Devious Followers (8 June 2019)

[Lupine00]

A few thoughts on things you can do to make DF slavery easier, some a bit questionable, others quite legitimate...

 

• You can avoid theft mechanics by giving things to the follower.
  • This is extremely useful to make slavery escape easy, weaken SL Adventures theft, and weaken DCL defeat outcomes.
  • Any item you don't want to lose you can give to the follower.
  • You can even give money to the follower, if you don't use SLS thieving follower options.
  • As soon as I'm enslaved, I give all my gear to the follower and equip whatever junk gets looted.
  • This means that if the follower goes apeshit and destroys my worn gear, it costs me nothing.
  • It also means that nothing good can be stolen during the inevitable numerous rapes that will occur.
• You can avoid gold control mechanics in a few ways.
  • Carry lots of wine, you can sell it to innkeepers to get room rental money, instead of soliciting (which is not always practical anyway).
  • Give money to the follower to build up a massive stash.
  • Stick money in containers to build up a large amount.
  • Cache money in your player home containers to safely build up a massive stash to pay off deals, get out of slavery etc.
    • You can stash this in advance (for example, before you get a follower) and use it as an emergency fund, allowing you to buy out of slavery immediately, pay off any deal you don't like, etc.
• The hardcore mittens aren't a problem as long as you do all your fighting in dungeons. You can't get any worthwhile loot elsewhere so rush to a dungeon as quick as you can.
  • Always ask the follower to remove the mittens and boots for you, rather than doing it yourself. It's easier, costs nothing, and avoids the chance the follower will decide you should have been wearing them anyway.
• Why bother even removing the town collar?
  • You can get in trouble if you forget to put it back, there's no real disadvantage to wearing it, simply don't bother to ever put your weapon away in a dungeon. Crawling through full-on verdant grass is huge fun, and it feels like you're moving fast. There are no rape mods or other tools that allow you to add in extra threats for crawling ... it's largely a cosmetic immersion thing.
• The absolute worst thing that can happen if you use Skooma Whore is you end up gagged so you can't consume skooma. Avoid this by putting on your own ring gag before some DCL-driven NPC does it for you.
  • DF followers always add a ring gag, so it's better for them to do it than DCL.
• Player homes are generally a giant safety net around anything that DF (or DCL) can throw at you.
  • That SS doesn't (at least optionally) re-possess all your player homes really takes the risk out of it.
  • That DF followers don't loot everything that's not nailed down out of player homes is ... certainly an opportunity for new features.

 

The question is here, what is "legitimate" and what isn't? I feel like giving items to the follower is not quite cheating, but giving money obviously is.

 

 

While you can use SLS to stop yourself from storing cash on the follower, not everyone wants SLS.

 

It would shut off a lot of "easy-mode" options if followers took any cash you gave them, and any items you give them as a slave or with low willpower should be moved to a hidden container on a periodic update, if the follower doesn't equip them.

 

The obvious next step is that the follower can vend the items in the container.

 

Pretty much the harshest thing that can happen to you in DF, in any mode or state, is to get a serious speech debuff or trading value debuff that sticks around long-term. For example, the SL Parasites living armor ... that thing drags all your sell prices down to almost nothing. You run into huge debt in DF because of it, no matter what.

 

So, when it comes to "difficulty" in DF, things that impact sell price, or vendor access, are really the nasty ones.

[Lupine00]

7 hours ago, CGi said:

1st: it does mean something. Why would i waste my time writing something i don't mean or that has no meaning?

If it did have any meaning, you would have been able to explain it. Instead you made an empty assertion, followed up by a flurry or distracting whataboutism where you decide what could or could not be done, and make assertions about coding effort to implement feature X, that are simply not justified, or even remotely necessary.

 

Perhaps the reason you raise that issue is because you believe that mod developers are such fragile beings that they need to be fed a steady diet of rainbows and unicorn farts, and lauded by adoring fans, lest they shrivel like mushrooms in the sun, and never release another update.

