Devious Followers - Continued

[HexBolt8]

54 minutes ago, finalfrog said:

1 hour ago, bubba999 said:

Thank you. They are really nice. Have you thought about doing them for Sub Lola? 

I've been considering it!

Getting off-topic, but to save you some trouble, I don't think voiced dialog is a good fit for Sub Lola because I frequently add new lines and modify existing ones.  Additionally, some players follow the process that the mod describes to replace "Lola" in dialog with whatever name they want, so then the voiced lines would be wrong.  I'm glad that it seems to be working out well for Devious Followers, though.

[Herowynne]

12 minutes ago, HexBolt8 said:

Sub Lola because I frequently add new lines and modify existing ones.

 

I have discovered playing with voiced SLS and voiced DFC that voiced dialogue really adds a lot to the experience.

 

I would love to hear voiced dialogue for SubLola! That would be so awesome!

 

But I can sympathize with @HexBolt8 that these wonderful voice packs created for mods might cause mod authors to be reluctant to tinker with or add dialogue.

 

Here's hoping that better tools are developed, which can enable a command-line batch process from ESP file to .fuz files, thereby making it easy for mod authors to re-generate .fuz files with each release.

[finalfrog]

2 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

Getting off-topic, but to save you some trouble, I don't think voiced dialog is a good fit for Sub Lola because I frequently add new lines and modify existing ones.  Additionally, some players follow the process that the mod describes to replace "Lola" in dialog with whatever name they want, so then the voiced lines would be wrong.  I'm glad that it seems to be working out well for Devious Followers, though.

Yeah that's fair. Also I did a quick start on an attempt and I noticed that a number of the responses have "New Response.wav" as their wav file. I'm guessing you do some of your dialogue editing in xEdit (I do the same whenever possible, anything to avoid the CK), which doesn't populate the voice file entry like the CK. I did some testing and the only fix appears to be deleting the old responses text entry and adding new ones, which... yeah, not gonna ask you to do that.

 

2 hours ago, Herowynne said:

Here's hoping that better tools are developed, which can enable a command-line batch process from ESP file to .fuz files, thereby making it easy for mod authors to re-generate .fuz files with each release.

Right now the only part of the process which requires the CK is the dialogue export process. I think it should be possible to do with an xEdit script, but I'm not sure I'm the person for the job, at least not until I've had more experience with the scripting language.

 

The part which is unfortunately impossible to automate reliably is converting the text of the mod from a format intended to be read to a format which will get xVASynth to speak the spoken parts of the text. Sometimes a word surrounded by ** indicates a sound effect, other times it's used for emphasis. In the first case the word should be deleted, in the second depending on the tone you need to either just remove the *'s or change the word to all caps. And like translations there's not one "right" answer.

 

If a mod was designed from conception to be compatible with voice synth, then that would be different, since these sort of manual tweaks would be baked in (outside of pronunciation tweaks which could be automated). You could even make it easy to generate and release differential voice patches  by performing a diff of the dialogue export between releases and only regenerating the lines which have changed.

 

But yeah, this is all probably getting off-topic. I'll create a thread in the general discussion forum to talk more about voice synth support in general.

 

Edit: Let's move xVASynth discussion here:

 

[jammingserver1]

Quote

@jammingserver1, thanks for an interesting post.

Thanks for reading it in the first place. It can be easy to get carried away with rants that don't add much to the discussion at hand ? .  Now, about that...

You thought the first post was long? Oh dear. Seriously, you can just jump to the last two spoilers for the implementation details. The rest are vague design considerations.

 

Quote

Should DFC be tracking all those one-time-only experiences and creating lasting and cumulative consequences for them?

 

TLDR: I realized that that would be too specific to fit with the mod's design of general, modular, reusable content. A trait which naturally makes DFC viable as a potential base for more unique mods to expand on it.

Spoiler

For arbitrary continuity, we need to track arbitrary past experiences. But we're in Skyrim, where opening a door has a 10% chance of summoning Alduin, or worse, thirsty patrolling bandits. That randomness puts a cap to the achievable continuity of our character anyway. So a story relating to the player must be either generic enough to allow for some derailing, or put up endless 'BUSINESS IN PROGRESS, KEEP OUT' signs until all the quests are finished.

 

Devious Followers Continued takes that lesson of general-use to heart, allowing the player (at least in the beginning) to play the base game beneath it while it's long-term effects come into play. The only reason the mass of existing mechanics does not devour your mod-maintaining soul (yet...?), is because none of them care TOO much about getting derailed by the noise in the current location, they just add their own weight on top periodically.  The player's position is less defined by tracking past states of specific situations, where a single bugged giant could define the rest of the character development, and more by the current combination of generic components of varying durations. Composition over cumulation.

 

It trades off elaborately themed, continuous story arcs to get robust, reusable, interactive game mechanics.

Your question made me realize that non-reusable events building a detailled character progression are probably too specific to fit the mod's core design, as much as I would love to see them. The only way to keep the complexity manageable would be to severely limit the unique scenes available, leading to a loss in theme range of the base mod.

 

At best, a 'Deidre' mod (?) or any longer-arching progression story between characters could provide it's own handful of unique events and 3-5 progression tiers giving the player and follower unique depth, then simply change the DFC configuration of expected deals/available deals according to the current tier and a broad 'tone/personality template' which makes DFC's tone more fitting to the current tier, using its functionality as a starting point to put it's individual narrative touch upon. For this, it would be enough to only provide a minimal 'template variety' in DFC - a single, optional line of dialogue upfront before making a deal, detached from the deal dialogue, so the loving, equal spouse and the brutally overbearing enslaving mercenary don't sound 100% identical in the process of deal negotiation, but avoiding to have to branch out every deal dialogue.

 

 

So what can be done within the limits of DFC, if we can't get specific enough for a long, unique story? How detailled can archetypes/personality type templates get before we lose re-use value and are in the territory of 'this is great, but it doesn't fit into this mod or it's going to bloat to death'?

 

TLDR: handful of tone-setting, reusable templates disconnected from the general dialogues. look at a section further below with the detailled archetype template ideas.

Spoiler

 

Within DFC, it has become clear that modularity beats everything in the long run; and as it continues to grow, the question where to make the cuts on the corners of the mod becomes more interesting, where to hand over responsibility to some other mod in the ecosystem, and where to keep the monopole of its dynamics. The replacement of classic deals with modular deals, the enslavement-handover-api, the 'harsh-punishment' event API, the use of licenses as an additional external progression arc... these all further improve this idea of both reusability, and interplay where other mods are responsible with fleshing out more specific environments, and some further overarching story, while DFC provides templates broad enough to apply, yet detailed enough to stand on their own.

 

Now that I realized the gap between the mods we dreamed of, and DFC, where to set the limits of scope?

 

I believe that by simply exposing settings for 'amount of expected deals' and 'available sets of deals' (so that the set of options can keep getting worse), one could push most of the headache of unique stories/finetuned-personality-archetypes into some other mod's codebase if it proves too stubborn to be fit into the existing system. Making definitions of archetypes, unique events and guided-progression-arcs extensible/tuneable by simply controlling rough deal-guidance from the outside through these parameters, even if only from another mod belonging to DFC, seems a possible maintenance solution, but could also be a bad decision depending on the architecture or your future plans for 'guided-deal-progressions'. At worst, it's a good excuse to move on to other things: "Character doesn't fit your headcanon? 'Sadist' arc progresses too slow? Make your own progression/character archetype!" At best, it makes 99% of the needed functionality reusable for making a dedicated Deidre mod/other unique character.

 

 

Follower personalities and archetypes, especially, seem a great opportunity to answer this question of 'where to cut', 'where to hand over', and 'what to include'.

Everything too complicated and detailled to be reusable, should be externalized as individual mod. This includes most long-term story progressions too specific to a certain character trait and relationship progress, like the mods we both dreamed of. However, some basic 'setting outlines', simple comments by the follower, can serve a wide range of themes, and those can be included in DFC - barebones enough to be flexibly used by various guided-deal-arcs,  detailled enough to spark some headcanon or fit into a more elaborate, unique follower mod plugging into DFC's rich functionality if someone wants to make one later. You already had some ideas of personality trait templates when thinking about guided-deal-arcs: 'Controlling', 'Adoring', 'Sadistic', 'Humiliating', 'Nightmare',.. These could also be templates for slight variations for the tone of the mod.

 

 

The challenge is then transformed from extending code functionality of a single, growing mod, to cleverly design a minimal number of  'follower personality/tone' style templates for the player's imagination to pick up on, minimizing clash of different tones, and telling other mods to take over for world-setting flavour specifics if the templates aren't enough for them. These 'personality flavor' templates can be as simple as single interjections between the actual deal dialogues. I hope my suggestions below can clarify what I mean.

 

 

 

How can those tone/personality templates be implemented without blowing up the existing dialog trees?

 

TLDR: Single-Dialog-Event injected somehere in front of negotiation, and somehere afterwards. Minimal change to existing dialog trees.  Use archetype templates only where they make sense.

Spoiler

Flavor-setting-dialog-examples:

 

This builds off of ideas discussed before, such as replacing 'debt' with 'duty' or 'contribution'. However, it should be much less work than re-making all the dialog trees.

For the rough first 'half' of the player's downfall, their original type of relation to the follower has significant impact. The follower's personality/demands don't have an effect on the tone.

For the rough second 'half' of the player's downfall, the original relation to the follower doesn't have an impact. The follower's personality/demands have an effect on the tone.

This separation further reduces the amount of outcomes, ie. work. There's no 'humiliating' template since all of the personalities use humiliation to some extent to get the ball rolling in the first place.

 

INITIAL RELATIONSHIP TEMPLATES: (only one applies, for simplicity's sake)

Spouse

Housecarl

Guild Member/Friend/Ally

Hired Follower/Mercenary

 

PERSONALITY TEMPLATES: (only one applies, for simplicity's sake)

Controlling/Obsessive

Adoring

Greedy

Narcistic

Cruel/Disregarding

Sadistic

Generic - Fallback (Humiliating)

 

MINIMUM IMPLEMENTATION:

The minimum work to implement these differing tones is the following:

 

After a cooldown of some hours, the next time when initiating a deal/demand negotiation, a rough check is done on the player's willpower or general state, for 'are they a pushover already yes/no'

If player is no pushover yet/has willpower, the INITIAL RELATIONSHIP TEMPLATE is used.

If player is already a pushover, the PERSONALITY TEMPLATE is used.

Then, an according 'interjection' is said as dialogue, giving the negotiation some rough context.

Then, the normal deal-negotiation-dialogues are done as usual.

After the negotiation or process has finished, a last 'quip' (single line of subtitled dialog, as player has left the dialog menu) comments on their current 'relationship status.

