Devious Followers (8 June 2019)

[Krynn]

as I said, there are a few other bugs, actually little things, but I think the mod is absolutely great and even made myself alone for a companion and I would be very happy about updates and or even more deals!

 

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wie gesagt, es sind noch ein paar andere bugs, eigentlich kleinigkeiten, aber ich finde den mod absolut super und habe mir sogar selbst alleine dafür einen eigenen begleiter erstellt und würde mich sehr über updates und oder noch mehr deals freuen!

[Krynn]

thumbs up for the artist Lozeak!

 

[Krynn]

natürlich auch für CGI und seinen Künsten!!! (sonst meckert er wieder) !!! *grins*

[Krynn]

Not only did I rebuild this whore armor, but I also replaced all other items.
Basically it does not matter which device you wear, the main thing is the agreement.

It seems to me almost like maria eden, but with less,... much less crashes in the game.

[Krynn]

with me at least it is so that the fast travel after the naked deal in the city stops working.
I tried to delete the crap cursed loot from kimy, but then my whole save does not work anymore.
I only ever get the message that the person you were looking for was last seen there.
The savegame editor does not really help either.

 

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bei mir zumindest ist es so, das das schnelle reisen nach dem nackt deal in der stadt nicht mehr funktioniert.
ich habe versucht den scheiss cursed loot von kimy zu löschen, aber dann funktioniert mein ganzes save nicht mehr.
ich bekomme immer nur die meldung das die gesuchte person da und dort zuletzt gesehen wurde.
der savegame editor hilft dabei auch nicht wirklich.

 

[Lupine00]

I never had DCL do anything to fast travel that it wasn't asked to.

SL Survival on the other hand, sometimes seems to leave it disabled when it shouldn't.

SL Adventures might have some impact also.

 

SLS has a setting to "optimize" the fast travel disabled case, and also blocks fast travel in and out of walled towns due to toll collectors.

You can fast travel to the stable of a walled town and then run in, but you can't fast travel in or out of the town directly.

 

Once you are at the point of save cleaning, you are usually better off abandoning the save game stream and starting over.

 

DCL should likely uninstall reasonably well just with removal, because it doesn't use perma-running scripts, or scripts on the player, it uses single registrations and aliases.

 

I have occasionally done FREE ME, stop everything in DCL Debug, save, quit, remove mod, reload, save, quit, put in new version, load ... and it worked pretty much ok. I'm not saying it's safe, but you can squeeze a few more days out of the save at least.

 

OTOH, if you have DF soft integrated with your DCL, it might screw up DF because you could have been using DCL specific items.

 

Also, delete the wrong script with save cleaner and all kinds of weird stuff breaks.

 

 

But realistically, it sounds like the save was hosed before you pulled DCL out of it. Probably time to go through the stages of grieving and make a new game.

[CGi]

4 hours ago, Krynn said:

natürlich auch für CGI und seinen Künsten!!! (sonst meckert er wieder) !!! *grins*

MÖÖÖP! Falsch.

Lozeak hat die Mod erstellt und Du hast nur über diese geschrieben.
Bin da nicht involviert.

[Krynn]

13 hours ago, CGi said:

MÖÖÖP! Falsch.

Lozeak hat die Mod erstellt und Du hast nur über diese geschrieben.
Bin da nicht involviert.

 

Najaaaaa die Übersetzungen schon!

[Lupine00]

I found out what causes the enslaved whoring sequence to hang and block the main DF dialog.

 

It is, as I thought, a blockage in rapetime. It happens when you don't have animations registered that it wants to use for its group sex, or creature rapes.

 

It's possible (for example) not to have bothered to register any group rapes, but rapetime will attempt to run a threesome.

Similar issues if you've enabled creatures but haven't registered any particular animations for them.

 

I'd been suspicious of it since I looked at the code, because I only ever saw single NPC rapes, but observed that it attempts to use the largest groups it can find participants for - whether there are actually registered animations for them or not. 

 

To avoid the problem, ensure you have animations for groups and all likely creatures installed and registered into SexLab.

You'll get raped by chickens a lot, but it's better than losing the ability to communicate with your follower.

[Lupine00]

A thought on Willpower.