 

I would suggest that the mod developers that keep on making mods do it because they enjoy it, and forum blather is mostly so much background noise.

 

Sometimes they might find a hidden gem of inspiration there, more often a useful bug report, but mostly just noise. If you've seen the internet, you can probably tune that last part out  

 

7 hours ago, CGi said:

2nd: Let me put it straight - Some of your complaints are valid and some are nitpicking but most of your suggestions would mean a major rewrite of the mod, resulting in a way more complex mod and Lozeak already said that he doesn't want DF to become overly complicated.

Thanks for that info CGi. Thanks for policing what is appropriate to discuss in the forum. Or perhaps I'm uncharitable, and you are selflessly attempting to save me a lot of time and bother writing forum posts that can (apparently?) achieve nothing.

 

But I don't agree they can achieve nothing, and I don't need that "help". In fact, just because I suggest an idea doesn't mean I don't believe Lozeak couldn't have had the same idea already and rejected it. Teasing out his reasons for rejecting something may prove illuminating, as has been the case in the past.

 

It is about examining these things. The entire design, how it works, what is good, what is bad. Those things may never impact DF, which is for all intents done, but they may inform its successor, or some future mod for some future game. Why not?

 

In any case, Lozeak will make his own judgements on what is worth doing, or whether an idea is good, or too much trouble, or fits his vision. But just telling people they're wrong, and its perfect, and it can't be improved, isn't helping really, is it?

 

 

As for nitpicking...

The entire reason I'm writing this is because a few posts back, you - you CGi - decided to nitpick and uses a rhetorical device to attempt to invalidate an entire post based on your personal opinion of one tiny part of it. You essentially implied that the fragile enslavement payoff behaviour was good gameplay, and intended by design, because enslavement is "lose/lose"  -  and I'm still trying to guess what you meant by that phrase, if anything beyond another rhetorical trick where you copy the words of an authority out of context to justify something they didn't intend.

 

You appeared to imply (and it wasn't argued, it was simply asserted) that my entire post on simplification of the code base into a totally deal-based system was based on a flawed premise, if that little bit of fragile enslavement behaviour was not bad, but in fact good.

 

Now, it looks like you're returning to that argument tangentially, by suggesting that any changes to DF are too much work.

 

 

Well... It's sure that some changes are too much work. Of course they are. We all know that... But I believe that Lozeak is capable of deciding which ones, and will do so no matter what the forum has to say about it.

 

 

But... If we don't dream, we won't make any progress. If we don't examine new mechanics, we won't find the flaws in them.

 

So, if you want to help, why not come at it from that perspective, instead of trying to shut down everything I say? It's a lot easier to make a good mod by putting work into the design up-front than it is by making a load of stuff then finding problems with it. It's a lot easier to write any code with a solid design than with a vague dream and a lot of good intentions. Just because mod most makers often take the latter path doesn't make it effective; though it's not "wrong", they are, after all, mostly amateur hobbyists and they can spend their time however they think is most fun.

 

But game-design is a fun game we can all play and contribute to. You don't have to make a mod to do it. Unless... somebody comes and starts shooting everything down with "it's perfect, can't be fixed, doesn't even matter, too hard anyway."

 

 

I can remember that once upon a time there were blue-sky discussions of a system of follower based slavery that wasn't SD's over-ambitious attempt to make any and every NPC into a slavemaster regardless of suitability. Some of them might even have been my examination of what was wrong with Leon and Leah. Since then, we got DCL Sasha, and DF.

 

Maybe the discussions on the DCL forum had nothing to do with DF getting made, or the impact was trivial. Maybe how Kimy addressed Sasha had nothing to do with anything anyone ever said on the forum. Or maybe not. 

 

Maybe I contributed nothing to that. Doesn't matter. Don't care.

 

 

In any case, CGi's opinion about what can be implemented has no relevance to my reporting of problems, or my suggesting of possible ways to address them, and I will continue to do so unless Lozeak wants me to stop it.

