Roleplaying as a weak, helpless girl.

[Slorm]

14 hours ago, woodsman30 said:

So keeping with the OP post there is a simple solution I often use as I never start at level 1..  I start at level 30 or above but have level one stats to start make a even play field..... crappy weapons are no longer used by enemies ect... to do this get hit the ~ click your PC and type setlevel 1000,0,30,150 now you are level 30 as is every one else if for some reason you stats go up just change them much the same way hit ~ type setav health 100 now you have level one health do this for all stats now you have an under-powered PC who really needs help to get by. I do this so followers are more useful and required makes for a better play-though.

I've been thinking about trying this approach for a while, though as I never use followers I would probably to start with a lower level (maybe 15 - 20). I might give it a try when I start a new game

[OH1972]

On 1/30/2019 at 5:08 AM, afa said:

Personally I actually dislike player skill/input dictating too much of the combat. For some crazy strange reason one of the few concepts I liked from Morrowind was the dice roll combat. Regardless if I (the player) can no scope 360 headshot someone from a mile away shouldn't dictate if the PC can accomplish the same feat. When a scenario occurs where movement and terrain dictate combat outcome the player is heavily favored. In an open slug fest stats typically dictates the winner however the rules for these stats are all over the place in Skyrim.

THIS! THIS so much! It's a ROLE PLAYING game! Whether your character can slay a dragon should be based on the capabilities of your character, not on your skills with the mouse!

 

On 1/30/2019 at 5:24 AM, sapho888 said:

I am of the opposite opinion for combat.  Skills can affect ease of combat, but having skills and RNG randomly determining everything about combat turns combat into the lock picking game to get out of Devious Devices.  Now you just have to keep trying till you get a lucky roll.  I would rather more skill/input but if there is something that should be making it more difficult such as withdrawal or restraints, then I would rather have something affect your ability to actually aim.  Screen shake or something like that.  Make me FEEL like it is harder to accomplish a task now.  Give me something to try to accomplish instead of just rolling again and again until the dice gods finally take pity on me.   

But that's precisely the case in combat - if you don't get to make a killing blow in time, then your opponent will get theirs. Striking an effective, damage-dealing blow against an enemy who doesn't want to get hit but wants to hit you isn't trivial and you need skill to do it. 

 

What should be done and what obviously wasn't possible in the Morrowind days was giving feedback through animation what happened - your opponent stepped sideways and so it was just a glancing blow, your strike hit a solidly armored part with insufficient force to faze the wearer etc. What shouldn't happen is that a level 1 character kills a dragon or giant all alone because the player is a master of kiting...

[sapho888]

3 hours ago, OH1972 said:

THIS! THIS so much! It's a ROLE PLAYING game! Whether your character can slay a dragon should be based on the capabilities of your character, not on your skills with the mouse!

 

But that's precisely the case in combat - if you don't get to make a killing blow in time, then your opponent will get theirs. Striking an effective, damage-dealing blow against an enemy who doesn't want to get hit but wants to hit you isn't trivial and you need skill to do it. 

 

What should be done and what obviously wasn't possible in the Morrowind days was giving feedback through animation what happened - your opponent stepped sideways and so it was just a glancing blow, your strike hit a solidly armored part with insufficient force to faze the wearer etc. What shouldn't happen is that a level 1 character kills a dragon or giant all alone because the player is a master of kiting...

You will always need a balance between stats and player skill for a game like Skyrim.  After all, it's a role playing GAME... to emphasize a different word in your quote.  If everything is just a dice roll or stat block, why bother with the Skyrim engine.   I want to play a game where if I choose to, I can heroically kite something that statistically may be stronger than my PC.  That IS my form of roleplaying.  That is how I can out-think an enemy in this relatively limited combat system.  But then I also have the enemies be stronger and faster to compensate.  As mentioned in previous posts in this thread, at its core, Skyrim is an action roleplaying game and to try to move too far away from that sacrifices most of the game's content with little to replace it.  

