Devious Devices Framework Development/Beta

[Code Serpent]

I have a small suggestion: changing the gag item filtering. I think that the type of potions/food removed should depend on the type of gag. So, only solid food is removed when wearing a ring gag or opened panel gag, and all food and potions are removed if wearing a ball gag or closed panel gag. If possible, I think food items should also be removed when wearing closed-head devices like Gas Masks, since they don't have an opening for eating or drinking.

 

Differentiating solid food from drinks and soups could be done fairly efficiently by checking what the 'consume' sound is for each food/potion by using the GetUseSound() function. Drinks use either ITMPoisonUse or ITMPotionUSE sound descriptors, stews and soups use NPCHumanEatSoup, and mostly everything else uses ITMFoodEat.

[paparebbe]

Potions could be consumed through enemas ? Old alcoholic trick to avoid bad breath and still get drunk. I guess same could be applied to potions lol

[Princessity]

On 8/6/2022 at 7:09 PM, Roggvir said:

The code difference is only inside the zadBoundCombatScript.psc.
No different versions of ESM are neccessary, in the absolutely "worst" case, there may be only one possible change to ESM (to accomodate option #2 described below), by adding two new special factions to the ESM, but even if doing so, that same ESM could be still used whether the user is using DAR or not.

When it comes to the actual differences to the zadBoundCombatScript code, we have two options:

  Reveal hidden contents

1. Simple code removal only.
   It consists of commenting out some code, nothing is added, code is only removed from inside of some functions.
   All functions still exists of course, only some of them are not needed at all, so their function body was emptied, and few others were gutted only partially, so they aren't doing any real work anymore apart from running through a few conditions to return some values as expected (none of them is supposed to be called from 3rd party code, but you never know what ppl do, so best not to mess with their return values).
   To the outside, the resulting code is exactly the same, it just isn't doing stuff it doesn't have to do anymore.
    
2. Removing some code, but modifying other.
   Most of the code that would be simply removed in option #1, will be still removed here, but some of it would be slightly changed - instead of calling FNIS AA functions, it will add the actor into a special faction with faction rank corresponding to the desired Animation Set.
   This is a micro-optimization that allows to simplify the DAR conditions.
   
   For example, the conditions for Hobble Dress require checking for two keywords on worn items - checking for keyword on worn items can be slow (we're talking in terms of dozens of miliseconds, but still, why not use faster solution if available) and we are making DAR to run such "slow" check twice.
   Now, if we also add different anim sets depending on whether the actor is male or female, that means adding one more condition.
   Using faction with a numebr rank, we can use 1 single condition for every Animation Set, instead of 2 or 3 (or maybe 4 in some rare cases).

The option #2 is not strictly necessary.
Based on my testing, i was unable to notice any difference in a test scenario where DAR was being used to enforce Hobble Animation Set on every single NPC i met in game.
The only jankyness i could observe came from when animations got sped up by the game due to NPCs hurrying somewhere, etc.
Still, it is something to consider - and i think it comes down to what is easier to maintain, which i think is the option #1.

Regardless of the choice, to any outside scripts the resulting code will appear to be the exactly the same as before, with exactly the same outside functionality.

Hiiiiii! I'm terribly sorry for what zadBoundCombatScript has put you through! Please forgive me >.< I'm the one who's responsible for the cumbersome, overcomplicated mess it has been for... how many years now? Ooops... XD

 

In my defence, I've been on a long long Skyrim hiatus, but I recently found out about all the new stuff SSE's come up with, so I installed it to play around with Nemesis, DAR, MCO, TDM, etc. and holy cup noodles! The leaps modders have made with Skyrim's awful animation framework... it's like cavemen vs astronauts. It almost feels like a modern UE/Unity game now.

 

I've checked out your FNIS -> DAR converter too and it totally blew my mind! It has 0 delay when switching between animation overrides, the entire script becomes basically redundant and I imagine I could simply delete the behaviour files to reduce the strain on FNIS/Nemesis down to 0 as well. Which is amazing because FNIS AA maintenance used to be the most fragile and demanding of all DD functions; it always terrified me to have like 10 seconds of vulnerability to disaster if anything else called FNIS at the same time.

 

As far as I'm concerned, DAR makes FNIS AA completely redundant. I cannot imagine a single reason to retain the archaic FNIS implementation of the same thing, but significantly worse.