 

If it is not easily possible to chain these events directly into the dialog process, they can also happen a bit separately before and after the dialog, whenever there's time to conveniently plug them in. In the worst case, they can be entirely out of the dialog menu, just subtitles occasionally playing while the player is doing things.

 

 

Quote

One-off unique content does have value, but could this (kind of) scenario be altered to be more reusable?

TLDR: open spoiler for all the detailled examples and clarification.

 

Spoiler

My idea behind it was for it to be entirely reusable.

The core point of my 'quests' sketch was simply to put a little piece of additional story into a 'deal' to tell the player where the follower currently thinks they stand/what they can get away with. You already made great suggestions on making the content more repeatable, that was indeed what I wanted to convey. But in fact, there does not have to be any mini-story content in between 'A' and 'C' of the pattern all, which makes it entirely modular and adaptable to any sort of content, of any tier of intensity or dominance. Every event using the pattern can be left out, implemented, or even expanded upon, depending on how much work one wants to put in it. I used this pattern below for the personality-template-quotes, but that's not necessary either.

 

Archetype-Specific-Content Pattern:

 

Part A : Reasoning there's a single claim the follower makes, looking at how the player reacts to it, which is half outlandish, half putting the player down. There might be an option for the player to answer, or none, simply proceeding with the game. If agreed to,  it means 'accepting their suggestions', the follower gets more daring as they feel the player puts more weight on their opinion. (that can make the follower one 'step' more demanding,  or start a quest, or lower willpower, or have no effect at all). Optional extension: Player can risk to speak out against follower, leading to some extra work/cost, but keeping willpower/pride. Player answer options: 'I'm not sure.' (Disagree), 'I guess so.' (Agree) 'Hmm.' (Reluctance, counted by the follower as success)

 

Part B : entirely optional. Can be nothing, a deal, a gamble, a miniquest, a demand.

 

Part C : The new position If player has reacted negatively to A, follower reasons along the lines 'You're not taking suggestions. I'm grumpy.'  But the follower acts as if it hadn't been important at all, more a broad question of principle/attitude, to make the player forget as fast as possible that there was a significant disagreement. Optional extension: The follower will be one step less 'daring' for a short while, and if they try something again, it will be more subtle/cautious, giving the player less opportunity to speak up openly.

If player has accepted the claim in A, follower says a line to reinforce the new 'relationship' they want the player to think they have. Optional extension: This can lead to a higher deal-expectance, expecting more gambles to be taken regularly, or just generally the follower becoming one step more 'daring', or have no effect at all.

 

All of these things are already in DFC in some form. The only thing I'd love is to make A and C have some creative, horribly-loose argumentations the follower thinks of to make their next demand make perfect sense, which work in gaslighting a low-debt player. This also seems the easiest/laziest point to show the follower's character/archetype/demands, by simply switching their line of argument leading to their new entitlement.  Also, these argumentations can be simplified to fit all archetypes, and just have random lines of arguments chosen. In reality, the most relevant one will be the 'Mercenary/Hired Follower' template, the others are just to get the point across.

 

 

 

 

The Examples

 

The following examples use both the pattern described here, and serve as personality templates described in the former section. It is not necessary to combine these two.

 

Minimal examples:

Spoiler

Tier 0: Nudging

Spouse:

'It is a long tradition of partnership in Skyrim to prove one's trust in their partners by the choice of clothing. I think that collars are especially wonderful.'

Disagree -> 'Looks like we have to work on your taste. No matter, there are other ways to express a partnership.'

Agree ->  'Indeed! Then again, there's many things that look great on you...' (Optional: Could proceed to some wearing dare)

 

Housecarl:

'Your duty is to serve the hold that honored you. My duty is to make sure you're not making trouble instead.'

Disagree -> 'I don't think you understand the nature of our obligations yet.'

Agree -> 'Good. Only fools abandon their duties.'

 

Ally/Friend/Guildmember:

'I think my allegiance deserves some good will.'

Disagree -> 'Loyalty twists before it tears.'

Agree -> 'Good to see you understand my position.'

 

Hireling/HiredMercenary:

'You know that this isn't worth my pay.'

Disagree -> 'Profit finds a way.'

Agree -> 'I'm sure we'll find something of value.'

 

Tier 1:Guilttripping

Spouse:

'You haven't paid enough attention lately. I am entitled to some compensation.'

(Something bad happens to the player.)

Afterwards: 'It's good to spend some time helping each other.'

 

Housecarl:

'You have coasted on your titles in disregard to the hold.'

(Something bad happens to the player.)

Afterwards: 'Honor is lost so easily, but there are ways to earn it back.'

 

Ally/Friend/Guildmember:

'You've stretched our purpose too far to your whims.'

(Something bad happens to the player.)

Afterwards: 'The bonds of friendship don't break easy.'

 

Hireling:

'You held back my pay and skimped on meals. Let's make sure you don't forget again...'

(Something bad happens to the player.)

Afterwards: 'Nothing like a refreshing reminder of contract details.'

 

 

Tier 2: Gaslighting

Spouse: 'You keep forgetting your promises! Our marriage is built on trust!'

(Excuse to start a mini-quest.)

Afterwards: 'You've barely made up for the last week.'

 

Housecarl:

'Your attitude is a disgrace to your title. You even insult the hold in your sleep! My lesson will be merciful this time.'

(Escuse to start a mini-quest.)

Afterwards: 'You have a long way to pay for the gifts of the hold.'

 

Ally/Friend/Guildmember:

'You keep betraying those relying on you. I saw that trick back there. How about a lesson on principles!'

(Escuse to start a mini-quest.)

Afterwards: 'Your character needs refinement.'

 

Hireling:

'That's another time you keep falling in my back. Don't think I won't notice!'

(Escuse to start a mini-quest.)

Afterwards: 'You slow down my path too often.'

 

Tier 3: Leadership

Spouse:

''You've recklessly taken our ship too far to the cliffs. I'll have to set the course for now.'

(Excuse to start long-term suppressive/controlling behaviour.)

Afterwards: 'You'd be lost without me, and you can't even see it.'

 

Housecarl:

'Your arrogance has tried the patience of the hold long enough. Your will is forfeit.'

(Excuse to start long-term suppressive/controlling behaviour.)

Afterwards: 'You didn't serve the hold fit for your title, so you will serve another way.'

 

Ally/Friend/Guildmember:

'Your failure to handle matters is appalling. A firm hand will get you back in the sun.'

(Excuse to start long-term suppressive/controlling behaviour.)

Afterwards: 'If it wasn't for my guidance, you'd be dead off a cliff by now.'

 

Hireling:

'You're squandering our options. I earned you enough, now you'll earn for me!'

(Excuse to start long-term suppressive/controlling behaviour.)

Afterwards: 'If I wasn't so generous, you'd be lower than a dog.'

 

 

 

 

Tier 5: Personality (from here on, the original relationship type is irrelevant.)

Controlling/Obsessive:

'The shorter your leash, the more reliable you become.'

(Horrible things happen.)

Afterwards: 'The chains of fate. Just tight enough.'

 

Adoring:

'You look cute when you listen.'

(Horrible things happen.)

Afterwards: 'How sweet to see a beautiful face pay attention.'

 

Greedy:

'I'm trying to figure out how to actually get something from this investment.'

(Horrible things happen.)

Afterwards: ''Be glad for your gear. It puts your worth above zero.'

 

Narcistic:

'You better show some appreciation. My presence is your blessing.'

(Horrible things happen.)

Afterwards: 'If only you could grasp how lucky you are to serve me.'

 

 

Cruel/Disregarding:

'Your breath is wasteful. Back into the dirt.'

(Horrible things happen.)

Afterwards: 'This rabble wouldn't fill a soulgem.'

 

Sadistic:

'Fear. It suits your future.'

(Horrible things happen.)

Afterwards: 'Pain builds character. Not that you'll use it.'

 

Generic - Fallback (Humiliating):

'A weak mind in a soft body.'

(Horrible things happen.)

Afterwards: 'Training is the first step to worth. Keep walking.'

 

 

 

Enough is enough?!:

 

Spoiler

Don't get me started.

How could a mod like Deidre build off of that...

Think of those old choose-your-own-story books (people still read books?) - you make a single numeric tier list 1-6. 6 is where the player starts, daring to have own opinions. 4 is where the follower always is. Or make it 10, if you have the design stamina. Then you give each tier a characteristic relationship. Then you find a unique little mini-story getting from the upper tier to the lower one. Then you make the follower force the player into habitually repeating new behaviour appropriate to the new stage. Then you find a little scene showing the player-character's new, shifted mindset and 'frame of normality' through the actions they are aware of as 'possible' in a given problem. Voila! You can even skip some stages at random during play and replace them with generic happenings, or put some unique flags+conditioning+followups in between. And there we go, the entire progression fleshed out, complete with all flavor text and scene-setting. Now, we let the mod dig into the internal settings of DFC, setting the correct 'debt', 'available deals', 'expected deals', 'follower-boredom',  and 'follower-archetype-template' fitting to the tier, and we got our mod.

 

Now, about that, I- (gets dragged away from keyboard by forum police)

 

 

 

--EDITed out a typo. Probably more to find.

[Lupine00]

5 hours ago, jammingserver1 said:

You thought the first post was long?

Longish, as Dr Seuss would say.

 

To provide a little insight into my thinking...

 

What are the purposes of personalities in DFC? What objective do they serve?

Spoiler

Creates a framework for adding more content variations, extending replayability.

Creates a loose system of genre categories for sexual kinks.

Add a little immersion - not all followers are alike - they have distinguishable differences.

 

The most important value is probably the second one. The personality types that exist are designed to be distinctive, but also to fit easily into play styles and kinks.

That's why something like "narcissistic" isn't a type. Any follower personality could be more or less narcissistic; that doesn't matter. The sort of question being answered are things like  "do they like bondage, or prefer inflicting pain?"

 

You can consider this more broadly: what player purpose does each personality type fit?

 

The personality types:

•  default - pure random behavior - the baseline - exactly how DFC was prior to adding this feature
•  slaver - goal number one: enslave PC
•  profiteer - make more money, avoid things that interfere with money making
•  sexy - likes sex and bondage and also more sex
•  sadist - likes to make misery for the PC
•  moral - has a strict code, may be prudish or judgmental but more likely to be honest
•  nightmare - all the worst things, sometimes randomly

 

 

A follower has only one personality type, but they have six personality stats that are randomly generated based on their personality type.

 

The personality stat values:

Spoiler

These range from 1 to 100.

• Aggression
• Greed
• Honor
• Lust
• Control
• Playful

The stat values are biased by the personality type, but can vary even within that. They are the value that will be tested for conditions, decisions and gating in most cases. Occasionally the base personality type might be considered. For example, in the Lola enslavement, the base days comes from the personality type, but the submission target comes from the Control stat.