 

This bottoms out very easily (as we all know) and so you will have zero willpower soon after you get a level 3 deal, or likely within (RL) minutes of enslavement.

Even if willpower dropped less easily than it does (which it should), in most cases a PC would still already have low will before entering slavery.

 

Thus, the PC's willpower is no different after months of enslavement and abuse than it was after the first hour.

They are "broken" from the start, and cannot get any more broken than that. There is no narrative progression or gameplay progression.

In most cases the only measure of freedom is debt.

 

The flip side to this is that after several in-game weeks of enslavement, once you buy out, (assuming you had few deals) you will recover all your willpower very quickly, and the entire enslavement has no narrative continuity.

 

A character who has spent months crawling, collared, locked in crippling bondage, and raped dozens, or hundreds of times - quite possibly gang-raped by half the population of Riften in one session - just forgets it and moves on as if it never happened once they've managed to get the payout money together. They relationship with the follower also has no memory of the past events.

 

 

As a "lazy" way around this, how about letting Willpower go negative? Ensure any explicit tests against == 0 are <= 0 instead, and just let it go negative...

 

But also modify the willpower removal rule, so it's much much harder to lose below 0, and cap it at some obvious value like -10, so it still has a defined range.

 

Thus, below 0 it could be viewed more like "compliance" than willpower - with the possibility that the PC may actively engage in her own subjugation. See Slaverun for examples  

 

A further nice addition would be ways (gameplay challenges) to increase Willpower other than sleeping, but they'd have to be difficult, and losing Willpower at low levels would have to be much more difficult, for this to have any meaning.

[Lupine00]

On buying out of slavery in Gold Control Mode...

 

In current DF versions, you are always in gold control mode when enslaved.

 

This means that the only way to get out of slavery is to vend enough stuff in one place to meet the buyout amount (likely at least 4000, depending on what you set).

 

You can have 22,000 in credit, a buyout of 4000 (or whatever you set it to) and still have the follower tell you that you have no money, and you stay in slavery.

 

Unless you get 4000+ (for example) in your inventory, you cannot buy out.

This is only practically possible in Riften and Windhelm where there are enough traders in one cell. You cannot buy out in Whiterun, you simply cannot. This seems a bit arbitrary.

While this creates a welcome extra challenge to leaving slavery, it's a somewhat odd obstacle, that doesn't feel well designed in how it integrates with the rest of the mod.

 

 

However, if you have 4000 (nominally) in credit, slavery should simply meet the buyout goal automatically.

 

Assuming you meet the credit criteria (nominally 4000 for slavery, 1000 for gold control) then... 

...the chance, on any given day, to exit either slavery OR gold control should be derived from Willpower.

 

i.e. If you have at least the required value in credit, the follower decides on wake-up whether they'll let you out of gold control or slavery, with a chance modified by willpower.

So, at willpower 0, you might have a 5% chance to leave gold control on any given day, and at willpower 10, an 80% chance.

 

And the same for the exit gold control allowed today chance, it should depend on Willpower, not be completely random as it is now.

 

It's frustrating that a willpower 10 character currently gets treated the same as a willpower 0 one in both cases.

 

Of course, a slave is probably going to have willpower 0 anyway...

But imagine if willpower was harder to lose and had a bit more bottom end (as suggested above), then this would be meaningful. A slave with -10 willpower could have only a 5% chance to be given freedom if they have the credit, on any given day, while a slave with 0 willpower might have 20%, and a (yes, admittedly unlikely) slave with 10 willpower, 100% chance.

[CGi]

12 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

On buying out of slavery in Gold Control Mode...

This mode was written as a loose/loose situation which needs good planing to have a chance to buy out of it.
So in my opinion it works exactly as advertised because you can get out of it one day or another by being sold of (if enabled) in case you didn't manage.

[Lupine00]

A thought on the intent of slavery/enslavement mode...

 

This exists primarily as a stick to ensure you will take deals. Assuming you aren't in endless mode, then if you get debt and don't pay it off, and don't take deals, then you get enslaved.

 

This is a pure gameplay purpose. Without enslavement there is no reason to take the deals, and enslavement (thus) ought to be worse than a full set of level 3 deals.