So I'm a little puzzled. Why do you want to keep FNIS AA as an option? Unless I'm missing something, all that such a legacy option would do is inflate the FOMOD installation process and give users a bad choice they shouldn't even consider now that DAR has completely superseded it.

Is there anything I could do to help erase all traces of FNIS AA from DD and put those embarrassing past mistakes behind me so we could all pretend it never happened? ^^

Edited August 9, 2022 by Princessity

[naaitsab]

2 hours ago, Princessity said:

Hiiiiii! I'm terribly sorry for what zadBoundCombatScript has put you through! Please forgive me >.< I'm the one who's responsible for the cumbersome, overcomplicated mess it has been for... how many years now? Ooops... XD

 

In my defence, I've been on a long long Skyrim hiatus, but I recently found out about all the new stuff SSE's come up with, so I installed it to play around with Nemesis, DAR, MCO, TDM, etc. and holy cup noodles! The leaps modders have made with Skyrim's awful animation framework... it's like cavemen vs astronauts. It almost feels like a modern UE/Unity game now.

 

I've checked out your FNIS -> DAR converter too and it totally blew my mind! It has 0 delay when switching between animation overrides, the entire script becomes basically redundant and I imagine I could simply delete the behaviour files to reduce the strain on FNIS/Nemesis down to 0 as well. Which is amazing because FNIS AA maintenance used to be the most fragile and demanding of all DD functions; it always terrified me to have like 10 seconds of vulnerability to disaster if anything else called FNIS at the same time.

 

As far as I'm concerned, DAR makes FNIS AA completely redundant. I cannot imagine a single reason to retain the archaic FNIS implementation of the same thing, but significantly worse.

So I'm a little puzzled. Why do you want to keep FNIS AA as an option? Unless I'm missing something, all that such a legacy option would do is inflate the FOMOD installation process and give users a bad choice they shouldn't even consider now that DAR has completely superseded it.

Is there anything I could do to help erase all traces of FNIS AA from DD and put those embarrassing past mistakes behind me so we could all pretend it never happened? ^^

Long time no see *waves* 

 

The choice to stick with FNIS or what currently is (somewhat) in the works a hybrid is so DD does not force another/new dependency.  The mod is designed around LE and converted to SSE as the other way around is wayyy bigger pain in the butt. And on LE the adoption of DAR is not that great as most other popular mods are no longer maintained and rely on FNIS.  But if it does away with a lot of janky scripts to butcher the wanted effects all together it could be a strong contender to think about this some more. As janky animation swaps are always a letdown, so the lesser the better.

 

I don't use DAR but from what I've seen it's quite a easy install and does not break old FNIS mods, right?

[thedarkone1234]

Maybe I am missing something silly but doesn't sexlab depend on FNIS? Doesn't that also mean that as a byproduct FNIS is not going anywhere anytime soon? This is a point in favor of keeping FNIS compatiblity simply because it will be around anyway. So the options are not having only FNIS or only DAR, but having FNIS or both.

 

I had a very brief experience with DAR but I recall I had issues with it fighting with FNIS over which animation gets played in certain cases

 

 

[Taki17]

1 hour ago, thedarkone1234 said:

Maybe I am missing something silly but doesn't sexlab depend on FNIS?

DAR is not a replacment for FNIS, rather a replacment for its rather cumbersome AA functionality. More on that here from @Roggvir:

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Taki17

[Hex Bolt]

2 hours ago, naaitsab said:

I don't use DAR but from what I've seen it's quite a easy install and does not break old FNIS mods, right?

That's right.  I'm on LE, I use DAR, and I love it!  There's no conflict with FNIS, but DAR can take over some of the jobs that FNIS used to do (some of the jobs -- it's not an FNIS replacement).  In my game, DAR replaced FNIS_PCEA2 for PC-specific animations.  But it's so much better, because with DAR I can set up specific idles for individual NPCs, such as a special follower, or have DAR select an idle to play based on various conditions.

 

2 hours ago, naaitsab said:

And on LE the adoption of DAR is not that great as most other popular mods are no longer maintained and rely on FNIS.

If there were a time to thrust a new dependence on players, this is it.  DAR doesn't use a mod slot.  It's just an SKSE plugin.  Its only dependence is SKSE.  It's fast, flexible, and its presence doesn't break FNIS or mods that rely on FNIS.

