What do you want in a "defeat" mod?

[Psalam]

Donttouchmethere and I got into a discussion of various defeat mods and what specifically made for a good defeat mod. As is not uncommon we did not see exactly eye to eye on the topic but we did agree that it would be interesting to get more opinions. So I started this thread and included a poll (I like polls but ignore it and just comment if you like). Please let me know what you want (theoretically) from a defeat mod. Please also feel free to plug a mod(s) that you already think "really does the job." 

[̖̪.]

Psalam ( look i write your name correct   )

You want to "update" SL Defeat?... or something like that?? :x...

 

Baka also wanted to "update" Defeat Animations :)...

Look at example: https://www.patreon.com/BaboFactory 

https://www.patreon.com/posts/happy-new-year-32776052

Spoiler

 

Im gonna show him this Topic ^_^

Maybe You can work together and make way better SL Defeat

 

Actually SL Defeat is only ONE mod i will always use from LL ^_^ my Fav.

 

Already said that to Baka, but if u need some scripts for SL Defeat maybe i can help :)...

 

 

 

Hmm... SL Defeat is already great Mod... idk what else than animations can be done better...

GL maybe u can add something great to already insane good mod

[panthercom]

 Mostly I'd like to see something that actually works reliably for the player and companions, anything else is a bonus.

[Yueviathan]

23 minutes ago, panthercom said:

 Mostly I'd like to see something that actually works reliably for the player and companions, anything else is a bonus.

That's the camp I'm in

[BobSempleton]

If you could do flower girls support that'd be amazing!

[Voldearag]

I want the ability to shrink defeated foes and feed them to my canine followers as rewards. Being able to enslave and start a weird companionship with everyone I meet is nice too though, even non-human opponents, but maybe that'd get tiresome and the dialog should only happen if we hit them in a special way when they're low health, like catching pokemon.

[legraf]

What I'd like to see is a defeat mod with quite bare-bones functionality, and optional (and swappable) scripts for addiitional functionality isolated from the main mod so we can have a solid, trustable core.

 

Personally, I only need defeat for the player-and-follower defeat; I use the option to "defeat" NPCs rarely, though for others it'll be critical.

 

I would (uncontroversially) advocate for a system built on three phase, with needs, requirements, and options as below:

1. Prevent death, calm opponents, need to recognize followers reliably.  Optionally, additional "knockdown" methods but not essential.
2. Immediate punishment for the defeat - item/gold theft, SL integration definitely, optionally ZAZ integration for locking in nearby furniture & whipping.  I would NOT make a big deal of "recover your items" mini-quests in the core mod - either sell them to a merchant as in Devious Followers, scatter them around the aggressors, or make them disappear.
   1. An add-on could add complexity here for those who desire.
   2. Since I'm dreaming, I'd like integration with blocking keywords (see my StripWhatYouMust), so the only stripped items are those that are in the way for the scene - I like partially-clothed scenes.
3. Long-term consequences: Usually, either tie players/followers with rope and dump them somewhere (see Devious Traps for a really nice implementation of that), or give a "calm" period for them to escape.  Optionally, integrate with Simple Slavery Plus.  Optionally here, DD device addition.  Depending on factions, possibly prison (POP?) integration.

 

[Heroine HoneyCrotch]

If your a male player, the ability to take defeated female back home, maybe try to give her a better life, should almost be top of list unless you want dominate slavery instead. I have been working on concubine addon for defeat just for that purpose. I don't want to kill Redguard Umana at Alftand Ruins, she's hot in my game. 

[Psalam]

32 minutes ago, Heroine of the Night said:

If your a male player, the ability to take defeated female back home, maybe try to give her a better life, should almost be top of list unless you want dominate slavery instead. I have been working on concubine addon for defeat just for that purpose. I don't want to kill Redguard Umana at Alftand Ruins, she's hot in my game. 

Yeah, that's why I have Paradise Halls.

[donttouchmethere]

2 hours ago, panthercom said:

reliably

Guess that's what was missing in the poll ?

[worik]

26 minutes ago, donttouchmethere said:

Guess that's what was missing in the poll ?

?

And a comment in regard to questions 2 and 3:

It's the support for mods that tell the tale WHAT happens after the defeat, that matters.

Support for a framework is just like a path to nowhere, if that point ☝️ is lost .

 

E.g. if I get defeated and want a POP integration, AFAIK no framework at all is needed. It's just that POP can be called to take over and that's it.

If I defeat a bandit opponent, POP might help someday to turn the vile criminal in and give me some money. But until that's done, POP would be useless for that scenario.