 

I'm not sure that it is worse though. But...

 

When you break enslavement down, it's basically like an assortment of deals:

 

1) collared in town

2) crawling in town (possibly beyond that, depends if you can be bothered to ask for the collar to be removed, personally, I don't bother)

3) naked except in dungeons

4) bondage boots except in dungeons

5) bondage mittens except in combat and dungeons

 

You could, quite feasibly just re-arrange the deal system (perhaps with level 4 deals that only unlock after you have nine deals) so that all these deals are part of it, and enslavement didn't exist.

 

This would be of great benefit in endless mode, which could use the extra ability to punish the player, but leaves non-endless-mode lacking an incentive to pay the follower or take deals.

 

It would also allow the construction of multiple "custom slavery" scenarios, simply made of deal-sets, where each enslavement varies. Great for SS outcomes.

(By custom, I don't mean precisely player defined, but player does get to limit what deals are possible).

 

Follower dialog options would thus pivot on whether you have "level 4" deals or however you want to implement them, rather than being all or nothing.

 

However, it leaves non-endless mode lacking a failure punishment... Well, what if the failure punishment was simply one of the deal-based enslavement scenarios? Endless mode is thus "incremental" mode, and non-endless "harsh penalties" mode.

 

So, in non-endless mode, if you fail to pay the follower/make deals, you are forced into a set of deals, which will include some, or all of the highly punishing "enslavement/level 4" deals and have to pay them off, normally. Basically, one of the "custom slavery" scenarios from above.

 

Benefits:

• streamlines the logic in the game, retains all existing functions, but with everything done via deals and no special case slavery
• extends range of deals (more "top end" on deals)
• extends number of deals
• extends variety of slavery outcomes
• creates genuinely harsh stick for failing to pay - if you want it
• in future, adding more deals extends enslavement as well as deals mode
• single way to buy out of any problem - deal buyout cost

[Lupine00]

5 hours ago, CGi said:

This mode was written as a loose/loose situation which needs good planing to have a chance to buy out of it.
So in my opinion it works exactly as advertised because you can get out of it one day or another by being sold of (if enabled) in case you didn't manage.

As advertised, and well designed aren't really the same thing. It's currently a bit silly.

 

It ignores willpower.

It ignores credit.

It's oddly locational.

It's very easy once you understand how it works.

 

Also, if you set the buyout limit too high, it is simply impossible to buyout. If some NPCs in Riften and Windhelm are dead, even the default is impossible. And yes, you can reduce the limit, but discovering that mid-play and having to "cheat" your way out of the scenario leaves a bad taste.

[CGi]

19 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

As advertised, and well designed aren't really the same thing. It's currently a bit silly.

 

It ignores willpower.

It ignores credit.

It's oddly locational.

It's very easy once you understand how it works.

in my opinion willpower has no impact anymore once your character is in this state because being owned means to do what you're asked to do. Not more and not less.
So the only thing that could be added is mouthing off to make the situation even more impossible to get out of.

i don't see how "credits" are ignored and that you figured out how to easily get out of it means it's well enough written that players can find the way out which isn't as obvious to everyone because it's pretty much based on location or plain better planing, being mod friendly in the process (additional player houses, additional storage or EFF f.e.).

[Hex Bolt]

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

You could, quite feasibly just re-arrange the deal system (perhaps with level 4 deals that only unlock after you have nine deals) so that all these deals are part of it, and enslavement didn't exist.

 

This would be of great benefit in endless mode, which could use the extra ability to punish the player, but leaves non-endless-mode lacking an incentive to pay the follower or take deals.

 

It would also allow the construction of multiple "custom slavery" scenarios, simply made of deal-sets, where each enslavement varies. Great for SS outcomes.

(By custom, I don't mean precisely player defined, but player does get to limit what deals are possible).

I've experimented with this, and found that the existing system supports it pretty well if I don't mind taking things into my own hands (making a custom slavery mode that is "player defined", which I realize is not what you meant Lupine00, as per the last sentence quoted above).