[woodsman30]

5 hours ago, Slorm said:

I've been thinking about trying this approach for a while, though as I never use followers I would probably to start with a lower level (maybe 15 - 20). I might give it a try when I start a new game

I been doing this as lets face it after you level up to 20 with a regular game you are all but invincible. I start at level 30 that way I am always behind everybody because in my game everyone has no level caps so they are very strong... this way I can use followers because there are a shit load to choose from. This also requires a whole new strategy as charging in a bandit camp will just get you killed lol.

[karlpaws]

13 hours ago, Slorm said:

I've been thinking about trying this approach for a while, though as I never use followers I would probably to start with a lower level (maybe 15 - 20). I might give it a try when I start a new game

 

I'm randomly commenting ideas as I remember them to the post that I'm reading when I do so, but one of the options in SkyTweak is the ability to change what level NPCs show up for the various encounter zones.  Easy zones should have PC Level * 0.66 iirc, but you can put that all the way to x5 or so, if you want. There is a separate level additive for spawned NPCs (I think, might apply to any "leveled with player" types) so you can make everything harder. 

 

I'm not sure how this approach would differ from changing the player's level in terms of boss chest loot (I know increasing the player level would take more experience to level up - another thing you can modify in SkyTweak).  I suppose getting ebony and glass swords "at level 1" is a necessary advantage when you still have level 1 health and magicka.

 

7 hours ago, sapho888 said:

That is how I can out-think an enemy in this relatively limited combat system.  But then I also have the enemies be stronger and faster to compensate.  As mentioned in previous posts in this thread, at its core, Skyrim is an action roleplaying game and to try to move too far away from that sacrifices most of the game's content with little to replace it.  

 

One of the other factors possibly more important in a role playing computer game vs an action shooter or strategy board style game (real time or turn based) is the limits of the AI to deal with terrain.  While it might be more in your role to hide on a ledge and rain sniper fire down in silent arrow shots or extended range rune traps, the AI in Skyrim really can't deal with that too well and doesn't just run and hide like they sensibly should. You can tweak the search time up so they don't say "Oh well, I guess they ran off" after 10 or 20 seconds but that might only mean you have moving targets for longer than not doing so. A total lack of healers and a dearth of healing potion using with out AI and loot fixing mods also contributes to the slow and steady pick off "we're just just actors in a horror movie" action.

 

Kiting can be quite fun too, though plus or minus, unlike in MMORPGs they don't have a set spawn point and leash distance. Are there videos of someone getting a dragon that attacked in the Rift to follow all the way to Solitude? I never looked.  (Unlike a decade plus ago someone taking an end game level enemy from a barren blasted land to a different human capital that also started with an S).

 

7 hours ago, woodsman30 said:

I been doing this as lets face it after you level up to 20 with a regular game you are all but invincible. I start at level 30 that way I am always behind everybody because in my game everyone has no level caps so they are very strong... this way I can use followers because there are a shit load to choose from. This also requires a whole new strategy as charging in a bandit camp will just get you killed lol.

As long as you have AI improvement mods for your followers so they don't screw up your stealth work or have friendly fire toggled somewhat so that your fireball doesn't eliminate your own tank.

[Slorm]

19 hours ago, woodsman30 said:

I been doing this as lets face it after you level up to 20 with a regular game you are all but invincible. I start at level 30 that way I am always behind everybody because in my game everyone has no level caps so they are very strong... this way I can use followers because there are a shit load to choose from. This also requires a whole new strategy as charging in a bandit camp will just get you killed lol.

I think one issue might be the bosses as they will then be really overpowered.

 

One of the main problem (IMV) with Skyrim is that normal enemies are underpowered whereas bosses are overpowered comparatively.

[woodsman30]

25 minutes ago, Slorm said:

I think one issue might be the bosses as they will then be really overpowered.

 

One of the main problem (IMV) with Skyrim is that normal enemies are underpowered whereas bosses are overpowered comparatively.

