Devious Devices Framework Development/Beta

[Kimy]

- Adds a boost to your unarmed damage (depending on your One or Two Handed skill level and what kind of boots you're wearing) when bound, so combat like this is a little more viable (can be disabled or enabled at any time in the MCM)

 

I have added a comprehensive feature for bound combat in the newest DDI development version, so this would be redundant with it.

 

- Automatically plays gagged sounds at any time when wearing any sort of gag (within configurable intervals, can be disabled)

 

Sounds fun. I'd merge that!

 

- Disallows/allows lockpicking when bound, or when barefoot only but with a debuff (configurable, can be disabled)

 

Ditto. Can go in, with a MCM toggle.

 

- Adds a (configurable) chance that when picking up an item (putting it into the inventory), it'll be dropped onto the ground when wearing wrist restraints (basically the feature bondage mittens from DDx have, but for all wrist restraints) (again, can be disabled)

 

Hm, not sure about this one. People find the mitten mechanics borderline too harsh already, and it can be argued that most other wrist restraints except the armbinders would not really prevent you from picking up stuff, as they don't seal your hands.

 

- Readds a feature that works sort of like the "Brute force" option that existed in earlier DD versions (at least I think so, I never played with those older versions myself), basically instead of just showing a "You can't do this with your hands bound" message when trying to interact with any device that is not the wrist restraint itself, it'll play the struggling animation before showing a more immersive message based on what kind of device you've tried to remove. Basically just for the people who like to watch their character struggle with a nice little flavor message.

 

Not sure I have understood you correct, but what you describe is how the system in DDI works, except that not all device types have struggle animations.

[Laura]

14 hours ago, Kimy said:

- Disallows/allows lockpicking when bound, or when barefoot only but with a debuff (configurable, can be disabled)

 

Ditto. Can go in, with a MCM toggle.

If you add this, please allow lockpicking by default. Having it disabled by default can mess with content from my mod. I don't want to have quests that can only be completed after changing an MCM setting.

[Lupine00]

15 hours ago, Kimy said:

- Adds a (configurable) chance that when picking up an item (putting it into the inventory), it'll be dropped onto the ground when wearing wrist restraints (basically the feature bondage mittens from DDx have, but for all wrist restraints) (again, can be disabled)

Some people would like it. Some would hate it. If it's not too hard to make it optional...

 

15 hours ago, Kimy said:

- Disallows/allows lockpicking when bound, or when barefoot only but with a debuff (configurable, can be disabled)

Can somebody explain to me why being barefoot should block lockpicking?

 

SLS has this feature already, and SLD can implement it selectively for any device you like, but it isn't unreasonable for it to be in DD if it's optional (personally, I think lock picking should be possible in handcuffs, as it is quite possible in reality, but options are good right?)

 

The bare feet thing though? I'm just puzzled!

[Kharos]

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

Can somebody explain to me why being barefoot should block lockpicking?

 

If I have to guess, the idea is to block lockpicking when bound (especially with armbinders, as it is impossible to use the hands) but allow it with a penalty when barefoot - I am sure you can figure out why .

 

My handcuffs mod for Fallout 4 has a somewhat related mechanic, it gives a penalty to lockpicking when cuffed (hands are still available but bound behind back, which makes lockpicking more difficult).

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, Kharos said:

but allow it with a penalty when barefoot

Ah it wasn't very clear...

 

You mean disallow lockpicking completely when bound in an armbinder, but allow it when bound and barefoot, though with a penalty?

 

I guess it wasn't clear about armbinders either.

 

I read bound to also include handcuffs and yokes, which would also permit lockpicking with some limitations, but I guess the intent is to only block lockpicking in an armbinder? I guess in extremis, you could also use your teeth, if not gagged. I believe Hollywood likes that one.

[Guest]

About  blocking lockpicking:  Remember the mouth.

 

Even with boots and an armbinder, if the mouth is ungaged, it should still be possible lockpick.  Actually, it is probably easier to lockpick with your mouth than with your feet in a lot of situations.