 

So for a Simple Slavery outcome, I set that to normal (only debt) and manually adjusted the debt level if I didn't think it was high enough.  Using save & reload, I asked for deals until I got the combination I wanted (or I could have decided to take x number of deals and accepted whatever I got).  I set the deal duration to 7 days and the early buyout multiplier to 20, so I'd be a prisoner to those deals for a week even if I managed to pay off the debt.  I had endless mode enabled because I find the mod's actual "enslavement" to be too painful (which it's intended to be).  For me, this was a very satisfactory custom slavery scenario.  In exchange for being rescued from the auction, I had to pay off my value plus interest, and labor under a set of deals. 

 

The existing system with all its options and sliders is quite flexible.  I'm sure that a custom slavery mode could be automated, but I'd guess that it would be a lot of work to build and test. 

[Reesewow]

2 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

When you break enslavement down, it's basically like an assortment of deals:

 

1) collared in town

2) crawling in town (possibly beyond that, depends if you can be bothered to ask for the collar to be removed, personally, I don't bother)

3) naked except in dungeons

4) bondage boots except in dungeons

5) bondage mittens except in combat and dungeons

 

You could, quite feasibly just re-arrange the deal system (perhaps with level 4 deals that only unlock after you have nine deals) so that all these deals are part of it, and enslavement didn't exist.

 

This would be of great benefit in endless mode, which could use the extra ability to punish the player, but leaves non-endless-mode lacking an incentive to pay the follower or take deals.

 

It would also allow the construction of multiple "custom slavery" scenarios, simply made of deal-sets, where each enslavement varies. Great for SS outcomes.

(By custom, I don't mean precisely player defined, but player does get to limit what deals are possible).

 

Follower dialog options would thus pivot on whether you have "level 4" deals or however you want to implement them, rather than being all or nothing.

 

However, it leaves non-endless mode lacking a failure punishment... Well, what if the failure punishment was simply one of the deal-based enslavement scenarios? Endless mode is thus "incremental" mode, and non-endless "harsh penalties" mode.

 

So, in non-endless mode, if you fail to pay the follower/make deals, you are forced into a set of deals, which will include some, or all of the highly punishing "enslavement/level 4" deals and have to pay them off, normally. Basically, one of the "custom slavery" scenarios from above.

 

Benefits:

• streamlines the logic in the game, retains all existing functions, but with everything done via deals and no special case slavery
• extends range of deals (more "top end" on deals)
• extends number of deals
• extends variety of slavery outcomes
• creates genuinely harsh stick for failing to pay - if you want it
• in future, adding more deals extends enslavement as well as deals mode
• single way to buy out of any problem - deal buyout cost

That sounds like a great idea to me - I *never* have allowed my character to be enslaved other than trying it out early on, so for me the mode is basically just a deterrent from ignoring debt.  The main reasons I haven't been enslaved are:

 

• I enjoy the give and take of taking deals and digging my way back out of them, so I have no issues grabbing a deal quickly if I screw up and go over limit and see the "your follower is angry" message.  With so many deals available there isn't really many situations where you have no option but to go over enslavement debt multiple times (assuming reasonable MCM settings in relation to gameplay).
• I don't enjoy the way enslavement takes over my game (as intended and designed).  So it is super effective as a deterrent.  The nudity/mittens/crawling aren't the deterrent for me, the main deterrent is the forced march back to town for the public prostitution scene.  IMO this isn't a bad thing necessarily, as the mode is doing its job as a fail state to be avoided, like losing a level in and old-school MMO (but with the option of cheesing it with a reload or even a mod reset if you truly want to avoid the punishment - but you'll know you cheated)

 

I would however like to see some of that enslavement content in game without needing to go into enslavement status.  Especially the crawling animation - since Lozeak added it into the base mod I haven't actually tried it out due to avoiding enslavement mode, but I'd love it to show up as part of a deal or deal alternate option (I think crawling could make a good alternate stage to the SLUT deal, or a pet-play based deal involving the tail plugs).  Transforming mittens could also be a cool hardcore deal option.  I think "level 4" hardcore deals could be something that would work well as a deal that shows up only after a certain number of deals are already in place, similarly to how the time extension deal options show up.

