framework Advanced Animation Framework

[blue35e]

2 hours ago, Arthacs said:

moddingham is suposed to be a joke, right ?

Honestly the sight layout and name did make it look like a joke. Odd that the download link here takes you to another site when this is a mod hosting site. I can understand that he felt you did not want to be on Nexus. But the fact that the link here is not a download but is a link to his own site and it looks kind of sketchy, like something else going on.

[darthvaapad]

10 hours ago, blue35e said:

Honestly the sight layout and name did make it look like a joke. Odd that the download link here takes you to another site when this is a mod hosting site. I can understand that he felt you did not want to be on Nexus. But the fact that the link here is not a download but is a link to his own site and it looks kind of sketchy, like something else going on.

I remember reading earlier in the thread that they didn't want the mod hosted on a NSFW site. The previous link also led to nexus when the mod was on that site.

Edited August 3, 2021 by darthvaapad

[KatieLlymlaen]

So I came here 'cause I had a bug, but now I kinda don't care. I'm more interested in people who clearly went to Zuckerberg Law School trying to out-lawyer one another. 

 

For both professional and ethical reasons, the following is Not Legal Advice. I want to represent literally zero people here. 

 

TOS do count as contracts. They are legally binding. And, in rare instances, you can actually accrue damages from TOS violations, but you do have to actually engage in lawsuits to get those damages. And I'm going to promise you, no one breaking Moddingham's TOS will have enough assets to make that anything more than a very, very annoying vanity project. 

 

But talking about TOS seems to be a distraction from the IP claims. Code is protected under copyright law. That does authorize AAF (I'm treating the entire project as a legal entity for convenience) to avail itself of the DMCA. And, on paper, things would go exactly as explained by the mod author. The problem is what happens in practice.

 

The consequences of violation of a cease and desist is a lawsuit. That's all that is. And that lawsuit has to be instigated by the aggrieved party, in this case AAF. If someone were to republish AAF elsewhere and received and ignored a cease and desist, it isn't like you can call the cops on them or the law just happens, it hast to be addressed through lawsuits. Sending a cease and desist is generally just a warning shot, it's not an action that has binding consequences in itself. Moreover, on the off-chance the person getting the letter has a lawyer, you'll want a lawyer writing your cease and desist.

The DMCA takedown is very similar. Most places will just follow a DMCA order because it's easier than doing an investigation, and this is actually regularly used as a means of harassment - person A uses person B's words to critique their larger bad behavior in a digital medium and person B attempts to issue a DMCA takedown on just legally indefensible grounds knowing the platform will remove the content either way. But keep in mind, not all platforms behave this way. In fact, if you look at the wide range of piracy websites that exist, you can see that there are a lot of platforms that don't especially fear DMCA orders. 

And then, again, you can't just call the cops. You need to lawyer up. Because a platform like this won't defend the action, instead they'll deflect liability. And they hire people who are really good at deflecting liability. Suddenly you're in for a protracted battle that, yes, you'll probably win but on the other side of potentially years of your life sunk into the issue. 

All in all, what I'm saying is, in the event that does happen to you - which unless you wanna sue Nexus for some reason I'm saying probably isn't ever getting that far - it could be way, way more trouble than it's worth to press. Especially because any fighting after the initial shot across the bow will be acrimonious and expensive for, yes, both parties. The defendant will make sure you pay out the nose for the fight. Believe me, I know how to make the side in the right side of the law in a case like this regret suiting up and just taking a lackluster settlement. And, again, that's assuming whoever you're going after has anything to actually give to recoup your legal expenses. 

Oh, and if you tried to come to me with the idea that someone saying they wouldn't use your project was a threat, I would quietly turn your case down and then laugh so hard when you left the room. So. Hard. 

 

Since you both don't want advice and I won't actually give it, I'll just toss out to the room in general that ensuring privacy protections to personal information you collect as part of your TOS, so you can be sued if you violate it, or anonymizing the data would be good solutions to the gathering personal information part. I know I don't want to be publicly associated with my fetishes, and I assume others don't as well. It's uncomfortable giving strangers the power to out your kinks.