[seanthiar]

For lockpicking a lock you need in RL two hands - one to hold up and one to "feel" with the pick. That will maybe work with the mouth as a replacement for one hand to hold (with penalty) and not with feet. You can open a lock with feet or mouth alone if you have the key and the lock is easy reachable nut you can not lockpick. You can lockpick with shackled hands without problems even in handcuffs formed like an 8, but not with mittens or an armbinder. Being barefoot or gagged, even being blindfolded plays no role while lockpicking. Being blindfolded could even be a plus, because you can better concentrate without distraction. It plays only a role if the lock you want to pick can't be reached because of the bindings you have. For example if your shackles are connected to shackles at your feet you can't reach your neck to lockpick a collar. Being barefoot giving a penalty is not the correct way. I think a penalty could be given if you are in pain, aroused etc.. If you are in that state of mind you are not able to concentrate. on the lock.  A master could be pushed down to expert or even adept level depending on the amount of pain. The pain can be caused by being barefoot, but being barefoot by itself shouldn't be worth a penalty. You could wear shoes and getting spanked and the pain gives you a penalty or if you play with needs - the hunger gives you a tremor and you can't pick with that jitter. 

[DonQuiWho]

3 hours ago, seanthiar said:

For lockpicking a lock you need in RL two hands - one to hold up and one to "feel" with the pick. That will maybe work with the mouth as a replacement for one hand to hold (with penalty) and not with feet. You can open a lock with feet or mouth alone if you have the key and the lock is easy reachable nut you can not lockpick. You can lockpick with shackled hands without problems even in handcuffs formed like an 8, but not with mittens or an armbinder. Being barefoot or gagged, even being blindfolded plays no role while lockpicking. Being blindfolded could even be a plus, because you can better concentrate without distraction. It plays only a role if the lock you want to pick can't be reached because of the bindings you have. For example if your shackles are connected to shackles at your feet you can't reach your neck to lockpick a collar. Being barefoot giving a penalty is not the correct way. I think a penalty could be given if you are in pain, aroused etc.. If you are in that state of mind you are not able to concentrate. on the lock.  A master could be pushed down to expert or even adept level depending on the amount of pain. The pain can be caused by being barefoot, but being barefoot by itself shouldn't be worth a penalty. You could wear shoes and getting spanked and the pain gives you a penalty or if you play with needs - the hunger gives you a tremor and you can't pick with that jitter. 

FWIW, long ago, I saw a woman with no arms - became a local celebrity - who was a secretary, and part of her job was to use a manual typewriter.  She could replace paper, insert additional carbon paper for copies etc and type faster and better than many handed people.  I have little doubt she could have used a lockpick perfectly well

[seanthiar]

1 hour ago, donkeywho said:

FWIW, long ago, I saw a woman with no arms - became a local celebrity - who was a secretary, and part of her job was to use a manual typewriter.  She could replace paper, insert additional carbon paper for copies etc and type faster and better than many handed people.  I have little doubt she could have used a lockpick perfectly well

no chance - to use a lockpick you have one part you must press in one direction to stop the already picked parts of the lock to fall back in the locked position and with the other hand you sense with the pick which are still moveable and where they "click" to open. That are movements in the area of a micrometer. With one hand you can only "pick" a lock like a warded lock used for roomdoors in flats. But even before christ the egyptians and the chinese got better locks than that with springs, latches, wafers etc. and in the middle ages it was the same. Common doors were locked with a warded lock but if you need more security the locks were sometimes more complicated than today. 

Not to forget in the whole scenario - that women trained it a lifetime - somebody put in shackles is not used to that situation and getting flexible enough and learning that skill with foot and mouth does not happen in a few weeks.

[Kimy]

On 7/5/2019 at 1:58 AM, Laura 'Lokomootje' said:

If you add this, please allow lockpicking by default. Having it disabled by default can mess with content from my mod. I don't want to have quests that can only be completed after changing an MCM setting.