Edited August 9, 2022 by HexBolt8

[Herowynne]

2 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

In my game, DAR replaced FNIS_PCEA2 for PC-specific animations.  But it's so much better, because with DAR I can set up specific idles for individual NPCs, such as a special follower, or have DAR select an idle to play based on various conditions.

What a coincidence - I play SE, but I also began using DAR as a replacement for FNIS_PCEA2.

 

FNIS_PCEA2 consumed so many FNIS animations, and I only used a handful of them. I am able to use those few player-specific animations much more easily with DAR, and with DAR I have total control over the relative priority of the different animations.

[thedarkone1234]

3 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

If there were a time to thrust a new dependence on players, this is it.  DAR doesn't use a mod slot.  It's just an SKSE plugin.  Its only dependence is SKSE.  It's fast, flexible, and its presence doesn't break FNIS or mods that rely on FNIS.

 

Can now confirm. I tried DAR again to see if I can recall what issue I had with it and apparently I couldn't find it. I even went and tested crazy stuff such as "how does an extreme hobbledress sneak animation works while casting a spell when having DAR change casting animations" and the legs acted according to the the dress while the arms acted according to the DAR.

 

(I did discover as a byproduct that "weapons/spells unsheathed" animations only exists for hobble dresses while you are sneaking, and not while you are standing. Apprarently it was missing since forever XD)

[serranna]

Reading all this talk about DAR has me wanting to ask one question.

 

Is it simple to install and use? Basically I want to know if I can install it with NMM and start using it right away or is it more complicated than that? Reading all these messages implies there is some additional configurations or something involved which might scare me away from using it because I have no idea what I'm doing after about 2-3 years of playing this game.

[Code Serpent]

18 minutes ago, serranna said:

Reading all this talk about DAR has me wanting to ask one question.

 

Is it simple to install and use? Basically I want to know if I can install it with NMM and start using it right away or is it more complicated than that? Reading all these messages implies there is some additional configurations or something involved which might scare me away from using it because I have no idea what I'm doing after about 2-3 years of playing this game.

It's the easiest thing to install. You just download and install the SKSE plugin, which then reads animations from a designated folder. The user doesn't need to do anything beyond having the files in the right place.

[serranna]

16 hours ago, Code Serpent said:

It's the easiest thing to install. You just download and install the SKSE plugin, which then reads animations from a designated folder. The user doesn't need to do anything beyond having the files in the right place.

 

So it's basically just plug and play? No program to run like when you have to run FNIS every time you install a mod that has animations? DAR won't require anything in addition to that?

 

Sounds like there is no real downside to at least try it after this gets out of beta.

[naaitsab]

21 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

If there were a time to thrust a new dependence on players, this is it.  DAR doesn't use a mod slot.  It's just an SKSE plugin.  Its only dependence is SKSE.  It's fast, flexible, and its presence doesn't break FNIS or mods that rely on FNIS.

If that is the case then I don't see any additional value into any effort into making DD support both. SKSE is mandatory already for like all framework mods and if it does not break anything on LE and SE FNIS wise then it should be a clear vote to push it trough. More so if it does away with dodgy AA workaround scripts. One thing to consider might be engine/script load. I there info on that?

 

Is there already a working solution/patch for DD at the moment or does it needs to be developed? 

[thedarkone1234]

2 minutes ago, naaitsab said:

If that is the case then I don't see any additional value into any effort into making DD support both. SKSE is mandatory already for like all framework mods and if it does not break anything on LE and SE FNIS wise then it should be a clear vote to push it trough. More so if it does away with dodgy AA workaround scripts. One thing to consider might be engine/script load. I there info on that?

 

Is there already a working solution/patch for DD at the moment or does it needs to be developed? 

 

It will still have to be properly tested to make sure it doesn't clash into things. Sexlab is still FNIS so at least sex animations will probably have to remain in FNIS, while the idle/walk/run/combat/sneak animations can probably safely move to DAR

[Princessity]

On 8/9/2022 at 4:54 PM, naaitsab said:

Long time no see *waves* 

 

The choice to stick with FNIS or what currently is (somewhat) in the works a hybrid is so DD does not force another/new dependency.  The mod is designed around LE and converted to SSE as the other way around is wayyy bigger pain in the butt. And on LE the adoption of DAR is not that great as most other popular mods are no longer maintained and rely on FNIS.  But if it does away with a lot of janky scripts to butcher the wanted effects all together it could be a strong contender to think about this some more. As janky animation swaps are always a letdown, so the lesser the better.