As a personal aside, I support the move away from Nexus. I've worked on a few nonlewd mods and we've had the discussions. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer here. I do think, though, that the dear mod author is being a little bit prissy about it and that sours my opinion of the project. I'm sure you'll break this into individual quotes and try and assail my credibility even as I'm ostensibly agreeing with you because that just seems to be the tone here, and that's not exactly a positive user experience. 

Also, as another personal aside, I still would like to see an alternative framework just because, no offense meant, I get the feeling you unintentionally stifled development of other frameworks and that's a shame because AAF is a little less than stellar, you know. It's not FourPlay, but it's no SexLab. And it's a bit "selfish" in that if it isn't the only scripted thing in your load order I've noticed it unraveling after significant playtime. I don't think I've ever run it beside Sim Settlements and not regretted that decision. I'm sure I could make it work, which, incidentally, is what brought me here in the first place, but eh, honestly, not worth it. Modding is a house of cards and I've always felt like AAF needs to be it's own separate house, if that makes sense, which just isn't a design aesthetic I appreciate as someone who enjoys heavily altering the base game's experience. 

It's just, somehow I'm not caring to fix it anymore. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by KatieLlymlaen

[dagobaking]

On 8/3/2021 at 1:30 AM, Arthacs said:

moddingham is suposed to be a joke, right ?

 

Perhaps humor isn't your forte?

 

On 8/3/2021 at 4:18 AM, blue35e said:

Honestly the sight layout and name did make it look like a joke. Odd that the download link here takes you to another site when this is a mod hosting site. I can understand that he felt you did not want to be on Nexus. But the fact that the link here is not a download but is a link to his own site and it looks kind of sketchy, like something else going on.

 

I feel that I've been clear about the motivations behind the change. Please let me know what else you think might be going on?

 

On 8/3/2021 at 3:11 PM, darthvaapad said:

I remember reading earlier in the thread that they didn't want the mod hosted on a NSFW site. The previous link also led to nexus when the mod was on that site.

 

Thank you. Exactly.

 

57 minutes ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

So I came here 'cause I had a bug, but now I kinda don't care. I'm more interested in people who clearly went to Zuckerberg Law School trying to out-lawyer one another. 

 

I guess attempting to out-piss others is more fun than modding?

 

57 minutes ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

For both professional and ethical reasons, the following is Not Legal Advice. I want to represent literally zero people here. 

 

Delicious.

 

57 minutes ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

And I'm going to promise you, no one breaking Moddingham's TOS will have enough assets to make that anything more than a very, very annoying vanity project.

 

A) You might be surprised by how much money is at stake in the platforms designed to bundle/automate use of other peoples work. There is a reason why multiple parties have taken it on including a multi-year effort by Nexus.

 

B) The host providers who are protected by DMCA do typically have plenty of assets to go after. Which is why they generally prefer to respond to cease and desists rather than make their assets vulnerable to a successful law suit.

 

57 minutes ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

The DMCA takedown is very similar. Most places will just follow a DMCA order because it's easier than doing an investigation, and this is actually regularly used as a means of harassment - person A uses person B's words to critique their larger bad behavior in a digital medium and person B attempts to issue a DMCA takedown on just legally indefensible grounds knowing the platform will remove the content either way. But keep in mind, not all platforms behave this way. In fact, if you look at the wide range of piracy websites that exist, you can see that there are a lot of platforms that don't especially fear DMCA orders.

 

A) You acknowledge AAF has legally defensible grounds and that most places will follow the order. So, how are you disagreeing with what I argued earlier?

 

B) If a host doesn't comply with DMCA and I put a copyright on file I can go after attorney fees as well as damages from the host.

 

C) I disagree that there are a wide range of piracy websites any more. The DMCA to a large extent has been effective at forcing such efforts to constantly have to move, change hosts, etc. The closest thing we have to persistence in that area are torrent sites. But, they have a unique gray area argument due to the peer-to-peer nature of torrents. And even they struggle to maintain the same domain names and hosts.

