Starfield and Creation Engine 2

[Guest]

There should be a unique path system just for climbing. 

In the CK, you can select navmesh for water. They go from red to blue. This means that navmesh will use swimming animations. 

So you could have a third option, to select a navmesh for climbing. They could go from red to grey, for example. This would play climbing animations in all four directions.

But then, rocks are irregular, so the animations would clip a lot. To avoid it, a optimization algorithm could assign the best points for climbing and fix the navmesh accordingly. However, optimization in the CK is very bad, and it was never fixed, so I doubt they could implement a new pathing system in the first place. Also, this implies they already have climbing animations and climbing points for the player character. 

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Wolfstorm321

[mort65]

After playing Fallout 76 and physically cringing because of the amount of wokeness, I lost All hope of Bethesda ever making a good game. Also, you are not allowed to remove the woke stuff by modding the game. The mod will be deleted, and you'll get banned from sites that host mods.

Edited August 14, 2022 by mort65

[t.ara]

46 minutes ago, Wolfstorm321 said:

There should be a unique path system just for climbing. 

In the CK, you can select navmesh for water. They go from red to blue. This means that navmesh will use swimming animations. 

So you could have a third option, to select a navmesh for climbing. They could go from red to grey, for example. This would play climbing animations in all four directions.

But then, rocks are irregular, so the animations would clip a lot. To avoid it, a optimization algorithm could assign the best points for climbing and fix the navmesh accordingly. However, optimization in the CK is very bad, and it was never fixed, so I doubt they could implement a new pathing system in the first place. Also, this implies they already have climbing animations and climbing points for the player character. 

 

This aspects to make the navmesh getting such a function is interesting...for water it would be ideal-mostly...but I personally think that rockstar´s gtav is physically the most interesting game-anyway with a blackboxed animation and physic-engine...but climbing is also there not possible if no "instrument for that is available=ladder...different in tomb-raider, which has endless animations based on climbing with endless functions-that climbing may be relying on a climbing path with combined jumps fromzero....jumping-hanging-jumping-higher, jumping to new stones at same heights..and so on...it´s nearly a skillbound motion...with this all together is a well cam directory very important...very complex....and also eidos have developped that not only in one single game....it became more and more complex and better....

[South8028]

1 hour ago, t.ara said:

That stuff is not logical to become a furniture-in that case you have endless restrictions. And all the NPCs can ´t handle that because there´s no path...is okay for players home...and the scripting is again used to first aid missing functions of the animation behavior...

I have made some stuff like that but it is not interesting for skyrim. Who needs to jump over a box as a furniture?:-))...If a box is laying in the way the character should automatically "see that"...for some fun, yes-but not seriously...

Is the creaation of furnitures in FO4 more difficult?

Well, I just don't know how to make a ladder so that the npc climb it themselves. Furniture, npc, in principle, know how to use. I don't know if it's harder or easier to create furniture in Skyrim. For fo4, I posted link to way, to link havok animations with furniture. I would not say that the method is easy. It's tedious to say the least.I also noticed that the normal stair collisions are special stair collisions. Even if you make a very high-quality collision with a material such as "metal", for example, and the player himself can walk on it, then the npc will not walk on it. Even with navmesh, they do not walk on it. What you need is a collision with the "stairs" material (there are also bgs exporter collisions for different stairs - glass, wood, etc.). Maybe someone will find this information useful. For vertical stairs, there may be a similar moment if it is not furniture, but a path.Some helpers are used for doors and stairs in fo4. Just primitives without material with special names (I don't remember, I'll have to look at the nexus forum). They indicate to the npc that it is a ladder, or a door. Without these helpers, npc's run into obstacles and navmesh won't help them.