 

However, if Mr. CGi wants to put forward suggestions of his own, or argue about the pros and cons of design decisions without simply raising the "too hard" blocker, or the "it's already perfect" absurdity, then I'm happy to engage with that.

 

[Reesewow]

7 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

While you can use SLS to stop yourself from storing cash on the follower, not everyone wants SLS.

 

It would shut off a lot of "easy-mode" options if followers took any cash you gave them, and any items you give them as a slave or with low willpower should be moved to a hidden container on a periodic update, if the follower doesn't equip them.

 

The obvious next step is that the follower can vend the items in the container.

The biggest issue I see with trying to make item stashing dangerous is that commonly used mods offer a multitude of ways to store gold safely at any time, so users would have to make a conscious decision to use the "bad" option of putting items or gold into a follower's vanilla inventory and avoid using the "cheaty" options such as personal storage spells (Apocalypse)/Follower framework storage inventories (AFT/EFF)/Saddlebags/Custom follower inventories (most of the fancy ones have one).  At that point, I think it may be better for such a user to simply mentally categorize follower inventories under the "cheaty" category themselves and simply not do it for the added challenge.  A user that was going to use external inventories anyway might get caught with follower confiscation once, then will probably just use a different option to bypass the system.

 

I *constantly* use my Deep Storage spell for holding items I want easy access to without them cluttering my inventory, such as really heavy weapons destined for display in Legacy of the Dragonborn or crafting/enchanting gear & potions - I simply never put gold in that inventory since that would be cheating the mod in my mind. 

 

One alternative way to *maybe* control external gold storage would be to attempt to detect and intercept gold leaving a player's inventory via window, like DCUL does with keys with "shaky hands" active.  IMO that sounds like a lot of scripting overhead and messing with a vanilla game item that would possibly cause lots of unexpected compatibility issues with other mods, so likely not a viable option. 

 

I do really like the idea of a "Devious Follower" hidden container however - I could see some fun deals/games be based off functionality like that.  For example - perhaps your follower steals all of your consumable items and then requires you to play a game or have sex with them for access to a random stack of items they stole.  You could play the game hoping to get your Ultimate healing potions back, or just end up with a stack of petty soul gems instead.  Could also interact with needs mods - if your follower takes your skooma, you may be desperately trying to get it back for your fix.

7 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Pretty much the harshest thing that can happen to you in DF, in any mode or state, is to get a serious speech debuff or trading value debuff that sticks around long-term. For example, the SL Parasites living armor ... that thing drags all your sell prices down to almost nothing. You run into huge debt in DF because of it, no matter what.

 

So, when it comes to "difficulty" in DF, things that impact sell price, or vendor access, are really the nasty ones.

Yep - the tentacle armor in DCUL does something similar and is a really harsh outcome unless you are killing enemies that naturally carry a lot of loose gold.  Pretty interesting gameplay interactions and it is really cool that this mod makes speechcraft and vendors an important gameplay element.  For the first time in *any* playthrough I actually ended up spending perk points in Speechcraft to get the vendor-based perks solely due to Devious Followers - the functionality to sell anything to any vendor and bump up my vendor's gold amounts has proved to be a great investment (and was 100% useless for me before using DF). 

 

I've also found the "Black Market" ability from Dragonborn to be a extremely beneficial spell worthy of going out of your way to get - that instant infusion of 2000 gold assuming you have the items to sell can make the difference between getting stuck in deal hell or not.

[Lupine00]

22 minutes ago, Reesewow said:

The biggest issue I see with trying to make item stashing dangerous is that commonly used mods offer a multitude of ways to store gold safely at any time, so users would have to make a conscious decision to use the "bad" option of putting items or gold into a follower's vanilla inventory and avoid using the "cheaty" options such as personal storage spells (Apocalypse)/Follower framework storage inventories (AFT/EFF)/Saddlebags/Custom follower inventories (most of the fancy ones have one).  At that point, I think it may be better for such a user to simply mentally categorize follower inventories under the "cheaty" category themselves and simply not do it for the added challenge.  A user that was going to use external inventories anyway might get caught with follower confiscation once, then will probably just use a different option to bypass the system.

