Starfield and Creation Engine 2

[Mr. Otaku]

37 minutes ago, RohZima said:

 

Tara said earlier there are gameplay problems with using a ladder that make it not worth implementing. Imagine arrows or bullets raining down on you when you are stuck on a damn ladder. Now imagine arrows or bullets raining down on you, while you are stuck on a ladder that you accidently activated with a mis-click. That's horrible gameplay and that's not Bethesda gameplay which needs to be free flowing and not "hooking in" to different animations systems, ruining the pace of play.

 

I mean, sure that's one way to think of it but you can get stuck in a lot of other things too. It's not super likely to get stuck on a ladder animation during combat because you're not always fighting next to a ladder, in fact having ladders would allow you and the enemy to utilize a lot of elevated surfaces for attack/ambush that otherwise serve little purpose so from a gameplay perspective it could only be a benefit.

 

And besides, aren't Bethesda games more exploration than combat focused? Their combat isn't exactly free flowing from what i feel, maybe it's because i'm used to the hectic fighting of GTA Online which is much more moment to moment where wrong strategy with gun selection/mechanic calls and terrain change can turn the tide of any fight compared to Skyrim or Fallout 4 which feel much more point-to-point in nature.

 

But even aside all that, is the relatively rare chance of accidental ladder use really such a big reason for not adding something as typical as ladders? There are also games like Ghost Recon where you can use your sidearm while climbing ladders so it's possible to have a workaround for that specific problem.

[Mr. Otaku]

3 minutes ago, 27X said:

Skyrim has sold/transferred/ARR MATEY 33 million copies... 60K people have downloaded a ladder mod. *shrug*

Yeah so that's basically what i was saying, they can't be bothered cause they're being lazy about it. Oh well, it is what it is. I don't play games to climb ladders specifically so fuck it, it's whatever lol.

[South8028]

1 hour ago, RohZima said:

 

Do you know why FO4 has an almost cutesy, feminine - borderline stylized feel to it, relative to the harsh and gritty feel of 3/NV?

 

That, and the settlement system is what spoilt it in my opinion. The settlement system because it created a separate game within the game, leading to dissipation of energy by the playing/modding community. Too much choice is a bad thing...

Disagree. For example, I use fo4 because fo4 has a workshop. If there was no workshop in fo4, I would get bored after the first playthrough. I would leave fo4 forever. In this way, the construction mechanic has attracted people outside of the Fallout and Skyrim communities. The presence of a large number of mechanics in the game is a plus of the game. The more different mechanics, the better.

[RohZima]

13 minutes ago, South8028 said:

Disagree. For example, I use fo4 because fo4 has a workshop. If there was no workshop in fo4, I would get bored after the first playthrough. I would leave fo4 forever. In this way, the construction mechanic has attracted people outside of the Fallout and Skyrim communities. The presence of a large number of mechanics in the game is a plus of the game. The more different mechanics, the better.

 

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying is the problem. I am also playing Fallout because of the settlement system. But imagine if the settlement system didn't exist? Use your imagination. You can't imagine it can you? You just imagine it like it is but missing the settlement system, right? Lol. All of that energy and effort could have gone into building up factions and quests and new worlds and most needed of all interiors throughout the commonwealth. I'm saying the mod scene could have gone in an entirely different direction.

 

The settlement system split the modding scene in two and halved its effective energy output because it presented two different ways to play. It should be either a game about exploring or a game about base building.

[t.ara]

The game mechanics of today´s games are simply very oldschool: developers create their fighting-system attack-animations, the walking, the running, add the necessary controller functions and done. Common stuf as we all know from 1000games. Optional appeared the ladder-climbing and in tomb raiders since years the climbing and hanging at ledges.