 

57 minutes ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

And then, again, you can't just call the cops. You need to lawyer up. Because a platform like this won't defend the action, instead they'll deflect liability. And they hire people who are really good at deflecting liability. Suddenly you're in for a protracted battle that, yes, you'll probably win but on the other side of potentially years of your life sunk into the issue. 

 

The prospect you describe is scary for the defense. Not for the party that stands to gain damages plus attorney fees. And they are weighing that option next to a very easy and inexpensive solution for themselves: compliance.

 

57 minutes ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

Oh, and if you tried to come to me with the idea that someone saying they wouldn't use your project was a threat, I would quietly turn your case down and then laugh so hard when you left the room. So. Hard. 

 

If you came at me and said this post wasn't legal advice because you said so at the beginning I would quietly turn down hiring you as an attorney and laugh so hard when you left the room.

 

Additionally, you seem to be confused about this particular point. In what way is "if you don't change your hosting I'm not going to use future versions of your mod" not a threat? By definition, it is a threat. I didn't say that it was a threat of violence or even a threat that I am worried about. But, nevertheless, it was a threat.

 

57 minutes ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

I do think, though, that the dear mod author is being a little bit prissy about it and that sours my opinion of the project.

 

Ad hominem now? I may have gone to the "Zuckerberg Law School". But, then, where did you go? The Michael Avenatti Law School?

 

57 minutes ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

I'm sure you'll break this into individual quotes and try and assail my credibility even as I'm ostensibly agreeing with you because that just seems to be the tone here, and that's not exactly a positive user experience.

 

If you want to attack me I'm going to defend myself. And breaking your wall of text into quotes is just a practically useful feature of the forum.

 

Regarding credibility, I don't doubt that you are an attorney or have other professional legal experience. And I don't really dispute your explanation of laws (they support what I've argued). But, I think, as I have seen with many other lawyers I've worked with, your business understanding is well below your knowledge of laws.

 

And if you can attack my credibility up front ("Zuckerberg Law School") then I think it's fair game for me to at least go with the educated guess that I have the upper hand in the business experience department.

 

57 minutes ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

Also, as another personal aside, I still would like to see an alternative framework just because, no offense meant, I get the feeling you unintentionally stifled development of other frameworks and that's a shame because AAF is a little less than stellar, you know.

 

Now you are just being dishonest like the earlier guy. You obviously are trying to offend here. Which is fine. You're talking about a free mod. It's not like you paid me for expectations that I set.

 

I did work. A lot of it. And made that work available to anyone, including you, at no cost. And here you are complaining about it. I think that reflects more on you than it does on me and I'm happy to just leave it at that.

 

As far as the accusation that I stifled other frameworks goes, I'm happy to let the public record speak for itself. I'm fine with other frameworks if someone wants to make one. I always have been and have said so multiple times.

 

57 minutes ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

It's not FourPlay, but it's no SexLab.

 

And I am glad! As I have written multiple times before, one of the main reasons I set out to make AAF was because I didn't really like the slide-show-like experience SexLab offers. I wanted to make something more interactive for my own use and later decided to make it a public project. It says in the AAF description that it's intended to be more like CE0's Skyrim mod.

 

That said, I respect that SexLab is a well made, successful mod that many people like. I think it's easily more popular than AAF and I have no problem with that. To each their own. More options are better. 

 

57 minutes ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

And it's a bit "selfish" in that if it isn't the only scripted thing in your load order I've noticed it unraveling after significant playtime. I don't think I've ever run it beside Sim Settlements and not regretted that decision.

 

Since most of the AAF code is compartmentalized into Flash rather than Papyrus, it's difficult to see how this "selfish" theory makes much sense. Not to say that AAF is bug free. It's a lot of code and it gives users a lot of flexibility in how its configured/used. So, there is a large "surface" area that users can cover. I wanted specific features for AAF that I knew came with that obstacle. I felt those features were worth it and I respect it if others want a different equation there.

 

Anyway, if you run into bugs, please report them and/or stop by the discord so we can fix or help troubleshoot.