Dangerous might be the wrong word here, but I guess that there are a lot of ways to stash stuff, especially with mods that are designed for it. Using them with DF is a bit "easy mode" but it's something the player can decide.

 

Your thoughts on Speechcraft are similar to mine. Vanilla skyrim I don't even bother looting non-enchanted stuff. Apart from Dwarven metal to raise smithing, there's no great need, and I'd only loot enchanted items to level enchanting (or because they might, very rarely, be useful). Pretty much all my gear in (somewhat) vanilla Skyrim used to come out of a DAMN box. Or without DCL, I'd be enchanting my own pretty in the game.

 

Lately though, my character is wearing drops from the Wenches mods. There's some good stuff for "whore armor" in there too if you're looking for alternatives.

 

The midas touch from Player Exhibitionist is an interesting option. Removes pretty much all armor drops and changes them to gold.

[Reesewow]

2 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

Your thoughts on Speechcraft are similar to mine. Vanilla skyrim I don't even bother looting non-enchanted stuff. Apart from Dwarven metal to raise smithing, there's no great need, and I'd only loot enchanted items to level enchanting (or because they might, very rarely, be useful). Pretty much all my gear in (somewhat) vanilla Skyrim used to come out of a DAMN box. Or without DCL, I'd be enchanting my own pretty in the game.

I still don't loot anything that weights more than 1 unless it is worth 800+ gold, but that is a gameplay preference of mine and DF's values are set accordingly.  No need to change my preferred playstyle drastically to min-max gold gains when the gold requirement is a self-imposed value (like most mods with difficulty sliders).

2 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

Lately though, my character is wearing drops from the Wenches mods. There's some good stuff for "whore armor" in there too if you're looking for alternatives.

I use that armor as *regular* armor for me and my followers, since I have all the armor mods used by the wenches mods installed stand-alone.  The wench mods are definitely a great addition to a DF playthrough both for challenge and the gold value of the items they drop, altho I ended up doing a *lot* of TES5Edit culling of a few of those mods to make them less *explody* and likely to lag out my game or cause scripting stack dumps due to on-hit effects.  My current custom whore armor is a chainmail chestpiece from Zenna, the Tera rogue set, and the Light Mage outfit (which is basically a tea towel pretending to be armor).

[Lupine00]

20 hours ago, Reesewow said:

the gold value of the items they drop

Yes. Would be super convenient if somebody had gone through and devalued them all a lot, as they are generally gold per weight, ratios well in excess of most vanilla gear.

 

Think I'll give Scarcity a try in my next game ... along with Increased Bounty and Guild Rewards

[Corsayr]

4 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Yes. Would be super convenient if somebody had gone through and devalued them all a lot, as they are generally gold per weight, ratios well in excess of most vanilla gear.

 

Think I'll give Scarcity a try in my next game ... along with Increased Bounty and Guild Rewards

Changing the value is easy enough in CK or TES5Edit I usually do that myself for custom mods that have out of scale values (which are many of them). 

 

Have you tried Player Exhibitionist? It has a mini version of the scarcity bargaining sliders, and it also has a function called Midas touch which removes an MCM controllable % of body armor / other armors / and weapons (all separately controllable settings in MCM) from dead bodies when you go to loot them. 

[genericlogin]

I found that when my follower takes some of my equipment to sell, he's willing to take quest items--specifically, the Rueful Axe while I was in the middle of "A Daedra's Best Friend." This broke the quest.

[Lupine00]

20 hours ago, Corsayr said:

Changing the value is easy enough in CK or TES5Edit I usually do that myself for custom mods that have out of scale values (which are many of them). 

 

Have you tried Player Exhibitionist? It has a mini version of the scarcity bargaining sliders, and it also has a function called Midas touch which removes an MCM controllable % of body armor / other armors / and weapons (all separately controllable settings in MCM) from dead bodies when you go to loot them. 

Easy ... but tedious ... there are several dozen, and you have to decide what to set them too, which perhaps ends up taking longer than doing it.

