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KoolHndLuke

Toxic Masculinity and Men's Shame

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2 hours ago, Scrab said:

Peter Salovey and John D. Mayer in 1990, nothing a quick google search couldnt tell you

Google search is something I had suggested YOU might wish to try. And hilariously, when I did search that, the very first word on the page was "ABSTRACT". As I said, basically made up poop with zero empirical evidence to support any of it, but sucked up by a few who buy the book and make the fabricators of the nonsense very rich.

 

You don't measure such a thing, because you can not. No one can... it is purely subjective, and a matter of the individual's opinion... not based on any know facts. I can create an entire list of silly things as my benchmarks for "emotional intelligence", create a grading system, and in doing so, have whatever result I want.

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3 hours ago, Voiddweller said:

This is not even an argument at all.

Yet "Every trait of a "toxic masculinity" is enforced on boys" is valid.

3 hours ago, Scrab said:

Oof.. how about you just read post #260 again.

What does some men being assholes and some women being bitches have to do with physical differences? Furthermore if gender roles are the results of upbringing and tradition then why are the females in said post such violent bitches. You see it's that upbringing and tradition that a fair many of us were raised believing in "men don't hit women" which enables this sort of behavior. Women being aware of this fact often use that to their advantage.

3 hours ago, Scrab said:

I mean I literally noted this misconception in my previous post

Even when I agree with you you become argumentative.

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1 hour ago, wokking56 said:

What does some men being assholes and some women being bitches have to do with physical differences?

No clue, why youre using it as an argument?

Thats pretty much everything what this entire discussion is about, no? You defending the other guy because I said its stupid to think that this entire idea "men being "toxic"" is due to physiological differences that are defined by birth due to evolution and cavemen and blah. Thats pretty much what this first post was about - at least in my book. Whichs also why I closed that first post of mine with "Youre entire post is contradicting with your last line" 

 

Of course physical differences dont define whos an idiot and who isnt, especially not in our modern time. That has been my statement this entire time. (-> "behavior isnt defined by gender")

1 hour ago, wokking56 said:

You see it's that upbringing and tradition that a fair many of us were raised believing in "men don't hit women" which enables this sort of behavior. Women being aware of this fact often use that to their advantage.

And that goes hand in hand with that first post on the last page which I was defending

"Men arent "toxic" by nature but forced into this role due to surroundings" 

I dont know if I ever said anything about men definitely being "toxic" due to education, if so, my pardon, that was never my intention. But this .. uh.. issue is that standing up for yourself is considered "toxic" but not doing so also ends up in calling you "toxic" for no reason, so what do you do, other than being "toxic"? - and thats an issue society is causing. Its not nature and it has nothing to do with psychology or physiology (-> "behavior isnt defined by gender")

1 hour ago, wokking56 said:

Even when I agree with you you become argumentative.

The amount of times Ive been provoked in this "discussion" - or well someone tried to provoke me - is .. well.. its a lot. How exactly would you react when you expect that everything the other says is just trying to provoke you again?

Im trying my best to stay neutral here, but I aint perfect

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Im trying my best to stay neutral here, but I aint perfect

No, you aren't and no you aren't.

 

1. Men and Women's brains are biologically different, which directly and factually means their brains are also physically and emotionally different; and one of the ways we know this irrefutably is because of gender dysphoria and dismorphia. Trans people prove there are substantial differences outside of any kind of societal norm or pressure, and autopsies performed on trans people pre- and post op more often than not show structrual arrangements and bridged connections of the sex (not gender) they were trying to transition into in life. Fact. Biological fact.

 

2. That men and women rely on societal support and construction to attempt to achieve parity has jack shit to do with previous evolutionary milestones. Nature does not give the slightest fuck about what kind of political toga you decided to wear this century. At all.

 

Once again you haven't the faintest fucking clue of what you're talking about. quel surprise.

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You see it's that upbringing and tradition that a fair many of us were raised believing in "men don't hit women" which enables this sort of behavior. Women being aware of this fact often use that to their advantage.

That sounds like societal behavior more than masculine behavior. Don't hit women or anyone really because the big bad government has a gun to your head saying that's not okay. In matters of self defense however one should feel free to kick both men and women. This whole don't hit a woman bullshit is partly due to modern society's need for peace plus the need for men to treat women like children. "If a woman hits you don't hit back because you're the bigger man." as you will. Plenty of men still believe in violent child rearing so I'll allow you to put two and two together.

