Devious Followers - Continued

[Snook001]

2 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I always thought it was a bit odd that DF didn't do much with prostitution, given that the follower is so cash-fixated.

The scenes that exist are more about humiliation of devaluing the PC rather than making money.

 

In practice, it sort of works out. You use a prostitution mod of your choice with DFC and there is already a pressure to produce cash. If you mix with other mods that can limit adventuring (such as SLS) or that can protect from rapes if you have a follower, then it works out quite well. You can simply disable the level 3 whore deal and it will all make sense. In that case, the only (real) whoring (for cash) by DFC will be when enslaved.

 

So, after a while you get used to that situation and stop thinking it's a big deal. Even so, I did put overhaul of the entire whore deal on the roadmap at the start of the year.

I think the picture that's emerging is that a lot of players don't care about that deal specifically; they are more interested in how those scenes would play out if they are present than whether they are prostitution deal specific.

 

What I mean, is that many players don't care so much about whether there is a real whoring-money mechanic, but they do care that there are humiliating situations based around being whored out.

 

The problem is that they are devious boots. Removing or refitting them is slow in DD 4.3 - and player interest in updating DFC properly for 5 is actually quite low.

It wouldn't make sense to remove and replace them for each scene, but there are alternatives.

 

Perhaps the follower could allow you to remove them if your inside an inn, or some other specific kind of location?

That's a little strange, but if a few people think it would help them, I could add that.

 

The deeper problem is that SexLab doesn't let you configure the animation adjustments differently for heels present/absent, only allows you to auto-remove heel offsets. That was the wrong solution IMHO. My personal solution is to try to always have heels, and configure the animation adjustments accordingly.

Hope this is all compress automatically and does not take to much space. 

 

Re-thinking about it, you are probably right DD4.3 Vs DD5.1, you have a point.   So, let's keep the boots as they are, I'll just tinker them and disable them in the ... tab something. 

 

But humiliation and devaluation, no.  We want something that first will make it more difficult to get money.  Plenty of mods like that.  Otherwise, why even bother.  In my first play-through, I had so much money, I did not know what to do with it, and I'm pretty sure I did invest in every shop.  Dang, I must have been richer than all the Jarls combined. 

 

So taking into account money is hard to combine, and I don't want to get away from DF by the way, I just want to have a role reversal were, when money don't get in fast enough, then prostitution is the means to reach end's meet.

 

It even better, if prostitution is the only options.   After all, Who would pay an 100 Septims for an old rusty iron sword?

 

Humiliation and devaluation is one thing, but it does not bring what you need in the end...$$

 

Now a slave could do that, but you need to fall in the trap.  And it must not be easy.  Any slave who just fall in an easy trap will just die in the first dungeon.  Any slave who can out-match her master will come back with the story she wants and no one will be the wiser.  So you need a slave who has a reason to remain a slave.  And who will bring money to the Owner, and benefit.  I'll let you guess from there, but if it includes prostitution, it better be a good, power...some how full master that understand the need of the slave and get what both needs. 

 

I love all the devious parts, except the boots, but that is more a programing problem (and my comp is good), the lactacid and milking, asking for spanking, Lola has a similar thing which can buff the owner, (Only useful vs SD+ Bad Ass Boss at elite level), there may be a few other mod involved, but I'm not sure.

 

Actually this is the reason I stated a new play, at level 69 ( It was really 69.  Don't think like a pervert ?) I was owning so badly that we never got raped, my follower never lost life, HELL, I'm sure if I had her naked it would not have changed anything (beside distracting me ?). 

 

So I started a new game.  but I don't get enslave.  I reduce the drop and the sell price,  Items cost more.  Quest reward are less, (still don't know why when I bring a letter to the over side of town I get more money than killing and bandit ?).  To pay her, I have to user the (Radiant Prostitution Mod), which help some how, I still collect deals.  Still no games? .

 

And I'm now at the point when I'm searching for a means to get enslave so I get prostituted (not my first choice) to add some spice to the game.