Edited August 14, 2022 by South8028

[t.ara]

1 hour ago, South8028 said:

Well, I just don't know how to make a ladder so that the npc climb it themselves. Furniture, npc, in principle, know how to use. I don't know if it's harder or easier to create furniture in Skyrim. For fo4, I posted link to way, to link havok animations with furniture. I would not say that the method is easy. It's tedious to say the least.I also noticed that the normal stair collisions are special stair collisions. Even if you make a very high-quality collision with a material such as "metal", for example, and the player himself can walk on it, then the npc will not walk on it. Even with navmesh, they do not walk on it. What you need is a collision with the "stairs" material (there are also bgs exporter collisions for different stairs - glass, wood, etc.). Maybe someone will find this information useful. For vertical stairs, there may be a similar moment if it is not furniture, but a path.Some helpers are used for doors and stairs in fo4. Just primitives without material with special names (I don't remember, I'll have to look at the nexus forum). They indicate to the npc that it is a ladder, or a door. Without these helpers, npc's run into obstacles and navmesh won't help them.

When I started to mod into SKYRIM, I also thought that stair-collision is something very special...indeed there are some options-but those options are MAGICAL-FREE, means that it all is based on simple ground-foot-behavior. Some stairs have steps which have been flattened by the campher-function to allow a smooth walking up (pic). The next sort of stairs in skyrim is based on an exact step-scale to have a walking and running smoothly. And also there are stairs in SKYRIM, which simply are made by using a simple ramp up-collision. All this I frequently took and there´s in different situations this better and in another situation, the next variation is well. As I made lot of spindle-stairs, I normally take the (tiled) camphered version, as they do not need an own collision-architecture. So there´s no miracle behind all of this. And at least I have ladders with a real collision which you can jump up higher and higher-which means that if the character would be able to put the feet HIGH enough, it would be possible by ONLY using such an animation to climb a ladder like in reality only by the collisions between feet and ladder, more and more higher. But even for activation such an animation, you need a SHIFT-key to leave a standard WALK so to use the feet in the described way for climbing stairs of a ladder. In that case the equilibrium is given without using hands-which doesn ´t matter too much.

:-))) *****SHIFT+FORWARD=CLIMB a LADDER:-))**** and if you suddenly set your foot wrongly-you re falling  down (ragdoll-scenario...)-anyway can ´t you teach this to NPC if that ´s not part of a navigation or a marked object/activator or whatever.

 

p.s. it is with stairs very important and also with ladders, that the cam directory is working smoothly to avoid that, what we all know from oblivion....if I take stairs in OBLIVION, I get headache after some minutes....cam is hard shaking: kla kla kla  kla kla kla......

 

I thought about to put my ladder in zap 9 a little more tiled: for the character it ´s not hard to go simply up there-at a quite moderate angle-typical for ladders...an special animation, started by the ladder itself would be nice-but for a players home it works just right how skyrim is been created...take my ladder and have some fun:-))

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by t.ara

[South8028]

19 minutes ago, t.ara said:

When I started to mod into SKYRIM, I also thought that stair-collision is something very special...indeed there are some options-but those options are MAGICAL-FREE, means that it all is based on simple ground-foot-behavior. Some stairs have steps which have been flattened by the campher-function to allow a smooth walking up (pic). The next sort of stairs in skyrim is based on an exact step-scale to have a walking and running smoothly. And also there are stairs in SKYRIM, which simply are made by using a simple ramp up-collision. All this I frequently took and there´s in different situations this better and in another situation, the next variation is well. As I made lot of spindle-stairs, I normally take the (tiled) camphered version, as they do not need an own collision-architecture. So there´s no miracle behind all of this. And at least I have ladders with a real collision which you can jump up higher and higher-which means that if the character would be able to put the feet HIGH enough, it would be possible by ONLY using such an animation to climb a ladder like in reality only by the collisions between feet and ladder, more and more higher. But even for activation such an animation, you need a SHIFT-key to leave a standard WALK so to use the feet in the described way for climbing stairs of a ladder. In that case the equilibrium is given without using hands-which doesn ´t matter too much.

:-))) *****SHIFT+FORWARD=CLIMB a LADDER:-))**** and if you suddenly set your foot wrongly-you re falling  down (ragdoll-scenario...)-anyway can ´t you teach this to NPC if that ´s not part of a navigation or a marked object/activator or whatever.

 

p.s. it is with stairs very important and also with ladders, that the cam directory is working smoothly to avoid that, what we all know from oblivion....if I take stairs in OBLIVION, I get headache after some minutes....cam is hard shaking: kla kla kla  kla kla kla......