 

[vaultbait]

1 hour ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

I do think, though, that the dear mod author is being a little bit prissy about it and that sours my opinion of the project. I'm sure you'll break this into individual quotes and try and assail my credibility even as I'm ostensibly agreeing with you because that just seems to be the tone here, and that's not exactly a positive user experience.

 

Ooh, let me. I'd hate to disappoint, after all, and I do tend to readily take that bait.

 

1 hour ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

Also, as another personal aside, I still would like to see an alternative framework just because, no offense meant, I get the feeling you unintentionally stifled development of other frameworks and that's a shame because AAF is a little less than stellar, you know. It's not FourPlay, but it's no SexLab. And it's a bit "selfish" in that if it isn't the only scripted thing in your load order I've noticed it unraveling after significant playtime. I don't think I've ever run it beside Sim Settlements and not regretted that decision. I'm sure I could make it work, which, incidentally, is what brought me here in the first place, but eh, honestly, not worth it. Modding is a house of cards and I've always felt like AAF needs to be it's own separate house, if that makes sense, which just isn't a design aesthetic I appreciate as someone who enjoys heavily altering the base game's experience.

 

I'll just say I've not seen attempts on the part of the AAF author to stifle competition, and while I'd be interested in examples they're probably not particularly on topic for this support thread. Let's face it, this is basically the only game in town right now. AAF is providing a working (for reasonable definitions of the word, given the constraints) solution to generalizing animation calls for Fallout 4. It's simply unlikely for competition to emerge while there is an existing solution which is at least "good enough." Given time, these solutions become entrenched foundations, and are hard to remove, due to the community building atop them. That's not the author's fault, unless they're to be blamed for creating something genuinely useful in their own free time and sharing it with us. It's social dynamics at work.

 

I do agree with most of your intellectual property law points, as someone who is not a lawyer but spends rather a lot of her day getting paid to deal with that bullshit. The main risk I see is that because most of this is based on copyright conjecture, and building something which is explicitly designed to interface (directly or indirectly) with other software can be construed as a derivative work, it could be argued by the copyright holders of Fallout 4 that this mod (and mods in general) are derivative of their own work and therefore in violation of their copyright. I don't find it especially likely given their past actions, and it would probably just spell the end of modding for their games if they did, but very large companies continue to fight ludicrously expensive battles over tenuous arguments about whether coding to a given interface is derivative, and there are freshly inked United States supreme court rulings to be considered for precedent (and will the other Berne Convention signatory countries concur, if similar battles are fought in their jurisdictions?). As far as DMCA violations and takedown requests, don't be so naive as to assume all companies reside within the USA. The DMCA is law within the United States, but companies headquartered outside of and not bound by that jurisdiction are unlikely to be fazed by such takedown requests. On the other hand, they have their own laws and regulations which might be brought to bear in a similar fashion, so the argument isn't without merit.

[KatieLlymlaen]

I'm not going to bother taking you point by point. I just need to note that if I don't say it's not legal advice, even if it patently is telling you information about laws and the practice thereof, I then take on a personal ethical responsibility to represent you. You'll see a lot of lawyers online say things to this effect in this exact situation to avoid having a responsibility to take on a client we're just giving tips to.

And I'm not about to open myself up to a malpractice claim by saying this is advice. We use the term legal information to make that difference clearer, though honestly the whole situation is a bit unfairly unintuitive to the customer. 

As for your perception of hostility from even people ostensibly agreeing with you (called it), you're behavior isn't something I've thought highly of. That, yes, is a personal affront to you. I'm not taking you to court, nor representing you, so I'm entitled to say your behavior my view of your work. My day job doesn't strip me of my right to think you're a jerk outside of work. If we're in litigation - which I have to absolutely pray will never happen - you'll get the courtesy I afford anyone in that setting. Here, I don't owe you anything, just as you don't owe me anything. 

And in absolute honestly, I have used your product and just don't like it. That doesn't mean it's not the culmination of effort that should be respected. That doesn't mean that you should personally be offended by me disliking your product. You're the only game in town and that's not something I like, but that's nothing about you as a person. I agree SL wasn't optimal, but at least it was functional, which is something that has been hit and miss with AAF in my playthroughs. But to construe me disliking your work as me intending to offend you is silly. 