Tombraider /eidos made some few steps into that directions, but marginal. Most games even don´t allow to lay on the ground and creep forward-with or without a weapon. For realistic games, the weapon-wheel has to be dropped. One or two weapons and done. Bulleye for watching enemy in the area around has to be dropped-unrealistic. Specially in RDR2 very very bad done (could be used for far away gamers and in nearfield blending off) -too big landscape for only 20-30 gamers...same in gtaonline. Gamefun is not guaranteed by a huge world.

Simple things like shape of body needs an auto-correction for the weapon-system, boobs-in-lute is oldschool!...Endless more problems can only being solved in future by overhauling lot of aspects, starting with the animation-engines and ending with the way of creating of trees and the LOD-system-which is lacking very much.

 

Starfield could concentrate on maybe two or three planets-but those could be really created in detail....1000 planets with a desert and maybe some auto-generated inhabitants...hmm-that ´s the new aspect of this game. Not the fighting system...not the ladder-climbing-not the laying down on a matress on a swimmingpool´s water...instead: players ONLY stand, walk and shoot.

 

[davisev5225]

Why are people so hung up on ladders?  Talk about a nothing feature that doesn't add any emergent gameplay or much in the way of QOL...  ?‍♂️

 

EDIT: I'll expand this a little, since after-thought caused me to realize this might be mis-interpreted.  I'm not hostile towards ladders and their functionality, and I generally think they should have been added a long time ago.  I just don't understand why everyone is arguing in circles about it when, in terms of gameplay, it's so minor as to be inconsequential beyond very small changes in level design.

Edited August 16, 2022 by davisev5225

[Wolfstorm321]

9 hours ago, Mr. Otaku said:

Being lazy is one thing but this is just weird. Hell, they could easily contact a modder who created a ladder mod for their game and say "we're gonna pay you x amount of money in exchange for the rights to fully own and use your codes in our engines" and boom there you go, now they have ladders in the official games.

 

I don't know what they're thinking lol. Even the laziest aren't that lazy so what's going on?

 

 

It is not about being lazy, but about mass psychology. 

Bethesda fanboys are dumb, maybe the dumbest fanboys to ever exist. 

If being a fanboy is already bad, being a Bethesda fanboy is even worse. 

 

So if you turn a Bethesda game a little more intelligent than the usual, you lose sales. 

By contrast, people who play Rockstar games are a little more intelligent. Hence they can add ladders to their games. 

 

But Bethesda fanboys, they actually revere Todd Howard as a god, and will be angry if they see ladders in a Bethesda game. Hence the cabbage memes, the constant repetition of the same content, mod authors wanting to turn Skyrim and Fallout into farmer simulators, and so on. Todd probably wanted ladders himself, but if he do that, his followers will dump him and look for a new god of the dumb, and Bethesda will lose sales. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Wolfstorm321

[South8028]

7 hours ago, RohZima said:

 

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying is the problem. I am also playing Fallout because of the settlement system. But imagine if the settlement system didn't exist? Use your imagination. You can't imagine it can you? You just imagine it like it is but missing the settlement system, right? Lol. All of that energy and effort could have gone into building up factions and quests and new worlds and most needed of all interiors throughout the commonwealth. I'm saying the mod scene could have gone in an entirely different direction.

 

The settlement system split the modding scene in two and halved its effective energy output because it presented two different ways to play. It should be either a game about exploring or a game about base building.

If people want to build, why should they do quests instead? If you deprive them of building mechanics, they will go to another game where you can build. Modding rests on the capabilities of the tools, and the knowledge base. The more powerful the tools and the easier they are to master, the more people are involved in creativity. Also, one person is often forced to master things that are not interesting to him in order to achieve modest results. For example, it's not enough for you to master 3D: modeling, animation, rigging, skinning - you still have to, for some hell, master papyrus. In general, the more a person learns, the more everything that has to be learned appears. A mentally normal person who just wanted to build a house in the game and fuck puppet characters there may lose heart and give everything to hell. )

Edited August 16, 2022 by South8028

[bnub345]

The EVG mod doesn't add an actual ladder system, it just plays a climbing animation when you activate it. Not the same thing. You can only climb all the way up or all the way down in one motion. But enough about ladders. There are a lot more things that game devs want to put in the game than actually make it in, and they have to decide if thing x is worth the time and money over thing y. Nothing shocking there, they just have priorities. 