 

Preferably not from a book or a rigged sale, cause each time I end up as a pony or one of the daedric lord wants to play with me for a few minutes.

 

Please just send me a screen shot of the punishments tab with the solution.  Thanks.

[CaptainJ03]

@Snook001 About boots: Did you try the rubber socks that come with the DD catsuits? They have no heels, so non-adjusting should work well ?

 

About getting enslaved: I just had that happen yesterday. Didn't bother to pay the follower at all, added some debt via Debug option in MCM, after ~5 days she got angry and put me in collar, boots and mitts.

 

Spoiler

 

@Lupine00 had a small bug with the mittens: They did not equip. I was wearing SLtR collar, some DD boots and gloves. Collar and boots worked w/o problem, my gloves stayed on (and Master was pissed for me not wearing them) Only thing I remember what was different to the other items was, that I had manipulated the locks.

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, CaptainJ03 said:

had a small bug with the mittens: They did not equip.

Sometimes this is just DD, I'm afraid.

Try and equip too many items at once in 4.3 and it usually fails.

So you have to add delays, but the required delay will depend on the game and computer, etc. so sometimes the delay I use isn't enough.

 

 

Perhaps, occasionally, this happens because of a problem in LDC, but I have no evidence to prove it.

 

Sometimes things will fail because you have detached scripts, which are an indicator of something in your game that has serious problems.

Once you have scripts that are detached, or have corrupted VMADs, you usually see a lot of garbage in the log about how such and such a property couldn't be filled because it was the wrong type (not just the occasional message, but a lot).

If you see anything fitting that pattern, your game needs serious surgery to rescue it.

 

 

There isn't a bug in DFC that causes problems with the mittens, or any other device strictly speaking.

 

(Well, there may be in some mis-assigned property in a particular case, but that sort of issue is always 100% reproducible).

Perhaps moving to DD5 would solve the randomly occurring issues, or make them a lot less frequent?

I don't know for sure. The only way to do is to make that change, and it seems like that isn't top of most people's wish-list right now.

 

 

The solution for any item that you weren't given is to use the Debug MCM to add the item.

For "slave" items, there is also a button to get all the items.

Destroy any items you don't need, or just drop them in a barrel.

 

It's not ideal, but it lets you keep on playing without too much trouble.

[Lupine00]

10 hours ago, Snook001 said:

I try to get the Lola enslaved through DF ?.  I have a hard time setting that up in the Punishments tab ?.  Can someone put a screen shot of that tab, which will lead to the proper enslavement?  Seems in this case someone need to draw me a picture?.

Set the Lola weight to 100 and the other weights to 0.

 

Also, if you want to get enslaved easily, simply lower the enslavement debt setting and leave regular enslavement enabled.

Then, you will annoy the follower at a much lower level of debt.

There are some other factors though.

[Snook001]

2 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Set the Lola weight to 100 and the other weights to 0.

 

Also, if you want to get enslaved easily, simply lower the enslavement debt setting and leave regular enslavement enabled.

Then, you will annoy the follower at a much lower level of debt.

There are some other factors though.

Thanks, I will try that

 

[Snook001]

6 hours ago, CaptainJ03 said:

@Snook001 About boots: Did you try the rubber socks that come with the DD catsuits? They have no heels, so non-adjusting should work well ?

 

About getting enslaved: I just had that happen yesterday. Didn't bother to pay the follower at all, added some debt via Debug option in MCM, after ~5 days she got angry and put me in collar, boots and mitts.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

@Lupine00 had a small bug with the mittens: They did not equip. I was wearing SLtR collar, some DD boots and gloves. Collar and boots worked w/o problem, my gloves stayed on (and Master was pissed for me not wearing them) Only thing I remember what was different to the other items was, that I had manipulated the locks.

Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for

[spyke123]

Wich (vanilla) followers use the female sultry voice type ?