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It is dead and has been for at least 20 years now. Your mention of homophobia even proves my point - many societies in the past and even some today do their best to eliminate homosexuality to the point of putting homosexuals to death. Yet, despite all this, homosexuals have existed since forever, continue to exist and will be around until humanity goes extinct despite enormous societal pressure.

 

Oh, and complete androgen insensitivity syndrome doesn't mean you look like a feminine boy. You'll look like a woman, with a vagina but internal testes instead of ovaries as well as being infertile and with a personality so feminine most genetical women look like guys in comparison. Because women also produce small amounts of male hormones naturally, while someone with CAIS is characterized by a complete absence.

It's not dead, because homophobia is still a thing. And MAJOR thing. And there is increasing transphobia, because people REALLY do not like those who "break the rules"...

And how your looks or sexuality affects your mind? Care to elaborate? Why there is people, who look like typical men an women display an array of different traits, associated with both?

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It's not dead, because homophobia is still a thing. And MAJOR thing. And there is increasing transphobia, because people REALLY do not like those who "break the rules"...

And how your looks or sexuality affects your mind? Care to elaborate? Why there is people, who look like typical men an women display an array of different traits, associated with both?

I don't know what homophobia has to do with the topic at hand. If anything, homophobia is evidence that societal pressure has a limited impact on how people turn out, else homophobia would lead to no homosexuals existing yet they do.

 

It's not that looks determine your behavior, it's what causes your looks, i.e. genetics and hormones, also affects your mind. The mind is not some kind of magical, ethereal entity that exists independently from your body, the mind is what your central nervous system does.

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I don't know what homophobia has to do with the topic at hand.

Nor do feminists or SJWs but that is just how threads go I suppose.

 

If anything, homophobia is evidence that societal pressure has a limited impact on how people turn out, else homophobia would lead to no homosexuals existing yet they do.

But it has an impact nonetheless. Don't forget there is a dramatic irony here. 90% of homophobes are gay people. They wouldn't be so hung up over gay people if they weren't gay themselves.😜

I doubt they learned their homophobic behavior from the womb.

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Nor do feminists or SJWs but that is just how threads go I suppose.

But it has an impact nonetheless. Don't forget there is a dramatic irony here. 90% of homophobes are gay people. They wouldn't be so hung up over gay people if they weren't gay themselves.😜

I doubt they learned their homophobic behavior from the womb.

https://www.psypost.org/2017/06/straight-mens-physiological-stress-response-seeing-two-men-kissing-seeing-maggots-49217

Even arachnophobia, to a certain extent, is a genetic condition:

https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/is-arachnophobia-learned-or-an-inbuilt-instinct/

 

You can't wish for what you like and dislike, it simply is. You can't force yourself to like strawberries if you dislike them and consequently, liking strawberries doesn't mean that the strawberriarchy has brainwashed you into liking them. Society plays a role on how we act upon these urges but it doesn't erradicate or enforce these traits themselves. Shaming someone for liking strawberries won't make them dislike strawberries, even under threat of capital punishment but you'd see a lot less people enjoying strawberries in the open.

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https://www.psypost.org/2017/06/straight-mens-physiological-stress-response-seeing-two-men-kissing-seeing-maggots-49217

Even arachnophobia, to a certain extent, is a genetic condition:

https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/is-arachnophobia-learned-or-an-inbuilt-instinct/

 

You can't wish for what you like and dislike, it simply is. You can't force yourself to like strawberries if you dislike them and consequently, liking strawberries doesn't mean that the strawberriarchy has brainwashed you into liking them. Society plays a role on how we act upon these urges but it doesn't erradicate or enforce these traits themselves. Shaming someone for liking strawberries won't make them dislike strawberries, even under threat of capital punishment but you'd see a lot less people enjoying strawberries in the open.

I never said gay people should stop loving each other. That doesn't mean they are unable to learn other things. Hell if all traits were inherited there would be no need for schools. For example even gay people have to go through the barrier of consent to get the person or persons they want. You would be surprised how many people don't fully understand the concept of consent. Much like the kid stealing from the cookie jar. Teaching a person not to be gay is pointless as gay people act out of love thus are mostly harmless. Teaching a person not to be toxic is essential as toxicity is born out of hate and is best kept to a minimum to keep unwanted violence from happening.

