Starfield and Creation Engine 2

[0wnyx]

i hope there will be an easy way to allow multiple body slides in one play through, more aliens, more variations... more randomness. the character creator in one of their highlights did not look impressive... u can see right from the bat that the hight of the characters is already set, which probably confirms that they are using 1 body slide per gender, just speculation of course....

[Darkening Demise]

My profile pic explains just how I felt about the latest video. Todd can't sweet little lie me anymore. The gameplay in the background just showed more emptiness and bad movement/shooting. Not promising at all.

[27X]

17 hours ago, davisev5225 said:

 

Mostly incorrect.  The branding remains the same and they make efforts to keep the development toolset similar, but most game engines have gone through several total rewrites over the years.  Unreal Engine is a perfect example of this - every major version (such as the jump from UE4 to UE5) is significantly different from its predecessor.

 

Bethesda is the exception to the rule here.  They keep using the existing codebase and just bolting on more and more code.

 

U5 still uses Quake and U1 code.

[davisev5225]

1 hour ago, 27X said:

 

U5 still uses Quake and U1 code.

 

Hence "mostly incorrect" and commentary about "significantly different" instead of outright abandoning the old code base in its entirety.  I can, however, see how the phrase "total rewrite" might be misunderstood here.

[t.ara]

10 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

I just hope the character editor is robust- like more than one head shape would be nice. Maybe just copy what RM and BS did for Skyrim? Better than the newer editor in FO4 I think since I can make so many unique looking characters in it. Whereas in FO4, I sort of come back to the same look almost every time. Shitload of mods will be ported I'm sure, but I do hope some new stuff comes out.

 

Big question in my mind is whether they'll allow the same freedom to mod everything (nudity, sex animations, sex scripts, etc.) that they have so far. They seem to be leaning more towards a "modest" approach with each new game with regards to what we like to do here on LL.

 

 

About animation integration you´ll quickly become frustrated and slowed down to the reality that the new animation engines will stay untouchable, as long bethesda won´t release a CK with animation-support itself, which is quite a dream in technical aspects itself.

You will be able to change and edit planet´s surfaces, create some nature and quests and maybe you can fight against each others in an online-version-but modding and online will become a next problem if not working only reduced with same content. Means that modding has to be handled directly with only content of bethesda/microsoft.

This all is a sad next shooter with more technical polished content, surly ideal to create sience-fiction-movies..but for a game I am feeling it is not interesting me, quite impressive that bethesda offered so much work into that title.

The biggest problem of the creators of today´s video-games is the quick running forward to more detailed realism and same time forgetting the content inside of their games. The soundtracks are indeed again underlining the cliche of science fiction, known from endless movies of our time, working, but not really surprising, but created without compromises, as usually, for a bethesda game. This will help to make the content work for lot of players. But from the gameplay I see too much same in compare with FO and other sci-fi-stuff.

SCI FI I would create in an absolute DIFFERENT way and that´s where FANTASY is beginning-and here we´re having ONLY the space-ship-the astronaut inside of the classical outfit and a creation-system for space-ships...the gun-wheel and .... some extraterristic new creatures to be killed....it is way too less about ideas for a real SCI FI themes game....it´s a small intro, but it´s not leading a gamer into a real adventure....not in that old odd classical way, i´m sorry!

[dagobaking]

On 3/2/2023 at 7:45 AM, yester64 said:

How many previous modder will make mods for that new game?

 

For Starfield? I intend to. But, need to learn more about any changes they've made to understand what will be possible.

 

On 3/2/2023 at 12:43 PM, KoolHndLuke said:

Well, their marketing dept. isn't doing them any favors as of yet.. due mainly to the head honchos wanting to keep things quiet about details of the game-

 

I think it's more because they are way behind in progress from where many fans of these titles assumed they would be.

 

On 3/10/2023 at 12:48 AM, nugerumon said:

Rewrites are a bad idea.

 

It's a bit different for game engines, as you have a few years time between releases, but you'll still introduce new bugs (or reintroduce old bugs), and likely the new iteration would be less moddable (even though Bethesda knows how important mods are for their games, the don't need modability for development, so it will be the last feature they add).

 

Replacing parts, one by one, is a better strategy. Updating the renderer (as they probably do each release). Swapping the physics system (like is rumored for Starfield).

 

I don't think this is a good absolute rule. It depends on a lot of factors. All of the systems attached to a specific title are always aging and getting replaced by better technology.

 

At some point, using an old code base is just dragging along outdated technology in order to keep costs, team-size and timelines down.

 

In the case of Bethesda, the timelines involved defy all logic. Skyrim took 3 years to develop. It has now been 12 years since that release! In that time they could have built a Skyrim sequal that is double in size, with a from-scratch engine twice. The tools used for asset creation in that game are so old that they aren't even sold by the companies that made them any more.