[Yukitemi]

11 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Gag theming etc. is a harder problem to solve. Again, needs LDC rewrite

If I remember correctly it was working fine some time ago tho. They were putting back gags and armbinders exactly ones they removed. Contrary to armbinders in modular deal - straight jacket deal do match color and material. Well... unless it was coincidence.

[Fulanoo]

Hey @finalfrog, I'm crashing whenever I try to use the line "How does it work?" when asking a devious follower to remove a device.
I'm using FemaleYoungEager voice. Removing all the _DFlow_DFlowHelp_XXXXXXXX_X.fuz "fixes" it.

[SirasC]

Hey! Just want to open up with how great a mod this is. Been using it since it first came out and I've always enjoyed it.

Just ran into a bit of a problem with MME. Well not even really a problem. I don't know how exactly to give my follower the milk. I trigger the dialogue and she says something about how she's waiting for it. I've tried trading it with her. I wanted to drop a post in here while I try to figure it out.

[darkfender666]

No idea if it has been already mentioned but there are FREQUENT but random issue equipping armbinder with modular deals.

 

about 50% of the times (tested on 2 games) it get equipped badly with arms visible.

Struggle and other animation works properly.

 

Unequipping and reequipping it solves the issue and any other mod equipping devices don't have same problem. 

[Lupine00]

6 hours ago, SirasC said:

Just ran into a bit of a problem with MME. Well not even really a problem. I don't know how exactly to give my follower the milk. I trigger the dialogue and she says something about how she's waiting for it. I've tried trading it with her. I wanted to drop a post in here while I try to figure it out.

You make the follower happy by using the milker.

If you have new enough version of MME, milk goes to the follower automatically and you don't get any.

 

If you are getting the milk, it's broken.

[Lupine00]

2 hours ago, darkfender666 said:

about 50% of the times (tested on 2 games) it get equipped badly with arms visible.

If it's randomly broken, the chance of it being caused by DFC is very slim indeed.

 

All DFC can do is call with the wrong items, and that would be 100% failure.

 

It's likely even the exact same LDC code whether you go through the modular deal or by some other means.

I can look, but the answer is probably always going to be "needs update to 5.X"

[SirasC]

2 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

You make the follower happy by using the milker.

If you have new enough version of MME, milk goes to the follower automatically and you don't get any.

 

If you are getting the milk, it's broken.

Thanks for pointing out the version. I forgot I was still using the 2019 scripts! Fixing it now.

[Seeker999]

If you're interested, I compiled a list of all the potential followers I could find and matched them to a voice pack. Behind a spoiler, due to length.

Spoiler

Adelaisa Vendicci	FemaleCommander
Aela the Huntress	FemaleCommander
Agmaer DG	MaleYoungEager
Ahtar	MaleBrute
Annekke Crag-Jumper	FemaleEvenToned
Aranea Ienith	FemaleDarkElf
Argis the Bulwark	MaleBrute
Athis	MaleDarkElf
Beleval DG	FemaleSultry
Belrand	MaleNord
Benor	MaleBrute
Borgakh the Steel Heart	FemaleOrc
Brelyna Maryon	FemaleYoungEager
Calder	MaleNord
Celann DG	MaleEvenToned
Cicero	Cicero
Cosnach	MaleDrunk
Dark Brotherhood Initiate (female)	FemaleSultry
Dark Brotherhood Initiate (male)	MaleSlyCynical
Derkeethus	MaleArgonian
Durak DG	MaleOrc
Eola	FemaleSultry
Erandur	MaleDarkElf
Erik the Slayer	MaleYoungEager
Faendal	MaleEvenToned
Farkas	MaleBrute
Frea	Frea
Ghorbash the Iron Hand	MaleOrc
Golldir	MaleNord
Gregor HF	MaleNord
Illia	FemaleEvenToned
Ingjard DG	FemaleCondescending
Iona	FemaleCommander
Jenassa	FemaleDarkElf
Jordis the Sword-Maiden	FemaleYoungEager
J'zargo	MaleKhajiit
Kharjo	MaleKhajiit
Lob	MaleOrc
Lydia	FemaleEvenToned
Marcurio	MaleEvenToned
Mjoll the Lioness	FemaleNord
Njada Stonearm	FemaleCondescending
Ogol	MaleOrc
Onmund	MaleYoungEager
Ralis Sedarys	DLC2MaleDarkElfCynical
Rayya HF	FemaleCommander
Ria	FemaleEvenToned
Roggi Knot-Beard	MaleNord
Serana	Serana
Stenvar	MaleBrute
Sven	MaleYoungEager
Talvas Fathryon DB	MaleYoungEager
Teldryn Sero DB	DLC2MaleDarkElfCynical
Torvar	MaleDrunk
Ugor	FemaleOrc
Uthgerd the Unbroken	FemaleCommander
Valdimar HF	MaleNord
Vilkas	MaleNord
Vorstag	MaleEvenTonedAccented

