Devious Devices Framework Development/Beta

[Lupine00]

7 hours ago, Kimy said:

Confirmed. I didn't notice it at first, but the commit failed because a file was exceeding GitHub's maximum allowed size. Will look into it.

The size limit for an entire github repo is not large (75GB with some wiggle up to 100) and the per file limit is 100MB, so you could easily hit that if you store a lot of binaries... Which you do. But they're tiny binaries, so it's still under 3GB for DDx, as far as I can see. DDi is super-tiny.

 

https://help.github.com/en/articles/what-is-my-disk-quota

 

[Kimy]

Yeah, the total size is not the issue, but one of the new rope devices had a Bodyslide file over 100 MB... :S

[LazyBoot]

8 hours ago, Kimy said:

Yeah, the total size is not the issue, but one of the new rope devices had a Bodyslide file over 100 MB... :S

Would git lfs be something to look into?

[rjn]

For Devious Devices Expansion:

 

I think the restrictive boots should not block body slot 53.  Yes they cover the ankles but as currently implemented there are some problems/inconsistencies.

 

1:  With slot 53 blocked the ankle fetters can still be equipped but are invisible on the player (ankle chain sound still plays)

2:  Pony boots which have the same body coverage as restrictive boots do not block slot 53 and work properly with ankle fetters.

[Kimy]

Right, while I am trying to figure out the rope devices, here is a little update for DDI:

 

- Added: 4 new bound sex animations for the pet suit, made by Billyy!

- Added: New perk system for bound combat that makes your kicks stronger and/or reduces your damage taken, depending on what devices are worn and for how long.
- Changed: Removed deprecated armbinder effect code.
- Fixed: The animation filter now correctly handles all wrist restraint types.
- Fixed: The routine used to check for valid SexLab scene actors can now correctly tell apart animals from creatures.
- Fixed: Several harness AAs no longer block the belt slot when they shouldn't.
- Fixed: Shouting no longer breaks NPC animations.
- Fixed: Added missing 5th stage to Billyy's yoke animations

[Kimy]

Here are the current new bound combat perks and their values. Balance-wisely, this stuff is VERY likely to be off. I'd appreciate input on the values! The idea is to make bound combat a viable way to play the game, so it's -meant- to make tied-up people stronger in battle than they used to be. It's however not meant to make being bound a no-brainer. These values probably need major balancing, still.

 

Perks:
- If DD boots are worn: +25% damage (Spiky heels)
- Belt is worn: +25% damage (Desperate)
- If Gag is worn: +25% damage (Actions speak loader than words)
- If Collar is worn: +10% damage (Underestimated Slave)
- If Plug is worn: +10% damage (Agitated)

- If Blindfold is worn: -50% damage (Stabbing in the dark)

- If Corset is worn: -20% damage received (Smaller target)
- If Arm/Leg Shackles are worn: -10% damage received each (Protected by Shackles)
- If DD gloves are worn: -20% damage (Protected by Gloves)
- If a suit is worn: -25% damage received (Distracting)

 

Has been worn wrist restraints for more than:
- 2 Hours: 5% more damage (Accustomed to Bondage)
- 5 Hours: 10% more damage (Accustomed to Bondage II)
- 12 Hours: 20% more damage (Accustomed to Bondage III)
- 24 Hours: 25% more damage (Accustomed to Bondage IV)
- 48 Hours: 50% more damage (Accustomed to Bondage V)

[Code Serpent]

Since an update is in the works, I think I should point out that GetWornDevice() still doesn't seem to work with corsets.

[Reesewow]

5 hours ago, Kimy said:

Here are the current new bound combat perks and their values. Balance-wisely, this stuff is VERY likely to be off. I'd appreciate input on the values! The idea is to make bound combat a viable way to play the game, so it's -meant- to make tied-up people stronger in battle than they used to be. It's however not meant to make being bound a no-brainer. These values probably need major balancing, still.