 

Think of it this way. People may not like not being a piece of shit but it is the best way of not getting your ass beaten by somebody stronger than you.

 

P.S. I wish those homophobes luck finding the gay gene because it aint happening.😛

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7 hours ago, Darkpig said:

I never said gay people should stop loving each other. That doesn't mean they are unable to learn other things. Hell if all traits were inherited there would be no need for schools. For example even gay people have to go through the barrier of consent to get the person or persons they want. You would be surprised how many people don't fully understand the concept of consent. Much like the kid stealing from the cookie jar. Teaching a person not to be gay is pointless as gay people act out of love thus are mostly harmless. Teaching a person not to be toxic is essential as toxicity is born out of hate and is best kept to a minimum to keep unwanted violence from happening.

 

Think of it this way. People may not like not being a piece of shit but it is the best way of not getting your ass beaten by somebody stronger than you.

 

P.S. I wish those homophobes luck finding the gay gene because it aint happening.😛

I am not advocating for anything, I'm just talking about where things come from. Homophobia doesn't necessarily come from society, it may very well be that some people are born homophobic, just how some people have a disgust or fear of spiders. However, it's also true that in a society that emphasizes homophobia, some people who actually have homosexual tendencies are the worst offenders when it comes to homophobia, due to them wanting to blend in and not be found out.

 

What I find frustrating in the current discourse is that it's always implied from a certain group of people that everything is due to society fucking things up and nothing else. So, for example, because I don't have written the word homophobia quite enough yet, homophobes exist because society bad. It's the same with violence - many people think that you can remove certain behaviors, tendencies and urges if you just tweak society and culture enough, which is the same folly the gay conversion therapists fell into.

 

If you want do address a problem, it's important to understand what the problem actually is. You don't make people less homophobic by showing them gay couples over and over and at the same time, you don't make kids gay by showing them gay couples.

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from men thats mostly a result of cope due to being effeminate (or just self hating white liberals tbh)
from women its a judgement given aproristically if the man in subject is ugly. the same behavior they deem as -toxic- displayed by an attractive man will result in him being more attractive at their eyes (dark triad)

from a sociological perspective its a dialectic thats part of the critical theory attack on biological sex, after having deconstructed the concept of biological race and before reelaborating the concept of sexual orientation (we are getting there btw). the pattern is the same, there is no such thing as a well defined race/sex/sexual orientation, because "everything is in a spectrum, you cant tell when x definition ends and where y starts, you are a -shade-" et all. gotta love western universities jfl

 

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2 hours ago, GrimReaper said:

I am not advocating for anything, I'm just talking about where things come from. Homophobia doesn't necessarily come from society, it may very well be that some people are born homophobic, just how some people have a disgust or fear of spiders. However, it's also true that in a society that emphasizes homophobia, some people who actually have homosexual tendencies are the worst offenders when it comes to homophobia, due to them wanting to blend in and not be found out.

 

What I find frustrating in the current discourse is that it's always implied from a certain group of people that everything is due to society fucking things up and nothing else. So, for example, because I don't have written the word homophobia quite enough yet, homophobes exist because society bad. It's the same with violence - many people think that you can remove certain behaviors, tendencies and urges if you just tweak society and culture enough, which is the same folly the gay conversion therapists fell into.

 

If you want do address a problem, it's important to understand what the problem actually is. You don't make people less homophobic by showing them gay couples over and over and at the same time, you don't make kids gay by showing them gay couples.

I agree that you need to look at both internal factors and external factors when trying to fix these things. The internal part is currently being looked into by (insert science field related to brains). We are talking about the external part here given that 99% of loverslab likely aren't scientific experts in a field that is still largely unknown. Until there are effective methods to diagnose and cure such afflictions the best we can do is make sure people don't kill each other. For example if you can't stand the sight of two dudes making out then don't look at them. There is a difference between not my kink and hate the gays. Pursuing homophobic behavior to the point of battery and murder is only going to make you face the criminal justice system.

 

Also much like making kids straight making kids gay does not benefit society and should not be pursued.

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Keep reading posts from guys who've never been in a fist fight. That tells alot right there. I've seen guys become the best of friends after they fought each other some. Call it weird male bonding or something. More fist fights mean less war between guys. They have to get that shit out of their system or it will become something worse later on. Eventually, wanting to beat on some asshole becomes wanting to murder them.

