The History and Eminent Imminent Doom of Free Game Modding.

[TheWilloughbian]

So, I was looking about on the web for info on mod manager version that might be available around the web, or info on what setting there might be to do the manual style build. It's just a lot easier for me to do it that way for the purposes of mod building. I know what I'm doing well enough that I don't really need it to do anything but place the files where I want them and not touch it unless I say so. I was a little surprised how much hostility there was toward anyone I had seen even ask the question.

 

I started modding during the first gen xbox days. Back then there were four PC gaming companies that I really feel did the most to get game modding going. Lucas Arts (RIP) BioWare, Bethesda and have to give Unreal some credit too. Back then all the PC version of Star Wars games came with Dev tools. In fact KOTOR was the first one I saw that did not. But games the game Neverwinter Knights was the game that really got me into it. I dabbled in Morrwind a bit but had played it so much on xbox that i was sort of played out on the game. They had just released Better Bodies at the time. Now i enjoy modding Skyrim SE.

 

I always felt the reason the Game Studios did this was to recruit talent. I remember back then BioWare hired the one guy that made the King Maker mod. Back then being a game developer was very much some cowboy shit. The World Wide Web was the wild west back then with very little regulation. Where now people faun over you, if you tell them you make video games for a living, back then they told you to get a real job.

 

Many of the Mod hosting sites that were hosting mods back then still exist today. Wich brings us to.....

 

Nexus Mods.

 

Hugely successful and in truth has done a great deal to expand the community of game modding. The numbers they show for the amount of downloads is very impressive. It goes without saying the CEOs and shareholders of the companies the own the games with numbers in the realm of 5 billion total said to themselves "well if i had a nickle...". 

 

Which brings me back to the reasons for there being an unwillingness to allow people to mod the way I was hoping to do it. I see things like creation club and vortex as a way to reign it in. I honestly am expecting that gen of "moddable" games will be designed in such a way that they can only be modded though an "authorized" mod manager and the you will not be permited to alter the actual game files as we have been to this point. Presenting altering the game files as "the wrong way to do it" and make a taboo of it seems to serve this end.

 

hope that wasn't too long winded

 

Part of my reason for looking for such information and utility is my hard drive died and I need to do a rebuild from my back up.

 

Thanks for reading,

The Willoughbian

[Guest]

Modding for Bethesda games was destroyed by the parlor model. The content making up the "impressive numbers" is usually small tweaks, utility mods, body presets, bikinis and retextures. There is barely any expansive content being released these days. In fact, I don't remember any expansion for Skyrim released in 2020 and 2021, except for the one I've made myself, and that is not released due to the parlor model and the lack of similar content for paying it off. 

 

During the discussions about deletions in the Nexus, I felt some relief when I noticed my opinion was shared by people outside of the Bethesda modding "community". The real world does not work like parlor modding does, which explains the growing hostility between players and parlor modders.

 

I don't even look for mods anymore, because it is always the same repetitive, boring stuff, and always using "vanilla resources" because, you know, any author can change his permissions in the Nexus after throwing a fit, compromising those who are using his work as a resource. The Nexus permission system probably destroyed dozens of projects in the past, before I started modding Skyrim in 2019. Imagine what we could have today if parlor modding didn't dominate the scene. 

 

It is dead, it is over. Even if you enforce open-source it will not bring it back, as many mod authors have departed. There is also the constant monetization coming from corporations, which adds fuel to the fire, turning a hobby into a corporate enterprise. 

[Pamatronic]

19 hours ago, TheWilloughbian said:

Which brings me back to the reasons for there being an unwillingness to allow people to mod the way I was hoping to do it.

Nothing stops you from NOT using a mod manager. if you know what you are doing, stuff will work just fine when doing it manually.

But unless you are a massive masochist, you will be using one because its just so much more convenient. I myself prefer MO2, but I also use vortex for oldrim (because it launches faster).

When i started with modding, I also did stuff manually and later movend on to NMM, but the moment you have 2 mods that overwrite the same file, you´ll be running into issues. namely when trying to remove something or installing stuff in the wrong order.

Again, you don't need an Organizer, but that's like saying you don't need a GUI for working with a computer.

 

19 hours ago, TheWilloughbian said:

I was a little surprised how much hostility there was toward anyone I had seen even ask the question.