 

Perks:
- If DD boots are worn: +25% damage (Spiky heels)
- Belt is worn: +25% damage (Desperate)
- If Gag is worn: +25% damage (Actions speak loader than words)
- If Collar is worn: +10% damage (Underestimated Slave)
- If Plug is worn: +10% damage (Agitated)

- If Blindfold is worn: -50% damage (Stabbing in the dark)

- If Corset is worn: -20% damage received (Smaller target)
- If Arm/Leg Shackles are worn: -10% damage received each (Protected by Shackles)
- If DD gloves are worn: -20% damage (Protected by Gloves)
- If a suit is worn: -25% damage received (Distracting)

 

Has been worn wrist restraints for more than:
- 2 Hours: 5% more damage (Accustomed to Bondage)
- 5 Hours: 10% more damage (Accustomed to Bondage II)
- 12 Hours: 20% more damage (Accustomed to Bondage III)
- 24 Hours: 25% more damage (Accustomed to Bondage IV)
- 48 Hours: 50% more damage (Accustomed to Bondage V)

 

 

Some thoughts on what bound combat needs to be viable, from the perspective of a high level character using mods that add more difficult enemies:

 

 

I think the most important thing to keep in mind while trying to balance bound combat would be - can all types of players achieve "balanced" combat using DD's bound combat feature?  Keeping in mind that most long term players at this point will be using a variety of mods and difficulty options, and it can be assumed that "unbound" for any given player is their preferred difficulty.  I think to be viable, bound combat needs to be able to give a player combat power close to their normal values, or combat will break down unless the player breaks immersion and changes their game difficulty on the fly.

 

Essentially, I think the only way to achieve this would be to allow players to customize bound combat fairly significantly in the MCM menu, so when they are bound their character's power level is somewhat preserved.  For some characters, this would mean iron mace damage and scale armor with few perks, and for others (like myself) it means dragonbone level weapons with full tempering (160-200 weapon damage in my game, plus enchantments) and close to capped armor values.  

 

 

I think my suggestion for bound combat scaling that I can see being able to use in my game would be:

• wearing any device that triggers bound combat grants the player a static X damage per swing buff to unarmed combat, and X is set with a slider in the MCM menu.  In my game, I think I would set this to something like 150 damage per hit.  Hell, honestly this could be a permanent unarmed combat damage buff, since Bethesda declined to offer any scaling for it outside of one enchantment and a few unique items.

 

• rather than other bondage items adding large % boosts, they could offer smaller % boosts but to the much larger base damage.  So say 5% or 10% damage each for combat boots/belt/gag, -10% for blindfold, stacking 3% damage bonus ect.  I think trying to stay within the range of what the game's enchantments and buff potions would offer would be good practice.  Say stack up to 60-100% extra damage if you are being intelligent about your bondage gear choices.

 

• for defenses, I think a good idea could be to have the player be able to set their "bondage gear armor level", and then items that replace major armor slots could offer that level of protection (gloves, catsuits, hoods, boots ect).  I like the idea of some items having extra bonuses like distracting or smaller target, but perhaps the benefits offered could be less impactful, but still worth equipping the device for some extra power.  With a full set of defensive items, hopefully it could balance out to a well enchanted set of armor of the selected type, just way sexier.

 

 

TLDR - I think a good way to balance bound combat would be for the player to dictate the power level of the feature in terms of Skyirm gear, from the lowest levels to the highest and probably a bit further than that for the crazy people.  That is the system all non-modded gear in the game is based on (for better or for worse), so I think that is what DD's bound combat should strive to match.  I'd really love to see bound combat work well by default, as I already use some mods to try to get that effect (Combat boots and Bondage Mittens Magic).

[Kimy]

For balancing, I am pretty sure I will have to balance the system against vanilla Skyrim difficulty. I cannot take into account the gazillion of combat related mods people might or might not have installed, nor will I be able to make this system overly customizable without making it a performance hog.

[Reesewow]

9 minutes ago, Kimy said:

For balancing, I am pretty sure I will have to balance the system against vanilla Skyrim difficulty. I cannot take into account the gazillion of combat related mods people might or might not have installed, nor will I be able to make this system overly customizable without making it a performance hog.