☝️ These examples can show how much the tale matters.

IF the defeat mod decides to tell it's own tales (which I would limit to the obvious ones like basic DA), SL would be the only hard requirement that I would rely on.

[Lostdreamer]

To answer your questions in more detail, how I use Defeat (my current defeat mod) is:

 

Hard 'A': 'Primarily an alternative to dying and ending my game.'

I have many, many other mods that mess with gameplay difficulty. Devious Devices for example, or encounter mods that spawn more enemies, etc. As a result, the difficulty curve in my build is all over the place. The 'Defeat' mods core purpose is to moderate this by providing a fail state - if I get my ass kicked, I don't have to reload a save / work out how I survive some encounter balanced for L70 juggernaughts / lose several hours gameplay / etc / etc. I get my ass kicked, get punished, have to fall back and recover - and then I can either re-visit the encounter spelled up to the hilt bringing every can of whoop ass I own, or I can just go and play elsewhere making a note to return when I have a few levels / avoid that situation entirely from now on.

It should not derail gameplay entirely by dropping me into some random sub/slavery senario that is a pita to get out of - again, I have other mods for that job if I want it.

This also allows me to set the combat difficulty higher as I'm not constantly reloading the game every time I lose a fight - I can actually get my ass kicked and be punished for it without it being Game Over.

 

'C': 'I can live without other mod integration'

I have a lot of other LL mods, and Defeat is free to trigger events from them if it wishes. Random sex sequences, skooma whore drugs, Devious Devices, etc. There should after all, probably be some consequences to losing the fight. BUT it isn't essential- all of these mods are quite capable of triggering their own events when they want. Also, This shouldn't result in an hour long sex or bondage sequence - that interuption to play is almost precisely what I am using a Defeat mod to avoid. Nor should it rob me of my equipment, because again - having no sword pretty much stops gameplay.

 

'E': 'No frameworks are necessarily important in the defeat mod itself.'

See above. I have no problems with there being consquences to losing the fight and it triggering random unfortunate events, but they are not a hard requirement and should not prevent continuing play.

 

'C': 'Follower integration would be handy but I could live without it'

I will usually have a couple of followers with me because Devious Followers is ace and because Devious Devices / Sexlab Wear & Tear et al are all quite capable of gimping me to the point where I need followers around just to survive. It would be nice if the mod didn't curveball them entirely. But, well, followers do get confused and lost on occasion so I would expect they should catch up with me of their own accord.

 

TLDR:

I use a Defeat mod to stop my game becoming impossible and unplayable due to Devious Devices, Random mass encounters, wierd mod conflicts, etc. All it actually needs to do is fade to black and teleport me the feck out of the encounter.

Ending up in an inn/temple and triggering other fun (and detremental) LL mod events are a bonus.

Enslaving me, taking my hard to find gear, or dropping me into long annoying 'escape' sequences are all deal breakers.

[karlpaws]

Followers do not figure that high in my games, though I do recognize that being able to handle them would be important for most players.  Strictly speaking, preventing death/reload is simple enough with all of the "make the player essential" mods, a defeating mod needs to look beyond that. So far, I've gotten by with Sexlab Leveling, since it does have a defeat/rape and assault/rape features with a configurable health percentage for the player and target NPC.

 

I should probably re-install Paradise Halls again.  I liked the capture mechanics and ability to "kill" bandit chiefs for a bounty but keep them around.

 

What I'd like to see the most are options for male and female PCs to pick or create a set of criteria, especially females for assaulting a defeated male.  Male PC on female NPC generally works with most aggressive animations but I find female on male require a few limitations.  Even if you're playing a male PC and get jumped by some female bandits or a powerful chief, ancient vampire or Cryomage.  I'd like the option to add a "femdom" tag to any cowgirl or face sitting animations and let a defeat mod use them for my female PC assaulting an NPC.

[Grey Cloud]

There's a 'Russian' re-jig of Defeat available on the Defeat support thread.

Then there's Submit.

Latterly there is Dragonborn in Distress.

 

None of them do what I want which is a simple defeat the miscreant, have sex then either kill them or hand them in for a bounty. Any two out of those three would work for me. ?

I don't want them defeating me and I certainly don't want to be arsing about escaping and/or losing my gear etc.

 

Oh and I don't want to be installing ten other mods to make this one mod work.

[afa]

For me player essential and handling of followers are must. Leading up to sex scene is also important.

After than I think it might be easier to leave the mod open to other scenario integration and then build those separately or lead into other mods.

legraf pretty much nails most of it.