 

I'm not really buying the "Bethesda fans are morons" argument, especially if you say Rockstar has a smarter fan base. I struggle to think of anything more braindead than GTA online, which is mainly a front for sucking IRL money from people for an in game currency anyway. Rather it's a simple but sad fact that selling a game to as wide an audience as possible gets the most money in sales. So the game ends up being this bland mish mash that tries to appeal to the maximum amount of people. That's how you sell millions and millions of copies. Make a game with interesting and thoughtful mechanics, it only appeals to the people that enjoy that particular niche. Just look at the evolution of game mechanics from Morrowind to Oblivion to Skyrim, dumbed down and simplified each time. Res ipsa loquitur. 

 

So I expect Starfield will be this bland and non-offensive project that is interesting for a few weeks after it releases and then quickly loses appeal. After a decade of other peoples' work I find Skyrim fairly interesting. Hopefully Todd and the team surprise me and make something great from day one, but I'm not holding my breath. 

[Mr. Otaku]

3 hours ago, Wolfstorm321 said:

It is not about being lazy, but about mass psychology. 

Bethesda fanboys are dumb, maybe the dumbest fanboys to ever exist. 

If being a fanboy is already bad, being a Bethesda fanboy is even worse. 

 

So if you turn a Bethesda game a little more intelligent than the usual, you lose sales. 

By contrast, people who play Rockstar games are a little more intelligent. Hence they can add ladders to their games. 

 

But Bethesda fanboys, they actually revere Todd Howard as a god, and will be angry if they see ladders in a Bethesda game. Hence the cabbage memes, the constant repetition of the same content, mod authors wanting to turn Skyrim and Fallout into farmer simulators, and so on. Todd probably wanted ladders himself, but if he do that, his followers will dump him and look for a new god of the dumb, and Bethesda will lose sales. 

 

The fanboys will be angry if they added ladders? Yeah i'm not sure i follow your line of thought here, that sounds way too weird, almost bitter lol. Lots of people already accuse Skyrim and Fallout 4 for being "dumbed down" compared to their previous games so i don't see why adding ladders will make people angry, especially the fanboys who i'm sure want more and more features added to the games.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Mr. Otaku
"Do you know the definition of a typo?" -Crazy Man With A Mohawk

[South8028]

yeah, enough about stairs. Let's talk about mirrors. Does anyone know that there are mirrors in fo4? They do exist (I don't know if they use ray tracing or something), only they're weird as hell. Try setting bsEffectFx's blendMode to "Additive", and checking the "Refraction" checkbox. To prevent the glass from being transparent, place a regular bsLightingFx mesh behind it and drag a chrome texture over it with a gradient and a cubemap. You will see your reflection in this surface... Reflection from the back if you are facing the mirror, and vice versa. ) I wonder who might need such a mirror?

[Gameplayer]

Well how about we bug them about adding chutes?

[dagobaking]

On 8/15/2022 at 5:02 PM, Mr. Otaku said:

I understand why Bethesda wants to keep using the Creation Engine, their games are as modable as they are because of how they built that engine and the modding kits they build around it. And from a business standpoint it makes perfect sense too, why would you give up your own engine that you've spent so much money and time working on to specifically facilitate the kind of game you're building, just because there are more shiny new engines out there? So i understand why the Creation Engine is here to stay.

 

Code-bases have a life-span. At some point, the methods used become dated and the work needed to update everything within the same code-base becomes more work than simply starting from scratch (and maybe importing some old work that is still helpful).

 

Creation Engine is well past expiration. That they haven't invested in truly refreshing their core engine in this much time is, imo, another piece of evidence suggesting that something is broken over there.