 

I think my post Reesewow replied to mentioned PE's Midas Touch.

 

I may recall incorrectly, but one small drawback with PE is that it spews masses of rubbish into your log, hinting at some problems with it - though it didn't seem to cause any specific problems I could point at. That's why I consider it's feature an interesting example of an approach, but maybe not a solution I would feel confident trying to use for a long playthrough.

 

When it comes to forced nakedness, I liked the laws in SL Adventures, but like a lot of SL Adventures features, it feels a bit awkward and often behaves a bit randomly. I usually find I give up and return to DCL after toying with it for a bit. For example, with the rape chases, I either never see the rapist at all (and escape) or the rapist triggers right on top of me and there's no possibility of a chase. It's a nice idea, but it needs a bit more polish to work properly.

 

DF got the nakedness thing right in a way that SLAV and PE didn't quite manage. The piercing deal is perfect for that.  Overall, PE can't quite decide if it's Naked Dungeons or not.

[Corsayr]

3 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Easy ... but tedious ... there are several dozen, and you have to decide what to set them too, which perhaps ends up taking longer than doing it.

You are never (as a modder) going to have settings that please everyone, so while it may be tedious it really is on the player to do this sort of thing. 

 

3 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I may recall incorrectly, but one small drawback with PE is that it spews masses of rubbish into your log, hinting at some problems with it - though it didn't seem to cause any specific problems I could point at. That's why I consider it's feature an interesting example of an approach, but maybe not a solution I would feel confident trying to use for a long playthrough.

I have been using PE for a while in a stress build (lots of very heavy mods) and it has performed without incident. 

[Lupine00]

13 hours ago, Corsayr said:

You are never (as a modder) going to have settings that please everyone, so while it may be tedious it really is on the player to do this sort of thing. 

I asked on the off chance that it had already been done. Or maybe even somebody had been considering it.

So often, these things have been. Or, in the hope that there's a different set of Tera armors (there are so many) that has lower values already?

 

But... if there is no such version, I may make my own ... sometime after editing Skyrim More Immersive Zones to be survivable for a new character 

[Dust+]

@Lozeak Hi. Found a little incompatibility. While you using deals, your follower gives you corset, boots and gloves. Corset and boots are transparent, but gloves is not. Just black. ?

[Reesewow]

6 hours ago, Dust+ said:

Found a little incompatibility. While you using deals, your follower gives you corset, boots and gloves. Corset and boots are transparent, but gloves is not. Just black. ?

This is because a transparent version of the restrictive gloves hasn't been added to DDx yet (apparently it was causing issues) so the follower still gives you black gloves to match the style of the boots.  If you want transparent gloves you can use the transparent catsuit gloves instead, or use any combination of corset/gloves/boots/harness in any colour or style from DD.  Just use additem menu when you take a deal to pick your style on the spot, and dump the devices your follower gives you in an inventory somewhere, they won't care.

[zupra]

My save file just suddenly bloated from 8MB up to 250MB. Hard to track down what caused it but could it be this mod? I was in solitude went to bits and pieces and suddenly about 30 sec load screen.

 

edit: ok i opened the save file with savetool and yeah there's a warning that active script count is quite high. it's 30k and it's pretty much just xpmseweaponstylescaleeffect script only.

[mai_hasegawa]

7 hours ago, zupra said:

edit: ok i opened the save file with savetool and yeah there's a warning that active script count is quite high. it's 30k and it's pretty much just xpmseweaponstylescaleeffect script only.

I disabled XPMSEesp completely, because I don't care for weapon styles enough to risk script lag.

That being said, not sure your huge savefile is because of XPMS, but I have no better ideas to offer.

[zupra]

22 hours ago, mai_hasegawa said:

I disabled XPMSEesp completely, because I don't care for weapon styles enough to risk script lag.

That being said, not sure your huge savefile is because of XPMS, but I have no better ideas to offer.

ok thanks anyways.