 

Why these personality types and not others?

Spoiler

The default is for players who don't really care and are happy to see what happens and roll with it. If it's different each time, then that's fun/interesting... Or for players who don't really want personality features in their game.

 

The slaver is for players who like the idea of being pushed into slavery more than anything else. For them, DFC is about the threat of slavery, and slavery experiences that occur as a result. Control is the real determiner.

 

The profiteer is for players who want to use DFC foremost as a cash sink. Greed is the real determiner.

 

The sexy type is for players who want to see their character sexualized, objectified, and who like to watch lots of SexLab scenes. It's not quite a "bimbo" path, as there's no need for the PC to be dumb, but the follower is not going to care much about their adventuring or mental capabilities; that's not how they get satisified. Lust and playful both provide the real determination of how the follower fits in this role.

 

The sadist type is for players who like to watch more BDSM scenes. Probably, they like to see whipping, shocking, spanking, furniture use, beastiality, filth, and the PC being made to suffer in any way possible. Aggression is the real determiner. How sexually they treat it depends on Lust.

 

The moral type is for players who like chastity and being punished (in some way) for breaking unfair and arbitrary rules - albeit applied in a consistent sort of way so they create a pretense of fairness. Honor is the real determiner.

 

The nightmare type is for players who just like the extreme setting on all of the above, or simply a hard game. There's no core determination value for this type; it's prone to generate high values for everything except honor.

 

 

Historically, DFC classic deals helped serve this purpose, so it's building on an idea/approach that was always part of the mod, but making it more modular and configurable.

Spoiler

• Slut Deal - sexy/sadist
• Bondage Deal = slaver/sadist
• Ownership Deal = chastity
• Piercings Deal = sexy/sadist
• Whore/Plug Deal = sexy/profiteer

 

And the games...

Spoiler

• Jarl Game = sexy/sadist/slaver
• Pony Game = sexy/sadist
• Jacket Game = sexy/profiteer/slaver
• Stolen Stuff Game = sexy/profiteer
• Weird Potion = sexy/slaver/profiteer

The fits aren't as clear. Sexy is the predominating feel. The existing deals and games have broad appeal. They were an area where Lozeak took a specific fantasy scenario and brought it to life. It was cleverly done. The addition of each of the games got a lot of positive feedback.

 

 

My intuition is that Lozeak wrote scenes that he wanted to see and that resonated directly for him. He didn't worry about the design beyond that. If he liked it, then he put it in.

Spoiler

The direction of the poll suggests that the games are one of the most loved parts of the mod, despite their only being a few of them.

I put this down to two things:

(1) because it's a moment when the follower acts with agency, not simply in response to the player, and

(2) because they enjoy the sexy kinks.

 

With (1) there is some sense of the unknown when you first play the scenes. You don't know what will happen. That's exciting. Things feel out of control for a little while. On repetition the impact fades, but people still remember it, which brings a little of it back.

 

I think initially players had a good amount of difficulty with these scenes too: horses not appearing or being recognized, scenes sticking, sketchy pet-suit animations, quests not progressing or ever finishing, chaos as some other mod triggered, and so on. Despite this, players seemed keen to persist with them. They're more stable than they were, but it's hard to make them 100% solid, because a modded Skyrim is full of unknowns.

 

So, I'm interested to hear if people have kinks or scenes that they really want to see in games, or that could be linked into personalities somehow?

Suggestions for kinky scenes are welcome. If you think you know how they could be implemented, all the better.

 

 

Spoiler

While I agree that a three phase model of the PC-follower relationship is sufficient, I probably envisage the first phase a little differently. Follower personality should be clear from the first encounter. The sooner we can guess the personality type, the sooner we can decide if the follower is one we will enjoy, and the more distinct and valuable they are.

 

Yes, we should also have immersion regarding their official role (hireling/housecarl/partner/etc), but that isn't really phase specific. My approach to working with that will likely be to adjust personality distribution based on follower type. Hirelings will more often be profiteers, but don't have to be; it's just more likely.

 

 

I see the first phase as simply being a period where the follower is less confident and needs to get you to agree to more and more of their outlandish rules. They need to create the set-up before they can double down and bend or break you to serve their purpose before your own.

 

Sure, we begin with: I'll work for you, without payment in advance, but if the debt is too much, I want ... something more.

That's not so unreasonable. All you have to do is pay.

 

It's deliberate oddity of DFC that you can't pay in advance. It's no accident that unless you are in gold control, your positive credit is capped so you can't pre-pay. The follower wants you to generate debt so they can exploit it as a lever. They want to blackmail you, not be your bank - except the profiteer - and even they want to guarantee their investment by assuring sufficient control and lock-in.

 

 

Right now, there are no phases. It's purely debt driven. Some rules are simply imposed - high debt enslavement, for example, requires a very high willpower level to block it.

 

Even with phases, the follower should still be very interested in their personality goals. 

 

To give some examples of how the personality stats would impact behavior:

Spoiler

A greedy follower should eagerly offer paid services whenever possible; seeking to get the PC to agree to accept them without the chance for discussion.

 

A controlling follower should eagerly offer to make decisions; looking to set a precedent for the PC not being able to refuse them, and should do so as soon as possible.

 

Lust is super-obvious. The follower wants sex. They want to see the PC have sex. They want sex with the PC. They want the PC naked, or in sexy clothes. Arousal and self-satisfaction are key for these NPCs.

 

Honor means the follower will stick to their own internal rules. They might not be a housecarl. They might not care about the hold... but they see every misfortune as natural justice, and are constantly judging the PC and finding them lacking. While they have that negative aspect, they will be unlikely to cheat or rob the PC in unfair ways. Games are more likely to punish than to steal. They are likely to react badly to the PC acting as a criminal and punish, without question or doubt. They may also reward good deeds or honesty.

 

Aggression is a little less clear. In most cases it equates to sadism, but also indicates the follower's tendency to ignore willpower and simply trample over the PC if they can. e.g. If the PC gets tied up, an aggressive follower should exploit it to the max rather than accepting a fee for help escaping, like a greedy follower would. A less aggressive NPC will be more likely to agree with a high-willpower PC, even if they are disadvantaged.

 

Playfulness is the most ambiguous stat. It too can equate to a tendency to ignore willpower, but for different ends. A playful NPC will tend to act to indulge their other tendencies more; whatever is dominant for them. It's also a direct indicator of a preference for games and distractions. "Gamble for it? Of course!" Bets and challenges are things they love. Control and profit may take a back seat for playful-centric NPCs. A lustful, playful follower will be eager to push the PC into sexy situations, but indifferent to ideas like enslavement or maximizing their profit. They could even be actively helpful as long as they're getting what they want and they aren't expected to do something boring.

 

I selected the stats thinking of what values I would want to test to gate dialogs and decisions. I didn't begin with an abstract model of personality or behavior. I thought about what numbers I could test that would give relatively direct answers and somewhat immersively consistent results. They might not be perfect, but it's all in the implementation anyway. I could have different stats; what matters is how they are finally used.

 

So, for a specific example of implementation, imagine some reaction dialog with a few flavor alternatives:

 

Honor > 75 - Bound I see? I hope you learn from your mistakes. You can stay that way for a time so you do. 

Control > 75 - So, slut, I see you got yourself into an armbinder? Probably the most useful thing you could do.

Greed > 75 - Those restraints look uncomfortable. Hold still so I can remove them. Not for free of course, but you're making me do this, it's only fair that there's an extra charge.

Lust > 75 - Ah, helpless again my sweet? I'll get you out of that pickle but you need to get me off first. I hope you like the taste of pussy?

Playful > 75 - Oh, are we playing a bondage game again? Wonderful! I have a few more items to complete your look. I think you'll love them...

Aggression > 75 - Did you bind yourself, or did you fail again? No difference for a fuckpig like you. If you want my help, get on your knees and beg for it.

Otherwise - I can remove that armbinder, but it will cost you. No pressure. I'm sure you're enjoying yourself but don't forget that I still need to get paid.

[Tron91]

@Lupine00

 

Seems you better make a new Follower Framework called Devious Follower Framework. Would be more easier for you to handle multiple followers with different personality and likes.

[Herowynne]

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

it's a moment when the follower acts with agency, not simply in response to the player

 

Yes, this statement captures what I like to see in a Sexlab follower mod like DFC or SubLola.

[Lupine00]

35 minutes ago, Tron91 said:

Seems you better make a new Follower Framework called Devious Follower Framework. Would be more easier for you to handle multiple followers with different personality and likes.

That's not a crazy idea - but definitely something for when most of the current plans are done rather than now.

[Lupine00]

I've uploaded the voice files to Mega, repacked according to a certain logic:

 

These are all the high quality files (A, B and C), excluding unique voice:

(Core voice files) https://mega.nz/file/OHgxiQ7B#vsHyE_FRMxxMpt4pTpWGKIlXGduRY6Uqop1zdaG54sY

(Supplemental) https://mega.nz/file/CTgFzCKb#u7AH0jek1_kL7s7fx22DXHuPw33Pez5RmvHwO_DGdkg

 

These are all the unique voices, regardless of quality:

https://mega.nz/file/3epCQBqA#tbNuY-sTdFrIkkQ2HHAYCjXE4qjWxKJYJZ0UyGhzDx8

 

These are low quality files (D) excluding unique voices:

https://mega.nz/file/eSg2GBxS#sefoNH0XT3PVwj8b5hLdXkwGKwGP2sN-Fi7TYrcOVos

 

I could probably split the main package based on whether it's a common follower voice or not, as there are only a few that are "follower complete", and fewer still that see much use.

If you care about space or download, you could easily go "main" only and get good coverage.

Delphine is probably the only unique vanilla voice that you might have as a follower, and she is a low quality voice, so probably to be avoided.

 

Here are all the individual voice packs - useful if you only want one or two voices:

https://mega.nz/folder/ea5y0DIZ#eK15TsIEkkeNcXUI82Sdmw

 

I'll post these on the front page later.

 

One reference says:

Spoiler

Voices for followers who can marry and adopt:

- Male: Brute, EvenToned, Nord, Orc, YoungEager

- Female: Commander, Sultry, YoungEager

 

Voices for followers who can marry:

- Male: Argonian, EvenToned, EvenTonedAccented, DarkElf, Drunk

- Female: DarkElf, EvenToned, Orc

 

Voices for spouses who can adopt:

- Male: CommonerAccented, Condescending, SlyCynical

- Female: Commoner, Coward, ElfHaughty, Nord

 

Voices for follower who can adopt:

- Female: Condescending

 

Voices for only followers:

- Male: Khajiit

 

Voices for only spouses:

- Male: Commoner, Coward

- Female: Argonian, Shrill

 

In practice, these are the ones most worth bothering with:

• Male: Brute, EvenToned, Nord, Orc, YoungEager, DarkElf, Male Khajit
• Female: Commander, Sultry, YoungEager, DarkElf, EvenToned, Orc, Condescending.

