Devious Devices - Integration 4.3a (2019-09-10)

[Reesewow]

5 minutes ago, Kimy said:

That, and we'd also blow up the file size with default meshes. DD is already fairly large as is. But the bigger reason is really that it's better something fails in a blatant fashion than subtly. The latter is much harder to diagnose. At least "My stuff is invisible" is a very clear giveaway of what went wrong.

Truth, much harder to diagnose that Bodyslide hasn't been run or is improperly installed when the user has to post a picture of the problem.  Or they just assume the mod isn't very good because it clips everywhere.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Comrade Laura 'Lokomootje' said:

Obnoxiously large text is probably what some people need.

I know it is said on the DDa page and the DCUR page.

But somehow, people still miss it.

Not really, honestly Kimi is 100% right here the ppl having these issues just don't read. Even if you put an Obnoxious text these ppl will still show up i'll guarantee it lol.

 

Savage roast btw but lets be honest bibocus you deserved that one holy crap i feel so bad for the mistreatment kimi gets on this site it hurts me physically.

[Laura]

29 minutes ago, atreyatan said:

Not really, honestly Kimi is 100% right here the ppl having these issues just don't read. Even if you put an Obnoxious text these ppl will still show up i'll guarantee it lol.

 

Savage roast btw but lets be honest bibocus you deserved that one holy crap i feel so bad for the mistreatment kimi gets on this site it hurts me physically.

Yeah you're right, people who don't read instructions will always struggle (and not in a fun way).

[worik]

1 hour ago, Kimy said:

I will really add a really really large and really really colorful Bodyslide!!! logo, plus a link to the app and the guides, next time I update this thread. It's not an unreasonable request.

But just so you know: In Cursed Loot I actually linked to Bodyslide AND listed it in the requirements, and there are still tons of "Help, my stuff is invisible" postings there. I guess people will still blame me for using such a Complicated!™ thing in the first place and then not showing up at their place and installing it for them, for they still can't be bothered to read a page of text, no matter what I do. It's always easier to look for failure anywhere but yourself, I guess.

If, by any means, you manage to get this and the whole DD guidance documentation compressed into 144 charcters, I'm pretty sure: People will read it and you will succeed.

But I'm afraid you won't be able to accomplish that compression rate. So it almost doesn't matter how hard you try 

 

Big red letters? I assume: no, not changing anything.

Next idea (from other mods): Having a numbered FAQ and simply responding to "invisible" with "Installation task #7, FAQ #42" might look efficient in the metrics of a M$ support-to-hell desk but I doubt it will help the helpless DD downloader.

 

RTFM is something that you can't enforce on people, even if you print it out and slash the unread page a hundred times in their face. I tried! (Well, probably I wasn't hitting them hard enough? Need to work on my kiai)

 

And we always need to keep in mind that many downloaders are far away from fluent english (e.g. me) and their understanding too often relies on www.dopey-translate.crap (tm) and similar!

That in mind, irony and much other funny stuff to highlight important bits is probably lost in translation anyway.

 

What could help? 

I guess, if we want to stay helpful we have to rewrite the same stuff over and over again  for the I-refuse-to-read-faction and we have to rephrase it for the english-not-so-good-faction.

 

 

[Guest]

Just now, Comrade Laura 'Lokomootje' said:

Yeah you're right, people who don't read instructions will always struggle (and not in a fun way).

I wouldn't be saying that if i haven't experienced it first hand most of my comments are from helping people in the technical support forums and so many headaches they are experiencing is from the lack of reading. Like someone downloading 3 pregnancy mods without a care if they're compatible its almost like they have self control issues haha.

 

I don't mind them struggling lifes hard for people who don't want to work at it, but for someone to go out of their way to blame someone for their issues..whoa now that just irritates me.

 

Also i haven't ever said it but i really like your avatar ever time i see it i am compelled to steal it and use it as my own xD.. i wont but thats how much i like it.

[Laura]

4 minutes ago, atreyatan said:

I wouldn't be saying that if i haven't experienced it first hand most of my comments are from helping people in the technical support forums and so many headaches they are experiencing is from the lack of reading. Like someone downloading 3 pregnancy mods without a care if they're compatible its almost like they have self control issues haha.

