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KoolHndLuke

Toxic Masculinity and Men's Shame

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2 hours ago, submissive miss tris said:

literally all feminists want is for men to be a bit more chill and not normalize rape. it's.. not that hard. there are radical feminists who hate men yeah but they're a tiny minority and tbh want me dead too lmao. we want manhood to exist and be defined in masculinity, we just don't want it to rely on hurting people who don't deserve it

What a ridiculous statement, my fucking brain hurts trying to figure out where to start. Rape is illegal... sometimes the system fails, but it's better than a fucking mob lynching over an accusation. That pesky presumption of innocence, eh? Also, men aren't inherently violent, it's the smallest of a percent of the population that actually commits acts of violence, and if you're talking about children... little girls behavior is far worse.

 

Polite society abhors violent crimes like rape and murder... rape is not "normalized" (bad site to make such a claim, but my points no less real) The problem is that humanity always falls short of it's ideals.

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8 hours ago, submissive miss tris said:

literally all feminists want is for men to be a bit more chill and not normalize rape. it's.. not that hard. there are radical feminists who hate men yeah but they're a tiny minority and tbh want me dead too lmao. we want manhood to exist and be defined in masculinity, we just don't want it to rely on hurting people who don't deserve it

The original idea and intention of feminism has nothing - and I mean NOTHING - to do with men. It was solely centered around people (primarily but not exclusively women) that wanted to be accepted the way they are. Not being forced into the role that society (this includes other women) considered the role of that persons gender

It was the idea of people being allowed to live their lives the way they want without law or society (again, this includes other women) going in their way, trying to stop them and forcing them onto a path that they considered to be the proper style of living

 

Feminism was about freedom and self awareness, and nothing else.

Men have nothing to do with this. They werent even in the way of those goals, society was (Ill stop noting that this includes other women now). This is a very important detail that modern feminism ignores all the time

 

Real, true feminism is about accepting the person behind the gender, accepting and treating a person the way that person is - not what their gender wants this person to be - in law and in society

 

Modern feminism is just a cheap excuse for sexism against men at this point. It has very little to do with its original goals and intentions

 

No one is normalizing rape anymore. In fact, raping your own is considered an dishonorable crime for thousands of years now. We are all looking down at it, hence why you when someone rapes someone youll see it in the afternoon news. Because. it. is. not. considered. normal.  News. do. not. feature. "normal". things. Thats another small detail that most tend to ignore

Feminists are the only ones that normalize rape. Theyre the only ones always running about claiming one is raping another 

 

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1 hour ago, Scrab said:

Real, true feminism is about accepting the person behind the gender, accepting and treating a person the way that person is - not what their gender wants this person to be - in law and in society

Trying to say that it had nothing to do with men is also saying that it had nothing to do with women. In other words, you're saying the original focus was about individualism- which is not even supported by the name. It was an idea, a movement, in direct opposition to perceived male dominated society in an effort to simultaneously undermine men's authority while giving women more and disguised as many things- including individualism- to mask it's true intent (and scope).

 

So men shared their power without realizing how whetting an appetite only makes the inexperienced intoxicated and hungry for more- and it is not a thing that more of can be fabricated. It is finite and liquid and not easily recovered when it is lost.

 

Power resides in the hands of those that wield it.

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1 hour ago, KoolHndLuke said:

Trying to say that it had nothing to do with men is also saying that it had nothing to do with women. In other words, you're saying the original focus was about individualism- which is not even supported by the name. It was an idea, a movement, in direct opposition to perceived male dominated society in an effort to simultaneously undermine men's authority while giving women more.

Of course its about individualism. Women wanted to be treated as an individual that is allowed to

- work in whatever environment they wanted (or even work at all)

- short hair

- manage money on their own

- own a house

- have a child on their own

- divorce by their own choice

- sue people

- etcpp

instead of just a gender what looks after children and cooks in the kitchen

 

Of course that required changes in law and societies thinking but all of those things are about allowing a women to live her live the live she wants and allowing those things was the goal of feminism. It wasnt about men not wanting this to happen, in fact it wasnt about "men" to begin with, it was "society" which didnt want to allow this and while men are indeed part of society women are too. Feminisn was never about opposing anything prior to the past few decades. It was about the freedom to life your own live the way you want and being self aware as in "Im not just a women, Im who I am" and achieving that society as a whole would accept this

 

Saying feminism is women vs men is straight up false and corrupts the idea of feminism - which in itself was a noble cause (I want to emphasize the "was")