[Buridan]

Personalities sound interesting!

 

3 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

 

  Hide contents

The direction of the poll suggests that the games are one of the most loved parts of the mod, despite their only being a few of them.

I put this down to two things:

(1) because it's a moment when the follower acts with agency, not simply in response to the player, and

(2) because they enjoy the sexy kinks.

 

With (1) there is some sense of the unknown when you first play the scenes. You don't know what will happen. That's exciting. Things feel out of control for a little while. On repetition the impact fades, but people still remember it, which brings a little of it back.

 

I think initially players had a good amount of difficulty with these scenes too: horses not appearing or being recognized, scenes sticking, sketchy pet-suit animations, quests not progressing or ever finishing, chaos as some other mod triggered, and so on. Despite this, players seemed keen to persist with them. They're more stable than they were, but it's hard to make them 100% solid, because a modded Skyrim is full of unknowns.

 

So, I'm interested to hear if people have kinks or scenes that they really want to see in games, or that could be linked into personalities somehow?

Suggestions for kinky scenes are welcome. If you think you know how they could be implemented, all the better.

 

I'd love to see an event or three where the follower directs you to go somewhere.

 

My favorite part of the pony game isn't even the pony gear or what happens when you get to a stable, but the fact that the follower is ordering you to go somewhere. Currently, where to go next is one of the things that a Skyrim player mostly still has a choice of. Even after you're enslaved, your follower is happy to follow you wherever. Having that freedom taken away (even as a strong suggestion) for the pony game was extraordinarily effective in making me feel like the follower is the one in control.

 

For example:

 

Follower says "I have some business with Sybille Stentor in the Blue Palace. I want to be there within three days." If you outright refuse, a deal is added (unless your willpower is very high). If you miss the deadline, the follower applies punishment debt and warns you. The location should be in another hold if possible. Success could be triggered via location (like entering the Blue Palace) or by adding a dialogue option to the specific NPC. I'm not sure how breakable that is though.

 

Or:

 

Follower says "I think we should clear out Redoran's Retreat next." If you don't clear Redoran's Retreat and loot the final chest (with invisible tracker item like credit/debt?) within X days, the follower gets annoyed and applies punishment debt or locks you in restraints. Could have carrot-and-stick variants depending on willpower, where at high willpower you get debt relief (follower is grateful you followed their suggestion) and at lower willpower debt is added if you don't go ("that wasn't a suggestion").

 

I also quite like the meaningless, menial tasks in Submissive Lola that reinforce your inferior status, like getting your master a drink. Doesn't have to be a drink, could be another somewhat common item like a steel weapon or a piece of jewelry. Could be implemented as a boredom-reducing game, at the expense of willpower maybe?

[Fulgrim_]

8 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

So, I'm interested to hear if people have kinks or scenes that they really want to see in games, or that could be linked into personalities somehow?

Suggestions for kinky scenes are welcome. If you think you know how they could be implemented, all the better.

 

I'd love a mix of your lusty personality description with some shaming, but if it would be achievable without too heavy use of bondage. E.g. I'd like a master for my PC that wants sex from her, wants the PC to find a partner for the master, whores out the PC to merchants/innkeepers/guards/beggars/random people, forces the PC to say shameful things (like the current hand on shoulder deal) or be naked/wear sexy clothes (which could be determined using the sexlab aroused keywords). While much of this is already implemented, I'd love if the deals would be more flexible (e.g. no need for plug to be a whore).

 

And like the user above said, the master could also decide where to go.

 

Also, once the PC has a master, it would be nice if there would a feature that would enable NPC's to ask the master if they can use the PC, taking away more freedom.

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, Fulgrim_ said:

a mix of your lusty personality description with some shaming

The player appetite for shaming and humiliation content is considerable  

 

There are two ways to approach this that make sense to me:

 

1) every personality type uses shaming; it's totally pervasive

 

or

 

2) shaming is related to Aggression score

 

 

 

If (2) I could imagine Aggression 25 is "some shaming sometimes" while Aggression 75 would mean "shaming as a default activity".

 

(2) is better in the sense that is supports the minority who don't want shaming and humiliation.

(1) is better in that it doesn't involve trying to create content that few people care about, and which may just be complexity for no benefit.

[jammingserver1]

Some people wanted more gambles, and more stuff to fill in the 'boredom, low-debt, higher-willpower' part of the mod, here's some ideas. Obvious drawback is obvious: thing might be too innocent or subtle, since they're intended as ideas to fill the less obvious and blunt parts. If things are too subtle, just get out the lewdness sledgehammer and put some high-ish chance (~20%) sexy event trigger on them.

 

Gentle Corruptive Items Idea: Additive to the 'Bothersome Jewelry Gear' game ideas. Mostly used to fill higher-willpower, low-debt, boredom-triggered stages.

Also, there's some quest/gamble/dare/event ideas below, most could be done with existing items, though the new, ligher-themed ones are better fitted for some of them.

Spoiler

 

THE GEAR
Minor buffs, flavourful description, potential long-time effects, low chance of triggering events. Some could sparkle a tiny bit everytime they get equipped (just a log message). Make the wearer feel woozy over time. Have a flavourful item-description that doesn't outright tell its effects. (The basic effects can be seen by player in active-effects menu, though.) Mostly intended for early-stage to mess up the player's foothold, but also useful later for some additional conditioning headcanon. They intentionally have drawbacks and buffs, to reinforce the theme of 'best used in a team where others cover one's weaknesses'. Minor arousal increase when worn.

 

The items are not really worth wearing, once the player has access to better gear, but the follower gets upset when their 'gifts' aren't worn after player agreed to wear them. It's again mostly about taking away fractions of decision from the player, having fewer and fewer gear slots they decide about. These are a differently-themed alternative extension to the 'bothersome item' deals, more themed as 'I used some of my gold to get you this gift! It will help us on our journey!' if refused: 'You have an odd way of showing your gratitude.' (Hurt pride.) And somehow, when they're equipped more often (or worn over night/when waiting), things can happen to the player's mind... (flavour text, willpower reduction, minor arousal increase, suggestability increase: 'Their appearance seems more intense than usual.'). Can also be won as 'good outcome' prize in gambles as 'reward'. When worn, the follower might try to start deals to increase the time the player wears them.

 

Their effects can simply be listed under some vague name 'Partnership Gear Effect' in the magic effects menu, implying that these effects might not always stay the same, as usual enchanted items' effects would. In fact, they could morph into stronger/less attractive enchantments over time once the player has 'promised' more severely to wear them (long-time deals)! Then, they can also trigger mischieving scenes undermining the player's feeling of autonomy by random, accidental happenings seemingly unrelated to the gear.

ITEM EXAMPLES
Ring of Restful Reconciliation (+3% stamina regen, -3 speech). 'It gives a bit of a kick when put on. Makes the air taste weird. Doesn't seem to react well to magic.' (Optionally: Makes player a bit less sharp mentally/more agreeable)

 

Necklace of Nightly Nods (+3% mana regen, -3 sneak) 'Feels a bit cold around the neck. Sometimes a tiny zap of mana comes from it. Almost unnoticable climpering noises. Said to aid in deep, mind-sharpening sleep.' Occasionally changes its temperature. (Optionally: Makes player a bit more restless/panicky over time)

 

Circlet of Curbed Cling (+3% health regen, -3 archery) 'Fits itself snugly against the wearers head. Everything seems a bit lighter, happier! Life feels stronger. Sometimes things blur out in the corner of the eye. Hums occasionally.' (Optionally: Makes player a bit more careless/adventurous over time)

Whenever player doesn't wear them when they're supposed to, the follower gets a bit accusatory/passive-aggressive 'You make poor decisions when it comes to the right choice of gear', identical to the 'bothersome gear' deals. The optional effects can be done by simply slightly lowering willpower, or less speech/intimidation options when negotiating deals with the follower while wearing them. Alternatively, they can just all have a plain speech/intimidation debuff.

 

These can be easily extended to more 'humiliating' versions. Those are mostly the same, but optionally with triple the debuff strength, and more humiliating descriptions. Their names might not fit everyone's lore. There can be made a joke of how the follower occasionally 'switches them out' or the player sees the same item in a different way now.

 

Ring of Rural Rumps (+3% stamina regen, -9 speech) 'It gives an unpleasant kick when put on. Makes the air taste stale. Heats up distractingly near alchemic ingredients. Ornated with an obscene shape. There seems little reason to wear it.' (Optionally: Makes player less sharp mentally/more agreeable)

 

Necklace of Naughty Noise (+3% mana regen, -9 sneak) 'Feels a bit cold around the neck. Sometimes a humiliating zap of mana comes from it. Rarely climpers, revealing it's presence. Heats up distractingly near any kind of dust. Ornated with hearts and shameful shapes. There seems little reason to wear it.' (Optionally: Makes player more restless/panicky over time)

 

Circlet of Carnal Chumps (+3 health regen, -9 archery) 'Fits itself tight against the wearers head. Everything seems more muffled, breaths feel heavier. The outlines of things seem to vibrate. Heats up distractingly near magic. Ornated with jester emblems and indecent shapes. Hums in an off-putting tune occasionally. There seems little reason to wear it.' (Optionally: makes player more careless/adventurous over time)

 

 

 

Low-chance Events: (repeatable) (optional) (when wearing corrupting items)

Spoiler

The following events have no 'obvious' connection to the 'bothersome jewelry gear' at all: they only happen when they're worn, but that's for the player to realize.

Low chance of arousal spike:
3% chance of 'getting hit like a hammer' with feelings of lust, in a safe area:
'Sudden waves of warmth and energy flow through you, emanating from several ends of your body.' -10% mana regeneration for 5min. +10% health regeneration for 5min. Arousal +30.

 

Low chance of 'thirst for ale':
3% chance when in town. 10% chance when in inn.
'You feel a need for a specific taste in your throat. Where can you get it?'
Follower says: 'You look thirsty. Here, just against the worst cravings.' (Log message: 'Wakener'/Mead/Wine/Lactacid consumed.) (If using 'wakener' message, no further explanation is given.)

 

Low chance of haunting ghosts event when wearing them:
3% chance of 'seeing ghosts' (conjured, peaceful, ethereal, don't talk. Might make player more uncertain, decreasing willpower slightly.) that spawn in a safe area. When talking to follower, there's a low chance of them saying something like 'Are you seeing ghosts again? You need to focus on your life.' 'Stirred souls of the dead, huh? Your imagination runs dangerously wild.'