 

I don't mind them struggling lifes hard for people who don't want to work at it, but for someone to go out of their way to blame someone for their issues..whoa now that just irritates me.

 

Also i haven't ever said it but i really like your avatar ever time i see it i am compelled to steal it and use it as my own xD.. i wont but thats how much i like it.

I noticed that too.

It is mostly people who didn't read the instructions correctly.

 

I don't mind people who get confused and need help.

I'm glad to help them.

But, blaming the mod creator because they didn't read the instructions puts me on tilt.

 

And please don't steal my avatar .

 

It's Katarina from League of Legends by the way.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Comrade Laura 'Lokomootje' said:

I noticed that too.

It is mostly people who didn't read the instructions correctly.

 

I don't mind people who get confused and need help.

I'm glad to help them.

But, blaming the mod creator because they didn't read the instructions puts me on tilt.

 

And please don't steal my avatar .

 

It's Katarina from League of Legends by the way.

 

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agreed, I wont I swear haha i really like her look though. 

[WaxenFigure]

2 hours ago, Reesewow said:

...

 

Technically bringing back some form of default meshes would probably help mitigate the invisible item posts, but I imagine a portion of those would be replaced by people complaining that stuff doesn't fit.

I once suggested a default mesh that said in letters all over the actor, "You forgot to run Bodyslide".

 

Of course the people who don't read the ordinary type and who cannot be bothered to perform a search will also ignore giant red letters.  The proof is in the other mods where that's already been tried and people still ask the same question that's answered in the big red text.

 

 

[worik]

6 minutes ago, WaxenFigure said:

I once suggested a default mesh that said in letters all over the actor, "You forgot to run Bodyslide".

+1

Most obvious help that I could ever imagine

[tuxagent7]

5 hours ago, Comrade Laura 'Lokomootje' said:

While this is getting a bit mean.

I do agree that it could help a lot of people if Bodyslide was highlighted even more.

It could certainly relieve us from the frequent: It is invisible pls hlp!

No it wouldnt, honestly i think they wouldnt because they dont always take the time to read completely, to inform themselve, to google search.

 

 

 

 

[Laura]

2 minutes ago, tuxagent7 said:

No it wouldnt, honestly i think they wouldnt because they dont always take the time to read completely, to inform themselve, to google search.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, I realise that now.

People who don't read still won't see it.

I was hopeful and naive.

[tuxagent7]

And honestly, i am still a newbie here on loverlabs but i read a lot of the forums and i dont get the mistreatment of Kimy by some members here

 

She's helpful, give feedback, make some good stuff to play with skyrim, working hard for users

 

Why trying to take words or a sentence and try to turn it on her ?

[tuxagent7]

6 minutes ago, Comrade Laura 'Lokomootje' said:

I was hopeful and naive.

Stay positive we need more people like you in this big big world

[WaxenFigure]

Just for fun Barrel Outfit-11768-Modified.7zI modified the ancient Barrel Outfit mod (open permissions so is ok to use).

 

This mesh could be copied in place of every default bodyslide mesh and it would  should be abundantly clear what needs to be done.

 

Changed "would" to "should" because some people will still not comprehend.

 

Honestly, I don't expect the team to use this because it would take a shitload of work just to copy it to all the locations taking away time they could be spending on something worthwhile but at least we can humor ourselves with the thought of it.

[JuliusXX]

4 hours ago, WaxenFigure said:

Just for fun Barrel Outfit-11768-Modified.7zI modified the ancient Barrel Outfit mod (open permissions so is ok to use).

 

This mesh could be copied in place of every default bodyslide mesh and it would  should be abundantly clear what needs to be done.

 

Changed "would" to "should" because some people will still not comprehend.

 

Honestly, I don't expect the team to use this because it would take a shitload of work just to copy it to all the locations taking away time they could be spending on something worthwhile but at least we can humor ourselves with the thought of it.