 

I'm hopeful that the MS purchase will fix something and they'll make a comeback. But, I think it's going to take some time to get back on track over there.

 

On 8/15/2022 at 5:02 PM, Mr. Otaku said:

What i don't understand is why and how they can't implement basic things like ladders.

 

These are the types of dead ends you end up with in a dated code-base. The existing engine probably has a number of systems that can't accommodate ladders (NPC AI and pathing if I had to guess). So, adding ladders into that system is likely more involved than it seems.

[Mr. Otaku]

4 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

 

Code-bases have a life-span. At some point, the methods used become dated and the work needed to update everything within the same code-base becomes more work than simply starting from scratch (and maybe importing some old work that is still helpful).

 

Creation Engine is well past expiration. That they haven't invested in truly refreshing their core engine in this much time is, imo, another piece of evidence suggesting that something is broken over there.

 

I'm hopeful that the MS purchase will fix something and they'll make a comeback. But, I think it's going to take some time to get back on track over there.

 

 

These are the types of dead ends you end up with in a dated code-base. The existing engine probably has a number of systems that can't accommodate ladders (NPC AI and pathing if I had to guess). So, adding ladders into that system is likely more involved than it seems.

 

Yeah i guess all that makes sense. But when i hear about how RDR2 is based on a massively upgraded version of an engine (RAGE) they used for a table tennis game in 2006 it really makes me wonder if Bethesda just can't be bothered or not capable enough to upgrade their engine the same way. Even though codebases expire, there are still ways around it as Rockstar have shown.

 

I'm also hoping that Microsoft can really push Bethesda into properly modernizing their systems, they were working on Starfield since before the purchase so it makes sense why it still has the typical Creation Engine limitations but hopefully, by the time TES6 production ramps up they'll make some more meaningful changes to the engine. I don't want them sacrificing moddability, but adding some more mechanical depth to their worlds would be nice in an era where engines like UE5 and RAGE exist.

[dagobaking]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Otaku said:

Yeah i guess all that makes sense. But when i hear about how RDR2 is based on a massively upgraded version of an engine (RAGE) they used for a table tennis game in 2006 it really makes me wonder if Bethesda just can't be bothered or not capable enough to upgrade their engine the same way. Even though codebases expire, there are still ways around it as Rockstar have shown.

 

I don't know what the specifics were around Rockstars table-tennis engine. It might have just been one core piece and they built a framework around it.

 

But, it's true that a diligent group of devs can keep a code base going for longer.

 

6 minutes ago, Mr. Otaku said:

I'm also hoping that Microsoft can really push Bethesda into properly modernizing their systems, they were working on Starfield since before the purchase so it makes sense why it still has the typical Creation Engine limitations but hopefully, by the time TES6 production ramps up they'll make some more meaningful changes to the engine. I don't want them sacrificing moddability, but adding some more mechanical depth to their worlds would be nice in an era where engines like UE5 and RAGE exist.

 

That's my guess. I think TES6 will end up being a very updated experience. I'm just not sure how long it's going to take to make from here...

[Wolfstorm321]

9 hours ago, bnub345 said:

I'm not really buying the "Bethesda fans are morons" argument, especially if you say Rockstar has a smarter fan base. I struggle to think of anything more braindead than GTA online, which is mainly a front for sucking IRL money from people for an in game currency anyway. Rather it's a simple but sad fact that selling a game to as wide an audience as possible gets the most money in sales.

 

 

I was talking about single player games, in particular. If we consider online games, then ESO player base is smarter than GTA. But then, ESO does not use the Creation Engine, and is not made by Bethesda, but by ZOS instead. 

About the particular case of Bethesda, they don't update the engine because of the reasons I explained above. Bethesda fanboys wants it to be dated and have less features, else they get angry from having to climb a ladder. Parachutes? Vehicle combat? Don't ever think about it. 