That's what I would do in any case, yes. The default behavior of DD4 will NOT change, neither for this feature, nor any other. Adding new features in general is still subject to them not unnecessarily breaking existing content. If DD mod creators are concerned about this feature, it will most certainly NOT go in. Honestly, I didn't think of that feature being able to cause issues and thought of it to be largely cosmetic, but situations like this ARE the reason why I removed most user customization from DD as of version 4. The main concern for DD is to make sure modders have a reliable base to create content on, which includes ensuring consistent device behavior and leaving most control in the hands of the modder, not the user.

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, seanthiar said:

to use a lockpick you have one part you must press in one direction to stop the already picked parts of the lock to fall back in the locked position and with the other hand you sense with the pick which are still moveable and where they "click" to open. That are movements in the area of a micrometer.

Right...

So the dragons, undead monsters, men in armor swinging swords, kinky outfits that lock themselves on you, and all that stuff led you to the natural conclusion that the locks in Skyrim are machined out of hardened chromalloy to micrometer tolerances using computer-controlled machine tools.

 

Any analysis of Skyrim locks, whether to argue that they should be primitive, or the reverse, is a pointless appeal to realism, which has no place in a game where the best appeal is to "ease of willing suspension of disbelief."

 

Lock picking with your feet (or your anus, as occurs in SLAV) is totally up for grabs in an LL mod.

[Jappa123]

@Kimy Any hint on what you are currently working on? It's been a while from last time you give us some info here or on patreon Thanks! 

[seanthiar]

51 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

Right...

So the dragons, undead monsters, men in armor swinging swords, kinky outfits that lock themselves on you, and all that stuff led you to the natural conclusion that the locks in Skyrim are machined out of hardened chromalloy to micrometer tolerances using computer-controlled machine tools.

 

Any analysis of Skyrim locks, whether to argue that they should be primitive, or the reverse, is a pointless appeal to realism, which has no place in a game where the best appeal is to "ease of willing suspension of disbelief."

 

Lock picking with your feet (or your anus, as occurs in SLAV) is totally up for grabs in an LL mod.

you did not read - that kind of locks we use today were already invented in egypt and china more than 2500years ago. They were not as small as today but sometimes more complicated than the mechanical locks today. The first known and digged out padlock is over 3000 years old. In the dark and middle ages one of the most secure were the screw locks. I think thats comparable to skyrim. Not possible lockpicking them at that time. They were out of cast bronze and because they are moisture resistant used for chastity. That kind of lock - called screwlock was in use until 1900 because it's nearly impossible to lockpick but it's not cheap and therefore not as popular.Easy picked locks wer used for chests for food or other goods. think of it like the bondage locks are screw locks like mostly master locks you  can't pick without the use of both hands and locks you can open with feet or mouth are novice locks.

SLAV unlock with magic - thats another solution and not the same as using feet as hands and if you are bound the bindings often blocks your magic

[Laura]

3 hours ago, Kimy said:

That's what I would do in any case, yes. The default behavior of DD4 will NOT change, neither for this feature, nor any other. Adding new features in general is still subject to them not unnecessarily breaking existing content. If DD mod creators are concerned about this feature, it will most certainly NOT go in. Honestly, I didn't think of that feature being able to cause issues and thought of it to be largely cosmetic, but situations like this ARE the reason why I removed most user customization from DD as of version 4. The main concern for DD is to make sure modders have a reliable base to create content on, which includes ensuring consistent device behavior and leaving most control in the hands of the modder, not the user.

Thank you.

Customization is really important, but not break existing content, not forcing mod makers to update it to make it compatible and making sure that players can't break content by changing an MCM setting takes priority.

[Lupine00]

9 hours ago, seanthiar said:

you did not read - that kind of locks we use today were already invented in egypt and china more than 2500years ago. They were not as small as today but sometimes more complicated than the mechanical locks today. The first known and digged out padlock is over 3000 years old. In the dark and middle ages one of the most secure were the screw locks. I think thats comparable to skyrim. Not possible lockpicking them at that time. They were out of cast bronze and because they are moisture resistant used for chastity. That kind of lock - called screwlock was in use until 1900 because it's nearly impossible to lockpick but it's not cheap and therefore not as popular.Easy picked locks wer used for chests for food or other goods. think of it like the bondage locks are screw locks like mostly master locks you  can't pick without the use of both hands and locks you can open with feet or mouth are novice locks.