 

 

It's probably no surprise that of 36 potential male followers MaleNord is the most used male voice (7), followed by MaleBrute (5) and MaleYoungEager (5).

However, only Mjoll the Lioness uses the FemaleNord voice. From 23 potential female followers, the most used female voice is FemaleCommander (5). Second is FemaleEvenToned (4), but otherwise spread out pretty evenly.

[darkfender666]

7 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

If it's randomly broken, the chance of it being caused by DFC is very slim indeed.

 

All DFC can do is call with the wrong items, and that would be 100% failure.

 

It's likely even the exact same LDC code whether you go through the modular deal or by some other means.

I can look, but the answer is probably always going to be "needs update to 5.X"

 

Well the strange thing is i have many mods that equips armbinder.

DCL for example never once gave issues nor older nor new version.

 

Instead even older versions of DF gave me same exact problem with same exact situation. 

Since then i updated many mods and yet the only one remains this.

 

So it could be a conflict with DF and some other mod i use andthat is not updated since a lot (i keep almost everything up to date) or an issue on DF. 

 

Its not a gamebreaking issue since it can be solved with an easy workaround just wanted to report it in case someone else ha sthe same problem to confirm.

 

[SirasC]

6 hours ago, SirasC said:

Thanks for pointing out the version. I forgot I was still using the 2019 scripts! Fixing it now.

Updated the scripts and it works great now! Thanks for your help.

[Lupine00]

7 hours ago, darkfender666 said:

DCL for example never once gave issues nor older nor new version.

You must be very lucky. I have had DCL fail hundreds of times.

 

The devices you are already wearing prior to equip are relevant to the outcome, but the scope for the code or objects to be corrupted by other mods is usually low.

Devious Lore is an obvious exception here, as it  touches almost all the DD assets, and so maybe that could make a difference? However, I've played with and without, and didn't find it made any difference to reliability of equips. None at all.

 

Reliability of equips is far more dependent on whether you are attempting to equip multiple devices in succession than anything else.

Sequential equips often fail, and often failed in DCL quests. Less often in traps.

Also, if you already have devices of that exact type in your inventory, it can cause a problem. I don't see that issue in 5 though.

 

Other than that, there is literally no scope for DFC to "mess around" with the equips. There are only a couple of ways to call them. Either you call a generic equip and DD picks, or you pass both devices. There's a little more to it than that. There are additional parameters. If you're adding a lot of items there's a certain way to do it, but it's all fundamentally unsafe because the locks do not work with reliability in 4.X - reliable thread locking in Skyrim is only possible via C++ custom code. StorageUtil can do it, but DD4.X did not use StorageUtil for that.

 

If you're passing both devices, chances are they are in properties in the script.

 

In DFC, that's the case. So, if those devices are wrong, they are always wrong. 100%. They will never be right. There is no randomness there. No scope for randomness.

 

However when DFC equips via the LDC, you can get different devices each time. Perhaps sometimes it picks a bad device, but that wasn't DFC's "fault", the device was not correctly set up. In that case, try excluding that device from LDC so you always get something else.