Bethesda fanboys also don't like mods. The rise of the "vanilla++" movement is a attempt to bring mods to this wider audience of dumb fanboys. I'm not against bringing mods to the dumb, but this had the same consequences we saw with the game series before (the dumbing down from Morrowind to Oblivion, and then from Oblivion to Skyrim), because mod authors nowadays think they are developers and want to be stars, when originally mod authors were meant to be niche and passionate. So we had a dumbing down of mod content as well, which just confirms Bethesda fanboys are the dumbest of all. 

[Mr. Otaku]

14 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

I don't know what the specifics were around Rockstars table-tennis engine. It might have just been one core piece and they built a framework around it.

 

But, it's true that a diligent group of devs can keep a code base going for longer.

 

As i understand it, Rockstar originally released a table tennis game in 2006 which was the first game that used their new inhouse RAGE engine and every game they've put out since then has used massively upgraded versions of that same engine. The leap from that table tennis game to a game like RDR2 shows just how much work Rockstar really put into their engine so Bethesda really has little excuse in that department.

 

21 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

That's my guess. I think TES6 will end up being a very updated experience. I'm just not sure how long it's going to take to make from here...

 

From what we know, the game could come out anywhere between 2025 to 2027 if we account for possible delays what not, i'll be in my mid 20's by then which is kinda odd to think about right now. But yeah i sincerely hope that TES6 will be a radical step forward in all the right ways, Elder Scrolls is one of my favorite series and i want it to receive the proper technical treatment by Bethesda, especially since it's their flagship IP.

[RohZima]

10 hours ago, bnub345 said:

The EVG mod doesn't add an actual ladder system, it just plays a climbing animation when you activate it. Not the same thing. You can only climb all the way up or all the way down in one motion. But enough about ladders. There are a lot more things that game devs want to put in the game than actually make it in, and they have to decide if thing x is worth the time and money over thing y. Nothing shocking there, they just have priorities. 

 

I'm not really buying the "Bethesda fans are morons" argument, especially if you say Rockstar has a smarter fan base. I struggle to think of anything more braindead than GTA online, which is mainly a front for sucking IRL money from people for an in game currency anyway. Rather it's a simple but sad fact that selling a game to as wide an audience as possible gets the most money in sales. So the game ends up being this bland mish mash that tries to appeal to the maximum amount of people. That's how you sell millions and millions of copies. Make a game with interesting and thoughtful mechanics, it only appeals to the people that enjoy that particular niche. Just look at the evolution of game mechanics from Morrowind to Oblivion to Skyrim, dumbed down and simplified each time. Res ipsa loquitur. 

 

So I expect Starfield will be this bland and non-offensive project that is interesting for a few weeks after it releases and then quickly loses appeal. After a decade of other peoples' work I find Skyrim fairly interesting. Hopefully Todd and the team surprise me and make something great from day one, but I'm not holding my breath. 

 

I'm pretty sure there was a statement from Todd - might have been in the video posted early in this thread - that explicitly stated the intention to reverse that dumbing trend. It's just an awful effect 'mass' anything, this dilution. I hate it, naturally.

[RohZima]

6 hours ago, South8028 said:

yeah, enough about stairs. Let's talk about mirrors. Does anyone know that there are mirrors in fo4? They do exist (I don't know if they use ray tracing or something), only they're weird as hell. Try setting bsEffectFx's blendMode to "Additive", and checking the "Refraction" checkbox. To prevent the glass from being transparent, place a regular bsLightingFx mesh behind it and drag a chrome texture over it with a gradient and a cubemap. You will see your reflection in this surface... Reflection from the back if you are facing the mirror, and vice versa. ) I wonder who might need such a mirror?

 

I will have to report that comment for being too awesome.

 

Is there a version available on line? Can you send me one? I want to see this. Do you think it's possible to make it work correctly?