Did read. But it doesn't change anything. It's simply not relevant.

 

As I already stated, an appeal to realism is absurd.

 

Your descriptions of locks are fascinating, but have no bearing in the context of Skyrim. Doubly so in the context of LL Skyrim.

 

 

Even if we wanted to have an argument about what is realistic (rather than fun and interesting), we could not do so, because Skyrim is a fictional construct that is full of holes and inconsistencies, and could not function as a "reality". We cannot reason about it, because it is self-contradictory. And even if it could, the reality of my game in no way resembles the reality of yours. What you say may make sense for you, but not for me.

 

It's great to learn about the history of locks and all that, but whenever somebody makes this kind of argument, it ends the same way.

[Gräfin Zeppelin]

8 hours ago, seanthiar said:

you did not read - that kind of locks we use today were already invented in egypt and china more than 2500years ago. They were not as small as today but sometimes more complicated than the mechanical locks today. The first known and digged out padlock is over 3000 years old. In the dark and middle ages one of the most secure were the screw locks. I think thats comparable to skyrim. Not possible lockpicking them at that time. They were out of cast bronze and because they are moisture resistant used for chastity. That kind of lock - called screwlock was in use until 1900 because it's nearly impossible to lockpick but it's not cheap and therefore not as popular.Easy picked locks wer used for chests for food or other goods. think of it like the bondage locks are screw locks like mostly master locks you  can't pick without the use of both hands and locks you can open with feet or mouth are novice locks.

SLAV unlock with magic - thats another solution and not the same as using feet as hands and if you are bound the bindings often blocks your magic

You are propably right,

I also rolled eyes when my character was sneaking with high heels which I consider to be almost impossible (I cant do that for sure) At one point I however realized I wont run around in peep toes in Skyrim either so.....

[Darkpig]

11 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

kinky outfits that lock themselves on you.

You're thinking of Cursed Loot not the framework lol. Nobody but you equips the devices when using the framework and even then you need the console to get items. Although I'd imagine it would be quite difficult to put on certain devices. I agree with the rest of your points And what do you know it is a video-game. I won't completely disregard the ideas of Seanthar as mods are often inspired from the real world. However this is a framework and thus must be kept simple.

[Lupine00]

3 hours ago, Gräfin Zeppelin said:

sneaking with high heels which I consider to be almost impossible

Again, we're arguing about reality. I can construct "realistic" arguments to justify sneaking in clanky metal slave boots. I won't, because it's a waste of time. (Hint, you need to rethink what sneaking is).

 

Those arguments might make sense for me, in my game. They might seem stupid to you in yours.

 

It's unhelpful to even enter into such arguments. Arguing about what is "realistic" in an unreal setting is fruitless.

 

Arguing about what we like to play, what we find fun, or what improves our immersion, is valid, and can lead to better outcomes, because there we're designing a game, not nit-picking over our beliefs about the history of locks, or whether its possible for people to hear a sound yet ignore it as unthreatening.

 

Personally, if I can look past rubber armbinders, cursed collars and NPCs that give away expensive restraints as "presents", then I can get past a bit of questionable sneaking or lock picking. In practice, I have some serious skill debuffs for those in my game, depending on items - it's something I wanted SLD to be able to do, and it does - but that doesn't mean I think everyone wants those debuffs, let alone total prevention.

 

There are so many bigger suspension-of-disbelief holes in Skyrim, that this stuff ... it just doesn't even register.

 

 

I find far, far more absurd, that somebody can just put a belt on you, or lock you in restraints, without you even being able to resist - when you are a trained warrior and they are a shopkeeper.

 

I also struggle with guards having no concept of self-defence, and being mysteriously unable to arrest an NPC.