As described above, Its really difficult for most people to understand why anyone would handicap themselves like that.

But it might also have something to do with people posting the same problems in the support threads over and over. Problems that could have easily avoided by using a manager.

[pinky6225]

Wasnt this tried in mass effect 3 where there was a file you had to update with the new file name/sizes otherwise you'd crash and peeps just got around it as someone made a tool to do that for you

[Grey Cloud]

The word you are looking for is "imminent" not "eminent".

[Alessia Wellington]

31 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

The word you are looking for is "imminent" not "eminent".

 

Eminem?

[Gukahn]

3 minutes ago, Alessia Wellington said:

Eminem?

[Grey Cloud]

[Tlam99]

Spoiler

 

I don't need a mod manager

[Grey Cloud]

On 2/8/2022 at 8:20 PM, TheWilloughbian said:

hope that wasn't too long winded

No, just complete and utter tripe from start to finish.

 

On 2/8/2022 at 8:20 PM, TheWilloughbian said:

I know what I'm doing well enough that I don't really need it to do anything but place the files where I want them and not touch it unless I say so.

?

 

On 2/8/2022 at 8:20 PM, TheWilloughbian said:

The World Wide Web was the wild west back then with very little regulation.

?

 

On 2/8/2022 at 8:20 PM, TheWilloughbian said:

I see things like creation club and vortex as a way to reign it in.

? and ?

[steelpanther24]

Yesterday wasn't always good and tomorrow ain't as bad as it seems.

 

We have had threads similar to this one in the past, discussion the death of modding for a variety of reasons.    Most are true to some extent, but until game companies start prosecuting modders publicly, there will be a scene.  

 

Now specific to the reason that you cited, your approach does seem a bit different, much like making tomato paste at home.  Sure it might be a bit more healthy, and may not have as much sugar as store bought, but the time to quality ratio is ........small.   For some, sure they will do it.  For others, nope not worth it.   

 

The issues with Nexus has been an ongoing issue, but, much like every one that gets big and silly, others start up (though may not survive) to take its place.  For FO4 there is https://buriedmods.blogspot.com/

 

As long as computer game companies use UNREAL and/or UNITY, there will be game mods.  We may go back into an era that you recall (I modded my GTA VC) that requires knowledge of coding and patience.

[TheWilloughbian]

8 hours ago, Wolfstorm321 said:

Modding for Bethesda games was destroyed by the parlor model. The content making up the "impressive numbers" is usually small tweaks, utility mods, body presets, bikinis and retextures. There is barely any expansive content being released these days. In fact, I don't remember any expansion for Skyrim released in 2020 and 2021, except for the one I've made myself, and that is not released due to the parlor model and the lack of similar content for paying it off. 

 

During the discussions about deletions in the Nexus, I felt some relief when I noticed my opinion was shared by people outside of the Bethesda modding "community". The real world does not work like parlor modding does, which explains the growing hostility between players and parlor modders.

 

I don't even look for mods anymore, because it is always the same repetitive, boring stuff, and always using "vanilla resources" because, you know, any author can change his permissions in the Nexus after throwing a fit, compromising those who are using his work as a resource. The Nexus permission system probably destroyed dozens of projects in the past, before I started modding Skyrim in 2019. Imagine what we could have today if parlor modding didn't dominate the scene. 

 

It is dead, it is over. Even if you enforce open-source it will not bring it back, as many mod authors have departed. There is also the constant monetization coming from corporations, which adds fuel to the fire, turning a hobby into a corporate enterprise. 

 

Reading this I do recall the transition. It was the day that Metalica pitched a fit when they were downloading music on nabster and found their brand new album there. XD Not that I don't think the internet should be completely unregulated, but yes, it does seem the sentiment of "hey I made this resource and I donate it to the public domain" has seen better days. I appreciate the incite. Thank you.

 

2 hours ago, Grey Cloud said:

The word you are looking for is "imminent" not "eminent".

 

Thanks : ) though in a strange way both apply XD we'll just have to use both : )

 

6 hours ago, Pamatronic said:

Nothing stops you from NOT using a mod manager. if you know what you are doing, stuff will work just fine when doing it manually.

But unless you are a massive masochist, you will be using one because its just so much more convenient. I myself prefer MO2, but I also use vortex for oldrim (because it launches faster).