To a degree yes that is what makes it fun because planning is now everything. Making the right friends to be followers is essential as they will help you survive.... The note about followers is they are high level too again I remove level caps on any follower I have.... so if I start at level 30 any follower will be that with full stats I am the one who is under lol. I not into the weak PC I just found this to be more balanced because Skyrim is wild and dangerous and all things should have the potential of killing you. I play with the Immersive Wenches mods all of them it makes Dark souls seem like a picnic. Everything now comes into play as it never really has before potions, weapons, armor ....throw Frost Fall into the mix and you have a game that will challenge you like no other. This is where every move you make must be planned no longer can you waltz through Skyrim and be the baddest thing out there.

[Slorm]

1 hour ago, woodsman30 said:

To a degree yes that is what makes it fun because planning is now everything. Making the right friends to be followers is essential as they will help you survive.... The note about followers is they are high level too again I remove level caps on any follower I have.... so if I start at level 30 any follower will be that with full stats I am the one who is under lol. I not into the weak PC I just found this to be more balanced because Skyrim is wild and dangerous and all things should have the potential of killing you. I play with the Immersive Wenches mods all of them it makes Dark souls seem like a picnic. Everything now comes into play as it never really has before potions, weapons, armor ....throw Frost Fall into the mix and you have a game that will challenge you like no other. This is where every move you make must be planned no longer can you waltz through Skyrim and be the baddest thing out there.

Hmm, I'll have to think about it and do some tests. I usually play as an archer/assassin/conjuror so I never use followers as they just get in the way. Probably adding say 10 levels might be better for my playstyle so I'll need to experiment a bit

[worik]

22 minutes ago, Slorm said:

I never use followers as they just get in the way

I use followers for that very annoying reason. Only inigo is behaving half way "smart" all others are a pain in my backside.

 

Back to the question of difficulty, I try to raise the bar, that it is almost impossible to get a dungeon or a dragon done alone (deadly dragons).

Only those dungeons with perfect shadows allow me to bring my 90+ sneak and all PerMe sneak perks to bear. Plus I have to be at perfect health (wounds), sober, well rested ... etc ...

That's when I tell my followers to stay back. Faaaaaar back

[xboronx]

I rarely used followers before but since the excellent Devious Followers mod i can't go without a follower ?

[phillout]

On 2/2/2019 at 5:20 PM, OH1972 said:

THIS! THIS so much! It's a ROLE PLAYING game! Whether your character can slay a dragon should be based on the capabilities of your character, not on your skills with the mouse!

 

But that's precisely the case in combat - if you don't get to make a killing blow in time, then your opponent will get theirs. Striking an effective, damage-dealing blow against an enemy who doesn't want to get hit but wants to hit you isn't trivial and you need skill to do it. 

 

What should be done and what obviously wasn't possible in the Morrowind days was giving feedback through animation what happened - your opponent stepped sideways and so it was just a glancing blow, your strike hit a solidly armored part with insufficient force to faze the wearer etc. What shouldn't happen is that a level 1 character kills a dragon or giant all alone because the player is a master of kiting...

 

There are existing mods already that put a lot of emphasis on the character skill. While Requiem really deserves mentioning, YASH does this job even better IMO. 

 

SE version

 

LE version

 

The mod has an extensive description, and if you want to see it in action - I'd advise watching the new SorcererDave's role-playing LP Skyrim SE.

 

 

[Seijin8]

Upvote for YASH.  Great overhaul, very modular.

[Saraniamic]

All of you sound really helpful so maybe y'all can convince me to try a hardcore playthrough. I did one of those once where I played as a weak character and only used daggers and magic but I accidentally power-leveled sneak and was one-shotting most enemies in the game so that save game quickly went in the trash.

The biggest problem with level-skipping to level 20-30 is the fact that most enemies would be able to one-shoot your underleveled character. I am all for a hard playthrough but that sounds frustrating and kind of impossible.

[Saraniamic]

On 1/31/2019 at 2:26 PM, zambkptkn said:

 

Spoiler

 

I've read through this thread and appreciate all the information that can be found here.