It would be fun to read all the posts complaining that my character is wearing a barrel 

[nurso12]

15 hours ago, Reesewow said:

Unfortunately I don't think we'll ever be completely rid of people posting about invisible items.  Not unless someone programs Skyrim to refuse to load until items have been built, and instead give a giant popup with instructions.  But then the posts will be about how Skyrim won't load and is giving this weird popup.

 

Just a google search for "Devious Devices Invisible" gives a stack of results explaining what the problem is, so I have a hard time accepting that a bigger font for the requirement would make much of a difference in those cases.  Even if someone actually got confused by it not currently being in the requirements section (despite being a requirement in DDA), the installation instructions make it perfectly clear that Bodyslide is required.  Obviously the oversight should be remedied and more clarity is better, plus some of the links need to be fixed up.  Some people simply refuse to read or do a minimum amount of research and will resort to asking for help (sometimes rudely) when they mess up because of it.

 

Technically bringing back some form of default meshes would probably help mitigate the invisible item posts, but I imagine a portion of those would be replaced by people complaining that stuff doesn't fit.

 

[nurso12]

Firstly I tried to help you see why people keep asking about it, because for someone like me who has sorvior medical Issues, who is handicapped, using Bodyslide isnt possible, So i hoped you would see that forcing someonne to use an clearly optional Tool is rather stupid, especially if it leads too more problems than it solves, because of this questiions will keep popping up.

Secondly its not explained in an easy Guidelike Fashion fot people who have no modding skills, and/or are not able to use such Tools.

Thirdly i was nagging you because you wrote "Use Bodyslide" and "Bodyslide is for a Reason a Requirement"  while its clearly not, so stop yelling at people for things they didnt mess up. And yeah it is an Requirement of a required Mod and theirfore a Requirement of yours, which you again didnt point out, but what is confusing is that its not a Requirement here and there, but it is there and there. DDI's Thread seemed more up to date, so you might think its not a Requirement at all, and eventough if you installed it because you have seen it as an Requirement, what i did youst to be safe, i installed evrything in the correct order, you still wont actually know how to use it. And forgive me if i dont have read the whole Thread oif DDA,DDX again, only this one, because i trusted that people actually now what they are doing...

Fourthly why make the Dependence on a single Bodytype a given? Why dont you make it an Overlay or something, im no Mod creator, but that seems to lead to less Problems. and i can recall back in the day Mods used to be like that, you didnt have to use Caliente or Unp if you dont wanted to, why would you force people to use it now...?

 

"Unfortunately I don't think we'll ever be completely rid of people posting about invisible items.  Not unless someone programs Skyrim to refuse to load until items have been buil..." Or you are builduing them yourself and dont let us do your work... Explanation:We=Uers(They use stuff) You=Creator(They create stuff).

 

Hers a little Story i call "The endless Google™ Loop"

 "...Yust a Google™ search for "Devious Devices Invisible."..." ... *Ah i found something that looks promissing.* *Its called DDI lets read it.* *Oh i shold simply use Google™ ... *Ah i found something that looks promissing.* *Its called DDI lets read it.* *Oh i shold simply use Google™ ... *Ah i found something that looks promissing.* *Its called DDI lets read it.* *Oh i shold simply use Google™ ...

to be continued

 

Or saying it so that evryone can understand it, "Use Google" is not helping at all. Its like saying i cant help you but im sure others might, you just have to find them yourself, If someone would be able to find an sufficient Solution via the google search do you really think he would bother dealling with people like you...

 

 

 

12 hours ago, tuxagent7 said:

Stay positive we need more people like you in this big big world

 

[Reesewow]

32 minutes ago, nurso12 said:

Hers a little Story i call "The endless Google™ Loop"

 "...Yust a Google™ search for "Devious Devices Invisible."..." ... *Ah i found something that looks promissing.* *Its called DDI lets read it.* *Oh i shold simply use Google™ ... *Ah i found something that looks promissing.* *Its called DDI lets read it.* *Oh i shold simply use Google™ ... *Ah i found something that looks promissing.* *Its called DDI lets read it.* *Oh i shold simply use Google™ ...

to be continued

If I type "Devious Devices Invisible" into Google:

 

The #1 set of links I get is from Loverslab, and includes this link - https://www.loverslab.com/topic/83872-body-invisible-when-using-devious-devices/.  The first reply to that post explains that Bodyslide is required.