 

There's just no way that anyone planned for a 12+ year release cycle. That's an entire generation of technology going by. By launch, everything used on day one of development would be outdated.

 

Clearly, that was a broken company. Microsoft essentially didn't buy a functional company. They bought IP. Now, one can only hope that they were able to fix them and start actually working on these games. IMO, they would have been better off just giving the IP to other functional teams or building a new team around them.

[KoolHndLuke]

1 hour ago, dagobaking said:

IMO, they would have been better off just giving the IP to other functional teams or building a new team around them.

Perhaps it's do or die with this I.P. then for the existing teams? Personally I hope it's like you and 27x say, and heads roll- starting with their mouthpiece who's held tenure for far too long. These games have been on life support and need a completely new infusion of talent top to bottom to make them fun and exciting again.

 

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by KoolHndLuke

[dagobaking]

2 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

Perhaps it's do or die with this I.P. then for the existing teams?

 

I think so. Expectations are so high now. It's hard to imagine a team that hasn't really pushed the envelope for over 10 years will be able to meet that. I hope they prove me wrong.

 

The saddest thing, imo, is that this trend of longer and longer release cycles seems to be spreading. Remember how many more big releases there used to be every year? If there is more money in games than ever (and there is) why are there fewer big releases now?

 

I think the accountants and investors got more involved and figured out that they can make more money by milking these IPs over years. More releases is actually more risky for them because one bad release can take a series down (and even a studio with it). But, this kind of thinking has been terrible for gamers. Instead of working hard to earn our attention with innovation and more titles they are just scooping up IP proven to sell and running it through a drip formula.

[belegost]

19 hours ago, dagobaking said:

If there is more money in games than ever (and there is) why are there fewer big releases now?

Because creativity is lacking and money speaks.  The investors won't take any risks so they cling to what's popular at the moment. Whole AAA industry is getting more and more boring and repetitive and has been for years. The focus is on looks, crafting, big maps and maybe story. But somehow "gameplay" in a game is forgotten.

Edited March 12, 2023 by belegost

[lordjaredsin]

So, it is a safe bet that no modder has gotten their hands on Creation Engine 2 to try it out and work up some tenative things for Starfield?

[KoolHndLuke]

15 hours ago, lordjaredsin said:

So, it is a safe bet that no modder has gotten their hands on Creation Engine 2 to try it out and work up some tenative things for Starfield?

They will. Kris Takahashi and team and a few others including the SE (script extender) ppl I'm thinking.

[spoonsinger]

3 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

They will. Kris Takahashi and team and a few others including the SE (script extender) ppl I'm thinking.

 

Why would they? The extender peeps would actually need the running executable rather than the CK. The script extender has always to provide the shipped engines scripting with that extra functionality which makes it sane to develop with. You know iterating items easily in a container, etc. Basically the sort of functions you would of thought Beth would have needed from way back in Morrowind days and still haven't implemented in the main product to this day.  If you look at the list of functions in any of the script extenders they are really what you'd need to make a product easily anyway. Just wonder if the mental gymnastics needed for the developers to use non-extended script functionality is the reason for the buggyness. 

Edited March 14, 2023 by spoonsinger

[27X]

They need both. They need to know how libraries are going to be constructed and then where they can inject from available addresses.

 

CK killed my family in front of me and laughed

 

Yeah and if M$ forces Beth to do away with it, the mods will go with it, period. Look at witcher and halo and look at beth games; not even kind of an equal paradigm, nevermind M$'s version of 'open modding' is "make content we can market in Forge for more money". Bethesda presents 2Fort from XxXultracrazymodder2005XxX is not content, and it sure as hell isn't going to be selling 20 million copies.

[Kif_kroker]

 

 

could it be that each dot/cluster represent a body that is going to roam around in starfield - for example each body is 4 cluster deep and overall 10-15 times wide.. it would be nice, but in the clips shown so far, the npcs dont look that randomized. however it does not look like ur typical bodybuild slider that goes from 1%-100%bulk, building a fat person just to realize that everybdoy else is fat as well would be such a betheasda thing to do... but i believe they found a solution, can a modder already tell how they did it and what it probably means for future mods ?

 

also the landing spot looks limited as every ship shown so far was equal in size, and bethesda made sure their ships dont resemble anything that has wings, it would be interesting if u could build urself a capital ship later on

 

 

[Gray User]

On 3/11/2023 at 2:05 AM, dagobaking said:

 

For Starfield? I intend to. But, need to learn more about any changes they've made to understand what will be possible.

 

 

 

This. A lot will come down to the logistics of making new animations and integrating them into the game. I am pretty optimistic that this will be possible for humans. I have no idea if it will be possible for non-human creatures, especially if they are procedurally generated.  

[Gray User]

On 3/10/2023 at 12:47 PM, KoolHndLuke said:

Big question in my mind is whether they'll allow the same freedom to mod everything (nudity, sex animations, sex scripts, etc.) that they have so far. They seem to be leaning more towards a "modest" approach with each new game with regards to what we like to do here on LL.