When i started with modding, I also did stuff manually and later movend on to NMM, but the moment you have 2 mods that overwrite the same file, you´ll be running into issues. namely when trying to remove something or installing stuff in the wrong order.

Again, you don't need an Organizer, but that's like saying you don't need a GUI for working with a computer.

 

As described above, Its really difficult for most people to understand why anyone would handicap themselves like that.

But it might also have something to do with people posting the same problems in the support threads over and over. Problems that could have easily avoided by using a manager.

 

This correct. There are just certain conveniences to something that operates in the fasion NMM does/did alongside manual installation when tinkering the way I like to do. I don't really even play the game anymore. I just like eye candy and building sets in the CK for screenshots. For my purposes Wrye Bash and an old build of NMM will do. 

 

And yes I am very much a masochist. I think everyone here would enjoy my dungeon. : ) 

 

54 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

No, just complete and utter tripe from start to finish.

 

?

 

?

 

? and ?

 

 

It just seemed that vortex was actively trying to prevent me from what I was trying to do and was somewhat resentful and very stoned when I wrote that.  I'm insinuating there is collusion between Bethesda and Nexus to stop me from modding the game I purchased as I wish. XD 

 

I guess I was a little sad to see the state of some things after a couple years away from modding. I came here because I've always enjoyed my interactions with people on this site. Had good times here when SMP first came out for SSE. I got into other things shortly after and wasn't really doing anything with modding. I figured no one would mind if I were to speak a bit of my experience with game modding and ask about some of the attitudes I came across, when looking for a bit of info on what mod management utilities would best suit my needs. 

 

I am pleased to say I managed to get my backup of the installation I was trying to save, up and running. Wrye Bash did the trick. That set the load order from the save button was a life saver. 

[27X]

8 hours ago, Wolfstorm321 said:

parlor model.

 

Abject lie.

 

Modding has actually increased in non-supported games, particularly in asian territories. What you're actually trying to passively aggressively insinuate is there is no community around you, and since you've been trying this tack and tact since Oblivion days, it's pretty clear you simply don't have the skills to make it happen, and your constant tinfoil tirade about the THEM and THEY very likely tipping your actual hand well in advance. Small wonder no one wants to collaborate.

 

On 2/8/2022 at 1:20 PM, TheWilloughbian said:

 

I started modding during the first gen xbox days

 

As someone whom started in the apple IIe days, modding hasn't gone anywhere, nor will it. The core is altering a title to better fit the needs or wants of a user, nothing more or less. The socialization or commodification of that premise is simply window dressing based on entirely subjective tenets and tendencies. Contrary to bullshit posted above, clique and private modding has been a thing since MUD days and still will be well after everyone on this site has died of old age. The only actual benchmark is pervasiveness and effectiveness which have already waxed and waned four times since PC gaming has been any kind of thing.

 

Monetization and commoditization aren't even kind of new, and smart folks were wise to shit like Nexus since day one. All you're dealing with is the amount thereof.

[TheWilloughbian]

The past few years I got back into console gaming and then MMOs. I was at a point where I just wanted to play and not care one bit about the inner workings of it. The Hard drive dying on my PC was probably a good thing as I had needed a fresh install of windows for a while XD A couple people recently reached out to me about some of the screens I posted and it made me want to have a look and see what could be done as maybe a modder's resource it not an actual mod. Mostly at the time I made this skyrim build I was just converting whatever assets I liked to work with the game. So, I think don't that I have the same perspective of modding that some people do. I don't know the first thing about coding and if you saw the ridiculous methods I used to do a great deal of these conversions, I'm sure you would be laughing your asses off. Like running obj files through blender then an older build of nifskope, then bodyslide (and these are statics, not armors btw), then through a newer version of nifskope, then through chunkmerge. Even now I'm lamenting the fact i still have to find all that stuff XD

[fishburger67]

5 hours ago, Grey Cloud said:

No, just complete and utter tripe from start to finish.

You are such an ass.  Why do you constantly have to be so rude?

[WanderLustRedux]

Manual modding is an exercise in pain when it comes to bethsoft games as many files will overwrite each other. Let's say you have file A, overwritten by mod B. Then, you decide you want to try mod C, which also overwrites file A. You decide you don't like mod C, so you uninstall by deleting the files that mod C included. Guess what? Now your game is borked and you have to reinstall entirely. Mod managers like Vortex and Mod Organizer aren't an attempt to rein in modding, they're an attempt to solve fundamental issues with bethsoft modding and large load orders. If you don't like Vortex, try Mod Organizer 2 maybe. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, 27X said:

Abject lie.