Agreed, sticking to values from the base game would cover the vast majority of users.  If bound combat could be somewhat viable in comparison to dragonbone/daedric gear at the upper end, that should be enough for most anyone to work around.

 

My suggestion was basically a long winded way of saying I think it is important to have the buffs granted to bound combat scale to the player in some way, so the feature isn't overpowered at low levels and underpowered/non-viable at higher levels.  User customization is one way to do it, but something like level scaling or a multiplier slider could also accomplish something similar.  Tying the maximum/minimum power gained from the buffs to reasonable values you'd get from vanilla Skyrim gear of various quality could be another way of accomplishing this and keep the buffs balanced for the actual game.

 

Of course, the buffs existing at all would be an big improvement on the status quo - I just think if you are taking the time to do a balance pass on bound combat it would be the ideal time to try to have it be usable for the widest audience possible.  There is so much great animation and scripting work tied up in the system, it is a shame when there simply isn't opportunity to use it effectively in actual gameplay beyond the very early levels.

 

 

[SkyAddiction]

1 hour ago, Kimy said:

For balancing, I am pretty sure I will have to balance the system against vanilla Skyrim difficulty. I cannot take into account the gazillion of combat related mods people might or might not have installed, nor will I be able to make this system overly customizable without making it a performance hog.

 

Gods, yes. If I ever finish any of my projects, they're all balanced against vanilla Skyrim. I mean, isn't that the reason mod authors added MCMs? To balance against the base game as opposed to mods?

 

Edit: That looks superbly sarcastic when it's not. Modders use base Skyrim as a reference because it's sensible. It's the pure base game after all...

[Lupine00]

15 hours ago, Kimy said:

Perks:
- If DD boots are worn: +25% damage (Spiky heels)
- Belt is worn: +25% damage (Desperate)
- If Gag is worn: +25% damage (Actions speak loader than words)
- If Collar is worn: +10% damage (Underestimated Slave)
- If Plug is worn: +10% damage (Agitated)

- If Blindfold is worn: -50% damage (Stabbing in the dark)

- If Corset is worn: -20% damage received (Smaller target)
- If Arm/Leg Shackles are worn: -10% damage received each (Protected by Shackles)
- If DD gloves are worn: -20% damage (Protected by Gloves)
- If a suit is worn: -25% damage received (Distracting)

 

Has been worn wrist restraints for more than:
- 2 Hours: 5% more damage (Accustomed to Bondage)
- 5 Hours: 10% more damage (Accustomed to Bondage II)
- 12 Hours: 20% more damage (Accustomed to Bondage III)
- 24 Hours: 25% more damage (Accustomed to Bondage IV)
- 48 Hours: 50% more damage (Accustomed to Bondage V)

Are these perks completely optional? Can we disable them if we don't like them?

 

There are already quite a few mods that do this sort of thing, but in more interesting ways. BWitch, Devious Body Modification, DTII, and Spank that Ass, for example.

 

Is it necessary for DD to eat their lunch?

 

My development SLD also does this ... and far more ... far, far more, in an extremely configurable way.

(I'm just lagging at adding other features I want to ship in that release).

I've had to write a C++ storage util vector-math library to make the volume of calculations tractable.

 

In short, I have made it "overly customisable", you can customise for a number of stats tracked for all the major DD keywords, and the performance problem is solved. Also handles armor types, and bare feet.

 

It's great if they're present as a baseline option for players that don't want to install other mods beyond DD, but if they're non-optional they'll be a lot less desirable from my point of view, and perhaps that of others.

 

 

On a related topic, personally, I don't like lots of buffs from devices. I want devices to be a problem. There are quite a few devices (parasites mainly) that are almost like "easy mode" because they offer such huge buffs (usually magicka related for some reason). I don't understand why these things are becoming base DD functionality, when they are really the province of add-in mods, like Parasites, DCL, SL Stories, or (for those that want to set it up that way) SLD.