 

The world felt "male dominant" because women werent supposed to live out their individual life but rather follow traditions because past (the past BEFORE FEMINISM) was indeed misogynistic but the more you go into our current time, the lesst misogynistic humanity as a whole became. When feminism started there were no laws saying women werent allowed to do smth most of the time it was a simple "women werent supposed to do smth (so I wont allow you to/youre not going to)" (based on tradition)

Feminism isnt this holy grail of female templars ending the injustice that was put onto the female gender and murdering men for their own rights in a war equal to the french revolution like its depicted in modern feminism - it wasnt even a "women only thing" as mentioned in my previous post, this thinking is just straight up wrong

 

Feminism is a shift in societies thinking caused by people believing in this cause. They just wanted to live their own lives in any way they wanted without people - men and women - or law getting into their way. It wasnt about men specifically, it never was

 

As a slight fun fact: Some men had very similar issues. These gender role restrictions didnt exist only on the womens part, men also had (and still have) issues like that, the difference is just that the amount of men that wanted to go to the puppet theatre instead of look for shiny cars is significantly smaller than the amount of women who wanted to own a house and make their own money and curse from time to time, that is just completely forgotten because no1 cares about it, it doesnt fit into this "men vs women" picture

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26 minutes ago, Scrab said:

The world felt "male dominant" because women werent supposed to live out their individual life but rather follow traditions because past (the past BEFORE FEMINISM) was indeed misogynistic but the more you go into our current time, the lesst misogynistic humanity as a whole became. When feminism started there were no laws saying women werent allowed to do smth most of the time it was a simple "women werent supposed to do smth (so I wont allow you to/youre not going to)" (based on tradition)

Feminism isnt this holy grail of female templars ending the injustice that was put onto the female gender and murdering men for their own rights in a war equal to the french revolution like its depicted in modern feminism - it wasnt even a "women only thing" as mentioned in my previous post, this thinking is just straight up wrong

 

Feminism is a shift in societies thinking caused by people believing in this cause. They just wanted to live their own lives in any way they wanted without people - men and women - or law getting into their way. It wasnt about men specifically, it never was

So, first, I assume you mean to stay "What I think feminism means is...." as even you would admit that you do not speak for the entire movement, nor are aware of all the various demands by self described feminists.   Second, you admit that there were no laws preventing a woman from living as she pleased, just that society would ostracize her.   So, please, in your opinion, what is the desired outcome?   Do you seek to take money and political power away from those you feel don't deserve it and give to those that do deserve it (equal results) or just the opportunity to achieve the same level (equal opportunity)  of money and power (or however you define success)?

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Prior to feminism, there were no laws to protect a women nor did society try to defend women that did break those traditions. The goal was to change that, be accepted as an individual that can live out their individual goals without having to fear an unfair treatment due to laws that didnt protect you properly or humans not accepting you anymore (this also includes being socially excluded because you have short hairs) 

One of feminisms biggest achievements was the 1st article "All humans are born and treated equal" (I dont know the exact phrasing, not a lawyer). This wasnt the case previously. There were no laws saying a woman isnt allowed to own a company but there were also no laws saying that a company owned by a women gets the same protection as a company owned by a man.

The idea wasnt to fight men so that theyre companies arent protected either, its about changing societies thinking so that law would also protect a womens companies. That doesnt really have anything to do with men, does it?

 

Of course I cant talk about all the individual people that claim to be a feminist but the greater goal of 1st & 2nd wave feminism was not about fighting men, it was really just to be treated equal and accepted as an individual that can live their own life, about breaking traditions that restricted women

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37 minutes ago, Scrab said:

Of course its about individualism. Women wanted to be treated as an individual that is allowed to

- work in whatever environment they wanted (or even work at all)

- short hair

- manage money on their own

- own a house

- have a child on their own

- divorce by their own choice

- sue people

- etcpp

instead of just a gender what looks after children and cooks in the kitchen

 

Of course that required changes in law and societies thinking but all of those things are about allowing a women to live her live the live she wants and allowing those things was the goal of feminism. It wasnt about men not wanting this to happen, in fact it wasnt about "men" to begin with, it was "society" which didnt want to allow this and while men are indeed part of society women are too. Feminisn was never about opposing anything prior to the past few decades. It was about the freedom to life your own live the way you want and being self aware as in "Im not just a women, Im who I am" and achieving that society as a whole would accept this

 

Saying feminism is women vs men is straight up false and corrupts the idea of feminism - which in itself was a noble cause (I want to emphasize the "was")