 

The idea of building a "custom" enslaved mode is a cool one, as it builds on the strength of the deals system.  With such a system a player could set up their "enslaved" status to be exactly what they want - for example taking level 3 Slut deal for nudity, public humiliation and town bondage, and the level 3 plug deal for forced prostitution, plus whatever other deals they want for bondage items they'd like to be required to wear. 

 

It also does match up with how the game dialogue treats a PC who has many deals and low willpower - they are basically treated as a slave in almost all respects with little say in the matter when the follower wants to do something.  Especially based on the dialogue of the Jarl game.  Repeated failure to pay could just be a fast-track to that status of multiple deals and low willpower - with the player being abandoned/sold as a ultimate failure state... but if you end up there either your mod settings are probably to extreme or you ended up that way intentionally.

 

[Leeyds4LLTS]

I have been trying 1.71 and seem to be missing the dialog "Please help me"  where you can ask people for food, lactacid, or gold, followed by having to do some humiliating activity that brings down the PC's will power.  This dialog choice has disappeared from my game, and I can't find any way to decrease my will power.  My PC has Serana as follower and has been quite fun, but I am missing the "taking advantage" activities that come with low will power.  Suggestions?  Is this caused by having Serana as a follower?  I don't get this option from any NPC in the game now.

[Lupine00]

5 hours ago, CGi said:

i don't see how "credits" are ignored and that you figured out how to easily get out of it means it's well enough written that players can find the way out which isn't as obvious to everyone because it's pretty much based on location or plain better planing, being mod friendly in the process (additional player houses, additional storage or EFF f.e.).

Your "gold control" credit is immaterial as long as you're not actually in debt.

Suppose you are 57,000 gold credit with the follower, and the buyout is 4000.

If you don't have that 4000 in your inventory, you can't buyout.

 

That 57,000 of credit is irrelevant, the follower simply won't count it as contributing to slavery buyout, because it's not in your inventory, the follower already has it. Funnily enough, if you are a bit short of cash in your inventory, you could ask the follower for more gold ... oh but in enslaved mode good luck with that.

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, Leeyds4LLTS said:

I have been trying 1.71 and seem to be missing the dialog "Please help me"

I think that's actually from Sexlab Survival, not DF. I believe that, SLS just happens to integrate with Willpower, so it seems like a DF feature.

[Lupine00]

12 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

I find the mod's actual "enslavement" to be too painful (which it's intended to be).  For me, this was a very satisfactory custom slavery scenario.  In exchange for being rescued from the auction, I had to pay off my value plus interest, and labor under a set of deals.

Once you figure how to work around the various bugs that the current enslavement has, it's not hard at all... Though it will depend on your follower and your character build to some extent. I'm using Disparity and a Breton, with all the bells and whistles, including skill rate modifiers for class skills, so a character who is as quite fragile, with Immersive Creatures cranked up to max, plus More Bandit Camps, and various Wenches mods. The Wench mods make combat hard, but make loot plentiful, but even without those drops there'd still be enough loot. It's possible to get overwhelmed by Hateful Wenches quite easily. My mage has to equip heavy armor and sacrifice any mana bonuses just to survive, but that's to be expected.

 

The hard part is Skooma Whore. You get forced to drink a lot, and a normal enslavement also results in extreme levels of addiction. If you don't keep on the sauce, you'll be completely crippled. Another side effect was that MME breasts are getting a burden due to being forced to drink lactacid. The SW debuffs are the worst though, but if you drink more skooma you can get past the problem for a bit, just have to work fast and go back to loot later when the skooma has worn off.

 

Initially, dungeons were an utter failure for me, because of a "feature" that can cause the follower to immediately decide to go home. If you avoid triggering that, then it's just a trick of stacking up high-value loot on the follower until you have enough to sell in Riften for a slavery buyout. With the mitts, you can't loot outside a dungeon, so you have to do everything in dungeon areas. Also had a LOT of problems with the whoring, but once that was overcome it became a non-issue, and now can get through that quickly too.

 

Because enslavement doesn't add debt unless you break the rules, you just take your time and work through it. It's not hard at all. I think that a bunch of level 3 deals is trickier because it's easier to get into more trouble with some level 3 deals.