 

Staircase - the furniture suits me. If I see a ready-made, more vanilla version, I will use it. I once only encountered the need for a vertical ladder. Climb to the cabin in a submarine. I can't say for sure about collisions. I need to make a stepless ramp with collision for normal material types and see if the npc can walk on the ramp. Often vanilla stairs have a ramp shaped collision. But they still have a collision for the stairs.

[t.ara]

The problem with the ladder animation is starting at it ´s own: if you create a motion-based animation, you only can choose a same ladder with exactly always the same architecture. And the animation has to become part of the HUMANOID havok-behavior, which is under FNIS or NEMESIS quite nonsence. No sound, no sync, no correct angular behavor of NPCs and some more details. And if the animation is furniture-orientated, you always are restricted to some different height of a ladder...which is mostly nonsence, too. The only way is an animation, which is working equivalent to walking with the feet-sensitive and still existing mechanic. The problems still are the hands, which have to TAKE and TOUCH the wooden poles (which is not working in skyrim). As soon the character is moving up, the hands have automatically to change with each other so to simulate the fix-point to the ladder itself. Such a thing can be made only with the euphoria-engine or with other neuronal-sensitive engines. And apart from that, it simply ONLY a FURNITURE...anyway do I not think, that MOTION-BASED animations are possible to become started in a furniture, technically. SO the idea behind the water=swimming is little more better....but water is everywhere and undefined, but a ladder and it ´s steps and the handrail is not.

[t.ara]

5 minutes ago, South8028 said:

Staircase - the furniture suits me. If I see a ready-made, more vanilla version, I will use it. I once only encountered the need for a vertical ladder. Climb to the cabin in a submarine. I can't say for sure about collisions. I need to make a stepless ramp with collision for normal material types and see if the npc can walk on the ramp. Often vanilla stairs have a ramp shaped collision. But they still have a collision for the stairs.

For what you like to do with a defined distance, you maybe can choose a "furniture"...maybe-but a furniture has maybe also inside of FO4 not the chance to use an animation with different enter-loop-exit point. In the end is your character ejected there, where you have been when you started.

[South8028]

40 minutes ago, t.ara said:

For what you like to do with a defined distance, you maybe can choose a "furniture"...maybe-but a furniture has maybe also inside of FO4 not the chance to use an animation with different enter-loop-exit point. In the end is your character ejected there, where you have been when you started.

No, the character moves to where the root is in the exit animation. Also people use placeatNode to move around. It works without animation too.

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/11382548-script-placeatnode/page-1

[Blobathon84]

On 7/28/2022 at 12:53 AM, 27X said:

based on social buzz, amount of SW and ME discords already recruiting and other scifi modding sites and the fact no one gives five fucks about apocalyptic settings except George Miller.

 

I'm skeptical the setting will appeal that much, because it seems pretty "low" sci fi - IE doesn't seem that advanced. Ships and guns which strongly resemble current real world ones, and no apparent intelligent life other than humans (certainly doesn't seem like you can play as other races, at the very least).

 

I think people generally expect lasers and aliens and such when they think sci fi, I don't know if they'll get many sci fi fans without that stuff.

[RohZima]

1 hour ago, Blobathon84 said:

 

I'm skeptical the setting will appeal that much, because it seems pretty "low" sci fi - IE doesn't seem that advanced. Ships and guns which strongly resemble current real world ones, and no apparent intelligent life other than humans (certainly doesn't seem like you can play as other races, at the very least).

 

I think people generally expect lasers and aliens and such when they think sci fi, I don't know if they'll get many sci fi fans without that stuff.

 

But, all those things you mentioned are the things that modders make.

 

I also don't like that clunky style of the ships I've seen or that hideous robot companion - he'll be getting the Preston treatment.

[27X]

13 hours ago, Blobathon84 said:

 

I'm skeptical the setting will appeal that much, because it seems pretty "low" sci fi - IE doesn't seem that advanced. Ships and guns which strongly resemble current real world ones, and no apparent intelligent life other than humans (certainly doesn't seem like you can play as other races, at the very least).

 

I think people generally expect lasers and aliens and such when they think sci fi, I don't know if they'll get many sci fi fans without that stuff.