 

The world felt "male dominant" because women werent supposed to live out their individual life but rather follow traditions because past (the past BEFORE FEMINISM) was indeed misogynistic but the more you go into our current time, the lesst misogynistic humanity as a whole became. When feminism started there were no laws saying women werent allowed to do smth most of the time it was a simple "women werent supposed to do smth (so I wont allow you to/youre not going to)" (based on tradition)

Feminism isnt this holy grail of female templars ending the injustice that was put onto the female gender and murdering men for their own rights in a war equal to the french revolution like its depicted in modern feminism - it wasnt even a "women only thing" as mentioned in my previous post, this thinking is just straight up wrong

 

Feminism is a shift in societies thinking caused by people believing in this cause. They just wanted to live their own lives in any way they wanted without people - men and women - or law getting into their way. It wasnt about men specifically, it never was

 

As a slight fun fact: Some men had very similar issues. These gender role restrictions didnt exist only on the womens part, men also had (and still have) issues like that, the difference is just that the amount of men that wanted to go to the puppet theatre instead of look for shiny cars is significantly smaller than the amount of women who wanted to own a house and make their own money and curse from time to time, that is just completely forgotten because no1 cares about it, it doesnt fit into this "men vs women" picture

 

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14 hours ago, Mr. Otaku said:

Give me an example of rape being normalized by men.

It's mostly semantics at this point. When they speak about 'normalizing rape' or 'rape culture' they don't mean rape in the traditional sense, i.e. forcing someone to have intercourse or into other sexual activities. Rather, everything is rape when viewed from a certain angle. You didn't quite like that one night stand? Well, it's obviously rape! You were slightly drunk at a party and had sex with some random stranger? Why yes, that absolutely is rape.

 

In a way, that's just a coping mechanism for choices you've made but regret afterwards. Because that way, it wasn't your bad choice and you can walk away with your reputation intact at the small cost of destroying someone else's. The funny thing is that this line of thought reinforces some of the ideas from the middle ages about men and women, for example that women aren't capable of deciding for themselves and have to rely on a man to make sensible decisions for them.

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27 minutes ago, GrimReaper said:

It's mostly semantics at this point. When they speak about 'normalizing rape' or 'rape culture' they don't mean rape in the traditional sense, i.e. forcing someone to have intercourse or into other sexual activities. Rather, everything is rape when viewed from a certain angle. You didn't quite like that one night stand? Well, it's obviously rape! You were slightly drunk at a party and had sex with some random stranger? Why yes, that absolutely is rape.

 

In a way, that's just a coping mechanism for choices you've made but regret afterwards. Because that way, it wasn't your bad choice and you can walk away with your reputation intact at the small cost of destroying someone else's. The funny thing is that this line of thought reinforces some of the ideas from the middle ages about men and women, for example that women aren't capable of deciding for themselves and have to rely on a man to make sensible decisions for them.

Yeah, feminism is an unfunny joke at this point. Feminists today are working actively to undermine the achievements of their predecessor and they don't even know it, they call it "progressivism". Imagine being so progressive that you actually start regressing back to the starting point. The circle of life and societies, irony on a civilizational scale.

 

It's whatever though, if anything can be rape then rape itself has no meaning anymore. Society will reap what it sows one way or another, only a matter of time. The effects have already started to show themselves.

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Maybe it's a good idea to check what thousands of generations of well educated people in the past thought of the topic, instead trying to solve it again and again. People tend to be more focussed when they actually have to spend time and have effort in order to make a point. Nowadays, it's common for everybody to have an opinion on everything, because one read somewhere something from someone who somehow believes to be in the position of being important.

 

Or, as a wise man once said:

 

 

That movie defined for me what a man is supposed to be.

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15 hours ago, Mr. Otaku said:

Give me an example of rape being normalized by men.

Hmmm. There are still some old lingering myths about child birth that have yet to be dismissed. Child birth is not some holy event releasing some unborn child it is the result of a sperm death race to fertilize an egg.

 

Now here is the kicker. If all child births are holy events then:💩

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I think Toxic Masculinity is perhaps the most abused concept in the english language lately. Some people want to incorrectly attribute it to all sorts of behavior that doesn't apply to the term (misogyny, homophobia, and rape as the wiki article claims) and it's a shame because it really meant something before "activists" took it on a ride. It's a literal killer. I knew people that have died because they were "tough guys" who never talked about their feelings. There is a really strong lack of honesty and vulnerability between guys because it's seen as gay to be open about things. Most men tend to "tough it out" when they get sick, because they don't want to seem weak and it ends with them dying or getting seriously ill. Mental illness too. It makes me really fucking sick to hear about how it's blown out of proportion to the point that people don't give a shit about the term anymore. It's a serious problem among a shit ton of dudes all around the world, in every single culture, that is not being addressed because a couple of woke feminist champagne liberals ruined the term. Men need to talk about this shit because it's real.

