A little warning to mod creators of non adult mods....

[sora3]

@Chikage,

 

Thank you for that post. I was wondering when this would happen. 

 

@ zippy57, that is a big concern if everything had to go through Bethesda and Valve as I don't really trust Valve with anything other than full retail games and DLC.

[afa]

Control of distribution has been a very hot topic recently.

Old IPs that got held on "just in case"

Who, when, and where, can someone watch a tv show movie/show.

 

If Bethesda and valve lock it down so that people can only get mods through the workshop that means all traffic go through them.

Someone is a suit definitely wants that.

Sure there might still be free mods where they get nothing, but even if a fraction of the traffic is profitable enough it might be worth it.

Stomping out other places that host "free mods" can be seen as eliminating possible competition.

 

Rather it will happen or not, can't say for sure.

 

If it does happen, hopefully there'll be enough free mods around so their traffic bill will make them lose money and toss the whole idea

 

Sorry...I keep editing this, this is an issue that has been in my head for a very long time, and I keep getting more ideas as I go on.

I fully expect the whole monetizing mod to happen, especially with valve's TF2 hats and dota items being "generally" well received by the community and massively profitable. Bethesda and/or valve were definitely eyeing this for a long time.

[sora3]

Control of distribution has been a very hot topic recently.

Old IPs that got held on "just in case"

Who, when, and where, can someone watch a tv show movie/show.

 

If Bethesda and valve lock it down so that people can only get mods through the workshop that means all traffic go through them.

Someone is a suit definitely wants that.

 

Rather it will happen or not, can't say for sure

 

I would say that what you said above could be possible. But given how Bethesda practically shat their goodwill with this move? I somewhat doubt it.

[TheOzoneHole]

I haven't finished reading the thread yet, but I saw this and couldn't resist waiting to post it.

 

 

 

[Jexsam]

Okay, questions.

 

At what point do you cease to be a modder and start to be a developer? What are the differences in the expectations of the two? Does paying for the mod mean the mod author owes it to paying consumers to put work into their mod? Is it possible to be both, and if so, what does that entail?

 

Consider the whittler. He sits and he whittles for a few hours a day, and in a few months has produced a pile of nifty statuettes. He does this because he likes to whittle. Well, there's a flea market in town, and he he figures, hey, I can sell some of these, make a little money, and give the people some of my hard-made work for them to enjoy.

 

In a lot of ways, modders are the whittler. They do this as a hobby, not as an income. It's not inherently wrong to seek a little income, provided the price is deemed fair by the public (nobody will buy the whittler's statuette if he charged $75 for a 3-inch figure of a raccoon). These things took time to make, and if the product is something others will enjoy, paying a little for that enjoyment isn't unreasonable.

 

But, then again, in other ways it's nothing like whittling. You don't have to worry about a wooden statuette being incompatible with a surface to display it on, but you do have to worry about mods not playing right with other mods or not working as intended in and of themselves. Does it become strictly buyer beware at that point, or is it right to expect a certain quality of service when paying for it? Could modders be motivated to work harder to ensure their product isn't crap, since crap isn't as likely to sell?

[zippy57]

If Bethesda and valve

First off, it's not Bethesda and Valve. It's just Bethesda. Bethesda is not required to do anything Valve says. It's their game and therefore their decision. If there's no benefit to Bethesda, it's not going to happen.

 

lock it down so that people can only get mods through the workshop that means all traffic go through them.

Someone is a suit definitely wants that.

 

Sure there might still be free mods where they get nothing, but even if a fraction of the traffic is profitable enough it might be worth it.

Why? Steam doesn't display third-party ads so there's no potential for increased ad revenue with increased traffic, but even if there was it's not Bethesda's site. How does increased traffic to Steam benefit Bethesda in any way?

[Jexsam]

Force people into a single avenue for mods. Bethesda receives a bit of the money generated by all mods bought through this avenue. Bethesda profits directly.

[afa]

 

If Bethesda and valve

First off, it's not Bethesda and Valve. It's just Bethesda. Bethesda is not required to do anything Valve says. It's their game and therefore their decision. If there's no benefit to Bethesda, it's not going to happen.

