Erundil

Posted
Posted

 

 

I don't agree with the hate thrown towards the modders especially threats , The whole thing is a lose-lose situation for everyone in the modding community except Bethdesda and Valve

 

Threats, never, but if the hate is based on someone's stance or statement, then it's fair game. Maybe hate is a strong word, but if you say or do something stupid, then it's your own fault.

 

I couldn't agree more with the second sentence.

 

 

The worst threat I've seen so far was "I'm going to pirate all your mods from now on!" but maybe I haven't seen everything.

 

Also I don't believe we shouldn't rage at modders. They very much deserve the heat they're getting and in the long term it will be good for them.

Serving as a lesson to think twice before making a decision, especially when it involves money and/or big corporations.

I mean seriously - this was to be expected. I can understand Bethesda or even Valve miscalculating that, since people who make decisions there usually have no idea how modding works, and how mods are intertwined with one another. But how could a modder fail to see this? Experienced modder with years of practice?

There are no laws to punish for stupidity in general. We may need them in the future, since shit like this is going to repeat itself in a different form sooner or later.

ZaZ

ZaZ

Posted
Posted

 

 

 

I don't agree with the hate thrown towards the modders especially threats , The whole thing is a lose-lose situation for everyone in the modding community except Bethdesda and Valve

 

Threats, never, but if the hate is based on someone's stance or statement, then it's fair game. Maybe hate is a strong word, but if you say or do something stupid, then it's your own fault.

 

I couldn't agree more with the second sentence.

 

 

The worst threat I've seen so far was "I'm going to pirate all your mods from now on!" but maybe I haven't seen everything.

 

Also I don't believe we shouldn't rage at modders. They very much deserve the heat they're getting and in the long term it will be good for them.

Serving as a lesson to think twice before making a decision, especially when it involves money and/or big corporations.

I mean seriously - this was to be expected. I can understand Bethesda or even Valve miscalculating that, since people who make decisions there usually have no idea how modding works, and how mods are intertwined with one another. But how could a modder fail to see this? Experienced modder with years of practice?

There are no laws to punish for stupidity in general. We may need them in the future, since shit like this is going to repeat itself in a different form sooner or later.

 

 

The thing is the modders ended up as cannon fodder in this whole debacle , heat yes it was to be expected ..... I would prefer the peaceful way of not downloading or ignoring paid mods 

bjornk

bjornk

Posted
Posted

Don't get your hopes up. Protests, petitions etc won't work against corporations. The only language they understand is money or legal action.

rylasasin

rylasasin

Posted
Posted
 

 

 

 

 

I don't agree with the hate thrown towards the modders especially threats , The whole thing is a lose-lose situation for everyone in the modding community except Bethdesda and Valve

 

Threats, never, but if the hate is based on someone's stance or statement, then it's fair game. Maybe hate is a strong word, but if you say or do something stupid, then it's your own fault.

 

I couldn't agree more with the second sentence.

 

 

The worst threat I've seen so far was "I'm going to pirate all your mods from now on!" but maybe I haven't seen everything.

 

Also I don't believe we shouldn't rage at modders. They very much deserve the heat they're getting and in the long term it will be good for them.

Serving as a lesson to think twice before making a decision, especially when it involves money and/or big corporations.

I mean seriously - this was to be expected. I can understand Bethesda or even Valve miscalculating that, since people who make decisions there usually have no idea how modding works, and how mods are intertwined with one another. But how could a modder fail to see this? Experienced modder with years of practice?

There are no laws to punish for stupidity in general. We may need them in the future, since shit like this is going to repeat itself in a different form sooner or later.

 

 

The thing is the modders ended up as cannon fodder in this whole debacle , heat yes it was to be expected ..... I would prefer the peaceful way of not downloading or ignoring paid mods 

 

 

And they were rightly so cannon fodder. You have to remember: they were the ones who made a conscious decision to go along with all of this.

 

We need to stop treating them like victims in all of this. You have to remember: they were the ones who agreed to all of this. Maybe they didn't read the find print, maybe they got burned in the end (good.) But they're the ones who made the conscious decision that they felt they needed to "get something" out of modding. They were the ones who made the conscious decision to sell out. They deserve just as much rage if not more than Valve and especially Bethesda.

 

It's pretty much like Adam blaming Eve blaming the Snake after the former bit the Apple.

 

Only difference is that unlike the biblical story, they don't get to hide behind the contradiction of not knowing what good and evil was before eating the apple that gave them the knowledge of good and evil and therefore not knowing that eating of the apple was evil. They don't get plotholes and poor writing to cover them. They knew good and evil right from the outset.

DoctaSax

DoctaSax

Posted
Posted

"Both these problems boil down to building scalable solutions that are robust in the face of exponential growth."

 

This guy speaks my language. :rolleyes:

Jexsam

Jexsam

Posted
Posted

Don't get your hopes up. Protests, petitions etc won't work against corporations. The only language they understand is money or legal action.

Oh I know, I'm just pointing out that we can see plain as day that the number of people who have actively paid for mods is a fraction of those who are against this whole thing.

 

Let's assume of the 75% Valve takes to distribute amongst the relevant parties, that it takes a mere 25%. That means the amount actually spent is more like 40k. If we assume the average spender spent about $2*, that leaves us with 20k people supporting this actively. This number changes dramatically depending on what we assume the average spent between them is. Some idiots may have bought the bundle, other may have just paid the pocket change for Chesko's fishing deal, so nailing down a truly accurate number is difficult.

 

20,000 supporters versus an angry mob of 98,000 and growing... The situation is more complex than that, obviously, but just looking at those numbers, the majority is clear as day.

 

 

*Personally I imagine the average spent is closer to $5 but that's based on nothing and I wanted to use a more... forgiving number for the actual analysis.

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