 

Low chance of 'restless sleep':
10% chance of some vague nightmares after sleeping in bed. (Log Message, -5% skill increase for 4h. Might decrease willpower.). When talking to follower, there's a low chance of them saying something like: You look more shaken than usual.'

 

Low chance of 'shaking dreams':
after sleeping in bed 10% chance of dialog with the follower 'You're more erratic today. What's the matter?' - (no confident answers available for player) 'Not sure...' 'Time to get you focused again. Drink this. Just a sip. It helps the spirits.' (player is unsure, but takes a sip. can't do much harm, right?) (Log message: 'Wakener' has been consumed.) Can be harmless mead/wine, or a hook to start some more effects)

 

Low chance when magic stuff happens (player casts spells):
5% chance when casting spells:
'Your jewelry gently vibrates in the magical air.'

 

Early-to-middle-stage deals/gambles:

Quote

DEAL EXAMPLES: (filling in some early 'boredom' gaps. Mostly using the 'bothersome-jewelry-items')
Same gambles and deals as with the 'bothersome circlet' items or devious devices, but can be triggered with no debt, just boredom.
Same deals as with wearing devious devices to reduce debt & boredom, but only available at higher willpower.

 

MINI-QUESTS/DEMANDS: Triggered mostly at high boredom, low debt, high willpower, where not much else is going on.

The Token of Cooperation: Random anywhere. follower wants player to wear 'bothersome-jewelry-item' and be thankful for it. Mostly at high willpower. Can be triggered with no debt, just boredom. Reason can depend on follower type, just a single line of dialog. Spouse: 'A proof of our connection.' Housecarl: 'A sign of honor for the hold.' Ally/Friend/Guildmember: 'A valuable aid to our journey.' Hireling: 'A necessary tool to increase both our chances for a long, prosperous life'. Refusal disappoints the follower, and adds slightly more boredom. (available slot is chosen, gear is equipped to player. 'Wear item' deal is automatically active for a day.)

 

The Distracting Disguise: Random when within a city/gamble. Some wanted criminal looks similar to player, and there's danger of them being wrongfully put into jail. Luckily, the follower can help! But only if the player is willing to do their part. Simply wear this distracting item, and noone will look at the player's face too much. Just until the criminal is caught, which will probably be within hours! (available slot is chosen, gear is equipped to player. 'Wear item' deal is automatically active for a day.) If used as gamble, themed as 'see how many people in the city think you're an adventurer, and not some clown.'

 

The Relaxing Respite: Random when within a city/inn/gamble. Follower says that the stress doesn't suit the player, that they have difficulty winding down. It's important to recharge energy for the duties ahead. The easiest way is to switch up everyday habits a bit, like wearing this weird thing! It will take the player's mind off the long, exhausting days of the past for a while. 'Now, don't tell me you don't need this. You're not a good liar.' (available slot is chosen, gear is equipped to player. 'Wear item' deal is automatically active for a day.)

 

The Carelessly Lost Loot: Random in wilderness, mischievery. Follower accuses player of having dropped valuable loot by accident. Shows some expensive-wine-bottle as 'proof'. To make sure this doesn't happen with their valuable loot/their gift for the player, they demand the player wears it, so it doesn't get dropped too by their careless fingers. (available slot is chosen, gear is equipped to player. 'Wear item' deal is automatically active for a day.)

 

The Squeaky Door:
When leaving a cell into a city, the follower accuses the player of haphazardly running against the doors. Are they drunk? No, they can't continue like this, they'll be thrown out of all establishments if they kick against all their doors. Here, the player should take some stamina powder, to get back on track. Player takes tiny bit of this powder, seemingly has a minor short-time stamina buff indeed, no drawbacks, at most maybe a neglegible '-1 speech' debuff. No further aftermath at all, except for an optional hook, low chance (~10%), of some arbitrary, bad follow-up event later. (If it has no debuff at all, and no immediate outcome, it keeps the player paranoid for a while! Also fits in with all the other scenes.)

 

The Hard-Earned Reward: Random radiant quest. Probably a bit of effort to code. Follower does most of the talking, for some reason, both at start and at end where reward is received. (Player might not be able to hear what is said.) Ends with 'our efforts have paid off! What a nice reward. Here, let's see how it looks on you, how it feels for a few hours. (available slot is chosen, gear is equipped to player. 'Wear item' deal is automatically active for a day.)

 

SKILL/CHANCE-BASED GAMBLES: optionally affected by the 'corrupting jewelry items'

The Perfect Mixture: random in wilderness/anywhere/gamble. Follower dares the player to prove their worth in surviving in skyrim by making some basic, easy alchemic mixture. Lack of respect and regard for player's opinions if player can't even do that. Player agrees, since it's very straightforward - just mix these three powdered ingredients together, carefully in the right proportions, and keep stirring. Yet somehow, the longer they stir, the more dizzy they get! The air is getting warmer... The choice options the player has for mixing the next amount into the product, get further and further from the correct proportions, due to it getting harder and harder to control tiny amounts of powder in precise amounts, and not being able to clearly tell from the mixed product which ingredient was added slightly too much already...At the end, the product gets made with a somewhat-decent rate of success, due to being so basic, but it's clearly far from perfect, the player's head is spinning, and the follower hasn't really been convinced of the player's abilities. If they fail, their opinions count even less since they fail at such basic tasks - for some reason...
Optional: if the player wears the 'corruptive ring', it's distracting changes in temperature make the player's hands even more unsteady, further lowering success chances.

 

The Taste of Wine: random in inn/gamble. Follower dares player to tell in which order they drank from three bottles of different mead/wine. The player has a decent chance to guess and win the gamble, but feels very strange for a while after having drunk those. They all tasted a bit weird, making the correct answer even harder... (Arbitrary aftermath of spiked drinks.)
Optional: Wearing the 'corruptive circlet' increases the blurring of tastes and further reduces win chances.

 

The Berries of Houdini: Random in wilderness/anywhere/gamble. Follower dares player on who can eat more of these berries that 'aid stamina'. They also make people drunk when eaten in great amounts, it seems. Especially the player. After taking dare after dare to eat another portion, the player blacks out, wakes up with some lower-value device locked on them. Follower tells that the player got really weird after eating the berries and had first bragged about not being slowed down by the gear, having the skill to easily slip out of them, then gone more and more insistent, finally begging the follower to let them 'prove it'. Player doesn't remember anything, but now they have to figure out how to get these off. No, no chance of helping, first they bother them for ages to put them on, and now they act as if that had never happened! Didn't they say they could do it without the follower's help?  Great chance to prove it! (follower refuses to unequip said gear for a day, unless in combat. claims victory and 'won bet' when player gives in to unequip item.)
Optional: If the player wears the 'corruptive necklace', it zaps distractingly when the follower's hand comes close with the berries surrounded in some sort of dust, the necklace seemingly reacting to some of the particles in the air, its effects making the player's head swim even sooner, after fewer portions.

 

The Scrolls of Wisdom: Random anywhere/gamble. Follower dares player to 'recite a scroll of lightball's activation sequence from memory without looking at the scroll in between.' Perhaps accompanied by a mention of someone putting some folds into their nice scroll. Careless! Player agrees, perhaps thinking they can just cast the spell. Follower equips blindfold and cuffs, to prevent player 'meddling with the scroll or with their hands'. Player tries to recall scroll. Has low chance of getting correct incantation by sheer chance (player knows the first incantation part, then there are two consecutive dialog choices with only 1 correct option and 2 wrong ones, so 1/6th chance at random). Follower doesn't want to let them give up at the first failure, but every time the player chooses wrong, some 'minor curse' gets activated on them, but they can't see exactly what happened due to the blindfold. The follower claims they're imagining things just to get out of the bet. These minor 'curses' on the player can be distracting arousal increase, minor debuffs, speech debuffs, or small-disorientation-effects which could result in less willpower when combined. Once the player finally succeeds, the follower can just claim that the player cheated by casting the spell from their hands, and quickly put another scroll on the floor where the first one vanished (some paper-rustling noises), since the player is still blindfolded. In this case, player requires very high willpower to stay convinced that they had won, and insist on it - the follower could too easily disregard their claims as 'bad loser's excuse', after all, they saw nothing.
Optional: when wearing the 'corruptive circlet', 'corruptive necklace' or 'corruptive ring' gear, the player's abilities are additionally sabotaged/distracted by it humming/vibrating whenever they open their mouth to continue with the incantation. Also, if the player wears some magic-triggered vibrating plugs, those could also distract.

 

 

Afternote: I see how some of the personality templates I threw around as ideas weren't capturing their design purpose in DFC. Well, at least they let the discussion roll further.

 

 

[Xiaron]

6 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

The player appetite for shaming and humiliation content is considerable  

 

If (2) I could imagine Aggression 25 is "some shaming sometimes" while Aggression 75 would mean "shaming as a default activity".

 

(2) is better in the sense that is supports the minority who don't want shaming and humiliation.

(1) is better in that it doesn't involve trying to create content that few people care about, and which may just be complexity for no benefit.

Speaking as one of the (apparently few) DFC players who don't particularly like humiliation and shaming, I would definitely vote for option 2.

[Anunya]

Liking the sound of this discussion: in terms of expanding on personalities, in terms of adding more elements to the fiction in different parts of the devious relationship, in terms of adding more color and nuance to the downward slope, and in terms of giving the devious follower more control over other aspects of gameplay.