 

 

People were hooked into nostalgia based on "remember fo3? remember the american revolution? remember when people were trains?" to the tune of double Skyrim's initial sales. While FO4 isn't ever going to hit Skyrim's lifetime numbers because frankly the main story is absolute garbled and amateur trash and the genre is simply more niche AND the modding environment is the perfect storm of halfway halfass upgraded tools and "my fetish is the greatest of all time and so should you" it still sold a shit ton.

 

This game has higher prenumbers despite brick and mortar absolutely caving in the meantime, the genre is FAR more popular and there is literally no competition other than a remake of dad space and an other totally not remake of dad space.

 

The only difference this time will be even woker launch media because insulation and people being mad about [bethesda things here] way faster on and in social media owing to after 76 the new car smell at bethesda finally wore off, and it will still sell with hundreds of millions of marketing dollars and fanboys behind it, and even cutting Sony out of the picture is unlikely to dent sales at all.

Edited August 15, 2022 by 27X

[davisev5225]

45 minutes ago, 27X said:

 

 

People were hooked into nostalgia based on "remember fo3? remember the american revolution? remember when people were trains?" to the tune of double Skyrim's initial sales. While FO4 isn't ever going to hit Skyrim's lifetime numbers because frankly the main story is absolute garbled and amateur trash and the genre is simply more niche AND the modding environment is the perfect storm of halfway halfass upgraded tools and "my fetish is the greatest of all time and so should you" it still sold a shit ton.

 

This game has higher prenumbers despite brick and mortar absolutely caving in the meantime, the genre is FAR more popular and there is literally no competition other than a remake of dad space and an other totally not remake of dad space.

 

The only difference this time will be even woker launch media because insulation and people being mad about [bethesda things here] way faster on and in social media owing to after 76 the new car smell at bethesda finally wore off, and it will still sell with hundreds of millions of marketing dollars and fanboys behind it, and even cutting Sony out of the picture is unlikely to dent sales at all.

 

Adding to this, one of the best-selling and most beloved "stand-alone" sci-fi franchises barely featured any aliens at all, didn't have lasers, everything was "low tech", etc.  That was the Alien franchise.  It was humanity alone in space, using barely-future tech, bumblefucking into an unstoppable alien menace.  And people loved it.

 

I'll take any sci-fi I can get, as long as it isn't fantasy dressed up as sci-fi, and especially as long as it isn't the cancer that is anime.

[Mr. Otaku]

I understand why Bethesda wants to keep using the Creation Engine, their games are as modable as they are because of how they built that engine and the modding kits they build around it. And from a business standpoint it makes perfect sense too, why would you give up your own engine that you've spent so much money and time working on to specifically facilitate the kind of game you're building, just because there are more shiny new engines out there? So i understand why the Creation Engine is here to stay.

 

What i don't understand is why and how they can't implement basic things like ladders. This was discussed on this thread already so i'm not breaking any new grounds here but it makes no sense to me why they can't just implement it. We know it can be done, modders have done it before yet the devs at Bethesda who worked on the actual engine itself can't figure it out? I find that hard to believe, they're not dumb. Is it a lack of interest? They upgraded the engine so much for Starfield anyway, using photogrammetry and newer rendering/lighting systems among many others yet not a single person in the entire team thought that they should finally add a ladder functionality? How hard could it be if modders can do it?

 

I don't know what they're thinking. Obviously lack of ladders is not a deal breaker for me, so i'm not mad or anything but i just don't understand what's keeping them from doing it.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Mr. Otaku
"Do you know the definition of a typo?" -Crazy Man With A Mohawk

[27X]

They can implement things like ladders. The person in charge of ladders is a woman that likes animating horses and not animating people. She is also in charge of the behavior section of all bethesda games and has literal tenure at the company.

[Mr. Otaku]

15 minutes ago, 27X said:

They can implement things like ladders. The person in charge of ladders is a woman that likes animating horses and not animating people. She is also in charge of the behavior section of all bethesda games and has literal tenure at the company.

 

That sounds very odd, why would someone who likes to animate horses be put in charge of ladders? Is "ladders" an actual position? Does she deliberately prevent the implementation of ladders in the games? Why?