 

I'm new to Lovers Lab, and haven't yet used any of its mods. (So far I've just been mapping out the effects, dependencies, and compatibility issues of the ones that sound interesting.) Up til now, I've mainly been doing this sort of build with only Nexus mods.

 

My build is positively light compared to some listed here.

 

Low carry weight is the main method I've been using for ensuring a 'weak' character.

- Console Command - Set CarryWeight to 50.

- SkyTweak - Set so CarryWeight doesn't increase with level

 

I disable Fast Travel, but leave the default carriages available. Fast Travel between major cities isn't something I feel a need to prevent, it is fast travel to and from remote areas that needs o be prevented.

 

For skill advancement, I've lately been starting at zero in almost everything and going with trainer-only advancement.

 

I also use SkyTweak to lower the max sale value of items and increase training costs for Expert and Master trainers. While I always have to rebalance this when I have a significant change in mod loadout, it is usually sufficient for preventing Gold Glut for the early and mid-parts of the game. (Late game Gold Glut is much more difficult to deal with.)

 

Recently, I've added "Investment Price Config". Using this I set the city home prices to max to make them unaffordable. (I also max out the price of horses as well.) I find having a home in a major city to be too much of an advantage. If my character gets one of these, the difficulty lessens dramatically.   Hearthfire home are much less of a problem, because just travelling to and from them opens you up to frequent bandit attacks. (I do max out he cost of adding a carriage to the Hearthfire home.)

 

I have run into a few problems I still haven't solved to my satisfaction.

 

---Fortify Carry Weight Items - When my character finally gets decent at Enchanting, the obvious thing to do is create multiple items to increase Carry Weight. I need a way to deal with this. (This forum came up while I was looking to find a mod that introduced a significant chance of getting robbed/stripped of your equipment.)

 

---Public Crafting Stations - I'd like a mod that kept the player from easily using someone else's crafting stations. Maybe a MCM-configurable rental fee, with unauthorized use being a crime. If the character has to leave the cities and go to some remote location to do their crafting, this hobbles a major possibility of Gold Glut. Particularly when mixed with restricted Carry Weight. (FMEA looks like it might answer this issue with alchemy and enchanting. I'm going to try it soon and see if it can be set to the results I desire. Still need something for smithing though.)

 

---[QUEST] Tag Abuse - Restricting Carry Weight is great, but what happens when your character gets a weightless (and useful) quest item that they can hang onto seemingly forever?  Actually, this hasn't been a huge problem, but it has cropped up as an annoyance a couple of times.

 

---Alchemy Abuse - One I see mentioned a lot in the forums. It hasn't been that big of a deal for me yet, but it is steadily getting worse with each restart. For me, the vanilla alchemy system works well enough - unless the player has outside knowledge of the various ingredients effects. Without outside knowledge, just working out the various effects and combinations keeps alchemy decently limited until you reach past the mid-game and get well into the late-game.  Yet even if I don't consult outside references, just my own memory of previous playthroughs gives my character an immediate boost in alchemy that seriously inflates the earning potential of a newbie alchemist. A boost that gets ever-bigger with every playthrough.

 

What I'd really like here is a mod that (somewhat intelligently) randomized the effects of the various alchemy ingredients, so that the player would need to discover the profitable combinations anew each time they started a new game.

 

---Light Armor - My low Carry Weight heavily discourages the use of heavy armor, but light armor is an issue I've never sufficiently solved. I have mixed feelings about it, as it does come in handy at times when I need extra protection, but I don't want my character to be able to wear it regularly and depend on it. I need to work out some way to introduce added difficulty to its use, while not completely ruining it as an option.

 

 

 

 

Still, its been fun reading about other people's mod loadouts and settings. Very informative. Lots of interesting tricks and mods I never even thought of.

 

Now I just need to work out which ones I want to add.

 

 

I would like to inquire how do you manage to do anything with 50 carry weight. I use survival mods along with weighted gold so 50 carry weight seems impossible to me...

I also recommend getting this. You might find it useful.