 

The #2 set of links is from reddit - https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/6taalr/almost_all_devious_devices_invisible/ - the reply to this topic also explains that Bodyslide is required.

 

I don't see how you are getting this "endless loop" idea.  The reason people ask for others to do some research/reading before they ask questions is because otherwise the same question gets asked over and over and over.  Those links above are mostly from mid-late 2017, and the answers have not changed.

[nurso12]

The endless Loop happens if the answer to this Question will always be "Use Goggle", thats why the answer is not only not helpful its actively bad and stupid. Furthermore explanations like use Bodyslide are just dealing with the what part not the how part. "How are you drawing such incredible Art?" "You should use a Pancil." Now if you go on searching you can find Videos that do actually explaind how to use Bodyslide, but that doesnt help people who have not the means/abilities that are needed. All i want is some workarounds/presets so you dont have to deal with Bodyslide.That Tool is fine for people who want/can use it, not for me and a few others ,i aussume if i read some of the posts in this thread, So torcing people to your opinion is never the right Solution.

[Laura]

12 minutes ago, nurso12 said:

The endless Loop happens if the answer to this Question will always be "Use Goggle", thats why the answer is not only not helpful its actively bad and stupid. Furthermore explantions like use Bodyslide are just dealing with the what part not the how part. Now if you go on searching you can find Videos that do actually explaind how to use Bodyslide, but that doesnt help people who have not the means/abilities that are needed. 

 

We've already given multiple examples of google links with clear instruction for Bodyslide.

There is no such thing as a Bodyslide help loop.

 

It is not stupid to point people to good guides that already exist through google.

It is stupid to blame the mod creator for your inability to use google.

 

Like I said before, It gets a bit annoying that people post the same question over and over again.

But we're happy to help those who ask normally.

But we don't like it when someone calls others stupid because that someone doesn't know how to follow instructions.

 

EDIT:

Bodyslide isn't hard to use.

You don't have to be an artist to use it.

You only need to install it and click and handfull of buttons.

[Laura]

I just made this.

 

 

We can post this .jpg whenever someone needs it.

If you think it is good enough ofcourse.

[nurso12]

If i would create this Mod i would put three things in the 1. Post. 1. "Requirements:Bodyslide" 2."Installation:A short guide on how to use Bodyslide for Beginners."  3.FAQ:Q:How do i use Bodyslide to make my DD stuff visible? A:See the instruction in the Installation, and here are Links to some other GUides. Link" Such things would safe you a loooot of stupid QUestions like this and you wouldnt have to deal with people like me...

 

"Bodyslide isn't hard to use." That is totally subjective, so i cant even answer to that. Good for you?

"You don't have to be an artist to use it."  You dont have to, but it helps if u are atleast  able to see right i aussume. Like i said im handicapped. For example my Eyesight is less than 2%. SO stop saying how easy it is and give me solutions i can use?

You only need to install it and click and handfull of buttons. "I have opened in the Background inside my MO, i dont understand a lot of stuff , for example what are groups in Bodyslide, which of the 100+ Bodys i have to Modify, how do i actually do that, do i have to adjust evry of the round 50 sliders and what is the pupose of doing it anyhow, why would any of this make my Char visible again? I stop here, eventough there are a lot more questions, but i dont think you have the hours to explain this to me and evryone single handetly, thats why there not only should be, but more has to be an explanation in the first post.

[Laura]

9 minutes ago, nurso12 said:

If i would create this Mod i would put three things in the 1. Post. 1. "Requirements:Bodyslide" 2."Installation:A short guide on how to use Bodyslide for Beginners."  3.FAQ:Q:How do i use Bodyslide to make my DD stuff visible? A:See the instruction in the Installation, and here are Links to some other GUides. Link" Such things would safe you a loooot of stupid QUestions like this and you wouldnt have to deal with people like me...

 

"Bodyslide isn't hard to use." That is totally subjective, so i cant even answer to that. Good for you?