 

Surely, there's enough technical debt to pay back in DD that adding fairly peripheral features like this should be a way down the track?

 

 

I'd love to see bound combat extended, rather than just adding numbers we can't see. That dull numerical aspect is so much less impactful than being able to kick (at all) in a yoke. Or using your ball-and-chain as a weapon, or ... other actual fun stuff that needs animations that DD might be able to get that less notable mods probably never could.

 

New sex scenes for Pet Suit for example. That's awesome. I can't wait to see those.

[Kimy]

@Lupine00

 

Bound Combat is a DD feature that in its current state I consider lacklustre because of its very limited usefulness. We put all this work into this feature, including adopting AA animations instead of Overrides more or less -just- to accommodate it. And yet it doesn't change your game much. Sure, you can kick that stray wolf that without bound combat would have ended your bound journey right there. But it's not nearly powerful enough to attempt completing that dungeon run that just got interrupted by these silly cursed traps somebody thought were a good idea. Its also not powerful enough to try designing a bit of combat into bondage quests, meaning you have to carefully design any such content in ways that combat will never occur - in a game that's mainly about combat.

 

I added these perks for the simple reason to make this feature complete and actually do what its meant to do. There is no other reason.

 

Lately, I often get lines that sound like "how dare you adding this and that feature when mod x already does that!" This can have a couple of reasons, such as:

- I really had no idea what mod x does, because I never used it. Which is funnily enough the case for each and every single mod you named above, except BWitch (which AFAIK implements bound magic, not bound melee combat). People shouldn't assume that I have extensively played and tested each and every mod on LL, because I don't. I think a lot of people would be surprised when they'd see my load order and how few LL mods are actually installed there.

- I don't want to create implicit dependencies on 3rd party mods you basically HAVE to install to make a feature work as intended. I really don't want a bound combat feature with a "And now go install THAT mod to make it even work properly!" tag on it. That's shoddy design.

- I don't like the implementation of the other mod, so I write one that suits my own taste better. That happens surprisingly often, because my tastes seem to be a bit off-centre by LL standards (*points at the plethora of animal-related stuff on LL and rests her case*), and is probably explaining why I don't use all that many LL mods.

- I don't agree in the first place with the idea that a mod has a right to claim a monopoly on a feature just because it was there first, so to me that's not even a concern. People have lifted ideas from my mods too. It happens!
 

Another thing that I keep hearing is people complaining about me working on feature A when they would have preferred me to work on feature B. That's also a bit irritating, not only because it's still my decision on what I work on, but also because more often than not it amounts to telling me to work on something I don't even have the skills for. Like...animations. It's not that I haven't said 3-4 dozen times that I can code, but have no art related skills whatsoever, or so. If I work on a feature, there is about a 100% chance that it will be code, because that's what I do.

 

I agree that devices should still be a problem and not something you actively WANT to go for when playing. Which is why I was asking for balancing input to get this right. Bound combat should be -viable-, but people generally should prefer being untied when they go adventuring.

 

If you (or anyone else) have suggestions for improving bound combat by -code-, and make it more interesting I am all ears! The perks are one thing to make it better, but not necessarily the only one.

[Seph64]

Hey, is there a preview of what these new Rope Devices will look like once they've finally inserted in to the mod?

[rogynest]

1 hour ago, Seph64 said:

Hey, is there a preview of what these new Rope Devices will look like once they've finally inserted in to the mod?

 

[Seph64]

Nice. Thanks.

[Gräfin Zeppelin]

Ah just thinking loud but how about a gag shout for bound combat ?

I mean like if you wear a lets say locked ballgag you can do a shout which  I dunno..dispells summoned creatures or gives magic resistance, silences everyone or such.

Make it a one trick pony so gaged shouts are not op but one could work with such a device.

 

Likewise maybe a Yokebash.

[Code Serpent]

22 hours ago, Code Serpent said:

Since an update is in the works, I think I should point out that GetWornDevice() still doesn't seem to work with corsets.