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28 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

Keep reading posts from guys who've never been in a fist fight. That tells alot right there. I've seen guys become the best of friends after they fought each other some. Call it weird male bonding or something. More fist fights mean less war between guys. They have to get that shit out of their system or it will become something worse later on. Eventually, wanting to beat on some asshole becomes wanting to murder them.

With fist fights comes brain damage and other bodily harm so that's something to think about.

 

Still. I have heard somewhere that throughout history Sparta despite its strict training regimen was still much better than Athens so maybe there is something to this macho thing.

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12 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

Keep reading posts from guys who've never been in a fist fight. That tells alot right there. I've seen guys become the best of friends after they fought each other some. Call it weird male bonding or something. More fist fights mean less war between guys. They have to get that shit out of their system or it will become something worse later on. Eventually, wanting to beat on some asshole becomes wanting to murder them.

Diplomacy, reasoning, understanding and empathy. No, I have no 'shit' to get out of my system in the context of your statement. I've never been in a fist fight, once, in my 37 years on this Earth. This goes down to an individual level. Don't espouse this kind of idea as though every single male is like that or will become like that. When you do that, you're stereotyping. Or, some might even call it sexist 😮

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26 minutes ago, HalcyonAndOn said:

Diplomacy, reasoning, understanding and empathy. No, I have no 'shit' to get out of my system in the context of your statement. I've never been in a fist fight, once, in my 37 years on this Earth. This goes down to an individual level. Don't espouse this kind of idea as though every single male is like that or will become like that. When you do that, you're stereotyping. Or, some might even call it sexist 😮

As history has told us time and time again with the expression of war and conquest, violence is in our nature. There is no shame in having not gotten into a fist fight in one's lifetime, I would express that it is most likely more safe to have not fought another person physically. I on the other hand have gotten into a few, which I had little choice to avoid. I think if it can be done safely, consensually and with minimal injury, fighting is a healthy way to express yourself, like dancing or painting.

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8 hours ago, HalcyonAndOn said:

Diplomacy, reasoning, understanding and empathy

When there is nothing at stake for not doing so, then I find that most guys I've met don't much care for these things- especially where drugs, money or women are involved. No, the threat of physical violence is what keeps things civil between men. I'll admit that getting into a physical altercation should be the last resort, but not all guys play by the same rules. I grew up with more than a bit of a temper and fighting is just a thing where I live with lots of inflated egos looking to take much more than their share..

 

Besides, there just might come a time when you absolutely have no choice.

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To be honest I haven't heard of that shit until I saw it on the internet. Apparently being a manly man is bad and toxic. Ok lol

 

Oh fudge, it's almost time for my LE LATTE with fried sunflower seeds. Gosh. Eh, I can't fit into my sister's jeans any more. I guess I'll join the navy...

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On 12/27/2020 at 11:52 PM, KoolHndLuke said:

When there is nothing at stake for not doing so, then I find that most guys I've met don't much care for these things- especially where drugs, money or women are involved. No, the threat of physical violence is what keeps things civil between men. I'll admit that getting into a physical altercation should be the last resort, but not all guys play by the same rules. I grew up with more than a bit of a temper and fighting is just a thing where I live with lots of inflated egos looking to take much more than their share..

 

Besides, there just might come a time when you absolutely have no choice.

If you really want to be safe get a state of the art security system, don't forget the bullet proof windows or just skip the windows all together, take a bullet proof vest when shopping, have guns locked in a hidden compartment in your walls and take those shopping, also have a years supply of food rations. 

 

Stressing over defending yourself all the time is not healthy. Its actually kind of hilarious. Seeing people stock up on a years worth of toilet paper was just the highlight of 2020 next to that one guy who apparently said the government was long time friends with space aliens.

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On 12/27/2020 at 6:40 PM, Blehbreh said:

As history has told us time and time again with the expression of war and conquest, violence is in our nature. There is no shame in having not gotten into a fist fight in one's lifetime, I would express that it is most likely more safe to have not fought another person physically. I on the other hand have gotten into a few, which I had little choice to avoid. I think if it can be done safely, consensually and with minimal injury, fighting is a healthy way to express yourself, like dancing or painting.

It always depends on how you define a fight though.

Spoiler

 

 

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