 

I think an even more strip down and modular approach would be the core of the mod is a way to prevent death, take into account of followers' status (fighting or down,) then pass the baton along to available scenarios almost to the point it is basically a focus version of Death Alternative.

That's when the robbing, enslaving, DD, can all play, even the sex scene can be off load here.

 

Rather than integrating mods I think at times it is more important to figure out how to block off activators from other mods say approach or solicitation from triggering while enemies are calmed and scenes are playing.

 

There is also this older thread:

https://www.loverslab.com/topic/107147-what-sort-of-features-would-you-like-in-a-new-combat-rape-mod/

[Grey Cloud]

Death alternatives:

1. Don't get into a fight you can't win

2. Runaway (very fast)

3. Reload

4. 70 followers ?

5. TGM

[Corsayr]

Really the number one item is deter vanilla death. 

 

After that, it needs consequences

 

Assault, Robbery, that sort of thing

 

It would be nice if it handled followers 

Best case an add down feature where the fight isn't over till everyone including followers and summoned helpers are all down.

But at least do something with the followers during consequences. Like assault them too, or tie them up during your assault or something really. (one of Naked Dungeons failings is that the follower just stands around and watches during the assault part.)

 

Some kind of aftermath

It weird when they all just walk away and you can get up and go after them again. 

Left for dead (wake up in some rando location outside)

rescued and wake up in a nearby inn

simple slavery

left locked in bondage furniture (some kind of escape minigame)

 

Be able to handle assaults as singles or gang bangs both humanoid and creature

 

frosting on the cake options

Add DD or Zap items to victims

Add Slavetats to victims (Though I think rapetats does this already as long as the player is marked as a victim)

 

 

[merctime]

I'm gonna chime in here.  

 

I'm a total Skyrim noob; been only playing it and trying to mod it for about 2 weeks now.  I know, I know.... But I played the FUCK outta Oblivion and used a million mods from it from this very site (and the site, 'Wolflore', before Ashal made this site), years ago.

 

For me, I just want a 'simple combat rape/submit' mod.  Nothing that requires 5 other mods to get it sorted/make it work.... With, of course, those 5 other mods each having a different set of dependencies themselves that need to clutter my load order with stuff I could barely care about in the first place.

 

I don't want or need DD mods, or death alternative.  I get that some love that stuff!  And that's great, I hope they provide the most fun for those players!  But what about those of us who don't want them?

 

How about a mod that JUST adds the ability for NPC's to choose to defeat-rape my female NPC, or the ability for my male NPC to defeat-rape enemies?  One that is gangbang aware and/or checks the players list of activated sex animations?

 

Oh, I've got followers?  Then I hope the mod takes them into account. 

 

But there's a million follower mods, what about those of us who only use Nether follower framework, for example?

 

Oh, there's monsters/creatures?

 

How about an MCM page that allows the PLAYER to choose which are 'activated' and which aren't (some of us aren't into beastiality, but kinda think the idea of a goblin/reikling gangraping a 6 foot nord bitch is hot as fuck, lol).

 

Really, my personal hope is for something that is SIMPLE.  A combat rape/submit mod that does NOT require the 'phonebook' of all the most current, popular slavery mods (DD, death alternative, cursed loot stuff, everything else in the whole world; Perhaps offereing awareness of those via additional 'patches'/extra .esp's to the main, virgin, does-not-require-shit-to-use mod).

 

Edit:  Like Corsayr says above, if this mod was 'slavetat' aware and allowed someone to have thier player tatted after combat defeat/rape, or to add tats to those that they've defeated, that would be an AWESOME option.

 

 

[Oh shit WTF]

I kinda want this situation where the attacker asks you to give up once your follower gets defeated. and then you get an option to keep fighting or surrender instead of surrendering willingly.

[DonQuiWho]

I have little problem with the existing Defeat version(s), the most reliable one being the Russian chap's with the Bane etc fixes.  Getting it to work reasonably consistently seems to depend on how well you use the 'cleanup' options after the conclusion of any round of combat and the next starting

 

For any future mod handling the same basic events, ie combat victory and defeat:

 

 

1 - Wouldn't want to lose the current 'Player as Victor' option.  There's not much else like that, and PAHE does NOT provide an equivalent.  For some games, I'd then end up having to use both, with Goubo's for that feature only

 

 

2 - As at present, post any other immediate 'NPC victor/ PC vanquished' Sexlab outcomes, simple endpoints should include

• application of DDs
• theft
• some simple 'move on from here' mechanism, that doesn't dump you next to Paarthurnax or the equivalent every time

along with definable risks for more challenging (soft dependency) outcomes, necessary to provide a real degree of unpredictability and risk to the combat end result, such as