 

Some ideas:

 

• Controlling what you wear: follower gives you one or more items of clothing to wear, or designates items from your inventory (could be taken from your inventory, set in the MCM, taken from a specific list). It could be "change your clothes now" based on a timer or a location (with punishment debt for a slow reaction), or it could be a schedule the follower sets (based on time or location again) that the PC has to follow after it's been set out. This would have even more impact if other NPCs responded to what you wore (maybe via SLD outfit keywords?)... though that may be too significant in terms of scope.
• Thievery: the devious follower could demand being given stolen goods, up to a certain time value per day. Or, for a more full fledged experience, it could start out with the devious follower acting as a fence to the player. Maybe they have 200 gold a day for buying stolen goods. How awesome is that? Of course, they buy them at 25% value, but still. Then, over time that percentage could be reduced to 20-15-10-5-1% until it just becomes "you have to provide me with X gold worth of stolen stuff daily (maybe with a min value to avoid dross) or the shortfall will be added to your debt." This will leverage existing gameplay functions into DFC in a pretty clean way, I think, and has a lot of potentially interesting permutations. Maybe you devious follower is willing to pay off your bounty if you're caught (with a surcharge, naturally), or maybe they aren't... but if getting caught for crime gets you to SS++ and your devious follower is your SS++ buyer then that's a nicely slippered up slide right there.
• Horse Thief: building on the previous one, maybe the devious follower could demand you steal one or two horses. It'd probably have to be a one off type mission. If it is successful, you have a horse (and the follower launders it for you), but if not... that's potentially a pretty big crime that you need the devious follower's help with.
• You Better Sell That: maybe sometimes the follower demands that you sell things from your inventory (or your horse) to bring down your debt. Perhaps it's a choice. "Sell the cool magic sword in your inventory (normal sale value 500, for 250 which we'll apply to your debt or I'll up your debt by 500)." If you can apply that to things the player actually uses/ wears rather than randomly picking from the inventory that would be even cooler. Or it could even be "I'd like to borrow that thing you're wearing/ using" (and never give it back - "oh I sold that, I didn't think you want it back" or maybe give it back for extra debt "I've really grown fond of it, it's only fair you give me something in return.")
• Food/ Drink Control: I think I may have pitched this one already, or maybe it was in a SubLola thread. But having the devious follower interfere with or control your food/ drinks supply could be pretty interesting for people who play with needs mods. It could be as simple as at set times the devious follower needs to be fed (either you give them something, or they just raid your inventory) and if you don't feed them/ don't have anything they'll add debt. Or it could be that whenever you eat/ drink the devious follower demands you give them something too (or they add debt). For me the ideal flow would be that the follower says "I want to eat X" with X being from you inventory, and if you don't give it to them they'll add debt. Maybe there's a (rising) minimum cost for food items... so at first they'll be fine with basic stuff, but eventually they'll only be satisfied with expensive food and drink. It'd really make you feel like a servant, I think.
• Guards Humiliation: maybe the devious follower requires the PC to approach guards to service them sexually/ distract them with humiliating conversation/ have an interaction that adds a minor bounty to the PC. Combined with the thievery option above, or other mods that make guards oppressive that could have a pretty high impact.
• Pushing Boundaries: I picture a small set of events that go "hey, I'll reduce your debt by X if you fuck those two dogs right here" followed a little while later by "hey it's dog fucking time again, fuck those dogs or I'll add debt." In both cases the PC has a humiliating choice to make, that gets worse after a bit. It doesn't have to be dogs per se, but any kind of sexual activity that could be seen as kinky (threesomes+, fucking someone not of your preferred gender, specific sex like anal or oral). The important part, IMO is the choice.
• Be Productive: the devious follower requires you to craft X simple items within a time limit or face consequences. To make it simple for the player, the follower could provide materials... or maybe they don't, making it much more of a hustle.
• It's Your Choice, Really: I think it'd be nice to provide some one-off options where the player is given a choice that - at least at first seems beneficial and mostly fun but then get worse - could add some flavour to the early slide. In general I think player choice makes things interesting. Anyhow, in addition to the pushing boundaries one above, it could be things like "if you're naked the whole time we're in this city/ the jarl's palace/ this dungeon I'll reduce your debt" or "pickpocket that person over there and I'll reduce debt" or "offer sex to that person over there" or "if you don't use any spells in the next 12 hours I'll reduce your debt" or "don't wear any armour in the next 24 hours" or "if you have sex with so-and-so using whatever means you can in the next 24 hours, I'll reduce debt" or "if you don't have a single orgasm in the next 24 hours I'll reduce debt" (for SLSO users) etc... and then, after a while, it becomes "do it or I'll add debt". It's still the player's choice, but instead of choosing to embrace humiliation/ inconvenience for a benefit it turns into "choose to do something humiliating or suffer a consequence." I don't think you'll want to build out a whole system of these, because it just becomes a parallel to the deals, but I think there's potential to add flavoured events like these as an adjunct to deals to make them feel richer.
• Follower's Cronies: this is more of a half formed thought, but it'd be cool if the devious follower could have cronies that you return to on a regular basis to add a sense of continuity. Maybe every time you're in Markath there's this one guy your follower knows who really wants to fuck you in the ass. Maybe every time you're in Ivarstead, you should bring so-and-so a bottle of expensive mead as a gift. It could be existing key NPCs (inn-keepers), existing random NPCs (citizens), or purpose place NPCs. If that works, that could also form the basis for the devious follower directing travel a bit more by saying things like "It's time we visit my crony in Markath (you know, the guy who likes to fuck you in the ass)" (and if you haven't spoken to him within 3 days I'll add debt out of disappointment).

... there's probably a bunch here that's non-trivial to implement and/ or doesn't fit your plans, but maybe there's something useful too

[Anunya]

Another one which could have a pretty decent impact (if doing stuff based on your inventory is manageable to do, obviously)

 

Don't Get Addicted to that Stuff (or Too Many Potions Make You Fat): your follower sets a limit to the number of potions you can have in your inventory 20-10-5-0. That changes gameplay potentially a fair it (and makes the alchemy revenue scheme more of a challenge as well). Exceeding it adds debt and/or results in confiscations of random potions.

[Tresspawnknight]

So just kind of wondering, but how long do you think it would be before you implement the Maid deal if at all. 

 

From what I can tell this seems like the best kind of mod for such a thing and it is something I am very much looking forward to if it does eventually get added as out of Skyrim mods very few actually have a whole "Maid" thing going, and while I might be missing some the only other ones were "Captured Dreams" (now discontinued) and "Deviously Pink". So yeah just kind of wondering if there is a actually planned update with it in mind or if it's more a it gets here when it gets here type of thing. Either way as long as it gets added eventually I'll be pretty dang happy! 

[Lupine00]

20 minutes ago, Tresspawnknight said:

So just kind of wondering, but how long do you think it would be before you implement the Maid deal if at all

Months away, but still this year.

 

New deals seems to be a lower priority for most people voting in the poll. The votes seem fairly even though. While some items are definitely well ahead, it's not by a massive margin. Or put another way, the most popular item is around three times as popular as the least popular item.

 

But addressing that deal in particular, I think that the Maid and Pet deals are likely to be done, but not exactly as detailed currently, because the design for them is a classic deal.

 

I think it's more likely it will end up as a "Role" deal, that can end up including different outfit and task related rules.

So, you could get some combination of Cat and Maid items, so you could have do dress as a cat but still act like a maid, or the reverse, or be a maid who has to be naked. What would be offered would depend on the follower personality and what rules you have already that might block the preferred rules.

Roles could always be expanded later. Loot Mule or Healslut could also be roles, eventually, and so on.

 

Also, the suggested work to redo the "Slut" deal probably won't happen. As far as I can tell, that deal is OK now and doesn't need a major overhaul. It would change with the removal of classic deals anyway.

[Lupine00]

Some interesting ideas in the preceding posts. A huge amount of stuff.

 

Some of these things have been discussed before but in slightly different ways, and different objectives in mind.

Others are something I haven't seen before. They are interesting exchanges, but they aren't (much) in the mold of the current games which are notable for their humiliating sex scenarios.

 

The idea of adding more items seems good. Lozeak introduced some trapped items long ago, but they weren't well considered.

(The item that simply destroyed everything you were wearing, then put you in heavy bondage, was a little harsh).

 

 

A variety of things that the follower could give you, force on you, or that you can find and be tricked by, would be nice to have.

Linking that into "bogus rewards" for follower-driven quests is also interesting. Items that aren't simply restraints, but are useful with drawbacks would work early game, though they probably have a limited period of usefulness.

 

 

Behind a lot of these things is the idea of a temporary agreement that isn't a deal, or a permanent concession that isn't a deal.

 

Deals are the core mechanic that DFC uses for temporary agreements, but the deal "economy" means you don't take deals without debt, and deals are set at a certain minimal level of annoyance. Some of the item suggestions would work perfectly fine as deals and slot into that space in the game.

 

That isn't the overriding direction though.

I think people want other kinds of agreement besides deals, because it adds more richness to the experience; it's less formulaic.

When everything is a deal, it feels very mechanical.

 

 

Something that was discussed a way back is the issue of "contracts", and how there is a lack of explicit contract terms with the follower.

 

 

I am considering the benefits of a "Contract" mechanic, which could show up as a list of agreement terms in the MCM.

Terms could come and go from this contract, depending on what you agree with the follower through dialogs.

 

These might be deal-like things, or milder, or more pervasive, or highly disrupting. They could completely change the way things work.

 

e.g.

Spoiler

 

I agreed to pay the follower at least 290 gold per day. (Notice there is no time bound on this?)

I agreed to accept the follower's advice on clothing. (What does this really mean? You can't be sure. That's the point).

I agreed to let the follower choose what inn we sleep at. (Indefinite?)

I agreed to let the follower negotiate the sale of all weapons we loot. (Indefinite?)

I agreed to have sex with the follower today. (Intrinsically time bounded.)

I agreed not to carry more than 20 potions. (Indefinite?)

I agreed to go to Redoran's Retreat sometime this week. (Time bounded.)

I agreed to give blowjobs to guards as we leave the city. (Just this once? Or always? What did you really agree to?)

I agreed that the follower can enslave me if I owe more than 2900 at the end of the day. (Just this once? Or always? What did you really agree to?)

I agreed to wear the crazy mask in the city, just for today, so I won't be mistaken for a criminal. (Time bounded.)

 

 

What I'm looking for is a place to put arbitrary rules that aren't implemented as deals, and which have their own unique removal conditions, if any. That have their own timing, if not indefinite, and that don't necessarily have any special pre-conditions.

 

This not only turns random events into lasting consequences, but it keeps track of them - somewhat immersively - and the tracking is as much for internal purposes as external.

I can then implement "meta rules" and track all those weird "one day" follower demands, or increasingly strict conditions, in a consistent way using the same code framework.

 

Something like this is the kind of necessary frame on which a lot of these suggestions could hang, but also gives a sense of those accumulating agreements ... things that can't easily be undone simply by paying money. While you might get debt relief for agreeing to some them, there is no reliable way to get rid of them unless they are timed.

[Herowynne]

54 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

Behind a lot of these things, are the idea of a temporary agreement that isn't a deal, or a permanent concession that isn't a deal.

 

Deals are the core mechanic that DFC uses for temporary agreements, but the deal "exchange-rate" means you don't take deals without debt, and deals are set at a certain minimal level of annoyance. Some of item suggestions put forward would work perfectly fine as deals.

 

But I think people want other kinds of agreement, because it adds more richness to the experience; it's less formulaic.

 

I agree completely that the deal mechanic is formulaic. It works for players who like the idea of going into debt.

 

For other players like me, who don't care about gold in the game and who don't care about debt, the deals and debt are simply a means to an end -- the deals must be agreed to in order to get more interesting behavior from the follower, which is the actual goal.

 

I keep asking for the same kind of changes to DFC, which is to get more interesting behavior from the follower in as easy a manner as possible. I have suggested an MCM page of checkboxes to enable follower behaviors and events. That's not very immersive, but it is easy for the player to use.