 

lock it down so that people can only get mods through the workshop that means all traffic go through them.

Someone is a suit definitely wants that.

 

Sure there might still be free mods where they get nothing, but even if a fraction of the traffic is profitable enough it might be worth it.

Why? Steam doesn't display third-party ads so there's no potential for increased ad revenue with increased traffic, but even if there was it's not Bethesda's site. How does increased traffic to Steam benefit Bethesda in any way?

 

Bethesda is not required to do anything valve says, but the opposite is also true. Workshop support steam integration is on valve's part. there's has to be a deal to reach between both for this to work. And as far as I know they both take a cut from the sale currently along with the mod creator.

 

Traffic not in terms of ads (although secondary is possible, more on that later) but rather mods being download from the workshop itself.

If there's nexus and workshop, one offer mods for free the other offer mods with a price tag which one will I go to? Which one they want me to go to? How to make me go to the one they want? ...How about there's only one that I can go to?

 

Even if a scenario exists where both nexus and workshop offer the same mod for free if I were to visit their workshop I am sure I will be treated with a picture of a nice shiny sword with a price tag next to it on the front page...where you know..."just in case this is relevant to your interests..."

 

And let me reiterate again the sheer concept of content and distribution control alone is quite possibly enough. It's just how conservative business decisions are made and how they work. Even if they can't make money from something at the moment it is unlikely that they will give it away because "you never know." It is better to have something sit in a locker to rot than to give it out for free, and if it is something you can have for free (nearly...) it is better to have it just in case.

It is a matter of how far they can push something or how far they can take control of the situation.

[hafertaler]

I'm really impressed. every time I see this shortsighted greed by companies (in this case Zenimax), I feel so smart. Skyrim sold far more than 20 million copies (and a huge chunk of it on the pc because of mods, see the last part of this article http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/02/18/apparently-we-wont-hear-about-fallout-4-for-a-while/, "Skyrim did better than we’ve ever done on PC by a large, large number. And that’s where the mods are. That feeds the game for a long time."). 

And now they want to risk it all in favor of a fast money grab? Because a bit of money now is far better than long time support over the years to come?

 

And there is a HIGH possibility for a loss in overall sales, since not only are a lot of people not so fond of paying for mods, but the attitude that if something doesn't work, you're basically screwed as a paying customer and dependent on the skill and "kindness" of the dlc seller to fix it, is not helping at all to create any form of support for this approach.

 

From the Steam Faq:

Q. What happens if a mod I bought breaks?

A. Sometimes one mod may modify the same files as another mod, or a particular combination of mods may cause unexpected outcomes. If you find that mod has broken or is behaving unexpectedly, it is best to post politely on the Workshop item's page and let the mod author know the details of what you are seeing.

[Rayblue]

Force people into a single avenue for mods. Bethesda receives a bit of the money generated by all mods bought through this avenue. Bethesda profits directly.

 

And now, unmitigated antisemitism.

[zippy57]

Force people into a single avenue for mods. Bethesda receives a bit of the money generated by all mods bought through this avenue. Bethesda profits directly.

Bethesda already receives a bit of the money generated by all mods bought through this avenue. What does this have to do with the hypothetical scenario of limiting free mods as well?

 

Bethesda is not required to do anything valve says, but the opposite is also true. Workshop support steam integration is on valve's part. there's has to be a deal to reach between both for this to work. And as far as I know they both take a cut from the sale currently along with the mod creator.

It's true that Valve doesn't have to do what Bethesda wants, but that's not relevant because if it doesn't benefit Bethesda then they're never going to approach Valve with it in the first place. The current agreement doesn't matter because that agreement would have to change.

 

Traffic not in terms of ads (although secondary is possible, more on that later) but rather mods being download from the workshop itself.

Traffic alone brings no revenue to anyone if there are no ads. Free mods being downloaded from the workshop brings no revenue to anyone if there are no ads.

 

If there's nexus and workshop, one offer mods for free the other offer mods with a price tag which one will I go to? Which one they want me to go to? How to make me go to the one they want? ...How about there's only one that I can go to?