 

As LDC obtains the item pair via code, that won't be wrong (or it would always be wrong). So again, random behavior has to follow certain patterns and indicates specific kinds of flaw.

 

These patterns occur in some games and not in others because of how Papyrus threading works. If you happen to get all the right Papyrus running on the same core, you can get flawless function. If interacting routines get spread across cores, all kinds of weird bugs show up. Papyrus is filled with these bugs. Literally riddled with them. SE makes them a lot more obvious, as it added more threads but fixed none of the bugs.

 

For example, sometimes I can call into a quest from a dialog, and I will see a completely fresh copy of that quest. The exact same dialog can run at a different time, and it will see the real state of the quest. With this bug, it's the right quest, the right script, but all of its properties and data are as if the quest was just created - filled properties are set, but the quest is literally in a DIFFERENT stage with different variable value and property values. That's not supposed to happen. Quests are unique singletons. A quest can't hold two stages! The only rational explanation is that the quest was not in one core's view of memory due to lack of cache writeback. I also found that StorageUtil data is fully immune to this problem. 

 

I suspect that you also see this more on modern high-core-count CPUs, and the newer the architecture, the more you see it. Skyrim was doing ... something ... that caused cache synching on older CPU editions, but those editions had different caching mechanisms, and are fading from use now, and so on my compact-room-heating 11900K, I see issues I never used to see on my old Skylake. Users with Ryzens are probably seeing even more incidence of problems due to more cores. Though perhaps they see less due to how the caches operate?

 

 

But to return to the point. If you have random DD equip problems, it's very likely either due to a particular device that LDC picks, or it's due to DD 4.3 being old and having issues that are hopefully fixed in 5.1+, or it's because LDC has internal race conditions and isn't thread-safe.

 

If you have consistent, 100% reproducible equip problems. That is likely a badly set up script in DFC.

 

 

As I've noted time and time again, rewrite of LDC and move to 5.X have to go together. Any other approach is crazy. The poll shows that people's care factor for this is ... not so much ... so it's unlikely to be fixed any time soon.

[Sgt. Marge]

On 5/14/2021 at 7:59 AM, spyke123 said:

Wich (vanilla) followers use the female sultry voice type ?

 

Here's a list of all females that use Skyrim-Voice-FemaleSultry per UESP.

 

Here's the UESP list of followers, if you click on the follower name and scroll all the way to the bottom there's a link for the specific voice type.

[Lupine00]

27 minutes ago, Marg597 said:

Here's the UESP list of followers

Probably a lot of players have about 100 (not joking) female followers that are from mods.

As the vast majority of mod-added followers are marriageable, they usually use either commander, sultry, or youngeager with darkelf, eventoned and orc following up.

 

The Nexus has (literally) hundreds of female follower mods.

 

I'd guess a preponderance of Nexus follower mods by Asian authors are young eager, and I'd guess a good percentage of female follower mods are from those areas (maybe half?)

 

That's just my conclusion from years of watching them being posted; a proper statistical survey might reveal a different result.

 

Also, in SKVA, youngeager produces one of the best results - probably because it matches the model well - which was originally built around a female voice library with a mild US accent.

[Lupine00]

Regarding the report that the gambling game applies discount to the debt...

 

I can find no evidence or cause for this in the code.

It uses the old "Debt()" code, which does not handle discounts.

 

However, if you have a payment penalty, that will be applied, if in gold control. So any credit you gain can be reduced.

 

Was some other game the topic here?

Or was some other issue being observed?

 

I tidied up the gambling code a bit, but didn't really change anything. If it's giving a discount on debt it's doing it in a way that's outsmarted me!

 

Knowing DF, there could easily be another copy of the code somewhere I suppose...

 

 

Regarding the complaint about armbinders (other than the modular deal), can you clarify what dialog resulted in the armbinder addition?

In the humiliation deal, the code to add the armbinder is deterministic, no random device:

 

libs.EquipDevice(libs.PlayerRef, I , R, libs.zad_DeviousArmbinder)

I and R are filled with a DF made binder, so that's slightly unusual, but either it should work always, or never work.