"You don't have to be an artist to use it."  you dont have to but it helps if u are atlest are able so see right i aussume. Like i said im handicapped. For example my Esight is less than 2%. SO stop saying how easy it is and give me solutions i can use?

You only need to install it and click and handfull of buttons. "I have opened in the Background inside my MO, i dont understand a lot of stuff , for example what are groups in Bodyslide, which of the 100+ Bodys i have to Modify, how do i actually do that, do i have to adjust evry of the round 50 sliders and what is the pupose of doing it anyhow, why would any of this make my Char visible again? I stop here, eventough there are a lot more questions, but i dont think you have the hours to explain this to me and evryone single handetly, thats why there not only should be, but more has to be an explanation in the first post.

If you told us that you need some extra help because you're handicapped, we would've helped you.

But I hope you understand that insulting those who you need help from isn't a good idea.

 

By the way, I just made this.

I hope this helps.

[bicobus]

1 hour ago, nurso12 said:

Firstly I tried to help you see why people keep asking about it, because for someone like me who has sorvior medical Issues, who is handicapped, using Bodyslide isnt possible, So i hoped you would see that forcing someonne to use an clearly optional Tool is rather stupid, especially if it leads too more problems than it solves, because of this questiions will keep popping up.

As long as you are aware that bodyslide is required, a "how to use bodyslide" on google might lead you to gopher's video. Bodyslide function the same way for both Fallout 4 and skyrim (same engine for both game).

 

1 hour ago, nurso12 said:

Secondly its not explained in an easy Guidelike Fashion fot people who have no modding skills, and/or are not able to use such Tools.

You fall into the 5% category kimy don't care about, so it's a dead end for you. Sorry.

 

16 hours ago, WaxenFigure said:

I once suggested a default mesh that said in letters all over the actor, "You forgot to run Bodyslide".

 

Of course the people who don't read the ordinary type and who cannot be bothered to perform a search will also ignore giant red letters.  The proof is in the other mods where that's already been tried and people still ask the same question that's answered in the big red text.

It's not always a lack of reading, but a lack of understanding. The whole reason knowledge bases exists in the IT world is to have a place where most help can be found. Having access to a KB allows anybody to link to it if a layman were to ask a question, which allow for a "read the manual" answer. There will always be people who ask the dumbest question, and that comes from a lack of understanding about what to do. Here the issue isn't even that, the issue is that people are expected to infer what they are supposed to do from a somewhat limited explanation, and when they don't understand they get slammed with "you're stupid, I don't care.". Apparently, I'm a moron for pointing that out.

 

So no, it's not difficult to run bodyslide. What is difficult is to process an ungodly amount of information, especially for individuals who rarely mod their games. DD is only one mod, and the user needs to read and understand every single mod description he/she is required to use and that is not easy - especially when some mods have non-advertised features, stuff that exists but weren't properly explained. Modding can become confusing real quick, and confused people tends to ask real stupid questions.

 

And for people who come here and say "I don't understand why X is required, it's stupid!", I would answer "I'm sorry you feel that way, but it will remain there because we need that tool. We have compiled several tutorial to help you. Take your time and don't hesitate to ask questions.".

[nurso12]

The little Guide in the Pictures is quite helpful, but it would be more helpful if it wasn't embedded in a Picture, so you can see the Text better. Anyhow if i do understand that correctly i have to do that for evry item and/or body? Wtf seriosly? Thanks but no thanks. I dont do the Mod Creators work.

 

I didn't say anything about being handicapped because that shouldn't matter, i simply can't use the Tool, but theire are more People wo alsp can't/don't want to use it, and are owerwhelmed by all of this for their own reasons.

 

2 hours ago, nurso12 said:

Secondly its not explained in an easy Guidelike Fashion fot people who have no modding skills, and/or are not able to use such Tools.

You fall into the 5% category kimy don't care about, so it's a dead end for you. Sorry.

 

You get that wrong, Dead Ends dont exist for me there is alyways a solution for me, if not i will create one... And nothing, noone will stand in my way, if they do they will soon regret it.