There is certainly no debate that if they are the only source for mods then naturally all traffic will go to them. But this point does not address the benefit of that traffic to Bethesda.

 

And let me reiterate again the sheer concept of content and distribution control alone is quite possibly enough. It's just how conservative business decisions are made and how they work. Even if they can't make money from something at the moment it is unlikely that they will give it away because "you never know." It is better to have something sit in a locker to rot than to give it out for free, and if it is something you can have for free (nearly...) it is better to have it just in case.

If content and distribution control was so important, I would think it would have been that way from the beginning, but even assuming it's a new direction for the company for whatever reason, taking this step would not give them what you say they would take the step to get. Valve controls the upload system, the download system, the workshop interface itself, and takes the majority of the profits. If all Bethesda mods are available only on Steam, then Bethesda has no content and distribution control whatsoever. Valve has that control. So what's the benefit to Bethesda?

 

Even if a scenario exists where both nexus and workshop offer the same mod for free if I were to visit their workshop I am sure I will be treated with a picture of a nice shiny sword with a price tag next to it on the front page...where you know..."just in case this is relevant to your interests..."

And I would have no problem with that.

[Nepro]

This will be a replay of what happened to Sims modding a few years ago.

Modders will start charging for mods and there will be groups of people who will form slush funds to buy those mods.  They will then redistribute them to everyone free of charge, much to the chagrin of the Modding for Money crowd and the entities/people who support them.  I have little sympathy and zero respect for anyone who charges money for a mod.  And if this plays out like I think it will, the modders charging for content will get flustered and end up quitting the scene altogether...and good riddance.

 

I hope this will come true. IMO donating money through paypal or something else is okay with me but not charging.

 

[TheOzoneHole]

 

Force people into a single avenue for mods. Bethesda receives a bit of the money generated by all mods bought through this avenue. Bethesda profits directly.

1 Bethesda already receives a bit of the money generated by all mods bought through this avenue. What does this have to do with the hypothetical scenario of limiting free mods as well?

 

 

If there's nexus and workshop, one offer mods for free the other offer mods with a price tag which one will I go to? Which one they want me to go to? How to make me go to the one they want? ...How about there's only one that I can go to?

2 There is certainly no debate that if they are the only source for mods then naturally all traffic will go to them. But this point does not address the benefit of that traffic to Bethesda.

 

And let me reiterate again the sheer concept of content and distribution control alone is quite possibly enough. It's just how conservative business decisions are made and how they work. Even if they can't make money from something at the moment it is unlikely that they will give it away because "you never know." It is better to have something sit in a locker to rot than to give it out for free, and if it is something you can have for free (nearly...) it is better to have it just in case.

3 If content and distribution control was so important, I would think it would have been that way from the beginning, but even assuming it's a new direction for the company for whatever reason, taking this step would not give them what you say they would take the step to get. Valve controls the upload system, the download system, the workshop interface itself, and takes the majority of the profits. If all Bethesda mods are available only on Steam, then Bethesda has no content and distribution control whatsoever. Valve has that control. So what's the benefit to Bethesda?

 

 

1. Zippy, where is the incentive to a company (which exists to make money) to allow a competing product to exist for free when the have the legal power to prevent it?  Remember, we are still working under the BethSoft TOC & EULA which have always stipulated two things regarding mods: 1) mods cannot be sold. This has now changed. 2) BethSoft owns the rights to all mods made with their tools for their games.  We know that Nexus cannot, and will not, stand up to Beth's lawyers. We have seen it before, and if they demand that Nexus not host mods for future games, Robin will give in simply because he won't have a choice.

The concern is for this is less with Skyrim, a game that will (we believe) soon be replaced with a new game currently in development. That is the game where this becomes a concern. Having been moving between LL, Nexus, BGS, Steam and Youtube since about 7 p.m. USC time (it's now 4:30), the consensus is that A) this is a test, and from Beth, is that they wanted to do this all along but couldn't make it work before.