 

It sounds like you are exploring concepts to get more interesting behavior from the follower in different ways other than the current deal mechanic, which I think is a step in the right direction.

[Lupine00]

54 minutes ago, Herowynne said:

I have suggested an MCM page of checkboxes to enable follower behaviors and events. That's not very immersive, but it is easy for the player to use.

That's not a terrible mechanic, but we already have a mod based around that idea, and DCL's XDFF rules were also something like that. Creating the events is the hard work, and if you're going to put that effort in, why not also make them more immersive. Adding a few extra conditions and  framing dialog around them can dramatically change the player's perception of them.

 

Contracts have been brought up as a wish list item on several occasions. Connecting the dots and joining contracts with early game boundary pushing and a library of lesser events leads to a mechanic that ought to feel more organically Devious Followers than a page of events that fire like clockwork.

 

The clockwork regularity of the Lola events makes the owner feel almost invisible; like an emotionless tent pole that those events are tied to. It's hard to convince yourself that they are desires that emerge from the character. At least as much as the devious follower, it suffers from a disappointing lack of agency or intent.

 

Whether it's DFC, or SLTR, I think the existence of some central "story" that holds things together is key to selling the fantasy to the player.

Sex Slaves had a story, but it lacked interesting random events; there was just the story (and repetitious sex obligations).

 

We still don't have a mod that puts both together, unless you count DCL, which just doesn't attempt to integrate its randomness into its quests; instead it keeps the two at arms length.

[CaptainJ03]

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

We still don't have a mod that puts both together, unless you count DCL, which just doesn't attempt to integrate its randomness into its quests; instead it keeps the two at arms length.

Thank you for these words - that's exactly how I feel about DCL. I don't dare to ask Kimy, but for my taste it would be nicer to have that in two seperate mods - one for the cursed loot, and the other for all those quests (that I played once and will never bother to do it again.)

[jammingserver1]

 

 

 

Quote

Behind a lot of these things is the idea of a temporary agreement that isn't a deal, or a permanent concession that isn't a deal.

 

Remember where I ranted about composition over cumulation?

Quote

The player's position is less defined by tracking past states of specific situations, where a single bugged giant could define the rest of the character development, and more by the current combination of generic components of varying durations.

If all the lego blocks of composition have the same duration, or the same flavor, it feels very straightforward. However, when there's a combination of short+ medium+long-duration blocks, we can still have modularity while getting all the 'unique-situation' feel of cumulation (i.e. tracking past states and using one-off events.)

 

Contracts could be another answer on how 'longer-duration' blocks could look like, but much more important - they can have arbitrary motivations leading to their agreements, not being focused on 'debt ' when none of the participants care much about that in the context of the current contract. That allows for different kinds of pressure that have nothing to do with the financial aspect, and can be more subtle in their bait into promises/bad decisions/mistakes. 'You didn't watch for my back, so I won't protect you from those nightly thieves, to teach you a lesson!' - that has nothing to do with debt - now we're able to include dealing with a budget of 'trust' or 'suggestability/willingness-to-teamwork/obedience'.

 

A small set of tiny microevents/short situations happening with very low chances, so most likely never repeating the same event in short time, could add a tiny bit of 'uniqueness-spice', without forcing it to be actually one-time. They can be 'handcrafted, one-off unique scenes/story nuggets' for all purposes, except that we can probably tune them so they can in theory repeat, and we save effort on tracking more past states, blowing up the tree of outcomes. Those would be the 'short-term' duration elements.

 

How those could look like, since you asked for scenes/ideas related to personality types:

Spoiler

micro-event/pseudo-'unique' story ideas: (handcrafted, effort to code, thus only used for the lowest-duration blocks. Still, these use some reusable componants in between them.)

 

slaver
A 'guard' (not really, a custom NPC) plus a 'trustworthy blacksmith' (also custom NPC) approach when in town. Blacksmith says that he has this new set of unbreakable leather devices. Slaver-type follower goes out of their way to get their attention (player can't run away/say anything in time): 'No mere leather can hold a restless runoff. Especially not one like the one I'm travelling with!' blacksmith says: 'How dare you speak up to this town's authority! You'll eat your big words. If they get out of that leather, you can continue your adventures. If not, your struggles will show our people how little truth there's behind them!' Custom guard says: 'And just so you don't run off like the people you brag to be, I'll put a bounty on you if you try to get away now- to keep you save from killing yourself in the dangers out there, and to give you some lesson in respect to authority!' By now, the player has no way out - either run away and get a sizable bounty, or prove they can struggle out of that leather! (quest remains in same location). Once the player has struggled out, or certain time has passed, the challenge is over and item is unequipped. afterwards, NPCs just wander off. the follower says: 'that took longer than expected. Interesting.'
Was that really a guard, or did the follower hire those guys to make their point so deliberately near the player?

 

sadist - similar event.

challenging a mage in town (perhaps drunk in an inn, or elsewhere) + guard, talking about the power of soulgems and magical plugs/piercings. Same 'fake guard' forces player to accept challenge, or incur painful bounty. 'No mere plugs can break a restless runoff's discipline. Especially not the one I'm travelling with!' This time it's not just leather to get out of, but a chastity belt with agonizing, teasing plugs, and some magical ritual amping up the arousal, and some arbitrary number of 'test-runs' the player has to endure, on-the-spot. Can the player hold out for <certain time until quest stage proceeds> so the sadist-type follower wins the bet? Afterwards, the gear is removed again, and the journey moves on. Follower says 'That wasn't quite enough fun.'

 

profiteer: similar event.

challenging a clothes_trader+guard on how the player can walk and sneak in boots which are so tightly restrictive, sneaking silently is impossible in them!; as he hears anyone that can move silent enough in the luxurious boots may keep them or sell them off, they naturally accept. same pattern as above; after some time, the quest proceeds to next stage. Afterwards, follower says 'I had hoped for some more profit there.'

moral:

something about cleaning dirty mouths with gags. Bets that 'this one's loose mouth couldn't even be stopped by any gag.' player has to try talking through gag. Afterwards, follower says 'Well at least for a short while it kept the honorless quips away.'

 

sexy:

like those above. probably something about 3 blowjobs in a row.

 

 

 

Some people already spoke about how they appreciate the felt loss of autonomy when skyrim's key mechanics are transformed.

We already have:
Gold Management
Equipped Gear Management
(Temporary) Quests
Some forms of inventory control

 

Suggestions in this post on what could be extended:
Inventory Management - pick up, carry, sell, drop
Location Control

 

What are 'good' patterns?

Spoiler

- robust against skyrim's noise.
- natural injection of low-chance 'accidents' outside of player's control, which they have to then fix within a low timespan or get punished - utilizes anxious anticipation to naturally shape play strategy.
- said accidents can happen from harmless things. eventually, the action of opening a city door leads to low-tier anxiety. Has to be capped at some point, or player stops playing.
- the more effort the player puts in the first time, to the point of extensive pettiness, repeatedly fetching mead from 5 meters away, repeatedly running to fetch items which the target says 'I told them it wouldn't be ready yet', etc, the less chance of dissatisfaction which leads to another 'round' as punishment. Player has to weigh the risk of trying to finish faster, at the cost of potential repeat rounds or other failure outcomes.
- but if they succeed, next time, everything gets worse.
- player has to constantly, consciously think of the follower's demands to avoid making mistakes.
- player's travel destination is increasingly decided by the place where they hope to find a fix for their problem.

 

How to fit this feel of oppression and mental tribute into as many parts of the gameplay, including inventory management, with a simple-mechanic deal/demand? Also, sex. Can't forget about that!

Spoiler

 

PACKING MULE DEAL

long-time deal (minimum duration: 1 week, later: 2 weeks - additionally prevents player from 'abandoning their duties')

'It's an easy deal. Just keep watch over these things of mine - and if you don't, you'll have to make it up with sex. Deal?'

Follower gives player a 'package' (it's just 5 vanilla skyrim items)
3 of the 5 items in the package are particularly worthless, like trinkets, clutter, wooden axe, heavy plates, iron bar, shovel, smithing resources, etc.
2 of the items have a slightly higher weight/value ratio: potion, steel dagger, very cheap scroll, etc. These are more intended to constantly get in the way of usual inventory actions - equipping, trading, dropping, looting - by 'poisoning' the lists with 'untouchable' items.

 

Player is simply told to keep carrying them. Intentionally, only a few items fall in the 'misc clutter' category, the rest fairly distributed over armor/weapons/potions/alchemic ingredients/soulgems. Especially alchemic ingredients and soulgems are great, since the player could accidentally craft with them and then has to 'fix' things by quickly getting more from somewhere before the next itemcheck- the mental load of memorization extends into various crafting menus. Player COULD craft some items, but aren't allowed to do so unless they gamble on getting the item within a week. Same for the smithing 'clutter' or basic food items - lots of mods mess with the food/drinks in the player's inventory, so that's an additional source of accidents!

 

INSPECTION TIME:

'Present Gear' Item-Check - As long as the package deal is active, the follower has a low chance (or whenever they're horny) of demanding the player to 'present' an item (either for usage or to see they still carry it) from an active package - this is a simple check whether the player still has at least an amount of one of the generic given item from an active package in their inventory. Items on the list are checked for existing in player inventory (maybe just random 2 of the 5), then dropped on the floor for 'quick inspection'. This could happen several times within the week, or no times at all - just to keep the players on their toes. If the player fails during the week (item not in inventory), there's "1_day's_worth_of_follower_pay" added to their debt per missing item as punishment (this avoids having to bother with individual item values.), and they might get punishment-sexed. They get told to try to fetch that item again in time, or deal with the consequences. This doesn't end the deal, it still goes on normally. Some other punishment can happen additionally. The fact that the player has to pick up the items again, extends the deal into 'picking up loot' activities in the player's mind, and gives the feeling of being a simple fetch dog picking up items just to have them dropped again.

 

 

JUDGEMENT DAY:

At the end of the week/deal, the same check is done, but for all the items of the active package, and the items get removed from play/moved to some unreachable follower-related-container-id instead of being dropped. If the player succeded, there's a chance of another one starting regardless of their will - a 'reliable packmule'. Also, the follower might add an additional package, or use one of a higher tier. If the player failed, even partially with just one item missing, the entire 'overall value' of the package (5x "1_day's_worth_of_follower_pay" ) gets added to their debt, the player gets punishment-sexed, and the deal simply ends. The player might still have some of the items in their inventory, but that doesn't bother the follower - this gives the player a hint that the items themselves might not be the main purpose of the activity. The crass debt increase can serve as hand-waving excuse on why the follower can afford to waste more valuable packages now.