It's not your fault that AAF is prohibitive of other frameworks, frameworks I might like better personally, but that's the reality of it. The same way Nexus is prohibitive of other hosting platforms. They dictate terms, and then things like this become community disasters because no widely agreed upon alternative ever coalesced. You're the Nexus of Fallout animation frameworks. 

What I do say to offend is that I think your behavior in this conversation has been obnoxious. Please do take that personally. I respect your work, not your behavior.

Edited August 5, 2021 by KatieLlymlaen

[KatieLlymlaen]

21 minutes ago, vaultbait said:

I do agree with most of your intellectual property law points, as someone who is not a lawyer but spends rather a lot of her day getting paid to deal with that bullshit. The main risk I see is that because most of this is based on copyright conjecture, and building something which is explicitly designed to interface (directly or indirectly) with other software can be construed as a derivative work, it could be argued by the copyright holders of Fallout 4 that this mod (and mods in general) are derivative of their own work and therefore in violation of their copyright. I don't find it especially likely given their past actions, and it would probably just spell the end of modding for their games if they did, but very large companies continue to fight ludicrously expensive battles over tenuous arguments about whether coding to a given interface is derivative, and there are freshly inked United States supreme court rulings to be considered for precedent (and will the other Berne Convention signatory countries concur, if similar battles are fought in their jurisdictions?). As far as DMCA violations and takedown requests, don't be so naive as to assume all companies reside within the USA. The DMCA is law within the United States, but companies headquartered outside of and not bound by that jurisdiction are unlikely to be fazed by such takedown requests. On the other hand, they have their own laws and regulations which might be brought to bear in a similar fashion, so the argument isn't without merit.

 

The engine AAF is built on is clearly not able to be part of AAF's intellectual property claim, but to argue that AAF's individual code is subject to the copyright on Fallout 4 because it was developed for Fallout 4 wouldn't get very far in court. Code is tricky by the often 'great artists steal' issues inherent in coding (I don't represent many tech firms, so this might be less true today than when I learned a bit of coding) but by and large AAF is most likely using original code developed by the legal construct I called AAF (the mod author and any collaborators of theirs). 

 

Quick edit to clarify: if AAF uses in part or in full the base code of Fallout 4 then the waters are choppy. If it uses it's own code designed to interface with the code of Fallout 4, it's likely protected. Computer programs are usually written to run on operating systems, that doesn't mean the operating system owns the program. The same applies down the line. Just because code needs to interface with other code doesn't give the thing it's interfacing with legal control.  Situations where companies take down mods are usually related to TOS violations, and their success record on so doing is spotty at best. 

As for the DMCA and takedown thing, international law is a headache and a half on the best days. In large part, it depends on how willing the government at the other end is to either bend over for or flip off the US, which like a lot of international law is three parts politics to every one part law.

Edited August 5, 2021 by KatieLlymlaen

[tuxagent7]

12 minutes ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

which is something that has been hit and miss with AFF in my playthroughs

 

There is a fantastic guide here in Loverslab and make AFF runs smoothly as butter

 

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by tuxagent7

[vaultbait]

11 minutes ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

What I do say to offend is that I think your behavior in this conversation has been obnoxious. Please do take that personally.

 

I also recommend looking in a mirror from time to time.

[vaultbait]

4 minutes ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

The engine AAF is built on is clearly not able to be part of AAF's intellectual property claim, but to argue that AAF's individual code is subject to the copyright on Fallout 4 because it was developed for Fallout 4 wouldn't get very far in court.

 

What would make it not get very far in court is the fact that the author isn't profiting off this work, and likely doesn't have enough assets to be worth going after even if they were. I also have no idea what country they reside in, but a court ruling in a country where they don't reside, hold no assets, and don't plan to visit would be fairly pointless unless the intent was to be able to write it off as a loss for tax purposes.

 

The strength of the copyright claims for AAF, on the other hand, is challenging because of its reliance on F4SE which in turn diddles some FO4 engine internals. At least in the open source scene, it's commonly assumed that linking against library headers at compilation causes your work to be derivative of that library's copyright.