 

How do you know all this anyway?

[27X]

Because I work in the industry. Any AI/PC non-dialog interaction is handled by behaviors in Bethbryo, and she can't be assed to care about ladders and quite literally, no one has the balls to ask her.

 

Meanwhile: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/63232

[Mr. Otaku]

12 minutes ago, 27X said:

Because I work in the industry. Any AI/PC non-dialog interaction is handled by behaviors in Bethbryo, and she can't be assed to care about ladders and quite literally, no one has the balls to ask her.

 

Meanwhile: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/63232

 

You know, you should really tag or quote people when you're replying to them. Unless you don't want your replies to be seen by the person you're replying to for some reason.

 

But damn, that's some horrible management going on at Bethesda if that's the case. Did nobody talk to Todd or any of the other high ranking people there about the ladder thing? I mean surely someone in that company ranks higher than her so what gives? They're all lazy?

 

Speaking of which, you say you work in the industry so have you seen any gameplays of Starfield? Or would that be a legal toaster bath?

[t.ara]

On 8/14/2022 at 11:36 PM, South8028 said:

No, the character moves to where the root is in the exit animation. Also people use placeatNode to move around. It works without animation too.

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/11382548-script-placeatnode/page-1

Yes, that is used also in zap...you can enter closed gibbets with that little "warp"...i also have experimented with that when I made my whiterun brothel. That ´s sci-fi as you can regulate also the speed and look at it specially.

But I exactly talked about an furniture and it ´s animations. I also tested to get a different exit for the enter- and exit point-which has to be caused by an animation, which is not playing loop and which has a different place of end. Anyway -after your exit, your character is back exactly where everything has been started. I only see a chance by using an activator with a single idle with defined start and end-point...for a defined length of height-this I can check out after zap is ready.

[t.ara]

While rockstar has taken lot of ideas from modders and creators and put it successfully into gta and rdr, I do not see a same for bethesda. Bethesda has to create a serious concept for an online game-means no HUGE world is necessary-lol, from my point of few have they lost the chance for online gameplay.

Instead of adding new content into a SKYRIM II-like riding with followers on horses, add a better animation-engine, adding more interaction with npcs, ladder-climbing-lol, flying with wings-all that stuff which has been made by modders and creators - a simply more detailed animation-system also for animals and new creatures....they totally lost this chance.

The same happened with OBLIVION-that game could have opened a real medieval-game-genre with lot of social-interactive functions...lost chance also here.

Fo4 interrupted this-that´s my opinion-and in between is toddy only thinking "sci-fi"..lol-okay:-))

Edited August 16, 2022 by t.ara

[27X]

2 hours ago, Mr. Otaku said:

But damn, that's some horrible management going on at Bethesda if that's the case. Did nobody talk to Todd or any of the other high ranking people there about the ladder thing? I mean surely someone in that company ranks higher than her so what gives? They're all lazy?

 

 

You're asking the wrong question and staring very intently at the wrong tree.

 

The actual question(s) is: Does ladder mechanics make [Bethesda Game] GOTY and sell an extra 10 million copies on launch day.

 

And the answer is Did FO3 have ladders, did FO4 have ladders, did Oblivion have ladders and did Skyrim have ladders before 2022.

 

One of these has things and one of them does not, and they have sold about the same number of copies at concurrent title lifespans.

 

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by 27X

[Mr. Otaku]

24 minutes ago, 27X said:

You're asking the wrong question and staring very intently at the wrong tree.

 

The actual question(s) is: Does ladder mechanics make [Bethesda Game] GOTY and sell an extra 10 million copies on launch day.

 

And the answer is Did FO3 have ladders, did FO4 have ladders, did Oblivion have ladders and did Skyrim have ladders before 2022.

 

One of these has things and one of them does not, and they have sold about the same number of copies at concurrent title lifespans.

 

Interesting. So, Bethesda can't be bothered to add the functionality because they sell well regardless? Doesn't that count as being lazy which is what i originally said?