 

I don't use DAR but from what I've seen it's quite a easy install and does not break old FNIS mods, right?

Oh... I see. So people simply don't know how it works?

Well, like others have said, it's the easiest thing in the world. You just drop it in and it works on its own - no setup, no MCM, not even an esp you need to tick. For people who use a lot of Sexlab packs, it might be a good idea to edit the .ini and increase the animation limit, but otherwise, it's plug-and-play.

DAR does everything on its own with no user action required. All it needs is for the animations to be present in the right folders with a text file that outlines the trigger conditions. In fact, that makes it possible to create DAR mods without ever compiling a papyrus script or even launching CK.

 

Roggvir's conversion of DD AAs demonstrates it perfectly (well, almost perfectly, I think the default output folders have way too low of a priority, so other popular DAR animations may override them; that should probably be addressed before it goes into testing.)

 

And yes, it is completely conflict-free with FNIS - everything is handled by a SKSE dll. So whether you use FNIS, Nemesis, both, or none, DAR doesn't care, it just does its own thing.

 

Whether you're on LE, SE, or AE, I would suggest simply giving it a go. Install DAR (LE, SE/AE) and find some very simple DAR anim replacer (here's EVG for LE and SE/AE, probably the most popular one, it changes your idles depending on various conditions like nudity, low stamina, low health, etc.) Just install them, don't even touch your FNIS For Users (you don't need it), and see how It Just Works™ out of the box.

 

If after testing this, you are still not convinced that FNIS AA has been rendered completely and utterly redundant, I rest my case. Obviously FNIS itself is still used for active animations, such as Sexlab doing its thing, but it should no longer be ALLOWED to replace vanilla behaviours like running, combat, idles, etc. For that, I think DAR is the superior solution, which requires only minimal input from the modder, and absolutely none from the user, while putting no humanly measurable strain on performance.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Princessity

[Princessity]

TL;DR, back when we first implemented bound combat and related features into DD, FNIS Alternate Animations was literally the only possible solution we had and it wasn't perfect even back then - Fore had to go to great lengths to accommodate us and I am forever grateful for his patience, but even he had to put his foot down and draw a line; FNIS AA was never going to be ideal for what DD wanted it to do.
 

But, it's 2022. Technology has moved on and DAR is the manifestation of that progress. Unlike FNIS, it is designed to do one job and one job only, and it does it perfectly. With about 90% less headache for the modder, and 100% less headache for the end user.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Princessity

[naaitsab]

34 minutes ago, thedarkone1234 said:

 

It will still have to be properly tested to make sure it doesn't clash into things. Sexlab is still FNIS so at least sex animations will probably have to remain in FNIS, while the idle/walk/run/combat/sneak animations can probably safely move to DAR

SL for LE official development is dead for quite some years now. So besides patches I don't expect that to change. But other many older un-maintained mods still use FNIS so the requirement for it to not break those is a hard one. So properly testing it with SL anims is important.

 

13 minutes ago, Princessity said:

Oh... I see. So people simply don't know how it works?

Well, like others have said, it's the easiest thing in the world. You just drop it in and it works on its own - no setup, no MCM, not even an esp you need to tick. For people who use a lot of Sexlab packs, it might be a good idea to edit the .ini and increase the animation limit, but otherwise, it's plug-and-play.

DAR does everything on its own with no user action required. All it needs is for the animations to be present in the right folders with a text file that outlines the trigger conditions. In fact, that makes it possible to create DAR mods without ever compiling a papyrus script or even launching CK.

 

Roggvir's conversion of DD AAs demonstrates it perfectly (well, almost perfectly, I think the default output folders have way too low of a priority, so other popular DAR animations may override them; that should probably be addressed before it goes into testing.)

 

And yes, it is completely conflict-free with FNIS - everything is handled by a SKSE dll. So whether you use FNIS, Nemesis, both, or none, DAR doesn't care, it just does its own thing.

 

Whether you're on LE, SE, or AE, I would suggest simply giving it a go. Install DAR (LE, SE/AE) and find some very simple DAR anim replacer (here's EVG for LE and SE/AE, probably the most popular one, it changes your idles depending on various conditions like nudity, low stamina, low health, etc.) Just install them, don't even touch your FNIS For Users (you don't need it), and see how It Just Works™ out of the box.