 

Modding has actually increased in non-supported games, particularly in asian territories. What you're actually trying to passively aggressively insinuate is there is no community around you, and since you've been trying this tack and tact since Oblivion days, it's pretty clear you simply don't have the skills to make it happen, and your constant tinfoil tirade about the THEM and THEY very likely tipping your actual hand well in advance. Small wonder no one wants to collaborate.

 

 

The world outside your "community" disagree with you. It is up to you to prove that I'm lying. 

And you probably are mistaken me for someone else. I didn't make mods in Oblivion days. 

Get used to the THEM and THEY, because I will do it when I see the opportunity. Skyrim modding is dead and parlor modding killed it. 

[TheWilloughbian]

Quote

Manual modding is an exercise in pain when it comes to bethsoft games as many files will overwrite each other. Let's say you have file A, overwritten by mod B. Then, you decide you want to try mod C, which also overwrites file A. You decide you don't like mod C, so you uninstall by deleting the files that mod C included. Guess what? Now your game is borked and you have to reinstall entirely. Mod managers like Vortex and Mod Organizer aren't an attempt to rein in modding, they're an attempt to solve fundamental issues with bethsoft modding and large load orders. If you don't like Vortex, try Mod Organizer 2 maybe. 

 

Well... that's the thing, these are custom files I am using and not part of any mod. Like, I would install a mod and then overwrite the files with my files. Or in the case of a mod I made for myself it wouldn't ever be put into a zip. I would just put the file where they go and activate my plugin.

 

I'm wondering how many people that prefer the virtual install are people that like mods that have a lot of leveled lists. I didn't really care for the advent of them in Oblivion so I tend to avoid them or not make them part of my permanent load order. I just leave them installed long enough to play the mod though and then go back to the save before it was installed. However, I can definitely see why people using things like spell overhauls combined with say a dungeon loot one, wouldn't want to do things the way I do.

 

Like with animations for instance, I'll just manually swap out the ones I want to try and run FNIS from my desktop short cut. Won't even use a mod manager for something like that if there is no esp involved. Same with custom textures and meshes. Mind you, what I am running isn't really a playthrough build. It more serves as my asset collection for building purposes. 

 

point of interest... I backed that folder up like 3 months before the HD crashed XD

 

[RohZima]

3 hours ago, Wolfstorm321 said:

 

 

The world outside your "community" disagree with you. It is up to you to prove that I'm lying. 

And you probably are mistaken me for someone else. I didn't make mods in Oblivion days. 

Get used to the THEM and THEY, because I will do it when I see the opportunity. Skyrim modding is dead and parlor modding killed it. 

 

I think skyrim is just old and people are bored of it. It's obsolete.

 

Parlor model? You mean like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/2tyf2n/parlor_vs_cathedral_modding_something_every/

 

 

I just had to google that cause I've never heard it. If that, then - no way. You are miles off. Practically all the great mods are the result of a single labor of love with some contribution but the vision comes from a single source.

 

I can't even think of a single example to support your argument unless you mean generic mods like hair packs that add hair models/textures from different artists.

 

[Grey Cloud]

8 hours ago, fishburger67 said:

You are such an ass.  Why do you constantly have to be so rude?

Your first words are to call me an ass and then you ask me why I am rude. Note that my comment was about what was written not the person who wrote it.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, RohZima said:

Practically all the great mods are the result of a single labor of love with some contribution but the vision comes from a single source.

 

 

And these are in the past. The decline was felt four years after the model was adopted in the Nexus (which was in 2016, when they implemented the permissions system). 

Since then mod authors have two issues with their releases: first, the fear of the possibility of their mods being taken down, with the accusation of "thievery" (even with asset authors being credited), and second, the fear of having their work monetized by a third party, who didn't contribute to their work, and make money off their backs. The result is that mod authors will only release very small tweaks and that's it. 

And of course, I'm talking about Bethesda games, which were the first where the effects of parlor modding and the consequent monetization of mods was felt. Newer games might not have these effects yet, but they will eventually come. 