For alchemy I would suggest you either roleplay or ask someone to create a mod which requires bottles to create potions which would limit potion spamming.

 

[sapho888]

 I play with around 40-50 carry weight and weighted gold as well.  Basically, it forces you to make choices on what to carry.  You won't be carrying an army's worth of armor and weaponry with you out of dungeon because you need to be carrying food and water as well.  So, either have a companion to help carry stuff or choose what to carry.  Also, I will use backpacks to increase the carry weight to around 90 which can help a bit.   

 

The main issue I've had with low carry weight is that debuffs from various mods can drop your carry weight to zero which pretty much disables your ability to move.  I use SL Survival to maintain a minimum carry weight so that this does not happen.

[Slorm]

22 hours ago, Saraniamic said:

All of you sound really helpful so maybe y'all can convince me to try a hardcore playthrough. I did one of those once where I played as a weak character and only used daggers and magic but I accidentally power-leveled sneak and was one-shotting most enemies in the game so that save game quickly went in the trash.

The biggest problem with level-skipping to level 20-30 is the fact that most enemies would be able to one-shoot your underleveled character. I am all for a hard playthrough but that sounds frustrating and kind of impossible.

Yes you will need to find the right level for your own playstyle.

 

I tend to avoid increasing Health and armour skills, so effectively my character becomes a glass cannon which is appropriate for an archer/conjuror/assassin type figure. Basically when things go wrong (and they often do) be prepared to leg it..... quick--- and I do mean quick

[zambkptkn]

On ‎2‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 5:03 PM, Saraniamic said:

I would like to inquire how do you manage to do anything with 50 carry weight. I use survival mods along with weighted gold so 50 carry weight seems impossible to me...

It gets interesting. Although I don't use weighted gold.

 

Basically I'm limited to, at most, one set of light armor and two weapons. I leave town carrying a near-max amount of supplies. When I get to the dungeon I dump as much as possible into the first chest I get to, and come back to restock as needed. Loot is, by necessity, normally limited to gold, gems, potions, and other extremely light items. (Although having a follower definitely helps, even then I usually can't haul off all that much.)

 

Leaving a dungeon is big decision time. I go back to the first chest and have to decide between loot and supplies. Skimp on supplies and hope to get back to town quickly? Carry a safe amount of supplies and leave even more loot behind? Or is the haul rich enough to risk dumping armor/weapons and running back with only magic for protection and lots more loot? Decisions, decisions.

 

(And as sapho888 said, backpacks help.)

 

 

[karlpaws]

Is there a drawback to using backpacks?  I can understand the cosmetic uses, but why would you NOT use them? Why not just increase your carryweight instead?

 

Do you run the risk of having them stolen and heavy and cheap loot left on you while an enemy leaves with your good stuff? Do they slow you down or take up a slot that something more useful might use instead?

[SmedleyDButler]

15 minutes ago, karlpaws said:

Is there a drawback to using backpacks?  I can understand the cosmetic uses, but why would you NOT use them? Why not just increase your carryweight instead?

 

Do you run the risk of having them stolen and heavy and cheap loot left on you while an enemy leaves with your good stuff? Do they slow you down or take up a slot that something more useful might use instead?

You have to obtain one.

[sapho888]

1 hour ago, karlpaws said:

Is there a drawback to using backpacks?  I can understand the cosmetic uses, but why would you NOT use them? Why not just increase your carryweight instead?

 

Do you run the risk of having them stolen and heavy and cheap loot left on you while an enemy leaves with your good stuff? Do they slow you down or take up a slot that something more useful might use instead?

1 occasional issue I have with backpacks is that they can sometimes bug out with all the SL mods that forcibly disrobe you.  Occasionally my carry weight will double count the backpack's benefits.  This doesn't happen all the time and isn't a huge issue, but it happens enough to be annoying.   Probably due to script lag or something.   I also try to use Backpack containers so that instead of just adding carry capacity, the backpack actually holds the items... so if my loot is stolen by bandits or rapists I actually lose its contents. 