 

2. Bethesda, like Valve, is a company. Companies exist to make money. If all the modding traffic for Bethesda's games goes to Valve, with whom Bethesda has a profit sharing agreement, then Bethesda will make money off of every paid mod that is downloaded.  The way this system works now is that the modder gets 25% of the profits after that percentage reaches $100 US. That means that the mod has to make at least $400 US before they see any money.  Valve is likely either splitting the remainder with Beth 50/50 or taking the same 30% that they do with their curated workshops for TF2 et. al. and giving Beth the remaining 45%.  Valve and Beth get their money regardless of whether or not the modder actually makes any money off this.

 

3. Companies work under the law and, like government, alter their own requirements as needed. I am sure that they have been working with Valve to set this up for a while and that there are things we do not know about that have changed to allow them to make these changes at this point. From what I saw on the BGS forums, they did want to do this earlier, but could not and they did not say what prevented it.

 

 

As I have said, my concern is not with what this means for Skyrim. I am not even opposed to the modders making money. The catch is that the modders really are not going to make enough with this for it to be any better than a donate button. And, as I said, I am concerned about what this means for modding future BethSoft games. Will they allow free mods? If this system works then they will be able to introduce it on day one and they will be able to place it behind a pay wall.  Remember how the Skyrim CK was delayed nearly three months past the release of Skyrim? WHY? It isn't really anything more than a watered down version of Beth's own tool kit. The CS for Morrowind and Oblivion came out day one; same with GECK for FO3. What changed with FONV? Steam. I now personally believe that the reason for the delay in releasing the CK was that Beth wanted to charge for it but really couldn't find a good way to do it and mods were coming out anyway. Look at where the CK is listed in Steam. Its under Tools, and how many of those tools require a payment or a Steam key to run? I'm not even sure if you can download the CK without having a copy of Skyrim, so it may already be behind that pay wall.

 

Also, I think it is really kind of shit for Valve to have Skyrim on sale for $4.99 and normally priced at $19.99 and then have all these mods costing about $37 unless bought as a bundle which pulls about $9.50 off the price.  You're going to charge me more for the fan made stuff than you are for the game?! Go home Valve, you're drunk.

[aqqh]

 

Secondly you have the potential damage to the modding community. You're not wrong, mind you - the paid mods right now are 95% shit, but big names have already dipped their toes in the water. If it's successful for them, and if the community at large doesn't make sure the discontent is heard and felt, there's nothing stopping others from taking the same dive. We're already seeing mods as paid exclusive. Wet and Cold won't update for free anymore.

 

modding community you say?

 

heres few of my favorite ones since yesterday,

 

************* 54 minutes ago 

FUCK YOU, greedy asshole piece of shit! I hope you lose everyone you care about even a little.

 

************ 1 hour ago 

Get cancer

 

**************1 hour ago 

Fuck you and anyone else supporting this. Fucking scumbags.

 

*********** 1 hour ago 

Make it free, you greedy piece of shit

 

**********1 hour ago 

HOPE YOU GET SMASHED BY A FLYING TRAIN, PIECE OF SHIT 

 

And hundreds more like this. Because Chesko dared to ask for 40 cents for a mod...

 

I was a contributor for that mod.

Was. Because i don't want to have anything in common with that "community" anymore.

 

the idea that the time i could spent with friends or girlfriend i would be spending working on something to please such "community" suddenly started to sound very stupid.

[Uno]

I'm really expecting a gigantic wave of pirated steam-mods if valve really continues with this shit. Now, here are the reason why I dissaproves this system:

 

- Because it's sold as "a way to help our fellow modders community" and it's just a shameless money grab.

- Because it's like cancer, if you don't extirpate it, it spreads...to other games, I say.

- Because modding is a independant effort of -must of the time- a single man army. The companies should be getting a big THANK YOU and the respective credits from the modder, not money for doing literally nothing.

- Because you know (and don't try to justify) that every game DLC is kinda a legal scam this days, you don't want to have to buy every single addition for all your games in a near future.

- Because remember the MMO'S and microtrasactions, you don't want this shit here...that is what's gonna happen.

- Because FUCK YOU VALVE!

 

EDIT: Sorry for the horrible grammar. I'm posting this on every single thread around the internetz, bear with me.

[windpl]

After reading through some clarifications on Reddit. I can't say I'm 100% against this as long as content developers always approach it as an option of support.