The monetization only turns matters worse. NFTs are coming. The industry is adopting them, and when they adopt something, they enforce it. In the last three months I tested 16 games, and all of them had chromatic aberration, with only two having the option to turn it off. They will do the same with NFTs, and when this happens, the doom the OP is talking about will be a reality. Only "authorized" authors will be able to release anything, and outside of the NFT platform modders will be persecuted and branded as "thieves" by default. 

[Grey Cloud]

7 hours ago, RohZima said:

I think skyrim is just old and people are bored of it. It's obsolete.

Exactly. Skyrim is 10 years old and has been modded every which way.

How many mods are still being made for NWN1? There were zillions of them way back when and many of them are still available.

 

7 hours ago, RohZima said:

Parlor model?

I just had to google that cause I've never heard it.

Same here. Just another false dichotomy which people take as fact. Does anyone seriously believe that all the Skyrim mods ever made (or the mod authors) fall into one of those two categories?

[sg20903]

15 hours ago, TheWilloughbian said:

 

Reading this I do recall the transition. It was the day that Metalica pitched a fit when they were downloading music on nabster and found their brand new album there. XD Not that I don't think the internet should be completely unregulated, but yes, it does seem the sentiment of "hey I made this resource and I donate it to the public domain" has seen better days. I appreciate the incite. Thank you.

 

 

Thanks : ) though in a strange way both apply XD we'll just have to use both : )

 

 

This correct. There are just certain conveniences to something that operates in the fasion NMM does/did alongside manual installation when tinkering the way I like to do. I don't really even play the game anymore. I just like eye candy and building sets in the CK for screenshots. For my purposes Wrye Bash and an old build of NMM will do. 

 

And yes I am very much a masochist. I think everyone here would enjoy my dungeon. : ) 

 

 

 

It just seemed that vortex was actively trying to prevent me from what I was trying to do and was somewhat resentful and very stoned when I wrote that.  I'm insinuating there is collusion between Bethesda and Nexus to stop me from modding the game I purchased as I wish. XD 

 

I guess I was a little sad to see the state of some things after a couple years away from modding. I came here because I've always enjoyed my interactions with people on this site. Had good times here when SMP first came out for SSE. I got into other things shortly after and wasn't really doing anything with modding. I figured no one would mind if I were to speak a bit of my experience with game modding and ask about some of the attitudes I came across, when looking for a bit of info on what mod management utilities would best suit my needs. 

 

I am pleased to say I managed to get my backup of the installation I was trying to save, up and running. Wrye Bash did the trick. That set the load order from the save button was a life saver. 

Vortex gets a lot of crap from people, but it's just like any other tool; learn to use it, and it'll do what the user needs it to. I used to use MO2, and there was a lot of stuff about it that bothered me, simply from an ease of use perspective. I'm not gonna be person to tell you what you should or shouldn't do, as it seems you have a process that works for you, so changing that seems silly. Regarding modding being outright dead, however, I'm not sure I'd jump to that conclusion just yet, personally. Sure, amazing quality overhauls that change large amounts of gameplay aren't super common anymore, but there's no shortage of really well done utility/QoL mods. One that I began using recently, just to give an example, is one that simply changes the meshes for the lockpicking minigame based on location (i.e. a lock in a dwemer ruin will have a dwemer themed lock).

 

I guess the TL;DR version is that while massive mods aren't super common anymore, the modding community is very much still alive. A lot of the old guard has moved on, but that doesn't mean some of the fresh modders won't or can't take up the mantle. In my eyes modding is only truly dead when nobody is making them anymore, period.

[Grey Cloud]

31 minutes ago, ugrena said:

Vortex gets a lot of crap from people, but it's just like any other tool; learn to use it, and it'll do what the user needs it to.

Amen to that. ?

 

 

[TheWilloughbian]

5 hours ago, ugrena said:

Vortex gets a lot of crap from people, but it's just like any other tool; learn to use it, and it'll do what the user needs it to.

 

I realized this as I was trying to do things the way I had with NMM. That was going to need to read up a bit. I did try Vortex when it first came out. But having a working install with NMM at the time, it just wasn't something I was looking to get into. But I did want to try it out with a fresh install this time. I'm sure I'll still tinker with it a bit and see what all it can do. It seems to me, the aim of it is to have console style modding for PC. I can understand how that appeals to a great many gamers. I'm just not sure what functions it as a mod building utility yet.