 

Also yes, obtaining and keeping the backpack is part of the fun too    And I don't just increase carry weight because I don't want to be able to carry massive amounts of items to sell.  Part of the reason to play with low carry weight and adding needs is to introduce scarcity of resources to the game.  When you start adding a lot of the SL mods that add other expenses, the scarcity can lead to desperation... which is often my reasoning for why my PC needs to find other, sometimes sexier ways of making gold.  ?

[SkyAddiction]

1 hour ago, sapho888 said:

Part of the reason to play with low carry weight and adding needs is to introduce scarcity of resources to the game.  When you start adding a lot of the SL mods that add other expenses, the scarcity can lead to desperation... which is often my reasoning for why my PC needs to find other, sometimes sexier ways of making gold.  ?

 

That's precisely why my in-game economy is so tight. It's not entirely uncommon for me to have my PC chop wood for sale. Interesting that you managed to balance a low carry weight system - I had enough trouble trying to get it right that I abandoned the idea.

[sapho888]

8 minutes ago, SkyAddiction said:

 

That's precisely why my in-game economy is so tight. It's not entirely uncommon for me to have my PC chop wood for sale. Interesting that you managed to balance a low carry weight system - I had enough trouble trying to get it right that I abandoned the idea.

well, balance is a bit subjective... currently the balance is a bit skewed toward being poor most of the time.  I have to avoid cities because it can be hard to have enough cash to pay to leave (due to the SL Survival).  I also have some mods that add more items that can be stolen from homes... of course, I also have more severe penalties for having bounties and going to prison when caught stealing.  ?

[SkyAddiction]

17 minutes ago, sapho888 said:

well, balance is a bit subjective... currently the balance is a bit skewed toward being poor most of the time.  I have to avoid cities because it can be hard to have enough cash to pay to leave (due to the SL Survival).  I also have some mods that add more items that can be stolen from homes... of course, I also have more severe penalties for having bounties and going to prison when caught stealing.  ?

 

That's kind of what I mean - you've listed a slew of things that form consequences, gameplay loops, and player decisions. Since it's far easier to fix combat, then simply zero out the economy and then restore it a bit, successfully working the extra variable (carry weight) into it is pretty impressive.

 

A lot of people like to complain about Skyrim's various broken systems, but Skyrim was clearly designed to offer maximum choice to the player in a relatively quick playthrough. I highly doubt Beth was anticipating more than 50-80 hours in a dedicated game, and I'd bet they were surprised when people just, well... kept playing. If all you do is play the main quest, pick a side in the war, champion a guild, and end the dragons, the game is actually fairly balanced. All the world detail, the side quests, and the dozens upon dozens of locations are really there for some side exploration to give the player something else to do every so often.

 

Now, those of us who wanted to do something with the enormous remainder of the game, we've had to find ways to patch up and link mechanics outside the core quest/explore/loot/sell/repeat system.

 

So yeah... getting carry weight changes working without becoming nothing more than a continual hindrance is something of an accomplishment. 

[Fuzzy_Fox]

You could try SexLab hormones by DeepBlueFrog. It has a curse in that mod called the bimbo curse and debuffs your skills to the point of them being nearly useless other than speech and pickpocket. The curse also gives you calm illusion spells as well as healing spells that can keep your followers alive in combat. 

[sapho888]

So I mentioned in a previous post that I'm trying out Nether's Follower Framework... I finally got to a point in my game to hire a follower.  In this case it was Marcurio in Riften, a vanilla follower.  But for some reason, SL Survival wasn't recognizing Marcurio as a follower so that I could leave Riften.  I made sure I had the other requirements to leave but when I clicked on the lockbox, it said that I needed an escort to leave the city.   When I spoke with Marcurio, he had all the normal follower dialogues though and NFF's MCM showed him as a follower.

Then I tried uninstalling NFF, cleaned my save of scripts and tried again and was immediately able to leave. 

I tried finding some setting in NFF that would allow SL Survival to see it but I was unsuccessful.  So based on my noobie mod skills, I believe that NFF is incompatible with SL Survival.