[KatieLlymlaen]

Open source software is, again, way outside my area of expertise so you might be correct there. I'd have to look under the hood of AAF to see how it functions in relationship to F4SE and F4 itself. I'm speculating about the situation in a total vacuum, so am giving AAF the full benefit of the doubt to put them in the strongest possible legal position for their argument. 

[dagobaking]

22 minutes ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

And in absolute honestly, I have used your product and just don't like it. That doesn't mean it's not the culmination of effort that should be respected. That doesn't mean that you should personally be offended by me disliking your product.

 

I'm not offended at all really. But, why can't you just be honest? Offense was your intent. Obviously.

 

22 minutes ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

You're the only game in town and that's not something I like, but that's nothing about you as a person.

 

Ok. Well, in your first post it was about me when you claimed that I have deliberately stifled alternative frameworks. Apology?

 

22 minutes ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

What I do say to offend is that I think your behavior in this conversation has been obnoxious. Please do take that personally. I respect your work, not your behavior.

 

Let me get this straight. You show up to mock my credibility, call me names and tell me unsolicited that you don't like my free work. And now you have a need to let me know that you didn't like my reaction because it's too obnoxious?

 

lol

 

I feel like my reaction maybe wasn't obnoxious enough!

 

2 minutes ago, vaultbait said:

The strength of the copyright claims for AAF, on the other hand, is challenging because of its reliance on F4SE which in turn diddles some FO4 engine internals. At least in the open source scene, it's commonly assumed that linking against library headers at compilation causes your work to be derivative of that library's copyright.

 

A) Thank you for the points in my defense!

 

B) Bethesda acknowledges in their own terms that mods include IP that belongs to the mod authors. They just clarify that the part they built still belongs to them and can't be used in x, y, z manner.

 

C) F4SE has a specific API made for other mods to use. AAF doesn't replicate any of that through its own systems. So, it's not a derivative. If it was, then, for instance, content on a web site that uses Wordpress would then be rendered a derivative of Wordpress.

[KatieLlymlaen]

I didn't mean to offend you personally by saying I've disliked my AAF experiences, and for speaking less than clearly to that point I apologize.

 

Also, I found your behavior obnoxious before I posted. That's WHY I posted to begin with. I was just here to bitch about AAF falling apart on me, then read your conversations on this topic and felt a need to bat at the tassel like a cat because the tone you've taken annoyed me. I'm here playing at your level.

 

Honestly, this entire thread has killed my desire to play Fallout 4 at all at this point, so kudos there my guy.

[dagobaking]

15 minutes ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

I didn't mean to offend you personally by saying I've disliked my AAF experiences, and for speaking less than clearly to that point I apologize.

 

Baby steps! And now about the time you falsely accused me of deliberately stifling other projects?

 

15 minutes ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

Also, I found your behavior obnoxious before I posted. That's WHY I posted to begin with. I was just here to bitch about AAF falling apart on me, then read your conversations on this topic and felt a need to bat at the tassel like a cat because the tone you've taken annoyed me. I'm here playing at your level.

 

Well. Call me crazy. But, I feel that you fell short of my level. In fact, your real motivation appears to have been offense that anyone other than a professional lawyer can have the audacity to make a correct point about the law. A particular brand of arrogance that I've also seen in some lawyers I've worked with.

 

15 minutes ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

Honestly, this entire thread has killed my desire to play Fallout 4 at all at this point, so kudos there my guy.

 

How much more entitled are you going to make yourself look?

 

lol

 

It's not my job to make you want to play the game. And when you come at me with clear insults I'm going to defend myself whether that affects your interest in FO4 or not.

Edited August 5, 2021 by dagobaking

[CGi]

What in the holy name of F is even going on here?

i see people talking out of their arse.

People not liking someones personality as if they want to play with them, not the mod they made.
Sentences formulated in such a passive-aggressive way that the hairs on my back are standing up so hard i look like a hedgehog.