 

I think the smartest play BGS/M$ can make there is to release a game that is unimpeachably modest, and then also provide the tools for modders to change that. If there's a PR sh*tstorm over something in the game, it's on them. If it's over some content on an unofficial modding site, they can disavow any knowledge/support for it and keep on selling the game. 

 

Nudity is pretty much a given, assuming even pretty basic modding capability. Ditto scripting (but without a framework like AAF or SL, it gets pretty messy at scale). I think it would be very limiting for 'legit' mods if there is no way to make new animations, so I am tentatively optimistic about that as well. 

[Guest]

On 8/2/2022 at 8:26 PM, HentaiGnome said:

if not then this is a good watch.

I think their eyes are wonky, the right eye is looking a little to far left, at least on the blonde chick.  Makes me uneasy.....

Edited May 18, 2023 by Sir Bron

[coldheartzero]

All I care about

 

is that it runs REASONABLY well right out of the box, but who am I kidding, this is Bethesda, the game will be all but unplayable to everyone but maybe 20% of the people who buy it on launch. Like me and Cyberpunk, so many rightfully freaking out the game was unplayable for them, but I played it just fine with no issues.

 

No woke bullshit, I'm tired of being told I'm evil for being a straight white dude,,, fuck you hypocrites.

 

Don't strip shit out of the game just so you can sell it later as DLC.... Which we know is going to happen.

[Zor2k13]

The changes in redfall from early reveals to what actually released were huge in relation to the woke stuff that might be in starfield. Remember those cgi scenes of all the different characters wandering around? Then the game comes out and there is only comic book style scenes as if they knew that earlier shit came off as woke check boxes stuff. They probably had some focus groups for that shit and found out that most people don't want to see it anymore. Bud light is one thing but when ford trucks stop selling I am inclined to believe that almost everyone is putting their foot down on the woke stuff. 

 

Redfall released as an empty buggy mess and now beth and m$ have egg on their faces so they have to release something that is really good. The vibe I'm getting about starfield after seeing so many videos of it and youtuber shit about it is, kind of boring especially the colors and textures that we have seen so far. Beth has this specialty of making really boring drab textures in their games. 

[remodel]

On 7/28/2022 at 4:10 AM, fishburger67 said:

The report is that havok has been replaced. 

I posted this on another thread here.  

 

According to my digging on development threads The Forge was added to the Creation Kit in 2019. From the forge site "The Forge Cross-Platform Rendering Framework PC Windows, Linux, Ray Tracing, macOS / iOS, Android, XBOX, PS4, PS5, Switch, Quest 2".  The Forge's Vulkan run-time will probably drive the graphics.   Bye Bye HAVOC.  The Forge uses the scripting language LUA, so some are thinking it might replace Papyrus.  I believe that Papyrus will remain the game's scripting language; typed with my fingers crossed.

 

Looks like The Forge Ozz Animation system will drive the animations.  It's also possible they will use an in-house developed system.  Nothing has been revealed about the animation API for Starfield to my knowledge.

 

 

Edit:  Check out this YouTube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M8zfHHcOlw.  Confirms the use of The Forge and Ozz. animations.   Also says new modeling tool is Maya which is not so good news because it's expensive and more difficult to use than Blender, which I find difficult.  However, the animation looks like it's much improved and flexible.  In my experience more flexible means more to learn, but generally better results.

 

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by remodel

[remodel]

On 5/19/2023 at 11:52 AM, coldheartzero said:

Don't strip shit out of the game just so you can sell it later as DLC.... Which we know is going to happen.

Very likely to happen with quests that are not working right by launch time.  I almost appreciate this since I will have less game breakage.  Dislike paying more for it later though.

[31971207]

Should I be psyched that The Forge and Ozz animation are open source? It took a long time for SL to come out for Skyrim and I read it was much harder to make similar tool for FO4 and a big reason was that SKyrim/FO4 was using third party commercial tools that cannot be included in Creation Engine. Will this make LL community job easier?

Edited July 5, 2023 by 31971207

[DocClox]

The Forge and Ozz are open source, so hopefully we won't blocked to using a specific version of 3DS Max or Havok tools we can no longer legally obtain. That would be good.

 

It'd be particularly nice if we can use Blender out of the box.

[Azailahab]

On 8/1/2022 at 9:09 AM, RohZima said:

But it won't make any difference to us because it is just a platform for our mods.

 

Pretty much sums it all up.

 

Bethesda makes moddable games. Modders make those game better. 

[Veniat]

I'm actually hoping they do replace the scripting language with lua.  Unless they totally gimped it and locked it down tight I wouldn't even need anything like xSE to do the mods I have in mind. 

Plus, efficient built-in high-level math, and a tonne of available libraries.