 

Now... If you want hard, install Skyrim More Immersive Zones with the wenches and IC, and cry as you're one shot killed by basic draugr over and over, even though you're level 30. In that setup, enslavement is neither here nor there.

[CGi]

9 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Your "gold control" credit is immaterial as long as you're not actually in debt.

Suppose you are 57,000 gold credit with the follower, and the buyout is 4000.

If you don't have that 4000 in your inventory, you can't buyout.

 

That 57,000 of credit is irrelevant, the follower simply won't count it as contributing to slavery buyout, because it's not in your inventory, the follower already has it. Funnily enough, if you are a bit short of cash in your inventory, you could ask the follower for more gold ... oh but in enslaved mode good luck with that.

As i wrote: it's supposed to be a loose/loose situation.
So when my follower starts managing my toons money i simply store every single coin my toon is allowed to have at home and in less then a week i got enough savings to pay her of. i just have to make sure to not switch cells so it's not taken away. That's all there is to it.

[Hex Bolt]

4 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Because enslavement doesn't add debt unless you break the rules, you just take your time and work through it. It's not hard at all. I think that a bunch of level 3 deals is trickier because it's easier to get into more trouble with some level 3 deals.

I think we're pretty much in agreement, but I said "painful", not "hard", mainly because of the mittens.  It does seem odd that debt is actually much easier to manage while "enslaved" than when not.  I agree with your point a bit earlier that one should be able to pay the Price Of Freedom with accumulated credit (I assume that it's an oversight that the mod requires the amount to be in the your inventory).  I'm also a big fan of the Disparity mod (with all the modifiers enabled); I won't play without it anymore. 

[Lupine00]

11 hours ago, CGi said:

As i wrote: it's supposed to be a loose/loose situation.

CGi, you aren't reading what I'm writing at all. You just repeat this phrase as if it means something.

 

If you have something to explain, or an argument to make, please make it.

Please don't parrot some vague shorthand that alludes to something Lozeak said that isn't pertinent to this detail.

 

 

Could you perhaps explain what you mean by "loose/loose" [sic] in this context, and why it's good game design?

I presume you mean "lose/lose"? But it's an easy mistake to make.

 

 

Can you explain how it is even relevant to the issue of leaving enslavement being such a fragile, easily broken mechanic?

There is no time that fragile behaviour in a mod is a benefit. Game play shouldn't pivot on so many variables, any of which flips the situation from easy to hopeless with nothing in between.

 

 

I think it's obvious that the existing behaviour is an accident that resulted from the imposition of gold control on-top of the enslavement buyout mechanic without deep consideration of the ramifications. I don't believe Lozeak intended to add a mechanic were it was impossible to leave enslavement without "cheating" if the configured buyout was too much. It certainly didn't work anything like this prior to gold control.

 

I don't mean this unkindly, it's a minor oversight that has easily remedied consequences.

I'd much rather have gold control as it is than not have it because he didn't have time to modify the enslavement buyout code.

It's not game breaking. It just means that in some cases, the player has to "cheat themselves" one way or another, or they will literally NEVER be able to leave slavery.

 

Or, in the lesser case, they could decide to roll with a very awkward situation, and spend days of play levelling up speech and dumping perks into it so that the merchants have more money, finally enabling a buyout. That's sort of ok ... but it's quite odd to expect the player to do this, and I doubt it was genuinely a design intention. Or did Lozeak want you to just exploit gold control with containers? I doubt it.

 

 

Now maybe, CGi, you think this was intended, and that you'd be upset if it were changed? But would you? Would you really prefer this to stay exactly as it is? Forever... And have it enshrined as a mechanic on the front page? At least if that was the case, people would be more careful what slavery buyout they set. Recently I set 11,000 ... I'm not sure you could reach that even with a full set of invested merchants in Riften. And any change to gold control could have further undesirable impacts on leaving enslavement, which has created an unwanted binding between the mechanics, making maintenance and tuning of them harder.

 

 

Personally, I find it a bit of an odd imposition as a requirement for leaving slavery. One might say, colloquially, "random".

If you just happen to have set the buyout cost a few gold too high, or if some NPCs happen to be dead in the wrong place...

 

 

As far as good design practice goes, a mod's behaviour should not pivot so critically on whether a particular merchant is still alive in your game.