So just we don't forget:
Mods are born out of the need to have something that isn't available at the time their creation was started.
This means every mod is biased towards the creators vision for this mod.
Making a mod public does not entitle users to anything, so if constructive criticism is given, then it may end up in the mod but don't has to.
Not giving any constructive criticism by saying nothing will not result in anything.
Just complaining won't result in anything either.

Most complaints are "This is a community" and it's those people who yield this argument who act against the idea of such a community.
Apply common sense, think before you talk/post. Treat others the way you want to be treated.
it can't be that hard to not be obnoxious or worse.

Edited August 5, 2021 by CGi

[KatieLlymlaen]

17 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

 

Baby steps! And now about the time you falsely accused me of deliberately stifling other projects?

 

I said "unintentionally," which is literally the opposite of deliberately, but you do you.

 

I've also said you owe me nothing. So I'm not sure where you get the idea that I think you do? I'm disenchanted with Fallout 4 now because of the broader community - this entire discussion, not just you. 

Edited August 6, 2021 by KatieLlymlaen

[tuxagent7]

19 minutes ago, CGi said:

Mods are born out of the need to have something that isn't available at the time their creation was started

 

Amen brother, so let's be grateful that someone did something about it and if something ain't our cup of tea then too bad for you.

 

Not saying to not say anything like good suggestion or valid points

 

I don't get it, it's free....so take it or leave it, sorry if i seem harsh but man it is heavy sometimes reading these forums.

Edited August 6, 2021 by tuxagent7

[dagobaking]

14 minutes ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

I said "unintentionally," which is literally the opposite of deliberately, but you do you.

 

You're right. I misread that line as "intentionally". I apologize for the mistake.

 

14 minutes ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

I've also said you owe me nothing. So I'm not sure where you get the idea that I think you do?

 

I don't know. Maybe it's when you wrote: "Honestly, this entire thread has killed my desire to play Fallout 4 at all at this point, so kudos there my guy."

 

14 minutes ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

I'm disenchanted with Fallout 4 now because of the broader community - this entire discussion, not just you. 

 

Try to fit this into your imagination: "How enchanting is it to spend hours of your life working on a project and share the outcome with others and then have some of them act like you did something wrong to them for it?"

Edited August 6, 2021 by dagobaking

[KatieLlymlaen]

9 minutes ago, dagobaking said:

Try to fit this into your imagination: "How enchanting is it to spend hours of your life working on a project and share the outcome with others and then have some of them act like you did something wrong to them for it?"

 

That's literally every creative endeavor in the modern era. Every single one. And it fucking sucks.

 

Look, I came in here agreeing with you. Without digging in more than I'm willing to without taking on responsibility as counsel, your IP argument matches the current body of caselaw. There's some real-world practical issues, but on paper you're right and I came in to stick up for you. I do think your conduct is less than stellar and am gonna call you out on it, but your argument is sound. I'm not even content with the product - I'm not expecting you to change it, or to give a flying fuck about it being something I'm discontented with. 

Predictably, you snapped at me and made me an enemy. So predictably, in fact, I mentioned it in the initial post where I came in to this discussion. Because that's the pattern I'm seeing that made me grumpy enough to mention your behavior at all. 

People suck. Creative art isn't respected. Nothing is respected. It's the fucking internet. And you deserve to have your effort acknowledged, and you owe others nothing. The choice to be confrontational about that lack of obligation has consequences for how people perceive you, but that's a choice you get to make. 

But in return, I don't owe you anything. We have no obligation to one another.

[KatieLlymlaen]

That lack of obligation goes both ways.

 

He's not obligated to even acknowledge people exist, let alone address their issues. But I have no obligation to like a product I don't, nor to ignore personal differences and distaste because of his work.

[CGi]

Oh boi...

And now we're down to telling people that we don't like what they do instead of just moving on?
Feedback should consist of constructive criticism and/or words of encouragment.
Telling someone you don't like their work instead of moving on because you don't like their work is redundant and usually a cry for attention.

So to nail it down:
You like the idea of a mod but it lacks something you would like to be in it: Give constructive criticism in a polite manner.
You don't like a mod: Move on and focus on the ones you like.
Don't like an author: You're not here for the author but their work so focus on that. Neither of us is here to make friends. That's just a possible bonus along the way.