 

PACKAGE VARIETY:

So player can't just keep a tiny mental list of '3 things I never drop' and be done with it, and to vary the difficulty of the deal at random, there should be at least two different packages to be chosen from - so they can drop some things as long as they keep the active item list in memory, constantly mentally keeping track of what they were told to carry. And if the player has partially failed a package, and just gotten another deal, they could end up with duplicates or items not in an active package, which they could sell - so the 'simple list of items not to touch' is subverted mentally again - or keep them 'just in case', giving in to the pressure even when it's not applied.

 

There could be tiers of higher packages (3 tiers) - depending on the player's total carrying capacity, level, etc; so once they get strong enough, and are of high enough level for the follower to believably possess some package, they have to carry some heavy iron warhammers, clunky dwemer items,... Probably not up to dragon bones, but you get the idea. Tiered packages also naturally lead into 'everything gets worse the next time' dynamics - as the packing mule gets more and more reliable, it gets tested harder and harder. As the packages grow to obscene amounts of carry-weight, they might actually include some useful armor/weapons which the player can use in combat. That mixes the sets of 'my gear to optimize' and 'things not belonging to me' mentally again - and it ties into all potential external mods 'stealing equipped weapons', 'dropping equipped weapons' - now there's additional stress when running after that dagger that got dropped in combat!

As if this isn't enough, there's a low chance of the low-value clutter items (first 3 entries of a package) getting stolen/'lost in the dark somewhere' if i.e. sleeping. Sure, in theory the player could just drop all the items by hand into the area before going to sleep to prevent that - but are they willing to trust skyrim's treacherous item physics that much? Also, that's quite bothersome, dropping swaths of items and picking them up everytime one sleeps, not to think about sleep-interrupting events. Might be much simpler to just hope the local traders have this clutter in stock, or steal it from someone's house. This is another dimension of freedom on how to solve the task at hand, and how to manage risks - put in extra work, just to avoid a small chance of potential failure/setback (i.e. item getting stolen from player inventory).

 

REQUIRED MECHANICS TO IMPLEMENT: (surprisingly few)
'package = list of 5 item IDs' - one package type consists of 5 item ids of generic skyrim items. Item lists could be hardcoded into the script, utilizing loot-lists, or levelled-loot-lists.
'checking for presence' - checks if item-entry of a chosen index-number on an active packages' list is in player inventory, if yes, drops it on floor, if no, adds 1 item to 'failure consequence' event afterwards (to not interrupt several itemchecks in row). (Debt increase, optional punishment/make-up-sex)
'checking all packages' - simply goes through all index-entries of active package lists with the mechanic above, but doesn't drop them, instead moves them to some unreachable follower-related-container, or simply removes them from game. If any failure happens, deal ends, 'deal failed' consequence is applied i.e. punishment/make-up-sex & debt-increase.

optional: random trigger of a chance to 'reliably lose' items with a formspec ID currently on an active list, at sleep, in inns, etc.

 

By only checking if the item is in the player's inventory, there's no coding headaches with stuff stored in follower inventory. It also reinforces the follower's stubborn, trickery attitude. Sure, the player can just throw the items back into the follower's inventory - but if then suddenly inspection time happens, the follower won't count those! The player agreed to take care of them, and having none of those items left in their inventory is clearly a sex-deserving failure.

 

RECOVERY OPTIONS:

One way to add more sex to the system, is to force some item-losing events (i.e. getting wasted at the inn, waking up later next day), and now the player has to figure out who out of 3-5 people had taken their item! One way to bribe them to get their 'memory' of the night back is by having sex, of course. But there's no way to tell beforehand if they actually took one of the items on the player's list, or if they just have grabbed some item that belonged to some unrelated NPC...

 

THEMES:

the deal can be taken to arbitrary directions of general tropes, both in 'success' and 'failure' outcomes:

Pony-Play; 'Sounds like somepony needs a constant reminder of their purpose.'
Enslaving/Support-Slut; 'You seem to be born for carrying my burdens.'
Careless/Sex-Addicted; 'Do you keep losing my things intentionally, or is that unconscious?'
Sadism; 'Maybe more pain will help you sharpen your memory.'
Moral; 'Discipline needs exercise, and you need a lot of it.'
Greedy; 'Don't worry. You will pay for those.'

 

 

ACCOMPLISHED EFFECT:

With this single deal, we have extended the terror and mental demands from simply 'equipped gear' control to put its tentacles into the entire interaction set of item physics, dropping items, picking up items, looting containers, dropping, selling, buying, crafting, stealing, eating, travelling to specific traders and locations. It's not just the inventory that belongs to the follower anymore- it's all the interaction related to inventories as well where their wishes have to be considered. All with the constant pressure on the mind to keep that damn list in memory, and the dangers of skyrim - or other mods - messing with the player's task - and inventory - without warning. Generous as we are, the player can always ask to get a reminder of which of their current items they have to especially keep an eye on. But bothering the follower with their inability to remember simple tasks obviously deserves a fee/debt increase, and since the 'reminder' which of their items to specially care about, is the same as the random in-week-check, but always going through all the items, the normal punishment applies for having lost items temporarily...

 

PACKAGE SUGGESTIONS: (some thought has been put into the compositions)

There just can be 1 package per tier, but that makes memorization much easier. Third tier can be rapidly more bothersome/trickier to get back lost items. The low-value clutter items should ideally be chosen so there's little FormID variants, and they can be fairly-reliably found/bought in respawnable areas. For the two more useful items, that doesn't matter much, they can require more specific locations to get them. A package should tie into at least 3 different item categories, ideally more. Due to carrying-capacity being a potential game killer, the following packages are fairly consistent and lightweight. Some packages have items that conflict with 'licenses' mods - the player has to either get the items back in time, or get the licenses. Also, some items might be seen as illegal - lockpick, moonsugar.
    ('Plate' has 5 formID-variants, 'Platter' just one -> use 'Platter' instead. Shovel has 2 variants, not reliably bought -> counts as medium rare.)

 

Example packages:

Spoiler

    See how bothersome all these lists below are? Noone could reasonably keep the 'untouchable items' of all categories in memory. That's the point!

        The website messed up my tab-formatted FORM-ID columns. But it's still readable.

Example Tier 1 Package A: (no weapons,armors,clothes in case of 'license' missing)
Platter            00098625
Iron Ingot        0005ACE4
Venison            000669A2
Potion of Minor Healing    0003eadd
Torch            0001D4EC

Example Tier 1 Package B: (no weapons,armors,clothes in case of 'license' missing)
Sack of Flour        xx003538
Leather            000DB5D2
Wooden Plate        00031941
Petty Soulgem (Petty)    0002E4E3
Bleeding Crown        0004DA20

Example Tier 2 Package A: (weapon)
Steel Ingot        0005ace5
Ale            00034C5E
Ruined Book (Version A)    000ce70b
Lesser Soulgem (Lesser)    0002E4E5
Pickaxe            000E3C16

Example Tier 2 Package B: (lockpick, armor)
Lockpick        0000000A
Dog Meat        000EDB2E
Iron Ore        00071cf3
Shovel    (Version A)    000F5D05
Hide Armor        00013911

Example Tier 3 Package A: (weapon)
Boar Tusk        xx01cd6f
Firewood        0006f993
Silver Ore        0005acdf
Book: Trap        xx029102
Iron Battleaxe        00013980

Example Tier 3 Package B: (clothes)
Ragged Robes        00013105
Deer Hide        000D284D
Moonsugar        000D8E3F
Scroll of Ironflesh     000A449B
Large Dwemer Strut    000C8872

 

 

 

 

Location Control:
How to give the player some flexibility (not demand a lv1 player to run into a draugr-boss cave, which they obviously won't do), but still force their choice of travel?

 

Spoiler

SIGHTSEEING/OLD FRIEND:

Follower hears in town that one of his old companions has been seen around <insert town>. Demands to go there within the next two weeks, to look for them. When player goes to said town, follower tells them to wait outside some cell. player has to wait while follower goes inside, does whatever they do, without bothering to tell the player. After a while, follower comes back, either disappointed - the friend has left already, and it's the player's fault they were too slow to come here! Or is satisfied, having found some answers (or even the friend). Since the player is stuck waiting somewhere (kennel/front of inn door/wherever), they have no idea what happens inside anyway. If player leaves the area in the meantime, or tries to enter the cell to join the 'investigation/private conversation', they get a bounty (for whatever 'contract-breachy' reason.), and more debt. Player is stuck waiting outside, their mind the whole time occupied with hoping for a good outcome, and no way to know if it comes, or to change it. But really, it's just an excuse to avoid having to code another dialog. The rate of satisfying outcomes can be higher in the first week, and lower in the second one. And the most important part: While the follower is busy, some 'trouble' can find the player, most likely sex-related/blackmail/kidnapping/whatever. Did the follower intentionally lead them here, waiting nearby the 'drunk-devious-clothing-traders' convention? They are convinced that the player obviously wouldn't be waiting in this particular spot at this particular time if they wouldn't want some 'gifts', deliberately looking for trouble. So, 'gifts' or 'trouble' it is!

 

DAMAGED PACKAGE:

This ties into the 'packing mule' deal explained in the spoiler above. The player's package items got lost! Luckily for them, the follower allows them to make it up to them, just one time - they either try to get the package ingredients back (in reality, try to fetch new versions of the generic items), or have to go to a certain location where the follower can get 'fitting replacements', within two weeks, which leaves the player with only a minor punishment. The player is given a piece of paper containing a list of items of the package (like an alchemy recipe paper). All pieces of these types of paper will be retrieved again once the location has been reached, or the player tells that they have gotten all items - if they lose the list, that's an additional punishment! However, the player could intentionally 'lose' this paper, stash it somewhere to have an easy reminder for what one type of package looks like. Of course, they should better hide it somewhere it doesn't get confiscated later...

 

 

Edit: replaced flat 200Gold fine per item with "1_day's_worth_of_follower_pay". Could also just be 100G/200G, but there's no reason to make balancing more complicated.

[Yukitemi]

Couple of things I noticed.

When in 3rd stage of bondage deal(or looking pretty) after a follower do their thing with the mouth and re-equip a gag - color doesn't match with what it was before or what they gave me. Meanwhile everything else has matching color.

Same thing with armbinders in modular deal.

 

When gambling the dept that is added by it gets reduced by a discount. Idk if it's intentional or not, but with that it's a very easy way to make money by gambling and making deals.

 

And when follower gives a gag, 80% of them is pony type. I understand why is that, but is there a way to reduce the chance of them?

[Darkwing241]

16 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I am considering the benefits of a "Contract" mechanic, which could show up as a list of agreement terms in the MCM.

Terms could come and go from this contract, depending on what you agree with the follower through dialogs.

 

I love these. Having things come from a few different angles would make things more organic for every phase of the DF game.  Rules, Games, deals ect. I've written at length about the thematic submissiveness of contract signing in the past as well.