[zupra]

When you have deals to wear chastity belt and plug all the sex scenes that gets triggered are something like a foot job, except the one where master itself wants to have some fun. Is there a way to make it so that the belt gets removed?

[Reesewow]

3 hours ago, zupra said:

When you have deals to wear chastity belt and plug all the sex scenes that gets triggered are something like a foot job, except the one where master itself wants to have some fun. Is there a way to make it so that the belt gets removed?

That's more of a general DD question since this mod doesn't handle what other mods are doing for sex scenes.  I think this is probably more of an issue with the ownership version of the chastity belt deal - if you go for "denial" instead, you get an open-back chastity belt that allows for anal animations by default.  To be fair tho, the whole point of the "ownership" deal is that the follower gets exclusive use of your character's fun bits, so other NPCs getting to use you kinda defeats the purpose of the deal.

 

Two options I can think of for chastity belts in general:

 

1. Try to use mods that are built to detect chastity belts and remove them before sex scenes.  For instance DCUL's sex events can detect and temporarily remove generic chasity belts depending on your MCM menu settings.  Note that I'm not 100% sure if this will work with DF's belts (I don't know if they are marked as quest items/block generic or not).

 

2. Turn off Devious Devices sex animation filter.  The belts will not be removed, but you will have more variety in animations.  Up to you if you want more animation options enough to ignore the fact your character is wearing a chastity belt that should make such acts impossible (or at least quite uncomfortable).

[zupra]

14 hours ago, Reesewow said:

That's more of a general DD question since this mod doesn't handle what other mods are doing for sex scenes.  I think this is probably more of an issue with the ownership version of the chastity belt deal - if you go for "denial" instead, you get an open-back chastity belt that allows for anal animations by default.  To be fair tho, the whole point of the "ownership" deal is that the follower gets exclusive use of your character's fun bits, so other NPCs getting to use you kinda defeats the purpose of the deal.

 

Two options I can think of for chastity belts in general:

 

1. Try to use mods that are built to detect chastity belts and remove them before sex scenes.  For instance DCUL's sex events can detect and temporarily remove generic chasity belts depending on your MCM menu settings.  Note that I'm not 100% sure if this will work with DF's belts (I don't know if they are marked as quest items/block generic or not).

 

2. Turn off Devious Devices sex animation filter.  The belts will not be removed, but you will have more variety in animations.  Up to you if you want more animation options enough to ignore the fact your character is wearing a chastity belt that should make such acts impossible (or at least quite uncomfortable).

What i meant is that the follower is whoring out my pc for 50g and then she ends up giving just a footjob. I think the anal animations did work sometimes but not always. It was kinda immersion breaking. There's dialogues and everything between the follower and NPC. "i'm gonna fuck her hard" and then footjob heh. Imo the belt should be removed by the follower i mean who would pay 50g for that ?

 

I quess i could install the DCUL.

[CGi]

6 minutes ago, zupra said:

What i meant is that the follower is whoring out my pc for 50g and then she ends up giving just a footjob. I think the anal animations did work sometimes but not always. It was kinda immersion breaking. There's dialogues and everything between the follower and NPC. "i'm gonna fuck her hard" and then footjob heh. Imo the belt should be removed by the follower i mean who would pay 50g for that ?

 

I quess i could install the DCUL.

For some content it's best to not accept the gold deal.
With the option to say "no" to this deal gone in the lastest version, it's best to save before taking a new deal to avoid the belt.

[Lupine00]

Low willpower characters have no ability to say "No" to any deals.

 

So... Doing save/load tricks to ensure you get a deal you like is clearly "self-cheating" intended to modify how DF functions; and the normal function is to punish you with extra debt if you refuse a deal, assuming you are able to refuse. Low willpower types just accept whatever they're offered.

 

 

But... This issue with useless animations is somewhat avoidable with a modest work-around.

 

Quite simply, do not register animations that have great potential to be played inappropriately. If they aren't registered, DF can't play them.