 

Chesko has stated that everything he releases on the Workshop will also be available via the Nexus and his own site for free, and hes been honest and open that the "newest" version of his stuff will likely be available on Steam first, but he will only be doing that to give people an option to support his work and if people want it for free they can still get it from the Nexus or his own site not to long after the Steam release.

 

I don't personally have a problem with that, but I can say that any author that exclusively makes their content paid content only will no longer have a place in my load order. I don't care how good the work is.

 

So its all going to be down to how people approach this really. And if the worst case scenario happens....there will always be the next generation of modders coming up that are more than willing to share their creations for free simply to ensure that its their stuff that people use.

 

Problem is, when you decide to sell mods on SW you are handing over any rights that you have as author to Valve. Then when you are putting it on other site for free, valve can sue you for IP theft!

 

BTW Chesko mod that was using FNIS was taken out.

[bjornk]

 

And again Skyrim is just the tip of the iceberg, it is Fallout 4 and the next TES where the more interesting matters will lie. Will there even be non-workshop sanctioned mods?

This keeps being brought up. Considering what we know right now, what has occurred that makes people think mods will be limited to Workshop distribution? What benefit, financial or otherwise, would Bethesda gain from limiting mod distribution to the Workshop?

 

Revenue and content control.

[Guest endgameaddiction]

http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1516811-discussion-for-workshop-paid-mods-thread-3/page-3?do=findComment&comment=23943101

[Nuvenor]

 

 

Not only Revenue control - Damagecontrol aswell. Lol. Those fuckers.

[Ayn Sof]

 

Bethesda already receives a bit of the money generated by all mods bought through this avenue. What does this have to do with the hypothetical scenario of limiting free mods as well?

 

 

One of the other reason i guess, is to curb Piracy.

Beth realizes that the main attraction for their games (TES, Fallout, pc version) is the modding. By limiting the method of mod distribution with steam workshop, they hope to make these pirates uncomfortable enough that they eventually choose to buy the game through steam. I know this method can be bypassed by reupload, but any type of DRM that makes piracy a little bit harder is okay in most of the corporations head nowadays, even if it is steaming bullshit like always online drm for single player game, etc. They think it is a win-win situation for them. It all comes down to money.

 

on topic:

Fuck

 

[Chaos63]

 

One of the other reason i guess, is to curb Piracy.

Beth realizes that the main attraction for their games (TES, Fallout, pc version) is the modding. By limiting the method of mod distribution with steam workshop, they hope to make these pirates uncomfortable enough that they eventually chose to buy the game through steam. I know this method can be bypassed by reupload, but any type of DRM that makes piracy a little bit harder is okay in most of the corporations head nowadays, even if it is steaming bullshit like always online drm for single player game, etc. They think it is a win-win situation for them. It all comes down to money.

 

on topic:

Fuck

 

Well, I sincerely hope they get a massive surge of piracy as a result.

Power to the people and all that.

 

[KinkieGurl]

Caveat: wall of text.

 

Valve/Beth are only doing what every f'ing corportation do: exploit vain and stupid people, both on the input and output side, to get their money. For a 25 percent cut modders are turning themselves into 'IT wetbacks' and funneling money into the pockets of a game company that exploits people's creativity, but gives back very little in return. You want proof? Look at Skyrim. The same f'ing Gamebryo engine that should have been scrapped right after Fallout New Vegas. The same bugfest that Arthmoor and the USKP guys are still fixing. People buy Bethesda's crap because it is pretty much the only moddable RPG that offers a real seamless open world (right, entering a house will give you a loading screen, but other than that, it's a free unobstructed ride from one corner of the map to the other) that can be turned inside out and converted into whatever you want.

 

Monetization:

 

- One of the possible outcomes, as I see it, is that it will increase piracy. You can already subscribe to a pay mod, download it, save it somewhere on your computer, then get your 24-hour refund and upload the crap to a site that does not give a flying fuck about copyright or about mod authors. I'm not saying that you should do that, but I can bet my life on it that somebody will. Also, good luck taking down a Russian or Chinese modding site with copyright infringement notices, what with the animosity between them and the Western countries.

