Toxic Masculinity and Men's Shame

[Z0mBieP00Nani]

9 hours ago, peculiaris said:

 

This is actually a common misconception, if human civilization isn't roughly equally split between men and women and so doesn't reach it's natural genetic diversity, society will collapse in a few generations.

Actually if you go far enough back everything is technically incest, so this is also a misconception.

 

I mean believe it or not I think something like 13% of Americans can trace their origins back to a few families who settled here back in the 1600s so you know damn well that at some point there's been some distant cousin fucking going on. I've also heard that things like mashed up teeth can be a sign of a shallow gene pool but.. I don't want to insult anyone from the UK too much, lol.

 

(Speaking as someone with mostly English and Irish ancestry)

[KoolHndLuke]

I'm thinking about this with regards to raising children now- not so much how to make more or less of them. Everything I have ever read states unequivocally that children who grow up in a traditional nuclear family are better for it in every way. I grew up in a single parent home without a father and I can say that it did put me at a major disadvantage compared with all the other children. I didn't know certain things and felt very insecure. In fact, I felt inferior and still kind of do all these years later.

 

Absentee fathers are ruining our societies I think. But, what is it that a man, or father, does that's so important in a child's development- I mean that can't be done by a woman? Do children brought up in families with two men or two women get the same benefits?

 

Thinking about it more, there were some things I could never understand about myself and my brother. These were questions that only our biological father could answer. After decades of separation, we were finally able to ask our father some of these things. As expected, he had very few answers. But, even just the reconnection with him did help answer some questions for both of us I feel though. But alas, it turns out you can't make up for years of absence with a little Q&A. Those years are gone and I only succeeded in getting a little closure.

[phillout]

13 hours ago, LadySmoks said:

Why do you feel such need to demean someone just because their first language is not English? It isn't my first language either.

Nor it is mine. I'm Russian myself, just like that guy I was talking to.

 

And I wasn't "demeaning" anyone - I said exactly what I meant. 

[phillout]

17 hours ago, Mr. Otaku said:

Well then no wonder you're understanding wrong all the time, you're using good translate lmao.

 

There goes the matrix, you broke it.

 

Such a bizarre and salty tangent. If you're arguing that the ability to talk is the reason why we're so advanced then you must ask where that ability came from. I shouldn't have to explain this to an adult.

 

So close yet so far lol. Tell me why they're so small in the first place.

IOW you've got nothing left aside from personal attacks.

 

You're just as boring as clueless.

[phillout]

15 hours ago, Sillius_Maximus said:

Real men CAN cry, CAN wear

one can be non toxic, AND not prone to crying, or just not a fan of wearing pink

But you are correct in that if someone does cry or wear pink, it doesnt make them more or less a "man"

 

It's not about you. Or me. Or any other man personally.

 

It's about those depending on us. A man doesn't show a sign of a stress in a stressful situation to keep those around him calm. That's the point, not your personal feelings. Thinking about himself only shows that the man is still a child.

[Mr. Otaku]

15 minutes ago, phillout said:

IOW you've got nothing left aside from personal attacks.

Personal attacks? Where? Weren't you complaining that SJW types are fragile and easy to trigger and offend? And yet you're crying "personal attacks" when i didn't even say anything bad to you? I'm starting to see a pattern here.

 

Ain't nothing like accusing the other guy of "not having anything left to say" while not saying anything but cry "personal attacks" in return.

 

15 minutes ago, phillout said:

You're just as boring as clueless.

Classic projection. Nothing left to say? lol

[GoyBoi]

We need more masculine men in our society

[Z0mBieP00Nani]

3 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

I'm thinking about this with regards to raising children now- not so much how to make more or less of them. Everything I have ever read states unequivocally that children who grow up in a traditional nuclear family are better for it in every way. I grew up in a single parent home without a father and I can say that it did put me at a major disadvantage compared with all the other children. I didn't know certain things and felt very insecure. In fact, I felt inferior and still kind of do all these years later.

 

Absentee fathers are ruining our societies I think. But, what is it that a man, or father, does that's so important in a child's development- I mean that can't be done by a woman? Do children brought up in families with two men or two women get the same benefits?

 

Thinking about it more, there were some things I could never understand about myself and my brother. These were questions that only our biological father could answer. After decades of separation, we were finally able to ask our father some of these things. As expected, he had very few answers. But, even just the reconnection with him did help answer some questions for both of us I feel though. But alas, it turns out you can't make up for years of absence with a little Q&A. Those years are gone and I only succeeded in getting a little closure.

Fathers lay down the law a bit better than mothers do, especially around the teen years. There's a dynamic of respect that exists that you don't really get in a single parent household with only the mother in charge, the mother is almost always the more lenient parent but that's not good when it comes to teaching people how they should behave or rather how to have self control. Without a father figure often times you see kids grow to a point where they can overpower their mother if they want to and so they go off and do whatever they want (often times this means they end up becoming criminals or joining gangs). I can't help but think that being or feeling abandoned by one's own father is not very good for psychological development either, it must instill a feeling of worthlessness to some degree, when really it may very well have been the mother who chased the father away or kicked him out in order to receive a government check.