 

 

However, when I installed DD, I consented to put aside any complaints about unrealistic items existing, because those items are part of DD. If you do not want them, do not install it. You could install another mod to fix that, or do everything you can to remove non genre-appropriate items from your game, but personally, I don't find it worth the effort.

 

 

The other issues, some came with vanilla Skyrim, and some that come from DCL ... can be disabled quite easily ... but that doesn't stop them being jarring if they are turned on. It's just an example of how what bothers you may not be what bothers me.

 

That's right @Darkpig, most of what I referred to there is from DCL, not DD. But for a lot of people, DD is something they install mainly to get DCL, not something they install because they like to add frameworks they have no use for to their game. For some others, DD is a requirement because of SD+, or a requirements for Devious Followers - but there can't be a lot of people who install DD just for itself - there is always a consumer mod that drives the installation of DD.

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, Darkpig said:

You're thinking of Cursed Loot not the framework lol.

Uh, yes, thanks for that obvious statement. Guess what? I know the difference. And you know I know the difference. I chose to ignore it for purposes of humour. I guess that's also fruitless here.

 

 

Pretty much every mod that depends on DD puts devices on you. That's the point of most of them.

 

And without those mods, DD itself is pointless. You can't disentangle the end purpose from the framework. One doesn't do much without the other.

 

Sure, you could make a mod (such as DDe) where you put the devices on yourself, but DDe by itself serves no purpose other than making screenshots. It contains no gameplay.

And that's all DD without supporting mods is good for too. In fact, Zaz would make more sense in that context, because the entire "locking" mechanic is only meaningful if there's a mod to lock the items on you in a way that is interesting.

[Darkpig]

7 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Uh, yes, thanks for that obvious statement. Guess what? I know the difference. And you know I know the difference. I chose to ignore it for purposes of humour. I guess that's also fruitless here.

 

 

Pretty much every mod that depends on DD puts devices on you. That's the point of most of them.

 

And without those mods, DD itself is pointless. You can't disentangle the end purpose from the framework. One doesn't do much without the other.

 

Sure, you could make a mod (such as DDe) where you put the devices on yourself, but DDe by itself serves no purpose other than making screenshots. It contains no gameplay.

And that's all DD without supporting mods is good for too. In fact, Zaz would make more sense in that context, because the entire "locking" mechanic is only meaningful if there's a mod to lock the items on you in a way that is interesting.

Kinda yes no sorta. I gotta stop saying things in a half joking manner or else people will start thinking of me as an asshole which is a fair assessment but I don't want to be on Ashal's shit list or if I do this would not be it.

 

I feel as if I must right this wrong. However I may end up making this worse. Mods equip devices on you that much we both agree. Cursed Loot equips devices on you or was it that they convinced you to put restraints on yourself? Putting restraints on yourself sounds rather difficult. Whatever the case Cursed loot is the only mod mod that I know where "kinky outfits that lock themselves on you". (And Deviously Enchanted Chests. I totally forgot about that one.)

One final note. Do be careful with the word interesting as it is opinion not fact and thus is subjective.

[Gräfin Zeppelin]

7 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Again, we're arguing about reality. I can construct "realistic" arguments to justify sneaking in clanky metal slave boots. I won't, because it's a waste of time. (Hint, you need to rethink what sneaking is).

 

Those arguments might make sense for me, in my game. They might seem stupid to you in yours.

 

It's unhelpful to even enter into such arguments. Arguing about what is "realistic" in an unreal setting is fruitless.

 

Arguing about what we like to play, what we find fun, or what improves our immersion, is valid, and can lead to better outcomes, because there we're designing a game, not nit-picking over our beliefs about the history of locks, or whether its possible for people to hear a sound yet ignore it as unthreatening.

 

Personally, if I can look past rubber armbinders, cursed collars and NPCs that give away expensive restraints as "presents", then I can get past a bit of questionable sneaking or lock picking. In practice, I have some serious skill debuffs for those in my game, depending on items - it's something I wanted SLD to be able to do, and it does - but that doesn't mean I think everyone wants those debuffs, let alone total prevention.

 

There are so many bigger suspension-of-disbelief holes in Skyrim, that this stuff ... it just doesn't even register.