(OK, I won't get into the issue of that Khajit dude that gets all your items being dead).

 

It's too sharp a division of outcomes, based on something that is not part of the mod, and simply saying enslavement is supposed to be punishing doesn't change that.

It's really quite exhausting that I have to explain such a basic element of game design. Fragile mechanics are mechanics that break under the slightest of stress.

 

Why would anyone insist that it's a beneficial feature that the amount you configure to leave enslavement is critical to whether you can ever leave or not.

One gold too high and you're screwed. One gold lower and it's almost as easy as if it were 3000 gold lower.

It certainly doesn't warn you of that when you set it.

 

 

But read what I'm saying CGi, enslavement is easy to leave.

Very easy. Unless you trigger one of several bugs, and then it's pretty broken, and it can be impossible.

This minor "feature" is one of the easy ones to work around, but that doesn't make it a benefit.

 

I even have some doubts that you have actually played an enslavement escape in a 1.706+ version of the mod, with gold control enabled, or any of the other shenanigans, and even greater doubts that you have played it repeatedly. It feels a lot like you're speculating based on second-hand information.

 

Trust me here. I know what I'm talking about when it comes to playing in enslavement mode. I have played it. In depth, and at length. There are worse obstacles than this, for sure. Like when I had no dialog options to talk to the follower, let alone buy out. Or when the follower wouldn't let me into dungeons without instantly chaining me up in extreme bondage. I have played it again. And again. And again. I am at the point I can do it in my sleep.

 

 

So trying to create the impression that I'm asking for it to be easier with this patronising "lose/lose" thing, is disingenuous.

 

I am not trying to make it easier, and I have never wanted it easier.

 

 

But I want it to be fun in its own way. Putting things into a mod that are deliberately created as chores is absurd.

This is a game. Played for entertainment. It is not supposed to be a chore. It is not supposed to be boring.

 

Difficult things aren't necessarily boring, but futile ones are.

And having to cheat yourself and change values to get out of a situation is a trivial inconvenience, but it can undermine the long-term enjoyment of the experience.

 

11 hours ago, CGi said:

So when my follower starts managing my toons money i simply store every single coin my toon is allowed to have at home and in less then a week i got enough savings to pay her of. i just have to make sure to not switch cells so it's not taken away. That's all there is to it.

Sure, you can also use one of several other dumb exploits to work around this too, but none of them look like good "by design" mechanisms; they simply exploit holes in how gold control works.

 

e.g. You don't even need to have a home, or save money. Just let the credit build up, then find any container. Put your money in it. Talk to the follower about gold. Follower adjusts gold. Put more money in container. Rinse. Repeat. Once you have the buyout price in the container, pull it out. It's still blindingly obvious that you're cheating around the gold control mechanic. The existence of a work-around doesn't dismiss the existence of a bug.

 

 

Perhaps the biggest issue here is that it is in no way obvious to a player that the mechanics are working the way they are. They could easily spend a long time in gold control, expecting the follower to let them leave it - when what they actually have to do is know exactly how it works at a low level and cheat with containers, or alter the cost. With so many other bugs, I wasn't sure that buyout was working at all. It was something of an outside shot that I decided to try and get the buyout cost into my inventory, because there is nothing intuitive at all about it working that way.

 

But it seems that the CGi position is that players should enjoy puzzling out erratic mod behaviour, and if they waste days and get sick of it and dump the mod, it's their own fault because they were supposed to know that slavery was a "lose/lose". Which they might not know either, because there's nothing to tell you that apart from this forum.

[CGi]

21 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

CGi, you aren't reading what I'm writing at all. You just repeat this phrase as if it means something.

1st: it does mean something. Why would i waste my time writing something i don't mean or that has no meaning?
2nd: Let me put it straight - Some of your complaints are valid and some are nitpicking but most of your suggestions would mean a major rewrite of the mod, resulting in a way more complex mod and Lozeak already said that he doesn't want DF to become overly complicated.

 

So for simplicities sake, deal with what you call a glitch and just don't use it. You already found other ways around the "bug".

You want to DF to be perfect to a degree that it would be the only mod of it's kind.