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5 hours ago, Scrab said:

One of feminisms biggest achievements was the 1st article "All humans are born and treated equal" (I dont know the exact phrasing, not a lawyer). This wasnt the case previously. There were no laws saying a woman isnt allowed to own a company but there were also no laws saying that a company owned by a women gets the same protection as a company owned by a man.

The idea wasnt to fight men so that theyre companies arent protected either, its about changing societies thinking so that law would also protect a womens companies. That doesnt really have anything to do with men, does it?

What is definition of "protection" are you using?  Protection from failure, protection from taxes, protection from competition?

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25 minutes ago, steelpanther24 said:

What is definition of "protection" are you using?  Protection from failure, protection from taxes, protection from competition?

Protection from dismissal of individual rights and freedom of expression and choices, i'm thinking. That was a long time ago though, i dare say women have too much "protection" nowadays which is the unfortunate fall of feminism and woke narratives in general.

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4 minutes ago, Darkpig said:

For some reason I thought this was about men's issues. Guess we're talking about women now.

 

I'm gonna gonna go play videogames.

You know how it is pigman, no one issue is not connected to ten more issues. It's virtually impossible to talk about men's issues without covering it's relation to women and vice versa.

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Welcome to the world of Libtardism. Wahmen wonder why they're dying alone more than ever. Why men are going gay, let alone dying alone or getting with a colored woman from another country that's not a crazy ass liberal like American women. Why men are MGTOW and the rise of Incels. Women and the white knights created a generation of oppressed and confused men.

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The pot boiled over. Now there's shit everywhere and no one wants to clean it up, just point fingers.

 

I'll say one thing - lack of so called feminism was convenient back when mother nature's plans for the sexes was working. Now with technology and modern society removing the need for a majority of the results of millions of years of evolution, People are struggling to find balance. Society had ridden hard on past gender roles because over time it served some better than others.

 

Nature built a house - society today says it's antiquated. People tried to make improvements over time but for whatever reason, it wasn't progressing fast enough. So now the house has been knocked down and it's a fuckin mess. Men seem to be saying "Go ahead build it however you want, but don't ask us to help since our input isn't viable".  I'm not sure what women are saying, because I don't speak 'Karen'.

 

I'll just take my toxic masculinity and show myself the door now......

 

 

>Sarcasm is an art, but like a Pollock painting, not for everyone.

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6 hours ago, Darkening Demise said:

Welcome to the world of Libtardism. Wahmen wonder why they're dying alone more than ever. Why men are going gay, let alone dying alone or getting with a colored woman from another country that's not a crazy ass liberal like American women. Why men are MGTOW and the rise of Incels. Women and the white knights created a generation of oppressed and confused men.

 

Can you repeat that in Non-Buzzwordian English?

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11 hours ago, Thic said:

I think Toxic Masculinity is perhaps the most abused concept in the english language lately. Some people want to incorrectly attribute it to all sorts of behavior that doesn't apply to the term (misogyny, homophobia, and rape as the wiki article claims) and it's a shame because it really meant something before "activists" took it on a ride. It's a literal killer. I knew people that have died because they were "tough guys" who never talked about their feelings. There is a really strong lack of honesty and vulnerability between guys because it's seen as gay to be open about things. Most men tend to "tough it out" when they get sick, because they don't want to seem weak and it ends with them dying or getting seriously ill. Mental illness too. It makes me really fucking sick to hear about how it's blown out of proportion to the point that people don't give a shit about the term anymore. It's a serious problem among a shit ton of dudes all around the world, in every single culture, that is not being addressed because a couple of woke feminist champagne liberals ruined the term. Men need to talk about this shit because it's real.

Yeah, a discussion needs to be had... the problem is these same "champagne liberals" whom get the spotlight, there answer is it's mens fault. When boys get brow-beaten from birth that they're not important, and worse, that they're the problem in the first place, no shit they disconnect and refuse to make things 'better' I'd rather be the monkey wrench in their design then just a unappreciated cog. If they want to make my life worse, why would I help make theres better.

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