[27X]

9 hours ago, South8028 said:

yeah, enough about stairs. Let's talk about mirrors. Does anyone know that there are mirrors in fo4? They do exist (I don't know if they use ray tracing or something), only they're weird as hell. Try setting bsEffectFx's blendMode to "Additive", and checking the "Refraction" checkbox. To prevent the glass from being transparent, place a regular bsLightingFx mesh behind it and drag a chrome texture over it with a gradient and a cubemap. You will see your reflection in this surface... Reflection from the back if you are facing the mirror, and vice versa. ) I wonder who might need such a mirror?

 

That tends to happen when your PBR is fake, consoles ain't made for fancy book learnin until such time as they are. You'll notice the atmospheres in SF have actual real time caustics, and the PBR is probably real this time around.

 

4 hours ago, dagobaking said:

These are the types of dead ends you end up with in a dated code-base. The existing engine probably has a number of systems that can't accommodate ladders (NPC AI and pathing if I had to guess). So, adding ladders into that system is likely more involved than it seems.

 

Nope. Carmack code will still be around another 100 years, as Carmack based path tracing and object tracking algorithms that will be used in both physical and luminal based rendering are simply too efficient to ignore until such time as you have enough horsepower to directly model natural lighting and the eyeball viewing that bespoke lighting 1:1. Bethesda simply doesn't feel the need to update giant chunks of the engine until such time as sales dictate.

 

It took almost twenty years for MW, CoD and AC to fall on their faces enough to warrant changing the formula, and as we can see from the sales of Valhalla, a new coat of paint and nothing else was perfectly fine for the masses to queue right back, all previous missteps forgiven. Minecraft was ported to a new codebase for compilation speed reasons, not user performance, which happened to be a side benefit they could market.

 

U5 still contains netcode and object viewing code derived from 1.  Respawn has a DX12 raytrace friendly version of a codebase valve (and id) wrote thirty years ago.

 

The skills of the programmer and the wants of the consumer determines what's needed/essential or not including refining or changing the engine.

Edited August 17, 2022 by 27X

[Kabal460]

What of Kevin Cloud? He doesn't get any credit?? Oh, the humanity! Now I have an itch to play MOHAA. Thanks. 

[27X]

By Carmack's own words other people were better than him at efficiency or esoterics of presentation and he freely admits to being an absolute ass to Romero (whom deserved it) and Hall (whom did not) and Peterson. (also not) None of that changes he is one of the best systems and generalist coders of all time.

 

Cloud was responsible for turning out art that translated quickly and cleanly and is of course rather iconic, but the reason any of that art ran on x86 without catching it on fire was carmack.

[South8028]

6 hours ago, RohZima said:

 

I will have to report that comment for being too awesome.

 

Is there a version available on line? Can you send me one? I want to see this. Do you think it's possible to make it work correctly?

It can hardly be called a mirror. The only place where I found a use for this effect is active camouflage. If we also add uv animation in the form of flickering pixels to the cells with this material, it looks like an LED matrix broadcasting an image from the back of the object. Invisibility cloak. The object becomes invisible, but looks much cooler than a normal stealth boy.

Edited August 17, 2022 by South8028

[Darkening Demise]

I just hope Starfield will have better modding than Fallout 4. Especially when it comes to installing it and all. Fallout 4 was always a mess, even with modding. Then again TES is more popular than FO. So I have fear of Starfield getting no real love. Maybe as bad as Fallout 3's mod community which is a joke.

[dagobaking]

10 hours ago, 27X said:

Nope. Carmack code will still be around another 100 years, as Carmack based path tracing and object tracking algorithms that will be used in both physical and luminal based rendering are simply too efficient to ignore until such time as you have enough horsepower to directly model natural lighting and the eyeball viewing that bespoke lighting 1:1. Bethesda simply doesn't feel the need to update giant chunks of the engine until such time as sales dictate.

 

I'm trying to follow how this is some kind of contradiction with my comment that was quoted...? ?

 

Carmack algorithms are irrelevant in this context. Yes. There are great ways to do very specific things.

 

I agree that Bethesda's current slump is tied to money. Have written that multiple times in this thread...