 

I'd put foot rubs, most bound animations, and all furniture in this category. Those animations were made to be used as modder resources, and simply SLAL-ing them into sexlab results in silliness. You can probably not register any that have a male as the victim too, unless you have an expectation to use them

 

DD and DCL handle bound animations without recourse to SexLab registration, and Kimy advised against people registering other "bound" animations, as they do not use DD compatible positions and weren't made for DD restraints. Maybe, maybe not, but in either case, DD doesn't need you to register any bound animations if you use the filters.

 

What is also the case, is that very few mods that want to play a consensual animation consider excluding the bound tag. You're very likely to see inappropriate bound animations, with the devices missing, if you just register them to sexlab.

 

Spoiler

I played a game where I installed all my usual animations (but didn't register any) and found the only mod that had an issue was DF. Overall, I saw a lot less of inappropriate animations, and DD worked fine. However, now I have a more selective approach, where I'm careful about what animations I register.

 

The foot job animations are particularly prone to showing up when you can't use your "regular" holes, because they lack vaginal or anal tags. They are going to be actively selected in those cases - and DF doesn't have quite the same handling of chastity devices that DCL does. (Feels like this should be a library function in DD, and maybe it is, but how would anyone know without reading all the source?)

 

There may be some problems with DF's sexlab handling, regarding creatures... I'm not sure it's really handing any creature animations properly, or ever has. DF rarely plays creature animations correctly for me, and possibly has some issues assigning appropriate actors in appropriate slots. Yet I know those animations work for me, as SLAdventures seems to have no troubles with them. Slaverun and Whiterun Brothel also seemed to be fine. However, in DF, horses, particularly horses, simply don't animate.

 

Similar issues seem to crop up with rapes triggered by SLA, if you are crawling because of DF. They are intermittent in most cases. My suspicion in that it's an issue with FNIS use, and that something in DF gets FNIS into a slightly odd state on occasion.

 

In enslavement, DF hangs up completely and you lose your follower dialogs, if you don't have certain animations registered. I didn't isolate exactly which ones, but it was either group-sex animations, or creatures, or both. Group sex is most likely from glancing at the code, but it's possible that any attempt to use a rapist found by the "rapetime" routine can hang DF indefinitely if there's no registered animation for it - and that includes chickens, goats, cows, dogs and horses, which are all fair game to be found by that routine.

 

IMHO, it should only consider playable races as valid actors, because despite the name of the routine "rapetime" it's used for semi-consensual whoring, not so much for rapes, and the participation of chickens or dogs in that circumstance is fairly nonsensical.

[Reesewow]

7 hours ago, zupra said:

What i meant is that the follower is whoring out my pc for 50g and then she ends up giving just a footjob. I think the anal animations did work sometimes but not always. It was kinda immersion breaking. There's dialogues and everything between the follower and NPC. "i'm gonna fuck her hard" and then footjob heh. Imo the belt should be removed by the follower i mean who would pay 50g for that ?

 

I quess i could install the DCUL.

Ah, I assumed you were talking about sex events in general (not just the ones triggered by DF). 

 

I think your best solution is simply to disable the "ownership" belt deal entirely in the MCM menu - this is the deal that puts a full chastity belt on your character which your follower will occasionally remove to have sex with you.  The "denial" deal makes much more immersive sense combined with other DF sex events - the belt allows for anal animations, but the whole point of the deal is to have your character get into sex scenes while belted and build up her denial level (which affects the once-a-day dialogue to try to get an orgasm). 

 

I think the plug level 3 deal and the ownership chastity level 3 deal are set up to kinda be conflicting in intent and not designed to compliment each other (why would the follower cover a big chunk of your debt for exclusive use of your PC's pussy when she's selling it to any random NPC on the street for 50g?).  They don't conflict per say, but the dialogue won't make that much sense if you are running both of them at the same time.

[Reesewow]

39 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

There may be some problems with DF's sexlab handling, regarding creatures... I'm not sure it's really handing any creature animations properly, or ever has. DF rarely plays creature animations correctly for me, and possibly has some issues assigning appropriate actors in appropriate slots. Yet I know those animations work for me, as SLAdventures seems to have no troubles with them. Slaverun and Whiterun Brothel also seemed to be fine. However, in DF, horses, particularly horses, simply don't animate.