 

When it comes to men who choose to marry single mothers (an absolutely terrible idea, even to date one by the way) often what you will find is that the man winds up becoming a wallet with no real authority around the household, and the kids know this so they walk all over him knowing that mom has their back "...you're not my real dad! You can't tell ME what to do!" I mean how is a guy to respond to that level of disobedience when he can't give them a proper ass whoopin' like their biological father could? From his point of view something like that just wouldn't seem right because he KNOWS he's not their father. Then you have the mother who looses a bit of respect for the man because of it, she's thinking "I got with you partly because I needed someone to help me lay down the law around here and all you do is stand around like some idiot" not considering the fact that she is only helping to make that man's job impossible and THEN what happens? She eventually ditches the guy and goes on to find someone else (hopefully not a sexual predator because that's also pretty common).

 

I have a bad headache, and it hurts to type this out, or think really, but that's basically the general reason behind things.

[phillout]

9 minutes ago, Mr. Otaku said:

Personal attacks? Where? Weren't you complaining that SJW types are fragile and easy to trigger and offend?

Offend with what? With an anecdote that wasn't directed at anyone about "men vs males"? And how did you react to it - by calling all Russians alcoholics not thinking straight. Go ahead, read your response. This was a really weird reaction to a joke. An adequate person reacts to a joke being silly or poorly delivered by "this joke sucks, it's not even funny" or in a similar manner, not by blasting the whole ethnic group for no reason. The only reason for such reaction I can imagine is being offended. There are other possibilities, but I don't want to even start discussing those, it would be pointless.anyway.

 

Quote

when i didn't even say anything bad to you? 

As in "talking in a language I could understand"? 

 

Next time you have an argument with someone, consider being less pompous and instead have some facts to back up your claims.

[Mr. Otaku]

29 minutes ago, Z0mBieP00Nani said:

<snip> the mother is almost always the more lenient parent but that's not good when it comes to teaching people how they should behave or rather how to have self control. <snip>

Good post but i think there's more to this than just leniency. Many households don't have the "mother = lenient, father = strict" dynamic due to how the parents are as people, i know this because it was like that with my parents too where my dad was more easygoing and mom was stricter. The real reason i think the father figure is important for kids is because the father acts like an adult representation of what a grown up man should be like.

In the eyes of a child, their father is a big source of behavioral information and an even bigger source of bonding and understanding. Parents are children's biggest reference growing up, which is why their role is so important and their absence causes so many problems.

 

This is why in households where the father figure is abusive and neglectful the child suffers just the same as or worse than kids with no father figure. The parental figure has to be good themselves, only then children will have a good childhood.

[Mr. Otaku]

11 minutes ago, phillout said:

by calling all Russians alcoholics not thinking straight.

Lol you just proved my point. You're just like the SJW who can't tell when someone's being hyperbolic and sarcastic. How is this any different from feminists getting triggered over a joke about women? On top of that i didn't even know you're russian, i didn't care and i still don't.

 

13 minutes ago, phillout said:

As in "talking in a language I could understand"? 

 

Next time you have an argument with someone, consider being less pompous and instead have some facts to back up your claims.

LMAO oh my god you really ARE triggered aren't you? That little phrase hurt you this badly? I said that to emphasize on the point that you're making dismissive and misinformed claims. This is called "getting a taste of your own medicine".

 

Next time you start getting triggered over someone for the pettiest reasons, consider being more rational and having a thicker skin. Maybe learn what the word "facts" even means. Then you come talk to me.

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, phillout said:

A man doesn't show a sign of a stress in a stressful situation to keep those around him calm.

And there are those who will say that is toxic. My husband's father died almost 6 years ago. I saw a single tear only one time when we were alone. He never wept in public, as he understood his responsibility to be strong, and support his mother and sister. He said it is as is father would wish of him. What some call "toxic" are burdens of responsibility. Yes, men do bad and stupid things, but also women do these things. They are just bad traits that some have. Being strong and supportive of your family is not a bad trait.

[KoolHndLuke]

46 minutes ago, Mr. Otaku said:

This is why in households where the father figure is abusive and neglectful the child suffers just the same as or worse than kids with no father figure.

I'm not so sure. Often I thought that even having a "bad" father might be better than none at all. One reason is the name in the community- people know your family by your parents. And when dealing with male dominated professions- for instance- even having an asshole for a father can help you as long as he is somewhat respected. Besides, a bad father doesn't automatically mean that he doesn't care about his children. It just means he's bad a being a parent. I'd take an abusive father if the fucker had plenty of money to compensate, lol.

[Mr. Otaku]

21 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

I'm not so sure. Often I thought that even having a "bad" father might be better than none at all. The reason is the name in the community- people know your family by your parents. And when dealing with male dominated professions- for instance- even having an asshole for a father can help you as long as he is somewhat respected. Besides, a bad father doesn't automatically mean that he doesn't care about his children. It just means he's bad a being a parent.