Any reason it works only randomly would be internal to DD.

The script it's using comes from DD, but because it's a DF provided device it will still have an old script, even if you have DD 5.X

[finalfrog]

On 5/14/2021 at 8:14 PM, Fulanoo said:

Hey @finalfrog, I'm crashing whenever I try to use the line "How does it work?" when asking a devious follower to remove a device.
I'm using FemaleYoungEager voice. Removing all the _DFlow_DFlowHelp_XXXXXXXX_X.fuz "fixes" it.

Looks like the lip for those were generated by the Creation Kit. I'll bet it crashed in the middle of generating one of those or just generated junk for no good reason. Here's a fixed version using the fake .lips. You can ignore the .wav version unless you want to try it for the "HQ" experience. It's mostly in case I lose the original files so I don't have to regenerate them (like I did tonight).

1549307700_FemaleYoungEager_Fix_WavLip.zip FemaleYoungEager_Fix_Fuz.zip

[darkfender666]

3 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

 

But to return to the point. If you have random DD equip problems, it's very likely either due to a particular device that LDC picks, or it's due to DD 4.3 being old and having issues that are hopefully fixed in 5.1+, or it's because LDC has internal race conditions and isn't thread-safe.

 

If you have consistent, 100% reproducible equip problems. That is likely a badly set up script in DFC.

 

 

As I've noted time and time again, rewrite of LDC and move to 5.X have to go together. Any other approach is crazy. The poll shows that people's care factor for this is ... not so much ... so it's unlikely to be fixed any time soon.

Nope non random 

Only armbinders only from DFC.

 

Instead. the chains works perfectly... so its limited to armbinders.

 

But lets ignore it for now..if anyone will have the same issue will find this post and will probably give more infos to find the problem.. as said since unequipping and reequipping (manually not via consoles) solves the issue and doesn't break DFC functions, its ok. 

[Lupine00]

14 minutes ago, darkfender666 said:

Only armbinders only from DFC.

But which armbinders?

 

What dialog fitted them?

 

What are the device IDs?

 

What version of Skyrim are you running LE, or SE?

 

Do you have Devious Lore?

 

Did you edit your LDC config file? What's in it for armbinders?

 

What version of DD are you using? Is it still 4.3? Your original report created the impression you saw it on 4.3 then updated to 5.X.

 

 

Also you said this was random before (randomly has arms showing) but now say it's not random. I'm lost.

It's quite frustrating for people to report a "bug", then not provide any detail to allow reproduction, then change the basic qualities of the bug being reported, still without providing any detail that would allow reproduction.

 

It is - in fact - a huge waste of everyone's time. You don't get the bug fixed, and I waste an afternoon I could have spent on new development chasing a vaguely defined issue I don't even have repro instructions for.

 

 

Personally, I'm still seeing lots of devices in DD5.1 that don't correctly apply override animations, which could be an interaction with another mod, but it's not specific to armbinders - in fact armbinders are mostly fine - but gags and front-cuff chains less so.

[Sgt. Marge]

5 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Also, in SKVA, youngeager produces one of the best results - probably because it matches the model well - which was originally built around a female voice library with a mild US accent.

 

Survival assigned me a follower elf yesterday so I decided to edit her esp and change her voice to Female Elf Haughty.  Now it feels like I've got Niranye or Taarie following me around and I'm sure she's going to start bullying me about my choice of outfits at any moment.  Of course, Relationship Dialogue Overhaul is a must have since it adds follower dialogue for many default voices that didn't have them in Vanilla.  When I asked her to trade and she said "Show me what you've got" I had to laugh. 

 

I try to keep my modded follower list to a minimum out of concern for the quality control on some of the mods, but it's really neat to have so many options now if I want to change their voice and have the devious dialogue.  It always made me roll my eyes that so many modded followers all used the same voice.  And I get it, it's well acted and funny, but... "my immersion" ?