This is literally like people joining someones stream to tell them they don't like the stream. Then why watch it this long in the first place instead of choosing a different stream?

Edited August 6, 2021 by CGi

[dagobaking]

1 hour ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

That's literally every creative endeavor in the modern era. Every single one. And it fucking sucks.

 

Not really. Most software that people use is part of a paid transaction. Not that there is anything wrong with that. But, some people don't seem to recognize that using a free mod is not the same kind of relationship as paying a company for something. When I hear things like "this isn't a good user experience", "thanks a lot for ruining my FO4 experience", etc. I get the impression that this confusion is taking place.

 

1 hour ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

Look, I came in here agreeing with you.

 

I can't let this framing go. It's misleading. You may have agreed with me on a point within a large post. But, you were also directly insulting in that same post.

 

To suggest that you were just innocently backing me up and gave me no justification for reacting negatively is intellectually dishonest.

 

1 hour ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

I do think your conduct is less than stellar and am gonna call you out on it, but your argument is sound.

 

What conduct? Being rude back to you after you insulted me? Being rude back to the other poster who also started out rude?

 

Besides, if you think I owe you nothing, surely you can see that a specific kind of "conduct" is included in that. If you don't like my conduct, what are you trying to achieve by talking about it to me in a rude manner?

 

1 hour ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

Predictably, you snapped at me and made me an enemy.

 

If you want to be an enemy that is on you. I actually invited you to get troubleshooting help despite your rude conduct.

 

1 hour ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

So predictably, in fact, I mentioned it in the initial post where I came in to this discussion. Because that's the pattern I'm seeing that made me grumpy enough to mention your behavior at all. 

 

Again, what did I do that made you grumpy? The guy was being rude to me first. Then he insisted that I was wrong about something you agree that I was right about. What about me and my role as a mod author makes it so that I have to respond to rudeness in a polite way or that I have to let people be wrong about legal ideas?

 

1 hour ago, KatieLlymlaen said:

The choice to be confrontational about that lack of obligation has consequences for how people perceive you, but that's a choice you get to make. 

But in return, I don't owe you anything. We have no obligation to one another.

 

Right. So if you are living by this, what would make you grumpy about me defending myself against rude (and incorrect) behavior?

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by dagobaking

[CGi]

41 minutes ago, maddadicusrex said:

Before you know it, AAF mostly works and can be reasonbly stable if you do not jump to download every new shiny thing of a mod that might overwhelm its code. Do I wish Dago not tinker with it, sometimes? Maybe? But, bottom line, it is his mod and he can do whatever damn thing he wants to it. It is not mine or yours!

it's actually hard to overwhelm AAF as it runs on a more stable "threading system" than SexLab.
But it's way of implementing animations differs completely from TES4, FO3 and FONV and ofc Skyrim which requires FNiS.
Following the only existing official guide, the appropriately named "Fucking Guide", one can have a fuckfest of a game in no time.
Problems following it? Join AAF's Discord to get live support.

One can only do so much to help people and i think the AAF approach works in its favour.

[Saya Scarlett]

This whole discussion shows that

1º The author, Dagoba_King, won't just let himself be stepped over, like anyone else wouldn't.

2º The author of course, knows what the fuck he's talking about.

3º Like one of the latest comments said: It's his mod and he can do whatever the fuck he wants with it.

 

If people don't like it or are fucking incapable to read how to install something, that is their problem.

Good luck putting together a fucking Ikea table or something.

Which is the main issue, 100%, with most people trying to use AAF.

Digital age made most people in-fucking-capable of proper reading comprehension and it's why so many people can't get AAF to work properly at first.

I usually say otherwise but even if they're new to modding, with a little research and proper reading, they'd be fucking deathclaws in no time.

 

And it honestly fucking boggles my mind how people can claim that SexLab is 'easier'.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Saya Scarlett

[DoctaSax]

I thought this was the general support topic for the AAF mod.

Let's keep it about that.