Correction: GetWornDevice() doesn't work on corsets when a chastity belt is equipped. It does work in other cases. I also noticed that the Transparent Restrictive Corset has the wrong rendered device set.

[kurotatsu]

Adding bound combat perks in absolutely any form shouldn't be a problem as long as they can be disabled in MCM.

Also, it would be good to add along some magic perks similar to BWitch mod you mentioned?

[Darkpig]

Yeah there needs to be an option to disable the perks. Depending on a person's settings within the MCM Devious Devices can be pretty lax.

[Lupine00]

20 hours ago, Kimy said:

"how dare you adding this and that feature when mod x already does that!"

Well... I didn't say that.

Nor did I say anything that was really equivalent to any of the straw men you put up.

Maybe those things you put up and knock down are what you felt I said (for some reason), but they're not what I said.

 

I think I explained my thoughts on this the first time, so I don't think there's anything to gain by repeating them.

 

But I am sorry I asked if the perks are optional. It was paranoid and irrational. Of course, there's no reason you would ever make them compulsory. DCL has more options than anything in existence. There's simply no way you would make this not turn-off-able.

 

But there was no need to respond so ferociously. I think I'm entitled to a little panic now and again.

 

 

But you raised an interesting point about "fixing" bound combat, and what your goal for it is.

 

I can't really get on board with any of that goal, or agree that its necessary, but it's not a wrong or right thing, it's just a matter of preference and taste.

 

The idea of completing dungeon runs with bound combat is a long, long way from anything I'd ever desire in the game from devices or a bound combat feature. But it takes all sorts.

 

I suppose some people might want it to be more powerful. Perhaps a lot of people? Probably, if it extends the time they can spend looking at their near-naked character squirming in bondage, they're probably all for it. Put that way it sounds like it's too good an idea to pass up. In fact, don't even bother trying to balance it, just make it completely over-powered, so you're actually better off tied up! Nobody (hardly anybody) will complain, because they can finish Skyrim, defeat Miraak and Alduin, and build a fancy mansion with a hot tub full of naked ladies without ever removing their sexy armbinder. What's to complain about with that?

 

As you say, in its current form it is just about adequate so a player can complete a short LBA run without dying to the weakest of wolves, or an irate skeever. If you meet a troll, you're probably still dead, depending on level.

I'm fine with that. But I actually am off centre, while I think the stats show that @Kimy  is pretty much the core of where female-PC LL players want to be. Your choices are unfailingly mainstream and "on the money", and it's likely you're dead-on with this too. It will probably be a popular change.

 

Personally, I'd like ways to complete LBA without resort to conventional combat at all. I prefer my LBA perils to be human, and with something other than murder on their mind, rather than skeevers rendered lethal. I'd be perfectly happy with a "creatures stay away" bubble around me, as long as sexy bandit man wants to keep that pretty bound damsel for his very own.

 

On the other hand, you can't fight at all in a yoke, which is a bit odd, as it almost seems like a weapon in itself.

[qawsedrftg765]

2 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

 

On the other hand, you can't fight at all in a yoke, which is a bit odd, as it almost seems like a weapon in itself.

Headbutt attack sounds fun as heck.

[Kimy]

5 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Well... I didn't say that.

Nor did I say anything that was really equivalent to any of the straw men you put up.

Maybe those things you put up and knock down are what you felt I said (for some reason), but they're not what I said.

 

I think I explained my thoughts on this the first time, so I don't think there's anything to gain by repeating them.

 

But I am sorry I asked if the perks are optional. It was paranoid and irrational. Of course, there's no reason you would ever make them compulsory. DCL has more options than anything in existence. There's simply no way you would make this not turn-off-able.

 

But there was no need to respond so ferociously. I think I'm entitled to a little panic now and again.

 

 

But you raised an interesting point about "fixing" bound combat, and what your goal for it is.

 

I can't really get on board with any of that goal, or agree that its necessary, but it's not a wrong or right thing, it's just a matter of preference and taste.

 

The idea of completing dungeon runs with bound combat is a long, long way from anything I'd ever desire in the game from devices or a bound combat feature. But it takes all sorts.