 

- Modders who create quality mods, but still believe in the freedom of modding will be more reluctant to share their stuff and knowledge, knowing that some greedy/delusional wetback modder might simply steal it and put it on Steam for cash.

 

- Abuse of the DMCA notice on Steam: somebody already reported (here or on Nexus, can't be arsed to search the forums this morning, so if it is true or not, I don't care, but the possibility certainly exists) that a fuckface uploaded their mod with minor changes to Steam, and then got the first guy's mod taken down with a DMCA notice, claiming that the original author stole their mod. True or not, my experience is that money usually brings out the worst in people so expect all kinds of dirty tricks.

 

Somebody wrote here that these cash shops are made viable by folks who represent about 10 to 15 percent of the user base, but they fork out more then 75% of the total money spent in the cash shop. Let's do some math: I looked at isoku's W&C, it has a 17 to 1 downloader/endorser ratio, let's say one out of 20 endorsers is willing to fork out money for it, now that it became a pay mod (I'm not sure if 1 out of 20 is an optimistic/pessimistic estimate, but let's do some math). He released his mod like two and a half year ago, that means 66000 endorsement/20 = 3300 paying customer, ~900 days since release, that's 3.66 customer/day = $18.3/day, minus the 75-percent cut of Valve/Beth -> net income: $4.58/day, about $138/month. Now, if you really need that $138 and spend more than 2 hours every day in front of the computer, fixing bugs and crap, then you are doing something wrong. Also, I do believe that the actual number of people who are willing to open their purse and buy a mod for $5 instead of some 'proper game' that is on sale are much lower. A mod is not a consumable product, you cannot sell it again and again to the same folks (unless, of course, if you unsubscribe for any reason, you are forced to buy it again when you want to re-sub). So, in nutshell, I doubt that he will make more than $30 a month from SW sales.

 

Some may argue that if this experiment is successful, more companies may consider releasing moddable games. I'd say, with the "current DLC and endless spinoffs" plague going rampant (for example, Ubisoft is milking the hell out of the AC franchise) it is unlikely. Modding earned money for Bethesda even before this monetization scheme by maintaining the gamers' interest in their moddable titles, and did they return the favor by investing some of the money into real development efforts? No. Same Gamebryo shit. Just check Skyrim's console commands, you can even find VATS commands from FNV.

 

And if you are so cash-strapped that you really need that extra 30 to 150 bucks, then you should forget about modding and get a decent job.

 

Just my two-cent worth.

[windpl]

 

 

One of the other reason i guess, is to curb Piracy.

Beth realizes that the main attraction for their games (TES, Fallout, pc version) is the modding. By limiting the method of mod distribution with steam workshop, they hope to make these pirates uncomfortable enough that they eventually chose to buy the game through steam. I know this method can be bypassed by reupload, but any type of DRM that makes piracy a little bit harder is okay in most of the corporations head nowadays, even if it is steaming bullshit like always online drm for single player game, etc. They think it is a win-win situation for them. It all comes down to money.

 

on topic:

Fuck

 

Well, I sincerely hope they get a massive surge of piracy as a result.

Power to the people and all that.

 

 

 

Few years back, publishers were saying that it is impossible to make profit in Russia due to piracy. Then steam came, and they are making profits there, and price tag is 80% lower than on the west. Add to that, most of games have Russian localization (fully voiced). Ergo west need more pirates so consumer will have a games 80% cheaper?

[Baron Samedi]

So this is what I get to wake up to (and by the pure fact I feel the need to actually post in relation should mean a bit(I never fucking talk))

 

I'm struggling to understand the logic behind this (From a modder perspective. The corporate perspective is easy). The way it used to work is you made a mod, People played/used it and in some cases went "This is quite good, I'd like to give you some money."

Where does locking this stuff behind paywalls get you? Probably a dead mod I suspect.

 

On a side note, If you guys use mods with dependances from the nexus, I'd go check them out to make sure they wont end up being sold.

[bjornk]

I need a catchy slogan for my signature to protest this shit. Any ideas?

 

(Hope you guys won't start charging people for ideas as well!)