Having a bad father is absolutely worse than having no father at all. What's better, getting your shit kicked in by your alcoholic angry father with a cigarette addiction? or laying in your bed at night wondering what it's like to have a father? A man who mistreats his kids is not respected because words fly fast, and he certainly will not help his kid with their professional pursuits. There's a world of difference between a father who isn't very good at being one but cares about his kids deep down and a father who only sees his kids as an insurance ticket and punching bag to be spat on and yell at.

 

I've seen both, the choice is easy.

[phillout]

1 hour ago, LadySmoks said:

And there are those who will say that is toxic. 

Shrugs I don't see a reason to conform to the opinion of those, people say weird stuff all the time. There is an old Asian parable about a man, woman and their donkey. No matter what combinations they tried - the man riding, woman walking, the woman riding, man walking, both riding, both walking - people around were always finding a reason to call them idiots, savages etc. 

 

The problem with the world today is whatever any random idiot is saying will be reposted, liked and spread like cancer. I personally think the very idea that masculinity is "toxic" and femininity is a sign of weakness is so absurd it barely worth talking about.

[Resdayn]

2 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

 Besides, a bad father doesn't automatically mean that he doesn't care about his children. It just means he's bad a being a parent. 

Bad fathers don't care about their children thats why they are bad parent ^^.

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, phillout said:

masculinity is "toxic" and femininity is a sign of weakness is so absurd it barely worth talking about.

Agreed. As I have said, if my husband wept as a baby, as it appears some feel is their ideal "non-toxic" version of what they want in a man, I would not have married such a person. And my femininity gives me the power of Delilah to at least be equal to my Samson!

 

Sensitive, caring, loving, tender man? Does not have to weep!

 

[Ernest Lemmingway]

This whole "toxic masculinity" argument in pop culture, IMO, comes off as more Far Left dogma. They keep screaming about making changes but they want revolution when what we need is evolution. Real change requires sympathy, understanding, and patience. The very things they lack in spades.

[Mr. Otaku]

9 minutes ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

This whole "toxic masculinity" argument in pop culture, IMO, comes off as more Far Left dogma. They keep screaming about making changes but they want revolution when what we need is evolution. Real change requires sympathy, understanding, and patience. The very things they lack in spades.

Expecting woke wannabe activists to have understanding and patience is such an oxymoron lol. They don't understand reality, they wanna be triggered at something and want it destroyed and gone that very moment or they'll "cAnCeL" it on twitter and other sites like it. Ironic that they point at others and whine "toxic!!" all the time. Self reflection, we don't sell em here, cause they don't buy it.

[Darkpig]

I predict this thread is going to degrade into politics.

44 minutes ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

This whole "toxic masculinity" argument in pop culture, IMO, comes off as more Far Left dogma.

Oh too late. The concept is really simple if you think about it. It is the lingering of ancient ideals that no longer hold weight. It was once held that men didn't need to read instructions but now that technology has advanced this much it is no longer the case. Same with the male need to show force. Since the government now holds a monopoly on force strong men are stuck twiddling their thumbs. Oh right politics. Whether you call this toxic masculinity or whatever the culture of dominance still holds weight especially in prisons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity

Statistics point to it happening mostly in male prisons so I mean what do you want to call it? Toxic Femininity?

 

Have men truly changed in the last 300 years? Say yes.

[MonVert]

5 hours ago, Darkpig said:

Have men truly changed in the last 300 years?

 

Men became Women, so, yes?

 

According to this thread, anyhow.

[Darkpig]

2 hours ago, MonVert said:

 

Men became Women, so, yes?

 

According to this thread, anyhow.

I did at one point hint at this being no longer a thread about men but to be fair there are some people out there who think that all men are toxic assholes. Many of these people are not men(imagine that) but still I expected only 10% of the thread to be about women and 90% about men. Yes silly me for thinking this would be mostly about men in a thread about masculinity. This thread is now henceforth the Bitch about Feminists thread. You're welcome~

[Resdayn]

7 hours ago, MonVert said:

 

Men became Women, so, yes?

 

According to this thread, anyhow.

They still look like men and act like men. ?

 

[Heroine HoneyCrotch]

Toxic women are way worse, they're the worst!

[Ernest Lemmingway]

17 hours ago, Darkpig said:

I predict this thread is going to degrade into politics.

Oh too late.

This isn't about politics per se. It's about ideology. The line between the two has always been extremely thin and in a few specific cases (like AOC and "the Squad" or all of Twitter), it's nonexistent. They equate the former with the latter.

 

I also know all about what lame stream media, including Wikipedia, thinks about "toxic masculinity." True toxic personalities are clinically signs of psychopathy. How they manifest does differ between the sexes but the numbers are consistent between both (damned Psychology Today doesn't have the article archived). What pop culture calls "toxic masculinity" is just another projection by snowflakes desperate to avoid facing their own failings and a complete misrepresentation of the term "toxic."