 

I suppose some people might want it to be more powerful. Perhaps a lot of people? Probably, if it extends the time they can spend looking at their near-naked character squirming in bondage, they're probably all for it. Put that way it sounds like it's too good an idea to pass up. In fact, don't even bother trying to balance it, just make it completely over-powered, so you're actually better off tied up! Nobody (hardly anybody) will complain, because they can finish Skyrim, defeat Miraak and Alduin, and build a fancy mansion with a hot tub full of naked ladies without ever removing their sexy armbinder. What's to complain about with that?

 

As you say, in its current form it is just about adequate so a player can complete a short LBA run without dying to the weakest of wolves, or an irate skeever. If you meet a troll, you're probably still dead, depending on level.

I'm fine with that. But I actually am off centre, while I think the stats show that @Kimy  is pretty much the core of where female-PC LL players want to be. Your choices are unfailingly mainstream and "on the money", and it's likely you're dead-on with this too. It will probably be a popular change.

 

Personally, I'd like ways to complete LBA without resort to conventional combat at all. I prefer my LBA perils to be human, and with something other than murder on their mind, rather than skeevers rendered lethal. I'd be perfectly happy with a "creatures stay away" bubble around me, as long as sexy bandit man wants to keep that pretty bound damsel for his very own.

 

On the other hand, you can't fight at all in a yoke, which is a bit odd, as it almost seems like a weapon in itself.

I can confirm that the feature will be optional in the final release, so people who just want to kick stray wolves and otherwise want a more "realistic" bound experience that doesn't allow you to defeat a troll with your hands tied on your back, can continue to do that.

 

I actually agree with much of what you've said. If DD would not exist in Skyrim but be a standalone bondage game, there is no way I'd code a bound combat feature for that game, or any combat system for that matter. But that's not how it is. DD is set in a game that's almost exclusively about combat. If DD wouldn't deal with combat in at least -some- fashion, it would be severely limiting what bondage content can be implemented. Take LBA. Before bound combat arrived, LBA was pretty hard, to put it mildly. If you wandered just a bit too close to a spawn point, you'd be dead. These pesky wolves would literally follow you to the other side of Skyrim, gnawing away your health bar one point at a time. This way, people can put quests even in areas where combat might happen, not just into town and inns. That, in the end, is what bound combat tries to do - make more of the game world usable for bondage content.

[worik]

On 5/23/2019 at 4:59 PM, Kimy said:

If you (or anyone else) have suggestions for improving bound combat by -code-, and make it more interesting I am all ears!

That triggered some spinning wheels in my head. ?But I have the feeling that a few of them where mentioned already in the last years .. (forgive me my lack of proper source references)

1. In resemblance to the various Kung-Fu styles from movies or parodies, similar to the invention of the school of Gun-Kata, we need to invent the Bound-Kata - a new style of unarmed martial arts.It's not about one simple kick or bash, It's a new style.  And a heavy price to pay by the DD animators
2. If we would be attacking, it would an effort to implement a whole new branch of unarmed combat logic into Skyrim's weapon-centric engine
3. Thus, it could focus on defensive techniques like blocking, evading or redirecting an attack... maybe even adding "armor" points to symbolize raised survivability and pain tolerance
4. It's techniques could involve the principles of Parkour, that favors evasion, escape and the overcoming of obstacles instead of attacking or blocking an opponent
5. If we go for "perk trees" we could have specialities along the restriction that certain bondage equipment imposes
   1. blindfolded techniques / situational awareness
   2. yoke techniques
   3. arms-behind-back techniques
   4. pain tolarance / endurance
   5. "legs only" techniques and "arms only" techniques (..smashing someone with iron mittens ?)
   6. plugged techniques (concentration, stamina, health)
   7. chained techniques
   8. etc ...
   9. not all BDSM toys would make sense though and they would always depend on the individual logic of a special restraint type

[Kimy]

New animations are out of the question for now, so any suggestions need to be able to be implemented with code and -just- code.