 

I mean, GTA SanAndreas sold an insane amount despite not having any ladder system yet Rockstar kept beefing up their engine and eventually added ladders among a myriad of other systems. I doubt Rockstar ever thought their games will sell better if they added ladders but they did it anyway, so maybe they're way less lazy than Bethesda? I'm not asking for RDR2 levels of details but come on.

 

But i still don't understand, why go through the effort of upgrading the whole Creation Engine in so many ways yet leave out the ladders? Being lazy is one thing but this is just weird. Hell, they could easily contact a modder who created a ladder mod for their game and say "we're gonna pay you x amount of money in exchange for the rights to fully own and use your codes in our engines" and boom there you go, now they have ladders in the official games.

 

I don't know what they're thinking lol. Even the laziest aren't that lazy so what's going on?

Edited August 16, 2022 by Mr. Otaku
"Do you know the definition of a typo?" -Crazy Man With A Mohawk

[RohZima]

27 minutes ago, Mr. Otaku said:

 

Interesting. So, Bethesda can't be bothered to add the functionality because they sell well regardless? Doesn't that count as being lazy which is what i originally said?

 

I mean, GTA SanAndreas sold an insane amount despite not having any ladder system yet Rockstar kept beefing up their engine and eventually added ladders among a myriad of other systems. I doubt Rockstar ever thought their games will sell better if they added ladders but they did it anyway, so maybe they're way less lazy than Bethesda? I'm not asking for RDR2 levels of details but come on.

 

But i still don't understand, why go through the effort of upgrading the whole Creation Engine in so many ways yet leave out the ladders? Being lazy is one thing but this is just weird. Hell, they could easily contact a modder who created a ladder mod for their game and say "we're gonna pay you x amount of money in exchange for the rights to fully own and use your codes in our engines" and boom there you go, now they have ladders in the official games.

 

I don't know what they're thinking lol. Even the laziest aren't that lazy so what's going on?

 

Tara said earlier there are gameplay problems with using a ladder that make it not worth implementing. Imagine arrows or bullets raining down on you when you are stuck on a damn ladder. Now imagine arrows or bullets raining down on you, while you are stuck on a ladder that you accidently activated with a mis-click. That's horrible gameplay and that's not Bethesda gameplay which needs to be free flowing and not "hooking in" to different animations systems, ruining the pace of play.

[RohZima]

6 hours ago, 27X said:

They can implement things like ladders. The person in charge of ladders is a woman that likes animating horses and not animating people. She is also in charge of the behavior section of all bethesda games and has literal tenure at the company.

 

Do you know why FO4 has an almost cutesy, feminine - borderline stylized feel to it, relative to the harsh and gritty feel of 3/NV?

 

That, and the settlement system is what spoilt it in my opinion. The settlement system because it created a separate game within the game, leading to dissipation of energy by the playing/modding community. Too much choice is a bad thing...

[27X]

10 hours ago, RohZima said:

 

Do you know why FO4 has an almost cutesy, feminine - borderline stylized feel to it, relative to the harsh and gritty feel of 3/NV?

 

That, and the settlement system is what spoilt it in my opinion. The settlement system because it created a separate game within the game, leading to dissipation of energy by the playing/modding community. Too much choice is a bad thing...

 

1. focus testing

2. Now Bethesda is never going to address the things they inherited from a company made of adults, Now Bethesda doesn't address the comfy things like slavery and humanity's incoming extinction and literal elven racism which they formerly wrote into their own titles. Molag Bal.

3. Settlements/Townshipping were by far and away by almost an order of magnitude the most requested thing in every fallout poll both public and private. You know all the people asking for Shepard back in ME IV? Careful what you wish for.

4. FO3 and NV are actually pretty damn sanitized, they just weren't woke. When society breaks down ALL the rules go out the window, but you're never going to play that game in the western market unless it's made by an indie.

5. The modding tools are a hot mess, and settlements have nothing to do with that.

6. Bethesda games are rather generic by design and given sales and news thereof, they have literally no reason to change that course until such time as being generic causes sales loss.

 

 

11 hours ago, Mr. Otaku said:

can't be bothered

 

Skyrim has sold/transferred/ARR MATEY 33 million copies... 60K people have downloaded a ladder mod. *shrug*

Edited August 16, 2022 by 27X