 

While there could for sure be some possible issues I haven't seen, I just wanted to mention that I've not had any issues with creature animations triggering and playing properly in DF up tho this point (which mainly means canine and horse animations).  Assuming you are referring to the stables game in regards to horse animation issues, possibly there could be some issues relating to how the mod detects a nearby horse in your load order (since I know that game has been sensitive to horse mods in the past).

 

Of course, I could also be lucky, but I've run through the creature-enabled Jarl game a few times, the horse game many times in the past, and have tested the newer creature enabled content added recently without issue.

 

Spoiler

New content being the very high level denial deal outcome.

 

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, Reesewow said:

Assuming you are referring to the stables game in regards to horse animation issues, possibly there could be some issues relating to how the mod detects a nearby horse in your load order (since I know that game has been sensitive to horse mods in the past).

I don't use any horse mods. At all. Unless you count MNC. And it's not just the DF pony game. It also happens when DF triggers "rapes" (e.g. enslavement whoring) when there are horses nearby.

 

Pretty much every time DF triggers a horse sex scene, the first one doesn't animate. The second one does. The third one doesn't, and so on.

 

Whereas, take out DF, put in Slaverun (a much heavier scripting load) and horse animation works every single time without fail.

 

 

A perusal of the source code of the two respective mods gives a clue as to where the differences (and likely cause of the problems) lie. I'll leave that to interested parties to investigate further.

 

I know not everyone has this. Maybe it's specific to a particular version of CF/MNC, which still get updated a lot.

 

Spoiler

 

Just like ... and this is a different issue ... not everyone has the  (excessive rapid) "bouncing" from crawling either, which can also impact sex scenes. I think everyone sees a bit of bounce now and again, when they are on an IK threshold, or shifting back and forth over some collision hump (popping up onto the bar in an inn for example) but with DF crawling, I can see this when there's nothing around to cause it, but don't see it in SD+.

 

It might have something to do with physics (outside chance) which people often have set up differently, even if they have the same mods. Or it might be new to the latest-and-greatest FNIS. Or... Could be a lot of things. I can live with it, it's just ... relevant ... to a discussion of animation issues, that's all.

 

The bounce I'm describing here is where the character pops up and down between being on the ground and being in the air, at about waist height. This happens rapidly (though not every frame), and with a slight randomness to it.

 

 

[Lupine00]

In the case where I was losing my DF dialogs entirely in enslavement (which is catastrophic, until you know that there's a completely non-intuitive way to reset it), the responses were either "enslavement is supposed to be hard" or "I don't get that problem".

 

But there was a clear and distinct cause, that had nothing to do with what mods were loaded. In this case what animations were registered.

DF never listed the registration of those animations as a requirement, or even hinted that they were necessary.

 

DF could have played those animations without registration, and as it relies on them, it could (possibly) have arranged to include them.

 

 

But my point here, is that just because somebody has a problem with a mod, and you don't, doesn't mean there isn't a good reason for it.

 

I'm never happy with what amounts to "uh, because Skyrim," or "it's just voodoo."

 

It may have nothing to do a game being misconfigured in some way, or mods mis-sorted, or their conflicts badly merged...

(And realistically, LOOT gets some stuff seriously wrong).

May well not even be a mod bug, or not the mod that seems to be the cause. Quite likely this is not an issue caused by DF, but simply revealed by it.

 

 

 

But if we don't dig into these things, the answers don't show up. I only found the answer to the enslavement dialog issue by wasting evening and evening taking mods in and out and screwing around with settings trying to figure out what caused it. In the end, I would never have found the cause if I hadn't looked at the source.

 

 

So, I'm still looking for clues on horse animations, and still looking for clues on the bounce thing. Chances are most people don't have those issues.

 

Am I unusual in running Zaz 8 plus, or latest FNIS? Or do people without these issues have both?