 

 

I find far, far more absurd, that somebody can just put a belt on you, or lock you in restraints, without you even being able to resist - when you are a trained warrior and they are a shopkeeper.

 

I also struggle with guards having no concept of self-defence, and being mysteriously unable to arrest an NPC.

 

 

However, when I installed DD, I consented to put aside any complaints about unrealistic items existing, because those items are part of DD. If you do not want them, do not install it. You could install another mod to fix that, or do everything you can to remove non genre-appropriate items from your game, but personally, I don't find it worth the effort.

 

 

The other issues, some came with vanilla Skyrim, and some that come from DCL ... can be disabled quite easily ... but that doesn't stop them being jarring if they are turned on. It's just an example of how what bothers you may not be what bothers me.

 

That's right @Darkpig, most of what I referred to there is from DCL, not DD. But for a lot of people, DD is something they install mainly to get DCL, not something they install because they like to add frameworks they have no use for to their game. For some others, DD is a requirement because of SD+, or a requirements for Devious Followers - but there can't be a lot of people who install DD just for itself - there is always a consumer mod that drives the installation of DD.

Thanks for wrtiting this up but I was basically agreeing with you. What I mean (it got somehow lost I guess) that I didnt mind it to much anymore after realizing that it is absurd to run around in high heels in that enviroment in the first place.(which was my own decision)

[DonQuiWho]

Reality?  What's that got to do with anything?  All this nonsense is just tying up bonkers fetishists who could be putting their talented imaginations and abilities to better use.  ?

[Lupine00]

53 minutes ago, Darkpig said:

I feel as if I must right this wrong. However I may end up making this worse. Mods equip devices on you that much we both agree. Cursed Loot equips devices on you or was it that they convinced you to put restraints on yourself? Putting restraints on yourself sounds rather difficult. Whatever the case Cursed loot is the only mod mod that I know where "kinky outfits that lock themselves on you". (And Deviously Enchanted Chests. I totally forgot about that one.)

One final note. Do be careful with the word interesting as it is opinion not fact and thus is subjective.

There are quite a few more. We could probably keep naming them for a while. I'll leave that game for others to enjoy.

[WaxenFigure]

On 7/6/2019 at 9:15 AM, seanthiar said:

no chance - to use a lockpick you have one part you must press in one direction to stop the already picked parts of the lock to fall back in the locked position and with the other hand you sense with the pick which are still moveable and where they "click" to open. That are movements in the area of a micrometer. With one hand you can only "pick" a lock like a warded lock used for roomdoors in flats. But even before christ the egyptians and the chinese got better locks than that with springs, latches, wafers etc. and in the middle ages it was the same. Common doors were locked with a warded lock but if you need more security the locks were sometimes more complicated than today. 

Not to forget in the whole scenario - that women trained it a lifetime - somebody put in shackles is not used to that situation and getting flexible enough and learning that skill with foot and mouth does not happen in a few weeks.

One word: Houdini.

[Kimy]

New DDX development versions for you to test!

 

DDX 4.2 to 4.3 Dev Build 2: CBBE Version

https://mega.nz/#!HMlhjKYB!OlLXPM-AJQ9jQnCFXiVZPkCrvGECm62JGmxVWOC1I-A

 

DDX 4.2 to 4.3 Dev Build 2: UUNP Version

https://mega.nz/#!bN8QyK4A!WQ1gFT6Yzadz-Pf7KY_46TMqfzLBrYTmz5fzmMrbjbY

 

Changes:

Added 100+ color variants (black, red, white) for Tin's rope restraints.

Some ring gags had a missing keyword added that allows drinking and eating.

 

If you already have the 4.2 Dev Build 1 version installed, you can install the new build right over it, if not, install the OFFICIAL 4.2 release first and then the Dev build 2 for the body type you are using.

 

At this point I expect no further additions to either DDI or DDX, so this version is a release candidate! I will give it a bit of time to find bugs, and if nothing is found, I will release 4.3 officially. Have fun testing!