• transfer to Simple Slavery,
• Jail Time, eg via POP or similar,
• enslavement such as through Slaverun Reloaded
• sale to a suitably Devious Follower
• transfer to Chain Beast capture
• something like the leash game that was included in Sexlab Framework, if anyone can make such a thing work properly

ie, anything else that provided an entertaining diversion from the main quests, that you have to work out how get round/get out of

 

 

3 - If any future mod stopped handling followers, for a lot of people it may then well end up being worse than useless

 

 

In short, Defeat Redux, ? but working slightly more efficiently

 

(Kimy's Combat Defeat basically does much of that already, but at last time of using, the outcomes could give results that were too extreme to be manageable/credible.  eg, being dumped out of the last chamber in a Falmer/Dwarven dungeon to a hillside on the other side of Skyrim, and having to get back to the original dungeon start, to then work through an empty shell, scores pretty low on the 'fun' factor scale.  I'm trying the latest version of Dragonborn in Distress again, but I'm struggling to yet get it to do some of the things that it says on the tin.  Probably my setup is squiff, but I really liked the first version, apart from its follower handling, and I'm hoping this is as good)

[Wolfstorm321]

In my opinion, a defeat mod would be great if your character could surrender, like what happens in the Combat Surrender mod with the npcs. Then the npc would decide if he lives or not.

Different situations could be configurable through a MCM menu, leaving to the player the choice of what outcomes could come from defeat.

 

For example, there could be a situation where both your character and his followers surrender, and a situation where your character dont surrender, but falls unconscious, and when he wakes up, he discovers some of his followers had surrendered and taken into captivity, while the others were unconscious like he was. Or he could fall unconscious and be taken into captivity, while his followers do not.

 

This could happen randomly upon death, and in both cases, you would have two different quests, one to escape from captivity, and another to rescue your followers (the ones who were captured). The one quest to escape could also works like in Mount and Blade, where days pass quickly until someone rescue your characters (or you could use the wait function). This someone could be a law enforcer or even your other followers (who were not in the first fight, but were part of your team, or then, they were in the fight, but fleed when you surrendered).

 

In relation to followers, a social variable could be used, so that if you surrender, you lose points with your followers, and if you rescue them, you gain points.

In my opinion, is critical to have a defeat and capture mod integrated with follower frameworks, like iAFT for example. In some cases, your character will not be able to escape. Lets say you were not carrying any lockpicks, who will rescue you? Your followers, who were not in the battle, or who were not captured.

[Code Serpent]

I really need to get in contact with the Simple Slavery guy so I can figure out how to connect Dragonborn in Distress to it.

[Corsayr]

Just now, Code Serpent said:

I really need to get in contact with the Simple Slavery guy so I can figure out how to connect Dragonborn in Distress to it.

@Lozeak was doing simple slavery for a while, but he is currently on hiatus, so I think it is currently looking for a manager. 

[Psalam]

10 hours ago, Code Serpent said:

I really need to get in contact with the Simple Slavery guy so I can figure out how to connect Dragonborn in Distress to it.

If you find that out please post it here or let me know by PM.

[nemocdt]

The main thing i want is for my followers to not kill the target once they are in 'defeat state' and to allow multiple defeats per engagement without followers killing the defeated. it's so damn frustrating when being attacked by multiple bandits to put the your target into Defeat state and continue to clear the rest of the bandits out only to have my followers run up and kill the target before the fun begin's.

Defeat has functions Pahe does not such as "put in sack" makes transporting slaves so much easier

Even though i play more as a Dom / Slaver and not a Defeated / Sub i prefer Defeat over Pahe

but i use them both but i have never thought either mod mastered situation functionalities for me and my style of play.

but with these mods i can basically work as i want with any Character build male or female.

 

I have always wanted to use executions but have yet to do so and have never found a decent Prisoner / slave trade mod or even location.

My tastes are really quite vanilla and really have no need for player defeat functions as my players are always Dom.

After writing all this i have realized  i need a Slavery / Crime and punishment / Bounty Hunter mod that has some Defeat features and functionality for npc's on followers and vice versa not a defeat mod. 

 

Edit: I would love to see a slave chain feature for transporting multiple prisoners behind a horse,

although pahe's system system for slave submission works well i find it frustrating to be chasing them about and wandering off. (it's a great feature but it's not for me)

a balliff's office for handing over bounties for execution / torture / whatever, and decent slave market and possibly economy for putting slaves to work. 

(more of an add on i know)

but mostly followers to not kill npc's in defeat state before i can enslave them to allow multiple defeats per engagement.