 

If after testing this, you are still not convinced that FNIS AA has been rendered completely and utterly redundant, I rest my case. Obviously FNIS itself is still used for active animations, such as Sexlab doing its thing, but it should no longer be ALLOWED to replace vanilla behaviours like running, combat, idles, etc. For that, I think DAR is the superior solution, which requires only minimal input from the modder, and absolutely none from the user, while putting no humanly measurable strain on performance.

It's not very clear on the tin that DAR only involves the motion animations. Not the "static" animations like sex scenes. I don't think I use many AA's outside of DD. Perhaps some more femine walk stuff, guess that could be replaced if a DAR version exists.  

[Princessity]

8 minutes ago, naaitsab said:

SL for LE official development is dead for quite some years now. So besides patches I don't expect that to change. But other many older un-maintained mods still use FNIS so the requirement for it to not break those is a hard one. So properly testing it with SL anims is important.

 

It's not very clear on the tin that DAR only involves the motion animations. Not the "static" animations like sex scenes. I don't think I use many AA's outside of DD. Perhaps some more femine walk stuff, guess that could be replaced if a DAR version exists.  

Okay, let me clear it up then:

Right now, this is how DD is set up:

 

- FNIS handles active animations (Sexlab, struggle anims)

- FNIS handles movement and combat while bound

- Princess has many regrets

After Roggvir converts DD bound animations to use DAR:

 

- FNIS handles active animations (Sexlab, struggle anims)

- DAR handles movement and combat while bound

- Princess is happy and sane

 

FNIS won't go away, just one of its features will no longer be used, and  DAR is simply added as a new, very lightweight, requirement.

[Kimy]

Long time, no see, @Princessity. Great to see you back!

 

I am already convinced that DAR is the future, which is why I want DAR support to go into DD ASAP.

 

For the time being, I just thought it would be prudent to keep FNIS-AA in there as well, so people have the option to install what they want. In the long run (e.g. next larger update), I can see me dropping it, really. Let's see what patch Roggvir comes up with and give it a proper test.

[Princessity]

3 hours ago, Kimy said:

Long time, no see, @Princessity. Great to see you back!

 

I am already convinced that DAR is the future, which is why I want DAR support to go into DD ASAP.

 

For the time being, I just thought it would be prudent to keep FNIS-AA in there as well, so people have the option to install what they want. In the long run (e.g. next larger update), I can see me dropping it, really. Let's see what patch Roggvir comes up with and give it a proper test.

Hiiiiiii! ❤️

 

Hmm... Phasing it out gently sounds reasonable, I suppose. As long as DD ditches FNIS AA eventually, I can rest easy knowing that it won't be held back by a legacy system that I remember none of us were ever fully satisfied with. And most of it is because my stubborn butt was too preoccupied with big long-term plans she was never going to pull off instead of the needs of the framework at the moment.

I'm so sorry for leaving so abruptly with so much still left to do and so many plans unrealised >.< In retrospect, I was such a petty and selfish child >.>

 

In any case, I love what Roggvir is doing ❤️ I'm so happy to see that DD is still in good hands and continues to evolve and grow.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Princessity

[Xuvish]

What is the most current version of Beta 5.2 for LE?

[zarantha]

1 hour ago, Xuvish said:

What is the most current version of Beta 5.2 for LE?

 

Beta 7 on pg. 193

[audhol]

Are you guys interested in some new models?

 

I made a modified version of the panel gag to see what it would look like,

 

Spoiler

 

And here is the Muzzle gag I was thinking of making,

 

Spoiler

 

[naaitsab]

2 hours ago, audhol said:

Are you guys interested in some new models?

 

I made a modified version of the panel gag to see what it would look like,

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

And here is the Muzzle gag I was thinking of making,

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

A slut gag version, I like it ? 

Edited August 12, 2022 by naaitsab

[beerman778]

12 hours ago, audhol said:

Are you guys interested in some new models?

 

I made a modified version of the panel gag to see what it would look like,

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

And here is the Muzzle gag I was thinking of making,

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Looks awesome!

 

If you are looking for inspiration on new devices, what do you think of these:

- https://www.deviantart.com/noone102000/art/FREEBIE-BDSM-Ballerina-Boots-777815555

- https://www.deviantart.com/noone102000/art/FREEBIE-Bondage-Leather-Legbinder-761459812 (Could be a leg-only version of the hobble dress)